I think he's struggling with structure and how to actually run a team. I think some experience here would help.
Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.
- Thread starter DeJesus Built My Hotrod
- Start date
After spending how many years observing the best ever from inside? How much will he learn from a coaching consultant that he couldn't learn from BB? I don't think it's a matter of knowing how so much as a matter of being able.
Eh, he'd been a coach for four seasons, there's only so much you learn from watching your superiors with limited opportunities to do it yourself. Which is a big part of the reason as to why I disliked the hire. There was always a reasonable chance this could happen, it's a whole lot to figure out in real time if you've never even been a coordinator or have no context for how other teams operate.
The point was that a management consultant isn't going to be of much help. He was also a coach for 5 years before becoming HC, the same as DeMeco Ryans in Houston (though he was a DC for 2 years prior).
Anyway, in trying to figure out what his actual coaching titles were over those years (which I could not find, thanks BB), I happened to read about how close he was to Steve Belichick and how they basically operated as the DC coordinator together. I knew about the last part, but not how close they were. I wonder why Steve was not retained and how much it would have helped to have someone like that around?
The University of Washington defensive coordinator and son of the most successful coach in NFL history broke from the New England Patriots last offseason. Belichick could have remained on Jerod Mayo’s staff in Foxboro, but he opted for a new challenge and followed Jedd Fisch to the Pacific Northwest.
“I wasn’t eager to leave (the Patriots) or anything like that,” Belichick told The Athletic on Thursday after practice at Husky Stadium. “You just keep your options open. Stuff happens. We all have different reasons for (taking different jobs), but it just felt right.”
Belichick was on Bill Belichick’s staff in New England for 12 seasons, including the 2020 campaign with Fisch. The pair remained close after Fisch took over at Arizona, and Fisch needed someone to run his defense this year when Washington hired him.
Steve Belichick liked the opportunity, so he jumped at the offer. And although he could have stayed with Mayo — like his brother, Brian, who remains the Patriots’ safeties coach — he decided the time was right to start anew.
“It kind of happened organically,” Belichick said. “It’s cool to be out here. It’s weird how it happened. Everything fell into place, and I’m pumped to be out here."
https://www.nytimes.com/athletic/5675819/2024/08/02/steve-belichick-patriots-washington-huskies/
I'm a big fan of Steve's and think he'd absolutely be an upgrade to this staff if he were DC. He and Flores were the best playcallers they've had at that spot since Romeo left, by a mile.
The whole appeal of Mayo as a head coach for Kraft was that he wouldn’t do things the way Bill did. It may not be that he didn’t learn anything working under BB, but that in his attempt to do things differently he‘s gone too extreme in the other direction. Allowing the players more freedom to express their opinions than they ever had under BB is one thing, but Mayo has clearly failed to set clear boundaries so it’s become a loose ship.
Like the man in my avatar, Mayo’s approach to management seems to be just doing the opposite of what Bill would have done.
Like the man in my avatar, Mayo’s approach to management seems to be just doing the opposite of what Bill would have done.
I think what bothered Kraft was the power structure of the organization and not necessarily Bill's demeanor/way of dealing with the players and media. I'm sure that played a part, but I don't think it was the main issue.
I'm guessing one problem Mayo is running up against is...
He ran defensive meetings, players love him, he was the guy they went to when they wanted someone to go to Bill about something.....
But it's easy to be the good guy that players love when you have the Headmaster/Boss above you doing the tough work, making the hard decisions and laying down the law. A lot of "player's coach" guys fail because they don't know how to be the boss, and they don't realize that their previous success was driven in part by the very existence of the bad cop to their good. Mayo could let his defensive guys stay loose, enjoy themselves and not micromanage them.... because at the end of the day if they fucked up Bill would bring down the hammer. This year's team feels like a class with a substitute teacher... as the year has gone on they've realized... there is no real consequence. You miss your assignment 10 times... nothing... so why not just go for the sack, if you get to 8 sacks maybe you get a better contract somewhere, maybe you hit an incentive. Aren't any incentives for playing good contain. If you're the guy getting screwed... well no reason not to go to the press about it, because otherwise nothing changes, and the coach isn't going to punish you for it.
He ran defensive meetings, players love him, he was the guy they went to when they wanted someone to go to Bill about something.....
But it's easy to be the good guy that players love when you have the Headmaster/Boss above you doing the tough work, making the hard decisions and laying down the law. A lot of "player's coach" guys fail because they don't know how to be the boss, and they don't realize that their previous success was driven in part by the very existence of the bad cop to their good. Mayo could let his defensive guys stay loose, enjoy themselves and not micromanage them.... because at the end of the day if they fucked up Bill would bring down the hammer. This year's team feels like a class with a substitute teacher... as the year has gone on they've realized... there is no real consequence. You miss your assignment 10 times... nothing... so why not just go for the sack, if you get to 8 sacks maybe you get a better contract somewhere, maybe you hit an incentive. Aren't any incentives for playing good contain. If you're the guy getting screwed... well no reason not to go to the press about it, because otherwise nothing changes, and the coach isn't going to punish you for it.
A lot of this feels right. It’s kind of like when Carroll took over for Parcells, guys like McGinest took advantage of Pete’s lack of discipline (to the point of insubordination)
But I think there’s also a question of whether or not Mayo even is a good coach. Being a likable guy (to his LB group) and being a former player who understands schemes (etc) isn’t the same as being able to draw up and install gameplans or manage a staff of people or coach up guys who aren’t LB’s
Of course, I think the biggest flaw with Mayo is his inexperience led to them having a weak and inexperienced coaching staff around him. Perhaps things would be looking different had they been able to land a coordinator with gravitas
This seems right to me.
Mayo seems like he wants to be a CEO/leader/motivator of men type ala Dan Campbell, which is fine, but Campbell has very good coordinators around him (he also has more talent but that’s a separate discussion).
AVP and Covington just don’t seem like they are strong enough at what they do to elevate a first time head coach who doesn’t call plays for either side of the ball
Dan Campbell also had a bigger network of coaches he probably worked with as well during his time with the Dolphins and Saints. Mayo has none of that. His hire is a major risk and one that’s likely to set this organization back even further.
I don't give a shit what KJ Fucking Osborn thinks. If he wants to be traded, Wolf should trade his ass yesterday. He adds zero value to this roster.
Owners with big egos have moved on from coaches after a single failed season. Locally, nobody ever confused John Henry (Bobby Valentine) or Jeremy Jacobs (Dave Lewis) as having small egos. So, it could happen if the Pats finish 1-16 and in complete disarray. FWIW, both aforementioned moves worked out spectacularly for the home town team.
But, for now, this is Mayo's problem to solve. Of course, making it harder for Mayo is the possibility that players such as Uche, Jennings, Jonathon Jones, Wise, or Bourne could be traded for draft capital.
It's possible that Kraft has sent out feelers to potential candidates via unofficial back channels already. Or will in the near future if the team reaches 1-10. That's when the real (non-Minnahane) rumors will start.
But, for now, this is Mayo's problem to solve. Of course, making it harder for Mayo is the possibility that players such as Uche, Jennings, Jonathon Jones, Wise, or Bourne could be traded for draft capital.
It's possible that Kraft has sent out feelers to potential candidates via unofficial back channels already. Or will in the near future if the team reaches 1-10. That's when the real (non-Minnahane) rumors will start.
Bob Sochi made a good point on T&H this morning. He said that the guys on the team who have been around for a while -- Jonathan Jones, Bourne, Henry, etc. -- have been aligned with Mayo's messaging. But it's the new(er) guys who don't have much, if any connection to the old ways who are popping off -- Polk, Osborn and the like.
To me, that suggests that Mayo is not creating a culture of accountability and unity. Rather it's the holdovers who are trying to maintain the old culture, and the new guys aren't adopting it.
To me, that suggests that Mayo is not creating a culture of accountability and unity. Rather it's the holdovers who are trying to maintain the old culture, and the new guys aren't adopting it.
Not really sure I agree with this. Polk isn't really popping off, he said he wasn't having mental issues (perfectly acceptable response) and in that interview Daniels set him up to take shots at the coaches and he didn't), Osborn for sure is publicly unhappy. But a lot of the public sniping among players is coming from Godchaux, Bourne etc. And for the most part nobody is directly going to Mayo. And I'd say the guy who has been the most publicly toeing the team line and trying to be a leader is Maye who is new.
Also... Mayo doesn't have any consistent messaging, not sure how anyone could align with it when it's an amorphous blob of ever-changing nothingness. The person least in line with Mayo's messaging is Mayo 2 hours after he says something.
It's clear from even this discussion that the consensus is that Mayo is unsuited for the job. We all see it. The players do as well.
I don't think a midseason firing would lead to vast improvement but every hour that passes I think it becomes more likely.
I don't think a midseason firing would lead to vast improvement but every hour that passes I think it becomes more likely.
I refuse to believe Robert and Jonathan Kraft want any part of the blowback from firing Mayo before the end of his first season.
Nothing they have done in the last year or so indicates any sort of clear or coherent thinking in the first place.
As others have already pointed out: if real-life Montgomery Burns persona Jeremy Jacobs could admit a mistake in a hire (Dave Lewis) and move to correct it very quickly despite it costing him a lot of money, there's no real reason why Kraft pere et fils should be unable to do the same.
Firing Mayo after a 1-16 or 2-15 season will be fairly defensible.
Firing Mayo after 7 games will raise all sorts of unwanted questions from the Krafts' perspective. The season is totally lost anyway, and nobody gives a shit about KJ Osborn. Might as well ride with Mayo for the season. A real NFL-caliber coach can fix whatever needs fixing next season, so no need to panic about carryover effects.
What type of blowback would there be? 99% of the public opinion now is that the team is a tire fire and the Mayo hiring was a disaster from the start due to a lack of a real hiring process. If anything moving on would show Kraft knows when to admit a mistake. Being stubborn and riding it out for as long as possible would probably be worse for the public opinion of Kraft. Recently, Denver fired Hackett and Jacksonville fired Urban Meyer in their first year as coaches and I don't think there was a ton of blowback on either franchise.
I mean, they aren't going to do it in week 8 but if they continue to lose by multiple scores each week and this ends up 1-16/2-15 I think it's certainly possible. I think it's a far worse look to bring the same staff back after that type of year than it is to cut bait on you chosen heir after a year.
Dave Lewis was not the owner’s well in advance selected replacement to a coaching legend. Mayo is also the Patriots’s first African-American head coach in franchise history. Firing him without a full season of work would be a disaster.
One thing about Kraft firing Mayo vs. other owners firing guys after a year......
Mayo is Kraft's guy, not just the guy he picked, he's a guy Kraft has built a relationship with over years, they have a personal relationship. Kraft loves the idea of these players (turned coaches) are his friends.
Also, I think Kraft made the moves he has and the comments he has recently on the basis of him thinking that all the "Tom or Bill who gets the most credit for the dynasty" talk should be "Tom, Bill or Bob... how do you divide the credit". For a guy who has been constantly trying to sell that he's quietly a football genius and his coaching choices are because he just "knows" a good coach when he sees him, it's a huge hit to fire your buddy that you handpicked, and told the world you knew was a genius the minute you met him.
Kraft is gonna fire AVP (so far the best of the 3 big coaches by a good measure) before he fires Mayo.
Mayo is Kraft's guy, not just the guy he picked, he's a guy Kraft has built a relationship with over years, they have a personal relationship. Kraft loves the idea of these players (turned coaches) are his friends.
Also, I think Kraft made the moves he has and the comments he has recently on the basis of him thinking that all the "Tom or Bill who gets the most credit for the dynasty" talk should be "Tom, Bill or Bob... how do you divide the credit". For a guy who has been constantly trying to sell that he's quietly a football genius and his coaching choices are because he just "knows" a good coach when he sees him, it's a huge hit to fire your buddy that you handpicked, and told the world you knew was a genius the minute you met him.
Kraft is gonna fire AVP (so far the best of the 3 big coaches by a good measure) before he fires Mayo.
Has he not? Hackett was bad, and he got fired mostly because he couldn't work with Russ (who then couldn't work with the next coach who was an all-time offensive coach)... but his team was vaguely competitive.
Mayo is unlikely to be fired for non-performance reasons, and generally you probably should give every 1st time coach at least a year but.... this team is wildly uncompetitive on the field, and the side of the ball he's an expert on is collapsing, the public messaging is terrible and the lockkerroom appears to be a mess.....
Mayo has been wildly inept on all fronts so far.
He’s been bad, but the perception is that he isn’t Hackett bad. Hackett ruined his reputation in Denver and there were justified questions about him being hired as an OC by the Jets. If Mayo was fired today, any team who hired him as a DC would not face the same level scrutiny.
Agreed, particularly given that Mayo hasn’t committed any exactly mortal sins. And as said, he was an integral member of the coaching staff for a few years under Belichick and an extremely good player for this franchise.
The team is bad and he’s said some dumb things at many press conferences. Mayo has looked dreadful and overmatched.
But for a franchise that’s had 4 head coaches since the early 1990s, the idea that they’d fire Mayo 8 games into his tenure is crazy to me, and would only lean into the kind of chaos we see in the worst-run organizations in the NFL (Jets, Panthers, etc).
I’d be interested to see if any posts remain from the prior iteration of this board in 2000. I imagine many members understandably thought Belichick would never be a good head coach and was a lifetime Defensive Coordinator — and again, he turned out to be the best Head Coach in history.
Correct. The Patriots went 4-13 last year and look poised to finish with 2-3 wins this year. That level of dysfunction means everyone in the organization should be “on the hot seat,” from players to coaches to the front office.
Personally, the Hail Mary I’d encourage the organization to throw is to try to lure Nick Caserio back from Houston and make him Team President or some such, fire Wolf, and go from there. I’d empower him to help make the decision on Mayo this offseason.
I'm not sure about that. Hackett won some games (4) and generally played close games, only getting blown out 3 times. Hackett's area of expertise was offense which and the Denver offense was inept.
Mayo's team gets blown out more frequently than Hackett did and he'll probably lose more games. Mayo's area of expertise is defense and the defense looks equally as inept as Hackett's offense did in Denver.
I’m not in the New England bubble.
I can tell you, with 100% confidence, the public perception of Jerod Mayo is nowhere near as bad as it was for Urban Meyer and Nathaniel Hackett. Not even close
EDIT: Hackett had questions about his capabilities as an OC. He was thought of as basically a Rodgers buddy. The Broncos hired him because all of the reports were they wanted to get Rodgers.
When they got wilson, they couldn’t get plays in on time consistently. Hackett fucked up field goal decisions 3 straight weeks. They were a fucking punchline on ESPN.
Trying to suggest that Hackett was competent is complete revisionist history
I can tell you, with 100% confidence, the public perception of Jerod Mayo is nowhere near as bad as it was for Urban Meyer and Nathaniel Hackett. Not even close
EDIT: Hackett had questions about his capabilities as an OC. He was thought of as basically a Rodgers buddy. The Broncos hired him because all of the reports were they wanted to get Rodgers.
When they got wilson, they couldn’t get plays in on time consistently. Hackett fucked up field goal decisions 3 straight weeks. They were a fucking punchline on ESPN.
Trying to suggest that Hackett was competent is complete revisionist history
Re: Hackett - IIRC, Denver really viewed themselves as "reloading" rather than rebuilding. Hackett got the axe in part because ownership of that team had unrealistic expectations of competing. Turns out that the team wasn't that good and they misfired badly with Russ. Hackett paid for those sins. And I say that as someone who is generally not a fan of his, but he was put in a bad position with unrealistic expectations and failed. Mayo's expectations are a lot lower. Now one could make the argument that Mayo can't even meet those lowered expectations, but I think the Krafts give him at least a year and likely order him to bring on more veteran coaches to the staff - something they never had to do with BB and is tantamount to interfering with football ops. So we'll see how it plays out.
The Krafts had it easy for so long hiring BB and letting him run the ship (while Brady steered it). Now that they are gone, it's looking pretty obvious to me that the Krafts are no better at doing this than any other owner.
The Krafts had it easy for so long hiring BB and letting him run the ship (while Brady steered it). Now that they are gone, it's looking pretty obvious to me that the Krafts are no better at doing this than any other owner.
I think that's just because OCs are held to a much higher standard than DCs in terms of public perception,, because fans are much more comfortable thinking they know how to call offense vs defense (see all the "well just don't run it" stuff). And as @astrozombie notes, people thought both the DEN team and Russ Wilson were a team that was going to be pushing for a playoff spot.
But also... do we think any team WOULD hire Mayo as a DC if he was fired tomorrow? It certainly feels like both Belichick's were seen as the brains behind the defense here. Would Jerod Mayo coming off a season where he had a larger amount of control over the defense than every before and it was one of the worst in the league have any suitors? I think if he got canned he'd probably have to go to college or take an "advisory" role.
Hackett was terrible, and he got a lot of media attention for it... he also got 15 games, it's only been 7 here and the national shows are doing segments on Mayo... he's in the vicinity of Hackett at the very least.
Denver had much more talent than New England. The expectations were unrealistic but Hackett was an abomination of a coach.
Wilson was bad, but the front office and Hackett basically let him do whatever he want. Hackett was hired to call offensive plays and the offense was a fucking disaster.
In Week 1 against the Seahawks on 4th and 5, with one minute left in the game and ALL 3 timeouts, Hackett let the play clock go all the way down then called a timeout to kick a 64 yard field goal.
While he was coaching the team averaged 15.5 points per game and were last in 3rd down conversion rate.
I also want to reiterate that there were and are very strong rumors that Hackett was only hired because he was close to Aaron Rodgers and the Broncos thought they were going to get him.
Hackett was, and is, a terrible coach. He’s on a team basically run by his buddy Aaron and he still got demoted from play calling duties
Hackett and Mayer were national storylines not only because of how bad they were but because the dysfunction around the team (in Denver with Russ, in Jacksonville with basically everything surrounding Urban).
Mayo is more like a normal bad coach. They had no expectations from the national media, the team sucks and is going through normal things for most shitty teams
The blowback would be positive, the Kraft's have completely lost the fanbase.
I'm pretty sure Mayo is in way over his head and I don't have a lot of hope of him figuring things out, but I think he deserves the rest of the season to see if he can get the team to start showing signs of life. Plus, what would be the point of firing him now? The team is bad, the season is lost. I don't see the point of playing the rest of the way with an interim coach. And if they did fire Mayo and made someone the interim coach and that guy won a few games, they sure as shit better not just hand him the reigns without doing a real search this time.
How was the expectation they they’d go from 4 to 2 wins?
The expectation was that a new GM and new coach (and new QB) would result in fewer wins? I cant imagine that was the expectation of Kraft, Wolf or Mayo
I live in the New England bubble, and the notion that watercooler talk around here is all about what a bad coach Jerod Mayo is...it's abject nonsense. Every person that I've talked to who is lamenting the bad season is complaining about the bad roster, lack of talent, but is also excited about the potential of Maye. I haven't heard or read a single person outside of SoSH or who isn't employed by the sports talking head industry that is calling Mayo's coaching ability into question. If it's happening, it's nobody that I know. And I know tons of Bruins fans who blame the fucking coach for everything.
Do we know how long Mayo’s contract is? I have a hard time believing that the Krafts would be willing to pay three coaches next year.
Mayo and Wolf have at least another 18 months of riding “it’s all BB’s fault”
I cant imagine any world where Kraft fires either of them before 2026 unless they end 1-16 and start 0-7 next year or something. And as bad as I think Mayo and Wolf have been thus far, I think Maye (and the nature of the NFL) probably gets them 3-4 wins this year
This is not an historically bad team. Just a run of the mill bad team and bad coaching staff. That’s probably good for a couple wins. The chances things bottom out to the point where Kraft has to admit he made a mistake in hand picking (without any search) BB’s successors are tiny.
I think the advantage of firing a coach before the completion of the season is it allows you to get a jump on a coaching search, but in that case you’re really talking about firing the guy very late in the season (eg, Weeks 15-18), not Week 8.
Who would even take over as interim coach? McAdoo? I think firing Mayo now would be a purely emotional, useless move.
I don't think Kraft expected playoff contention or even many wins this year but I do think the baseline expectations were probably be the plucky underdogs that play teams tough, the QB shows promise and they win 4-6 games. Then they can spend in the offseason to fill some gaps and put talent around Maye and start contending for the playoffs in 2025.
They still have 10 games left so there's time for Mayo to get there and they'll give him that rope but if they don't show some signs of progress by years end, they might re-evaluate.
Cool cool, man. I live in the NE bubble and ignore sports radio completely. But I can tell you what my buddies who are very much not on SoSH and also have a nice disdain for the Boston sports media think about Maye's coaching ability and it ain't good. We're all just N's of 1 here.
If they fired Maye right now who do you give the reigns to? The OC who can't score or the DC who can't stop anyone from scoring?
And it's not like there's an obvious candidate for interim head coach. AVP? Covington, a first-time DC?
Pass. (Though I agree Mayo's doesn't look ready for the job.)
Note: Too late.