Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

[NextBigThing8184]

This is silly. We're talking about the game in total. The body of work, which includes the practice and prep leading into it.

You're suggesting that despite the win, because Boutte dropped a pass that Mayo gets no credit for having his team prepared to play on both sides of the ball and gutting out a win against a team with substantially more talent.

You're saying it was Bill Belicheck's fault that Wes Welker dropped a pass in the Super Bowl that could have secured a win. Because dropped passes are the direct fault of a head coach. Bill did a shit job that day because Wes dropped the pass.

It doesn’t seem like “we” are talking about the game in total

I don’t think Mayo deserves too much heat but I don’t think he deserves kudos either.

You seem to be ignoring the sloppy play and only giving him kudos. Which is bizarre.

the clock management was bad. The run D was bad up front again especially early. The WR talked crap all week and came out and looked terrible. Another week of a bad special teams play (blown block on the tipped punt), another week of a soft fumble by the RB. Another week of bad and unfocused penalties.

you’re saying that none of that has anything to do with Mayo. Only the good stuff which to me should get credited mostly to AVP who called a good game.

I view players having bad fundamentals and poor focus as coaching issues from the head coach. Mayo is not calling plays. His job is to get the most out of his players and manage the clock. I don’t think he did that on a level which warrants praise. I also don’t think it was so bad as to warrant much criticism.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I'm not interested in wading into this argument, other than this one note which is...

WR look sloppy and unfocused - not Mayo

WR catch a ball - Mayo did well

is that how it works?

...I'm haven't heard anyone take this position

The team's play may be, as the therapeutic types sometimes say, multi-determined.

Coaches do a bunch of stuff-- some for the better some for the worse. Players do a bunch of stuff-- same deal. And we on the sidelines see the result of both, through a glass darkly if you will, and are left to wonder what came before.

A generous personality might err on the side of giving credit and encouragement where it might be due. Someone less forgiving might hold it back until there is strong evidence it's been earned. They difference is obviously not in the events they saw or the darkness of the glass.

 

[cshea]

It doesn’t seem like “we” are talking about the game in total

I don’t think Mayo deserves too much heat but I don’t think he deserves kudos either.

You seem to be ignoring the sloppy play and only giving him kudos. Which is bizarre.

the clock management was bad. The run D was bad up front again especially early. The WR talked crap all week and came out and looked terrible. Another week of a bad special teams play (blown block on the tipped punt), another week of a soft fumble by the RB. Another week of bad and unfocused penalties.

you’re saying that none of that has anything to do with Mayo. Only the good stuff which to me should get credited mostly to AVP who called a good game.

I view players having bad fundamentals and poor focus as coaching issues from the head coach. Mayo is not calling plays. His job is to get the most out of his players and manage the clock. I don’t think he did that on a level which warrants praise. I also don’t think it was so bad as to warrant much criticism.

They had 5 accepted penalties for 50 yards. 2 DPI, an illegal hands to the face, a defensive holding and an offensive holding. I don't think any of them were sloppy or unfocused. Maybe it's a different characterization but I put the controllable pre-snap stuff in the sloppy or unfocused bucket not heat the moment plays like DPI and holding. And it wasn't an epidemic, 3 of those flags were on the 2nd Jets drive of the game. They didn't have a single pre-snap penalty which is not something they've been able to say much.

The run defense wasn't good but it also wasn't embarassing like it had been the previous 3 weeks. Step in the right direction. Many more to take but it was positive.

Special teams had a kick tipped but you also conveniently leave out the 62-yard punt return that got them back into the game.

Clock management...I dunno. Didn't think it was egregious. You can certainly question the end of the first half but at least they picked a lane this time. A quick 3 and out and we'd be bashing them too. They had just put the backup QB in who went 3 and out the series before. Taking it into the half and re-grouping is certainly defensible. The end of game I can understand wanting them to take the clock down so the 4th down play is the last play of the game but I would say that it's fair to leave some wiggle room in the event of offsetting penalties or some scenario where a penalty gets them a new set of downs.

The offensive line has also started to settle in a bit and has improved as the weeks have gone on.

I'm not putting the game plan in the hall of fame or am even remotely close to convinced Mayo is even an average coach let alone a good one but given how the previous 6 weeks had gone I thought it was a step in the right direction. The Jets were more than complicit in their demice but if the other team is going to fumble the game to you, you can't fumble it back and they didn't.

 

[IdiotKicker]

What do we think an NFL head coach does or should do? I have my list:

• Set the identity and direction for the team in all phases.
• Hire coaches who can translate those ideas into game plans, design plays, and teach the technique needed to execute those plays.
• Manage the overall psychology and morale of the team.
• Make major game-day decisions (timeouts, end of half strategy, punt vs go for it, etc)
• Direct game-day strategy changes from coordinators if game situation changes.

I think it's unclear if Mayo is a plus in any of these categories at the moment, though he's probably closest as far as the psychological and morale management of the team. With BB, you knew what the team wanted to do, he would hire capable assistants who could coach up the positions well, he had his finger on the pulse of the team, he was excellent in-game, and rarely got out-gameplanned in-game as well. Other coaches might only have a couple of plus attributes, but that's still enough to win. Getting into the nitty-gritty on each play isn't really a useful way to evaluate an NFL head coach in my opinion, but it can provide insight into these areas if we see longer-term trends that develop that indicate the coaches he has hired are incapable of teaching players the way he needs to. But fumbles or drops on one day? That's a little too granular in my book.

 

[NextBigThing8184]

They had 5 accepted penalties for 50 yards. 2 DPI, an illegal hands to the face, a defensive holding and an offensive holding. I don't think any of them were sloppy or unfocused. Maybe it's a different characterization but I put the controllable pre-snap stuff in the sloppy or unfocused bucket not heat the moment plays like DPI and holding. And it wasn't an epidemic, 3 of those flags were on the 2nd Jets drive of the game. They didn't have a single pre-snap penalty which is not something they've been able to say much.

The run defense wasn't good but it also wasn't embarassing like it had been the previous 3 weeks. Step in the right direction. Many more to take but it was positive.

Special teams had a kick tipped but you also conveniently leave out the 62-yard punt return that got them back into the game.

Clock management...I dunno. Didn't think it was egregious. You can certainly question the end of the first half but at least they picked a lane this time. A quick 3 and out and we'd be bashing them too. They had just put the backup QB in who went 3 and out the series before. Taking it into the half and re-grouping is certainly defensible. The end of game I can understand wanting them to take the clock down so the 4th down play is the last play of the game but I would say that it's fair to leave some wiggle room in the event of offsetting penalties or some scenario where a penalty gets them a new set of downs.

The offensive line has also started to settle in a bit and has improved as the weeks have gone on.

I'm not putting the game plan in the hall of fame or am even remotely close to convinced Mayo is even an average coach let alone a good one but given how the previous 6 weeks had gone I thought it was a step in the right direction. The Jets were more than complicit in their demice but if the other team is going to fumble the game to you, you can't fumble it back and they didn't.

yes this was my point. The good and bad offset. The ST error and the nice return offset. The crappy D early but tightening late offset. The sloppy unfocused offense offset by the team not collapsing after Maye went out.

It’s a push as far as I’m concerned. He doesn’t deserve too much criticism but I think giving him accolades is a bridge too far given how unfocused and sloppy the team looked early on

 

[NextBigThing8184]

I'm not interested in wading into this argument, other than this one note which is...



...I'm haven't heard anyone take this position

The team's play may be, as the therapeutic types sometimes say, multi-determined.

Coaches do a bunch of stuff-- some for the better some for the worse. Players do a bunch of stuff-- same deal. And we on the sidelines see the result of both, through a glass darkly if you will, and are left to wonder what came before.

A generous personality might err on the side of giving credit and encouragement where it might be due. Someone less forgiving might hold it back until there is strong evidence it's been earned. They difference is obviously not in the events they saw or the darkness of the glass.

It was put forth earlier in this thread that we shouldn’t assign blame to Mayo for bad penalties or drops because the players are bad. But those same commenters are attributing good qualities to Mayo for the team playing “hard” and getting the win

either give him both credit and blame for the players’ performance or put it all on the players. That’s my point

Boutte making a few nice catches late helped the team win. That’s apparently sign of resilience and “playing hard” and a point to Mayo but him alligator arming a ball and dropping a critical pass early is not something we should suggest is a coaching issue for a guy being unfocused or lacking proper fundamentals.

I don’t think Mayo deserves blame for a single drop here and there. But the WR group as a whole has been running their mouths in the media and then turned in an abysmal performance for most of the game.
Bad drops, sloppy routes, avoiding contract…. That absolutely should fall to Mayo and his staff.

 

[joe dokes]

The strawman running amok over these last few posts is probably strong enough to play LT for the Patriots.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

It was put forth earlier in this thread that we shouldn’t assign blame to Mayo for bad penalties or drops because the players are bad. But those same commenters are attributing good qualities to Mayo for the team playing “hard” and getting the win

It's almost like some people think the coaches have more influence over some of the things that players do and less influence on other things that players do

You are, of course, free to disagree

I'm Switzerland on this one. Have fun and be nice to each other, y'all. See you in a different discussion...

 

[DJnVa]

 

[Jimbodandy]

Pats jobbed by the NFL again.

 

[McBride11]

Another end of first half 2 min drill disaster. 2 straight pass completions. Then several shitty shotgun draws up the middle.

I said this real time in the game thread, should have gone for 2 at the end. You are 2-6. Your offense sucks. Are we hoping for a tie? Just fuckin go for it.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Another end of first half 2 min drill disaster. 2 straight pass completions. Then several shitty shotgun draws up the middle.

I said this real time in the game thread, should have gone for 2 at the end. You are 2-6. Your offense sucks. Are we hoping for a tie? Just fuckin go for it.

Yeah, I don't get playing for OT when the only good unit in the entire game is the opposing D... either win or go home

 

[leetinsley38]

Titans win the OT coin toss, elect to receive. Mayo decides to go against the wind?

 

[Cellar-Door]

One of my bigger concerns with Mayo is he seems to be incredibly conservative. He coaches like he has the dynasty Patriots and is an 8 point favorite.

 

[richgedman'sghost]

One of my bigger concerns with Mayo is he seems to be incredibly conservative. He coaches like he has the dynasty Patriots and is an 8 point favorite.

One aspect about not going for 2 at the end of regulation touchdown is thar Maye might have needed a breather after the touchdown pass. The game story in The Athletic mentioned that Maye needed a rest. Unfortunately the Pats did not have a timeout left to give him a rest. To his credit Mayo refused to throw his QB under the bus. He did say that there was a reason the Pats kicked the extra point but Mayo would not specify or comment if Maye was gassed.
Question for the rules folks: could the Pats have taken a 12 man in the huddle penalty. That would have backed up the 2 point play but it would have given Maye time to rest .
The Giants used a form of the 12 men in the huddle penalty last week against Pittsburgh. In the last 2 minutes Pitt ran for like 7 yards on 1st down. Rather than let Pitt drain more clock on 2nd down the Giants took the too many men penalty and conceded the first down. Since the clock stopped because of the defensive penalty, the Giants were eventually able to call their last 2 timeouts and get the ball back.

 

[Cellar-Door]

One aspect about not going for 2 at the end of regulation touchdown is thar Maye might have needed a breather after the touchdown pass. The game story in The Athletic mentioned that Maye needed a rest. Unfortunately the Pats did not have a timeout left to give him a rest. To his credit Mayo refused to throw his QB under the bus. He did say that there was a reason the Pats kicked the extra point but Mayo would not specify or comment if Maye was gassed.
Question for the rules folks: could the Pats have taken a 12 man in the huddle penalty. That would have backed up the 2 point play but it would have given Maye time to rest .
The Giants used a form of the 12 men in the huddle penalty last week against Pittsburgh. In the last 2 minutes Pitt ran for like 7 yards on 1st down. Rather than let Pitt drain more clock on 2nd down the Giants took the too many men penalty and conceded the first down. Since the clock stopped because of the defensive penalty, the Giants were eventually able to call their last 2 timeouts and get the ball back.

Could also just take a delay.
My comment was more general than just today's 2pt decision though, he's been pretty conservative all year.

 

[Justthetippett]

One of my bigger concerns with Mayo is he seems to be incredibly conservative. He coaches like he has the dynasty Patriots and is an 8 point favorite.

This was also a hallmark of the last two years of Bill. Playing not to lose when everyone already expects you to lose and you are often way behind is a strange strategy; not advocating for reckless aggressiveness, but a calculated risk here or there would be nice. They suck no matter what, but with more aggressive play calling in the SEA and TENN games they could have four wins.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

If the Pats had gone for 2 and blown it, Mayo would have gotten a heap of criticism.

They did have one decent change to win it in OT but Maye blew it.

The clock management at the end of the first half was once again incompetent.

 

[tims4wins]

If the Pats had gone for 2 and blown it, Mayo would have gotten a heap of criticism.

I disagree with this entirely.

 

[8slim]

Mike Reiss on T&H just now second-guessed the decision to not roll out the same starting OL as they did they week before. Noted how they had to pull Robinson and move Onwenu inside in the 2nd quarter.

That seems like a topic much more critical than the 2 point conversion. This staff has to get the OL right. They owe it to Maye.

 

[chilidawg]

I disagree with this entirely.

You always get 2nd guessed when things go wrong, but you'd sure hope that doesn't factor into decision making. Should have gone for 2 imo, would have been more fun.

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

There's zero chance Mayo gets criticized if he goes for 2 at the end of regulation. You're 2-6 and playing on the road against a team begging to be had, go for the win.

The point about Maye being gassed is well-taken but IMO not enough to justify kicking the XP.

 

[sezwho]

There's zero chance Mayo gets criticized if he goes for 2 at the end of regulation. You're 2-6 and playing on the road against a team begging to be had, go for the win.

The point about Maye being gassed is well-taken but IMO not enough to justify kicking the XP.

Right, you wouldn’t have criticized him? Ha ha ha. I thought you were inevitable?

 

[Smiling Joe Hesketh]

Right, you wouldn’t have criticized him? Ha ha ha. I thought you were inevitable?

I wanted him to go for 2 at the end and said so in the game thread. Going for 2 was the correct move.

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

I think it depends a bit on how the play turns out. Obviously, if they convert it's GENIUS. If it was some sort of god awful, non-competitive play then he would get shredded. If it was a play that almost worked but got batted away by a CB or dropped by the WR then the takes would be a mixed bag. The media is fueled by contrarian takes so of course there would be criticism if they had gone for two, as I'm sure there are media meatheads this morning dug in on kicking the PAT being the choice.

 

[k-factory]

What does Mayo hang his hat on? One would think the mentorship from BB would have translated in some phase.
Gameplanning?
Disciplined football?
In- game decision making and situational football?
Defensive prowess from his experience?
Offensive mind? (We knew from the jump that’s not his calling card)
Player development?
Staff assembly? (We also knew this wasn’t a strength)
Draft input?
The proverbial ‘leader of men?’

Yes, it’s his first year but there are no indicators for any strong axis. We’ll see at years end but I don’t think there are any guarantees he keeps the gig if only Maye flashes and there is no impact elsewhere.

 

[Ralphwiggum]

They suck and are most likely going to lose anyway (and they did lose anyway), why not be bold? I think it would help him in the locker room too, players love it when coaches do shit like that.

Show some imagination out there, show me that you are not just another run of the mill head coach who does everything by the numbers.

And the second you start coaching based on what the likely media (or fan) narratives will be, you are toast.

 

[BigJimEd]

Titans win the OT coin toss, elect to receive. Mayo decides to go against the wind?

Pulling this quote from the Maye thread as it is applicable here

"We were throwing into the wind and I have to put more on it. Just a dumb decision. Something you'd like to have back," he said. "Especially in that situation -- we could at least tie it up. Sometimes the best play is to throw it away."

 

[Garshaparra]

I wanted him to go for 2 at the end and said so in the game thread. Going for 2 was the correct move.

In a vacuum, yes, but Maye was literally exhausted from his run-around on the TD play. Taking a delay of game to give him a breather, then going for 2 from the 7 would have definitely been second-guessed, as they probably would have rushed 3, dropped 7 and spied Maye to keep him from scrambling in. And as we'd already seen, a 2 yard rush was not about to happen. I doubt they have many/any gimmick plays for halfback options or something like that. It sucks, but it's what they'd done to themselves.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Full disclosure: I got a bunch of vaccine updates the day before and spent a bunch of the game on Sunday in a feverish delirium.

[/insert Polk joke here]

And while I've been holding off on criticizing the offensive coaching.... patience is eroding. I'm not looking for overall good play or wins. But I am looking for some evidence of improvement.

Yes, our receivers aren't creating separation. And yes, they aren't coming down with contested catches. And yes, the OLine isn't giving Maye much time. But for the offensive coaching staff, a huge % of the job is identifying plays that can can work and then getting the players to execute. Maye has shown he can get rid of the ball quick, can get it downfield, and everyone keeps raving about how fast he processes what his options are. OK.

Yesterday, yet again, we saw multiple receivers run to the same spots downfield; receivers too close to each other to create space on high/low crossing routes; and receivers making their cuts short of the chains when a first-down is needed. If this is still happening in week nine because the receivers are running their routes wrong than the offensive coaching staff is slow in addressing and fixing this. If this is because the plays are designed that way, then these play concepts aren't what's needed.

Again, I'm not looking for wins or players to suddenly look more talented than they have been. I'm looking for evidence of a concept that makes sense. I'm looking to see improvements in intentionality. I'm looking to for signs that what you're trying to do make sense. Repeatedly running up the middle on first down, followed by a predictable wide pass to someone behind the line of scrimmage on second down... if I can call it in advance the other team's defense surely anticipates it as well.

To me, one of the headlines about our offense yesterday was that a huge % of our yards/pts came on broken plays. Maye scrambling for 22 yards, Maye throwing that school-yard touchdown to Rham at the end of the 4th. It would be interesting for someone to run the numbers on: how many yards and points we got on plays where Maye didn't have to scramble, vs. how many yards/points we get on broken plays. My guess is that the first was a small number and the second most of our offense. And the second is obviously a great strength. We should be excited to see it. But the second should complement the first, not replace it.

We said it at the time, but part of why the offense probably looked relatively good the first two weeks against Cincinnati and Seattle is that neither team had the book on us yet.

Well, everyone's got the book now. We need to change up the plot.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I disagree with this entirely.

There's zero chance Mayo gets criticized if he goes for 2 at the end of regulation. You're 2-6 and playing on the road against a team begging to be had, go for the win

I'm with @Smiling Joe Hesketh and @tims4wins on this one.

Put aside the outcome of the hypothetical 2-pt attempt, and the fact that click-baity people online will always criticize you now matter what you do.

People who understand football would have seen the Pats getting beat on both side of the ball-- seen that we couldn't stop the Titans offense or sustain drives-- and that we had a chance to steal the win at the end of the 4th, and said "Yeah, reasonable gamble"

 

[BigJimEd]

Pats getting beat on both side of the ball-- seen that we couldn't stop the Titans offense

Agree they should have went for two but disagree with getting beat on D. Titans really only had one other sustained drive resulting in a FG after the first drive of the game. Defense had been playing pretty well. Even if I don't agree I think it's at least defensible to go to OT.

Choosing to go into the wind though. Not sure what the reasoning there was. Like to hear Mayo's thoughts on that.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Full disclosure: I got a bunch of vaccine updates the day before and spent a bunch of the game on Sunday in a feverish delirium.

[/insert Polk joke here]

And while I've been holding off on criticizing the offensive coaching.... patience is eroding. I'm not looking for overall good play or wins. But I am looking for some evidence of improvement.

Yes, our receivers aren't creating separation. And yes, they aren't coming down with contested catches. And yes, the OLine isn't giving Maye much time. But for the offensive coaching staff, a huge % of the job is identifying plays that can can work and then getting the players to execute. Maye has shown he can get rid of the ball quick, can get it downfield, and everyone keeps raving about how fast he processes what his options are. OK.

Yesterday, yet again, we saw multiple receivers run to the same spots downfield; receivers too close to each other to create space on high/low crossing routes; and receivers making their cuts short of the chains when a first-down is needed. If this is still happening in week nine because the receivers are running their routes wrong than the offensive coaching staff is slow in addressing and fixing this. If this is because the plays are designed that way, then these play concepts aren't what's needed.

Again, I'm not looking for wins or players to suddenly look more talented than they have been. I'm looking for evidence of a concept that makes sense. I'm looking to see improvements in intentionality. I'm looking to for signs that what you're trying to do make sense. Repeatedly running up the middle on first down, followed by a predictable wide pass to someone behind the line of scrimmage on second down... if I can call it in advance the other team's defense surely anticipates it as well.

To me, one of the headlines about our offense yesterday was that a huge % of our yards/pts came on broken plays. Maye scrambling for 22 yards, Maye throwing that school-yard touchdown to Rham at the end of the 4th. It would be interesting for someone to run the numbers on: how many yards and points we got on plays where Maye didn't have to scramble, vs. how many yards/points we get on broken plays. My guess is that the first was a small number and the second most of our offense. And the second is obviously a great strength. We should be excited to see it. But the second should complement the first, not replace it.

We said it at the time, but part of why the offense probably looked relatively good the first two weeks against Cincinnati and Seattle is that neither team had the book on us yet.

Well, everyone's got the book now. We need to change up the plot.

Would have to see the All-22 to be sure, but generally when we've seen this it's been the WR/TE screwing up. And given even our "vets" are consistently committing false starts (Bourne, Henry) and other mental errors...I'm pretty sure it's not play design. It's guys getting off the line slow, or breaking the route a couple yards early, turning picks and clearouts (which we need since nobody can win 1v1) into crowding and collisions. We saw it last year with the same guys, and the year before.... if the same guys make the same mistakes under 3 OCs.... I am going to guess it's our WRs being bad route runners, not that every OC we hire is designing terrible plays.

 

[luckiestman]

I don’t think the staff is really showing evidence of being bad. The team is in these games and I think the roster sucks. Nothing the Pats do really impresses me either but I don’t see the coaching staff as being uncompetitive. It’s a little bit of a bad spot because personally I would want to run a different offense with Maye than what I’m seeing but who knows what’s available and what they would do if they could block?

If we’re voting, going for two was the play.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Would have to see the All-22 to be sure, but generally when we've seen this it's been the WR/TE screwing up. And given even our "vets" are consistently committing false starts (Bourne, Henry) and other mental errors...I'm pretty sure it's not play design. It's guys getting off the line slow, or breaking the route a couple yards early, turning picks and clearouts (which we need since nobody can win 1v1) into crowding and collisions. We saw it last year with the same guys, and the year before.... if the same guys make the same mistakes under 3 OCs.... I am going to guess it's our WRs being bad route runners, not that every OC we hire is designing terrible plays.

That's fair

And take my impressions/responses to the game with a grain of salt since I was in a fog half the time

 

[4 6 3 DP]

Specific to the two issues at the end of the game:

https://www.patsfans.com/patriots/blog/2024/11/04/transcript-jerod-mayos-press-conference-11-4/

Mayo said this morning that the reason they kicked into the wind was because the wind shifted during the game. So basically no one noticed or factored that in.

On the two point conversion, his answer was basically word salad.

My instinct is AVP didn't have a play ready that Mayo liked, and in real time with no timeouts he just sent the kicking team out there.

Given that none of their WR can get open and in that compressed space Henry would have trouble getting open, and the only semblance of a running game was the QB running for his life, I think if they'd gone for it I'd have watched a Pop Warner level offensive play and been enraged at that.

 

[luckiestman]

My instinct is AVP didn't have a play ready that Mayo liked, .

This cannot be true. It’s a disaster if it’s true.

 

[Cellar-Door]

Specific to the two issues at the end of the game:

https://www.patsfans.com/patriots/blog/2024/11/04/transcript-jerod-mayos-press-conference-11-4/

Mayo said this morning that the reason they kicked into the wind was because the wind shifted during the game. So basically no one noticed or factored that in.

On the two point conversion, his answer was basically word salad.

My instinct is AVP didn't have a play ready that Mayo liked, and in real time with no timeouts he just sent the kicking team out there.

Given that none of their WR can get open and in that compressed space Henry would have trouble getting open, and the only semblance of a running game was the QB running for his life, I think if they'd gone for it I'd have watched a Pop Warner level offensive play and been enraged at that.

I think there is basically zero chance of this, and there is no reason to think it. Every team comes into the game with 3+ go to 2pt plays. I think the most reasonable explanation is Maye just ran around for 12 seconds (longest non-hail mary QB play since NGS started tracking it), he was gassed, Mayo is naturally conservative and so he used that to default to his gut instinct.

EDIT_ Reading his response, the first thing he mentions is going for it earlier in the year and being criticized... that says to me... conservative guy who has to be talked into going for 2. Then asked about fatigue he says "yeah" before word salad.

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

Agree they should have went for two but disagree with getting beat on D. Titans really only had one other sustained drive resulting in a FG after the first drive of the game.

Mmmm, not sure I'm buying that based on the second half we should have had confidence in our defense holding the Titans in OT.

TN had four second-half drives

• First time they got the ball, they go on a ~7 minute drive of 67 yards, kick a FG
• Second drive, they're +5 to +14 on every play, except one broken one for negative yards, which makes them punt
• After NE's turnover it takes them 4 plays to go from our 26 into the end zone, with Pollard running for 11 through the middle of our D and two relatively open completions on a short field
• With 2:47 left TN's coaches try to run out the clock

In general, leaving aside the plays when TN was trying to burn clock, Pollard was running through our defense on way too many downs, and Rudolph was able to find open guys 5-15 yards downfield pretty regularly. Our defense looked gassed.

And lo and behold, on their first drive of OT the Titans go the length of the field over seven and a half minutes-- with Pollard running for 7, 5, 5, 4, 3, 9, 3, and 5. And Rudolph going 2-for-3 with completions of 16 and 14.

The didn't get the TD in part because TN's backup C couldn't reliably snap the ball. Which messed up their 3-and-2 on the NE 17.

But overall that OT drive by TN felt pretty predictable.

 

[BigJimEd]

TN had four second-half drives

• First time they got the ball, they go on a ~7 minute drive of 67 yards, kick a FG
• Second drive, they're +5 to +14 on every play, except one broken one for negative yards, which makes them punt
• After NE's turnover it takes them 4 plays to go from our 26 into the end zone, with Pollard running for 11 through the middle of our D and two relatively open completions on a short field
• With 2:47 left TN's coaches try to run out the clock

In general, leaving aside the plays when TN was trying to burn clock, Pollard was running through our defense on way too many downs, and Rudolph was able to find open guys 5-15 yards downfield pretty regularly. Our defense looked gassed.

Fair enough.

 

[cshea]

I'm sure they had 2 or 3 plays ready. Teams usually go into games with 2 or 3 specific two point plays.

I think a lot of it comes back to Maye likely being gassed after the 12 second play. Whatever they did have for 2 pointers, they couldn't call a running play because they couldn't run it an inch. So you're putting the game back in a gassed Maye's hands. The Pats don't have WR's that are going to win quick off the line, nor do they have guys that they can throw jump balls too. I think it's highly likely the 2-pointer would've gone the same way as the last play of regulation, needing Maye magic.

I would've gone for it just because the defense was garbage so you're relying on a coin toss but I also think the 2-pointer was pretty low percentage as well. I didn't think it was egregious mismanagement by Mayo.

 

[4 6 3 DP]

I think there is basically zero chance of this, and there is no reason to think it. Every team comes into the game with 3+ go to 2pt plays. I think the most reasonable explanation is Maye just ran around for 12 seconds (longest non-hail mary QB play since NGS started tracking it), he was gassed, Mayo is naturally conservative and so he used that to default to his gut instinct.

EDIT_ Reading his response, the first thing he mentions is going for it earlier in the year and being criticized... that says to me... conservative guy who has to be talked into going for 2. Then asked about fatigue he says "yeah" before word salad.

I worded my response poorly. I am sure they had plays. I don't think Mayo, an extremely conservative coach, liked any of them given what he'd watched his offense do for three hours.

If you go to the post game transcript: https://www.patsfans.com/patriots/blog/2024/11/03/transcript-jerod-mayos-post-game-press-conference-11-3/

On his running around and tiredness and if it was a factor into not going for two there:

“I’m not going to get into… I don’t want to get into that. It’s a good question. I just don’t want to get into it now.”

That doesn't sound to me like someone who thoughtfully made that decision in real time. It sounds like a guy who didn't notice the wind had shifted.

 

[jk333]

I’m pretty sure it's not play design.

It's guys getting off the line slow, or breaking the route a couple yards early, turning picks and clearouts (which we need since nobody can win 1v1) into crowding and collisions. We saw it last year with the same guys, and the year before. If the same guys make the same mistakes under 3 OCs. I am going to guess it's our WRs being bad route runners, not that every OC we hire is designing terrible plays.

I have to echo this because I think it’s exactly correct.

 

[Cellar-Door]

So I was interested to see if he'd say anything so I pulled up his radio hit from today....
Nothing much of interest. Didn't really explain 2pt.
Mentioned that he thought the Polk hold was a soft call, and that the Polk shift was both a borderline call, and the QB's fault (weird given it sure seemed like Polk got benched for then penalty).

 

[CoffeeNerdness]

Maye ran around for 12 seconds, but so did 21 other guys on the field. Tenn could run on some subs for the conversion, but nevertheless I think in that situation it's advantage offense. A. if your coordinator is smart you're running a play that hasn't been out on film (you see it from Andy Reid all the time or the old McDaniel's direct snap to Faulk with Brady faking the poor snap style play) B. The receivers know where they're going (maybe not these guys) and the gassed defense has to react.

 

[dynomite]

They suck and are most likely going to lose anyway (and they did lose anyway), why not be bold? I think it would help him in the locker room too, players love it when coaches do shit like that.

Show some imagination out there, show me that you are not just another run of the mill head coach who does everything by the numbers.

And the second you start coaching based on what the likely media (or fan) narratives will be, you are toast.

I agree. Dan Campbell is another former player NFL coach and it has seemed to me from afar -- watching Hard Knocks and watching some Lions games -- that his players like that he's aggressive and believes in them to make a play.

I just realized Mayo was a player when the 4th & 2 play happened in '09, right? So he was here for maybe the most memorable 4th down decision in the Belichick tenure (right?)... was the '03 @ Colts stop on 4th down?

 

[tims4wins]

I agree. Dan Campbell is another former player NFL coach and it has seemed to me from afar -- watching Hard Knocks and watching some Lions games -- that his players like that he's aggressive and believes in them to make a play.

I just realized Mayo was a player when the 4th & 2 play happened in '09, right? So he was here for maybe the most memorable 4th down decision in the Belichick tenure (right?)... was the '03 @ Colts stop on 4th down?

Yes it was 4th

 

[Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache]

I'm pretty sure it's not play design. It's guys getting off the line slow, or breaking the route a couple yards early, turning picks and clearouts (which we need since nobody can win 1v1) into crowding and collisions. We saw it last year with the same guys, and the year before.... if the same guys make the same mistakes under 3 OCs.... I am going to guess it's our WRs being bad route runners, not that every OC we hire is designing terrible plays.

So, here's an honest question for folks who played or coached the game (and especially if you ran passing routes)... why do guys repeatedly do this stuff? Is is...

1. they're trying to time their cuts, and not covering the right distance in time;
2. they lose track of where on the field they are, and where they're supposed to go;
3. they're reacting to the defense, but in inconsistent ways;
4. something(s) else?

or a combination of the above?

 

[8slim]

The wind situation fascinates me. Did Mayo essentially say that he thought he was going *with* the wind in OT, but realized too late that we'd be going into the wind instead? Is that even true, regarding the wind changing directions? And if so, man that doesn't instill me with confidence that this staff is on the ball. Wind speed and direction is a huge deal, particularly when a FG can make or break a game. To not be on top of that is really distressing.

 

[BigJimEd]

Mayo when asked this morning about choosing the side in OT:

“The wind at the time, I would say the wind had changed. The wind had changed from the beginning of the game to the end of the game,” Mayo said. “So that’s what happened.”

Wow. Sounds like they just went with what they determined pregame for the opening kickoff.
Not exactly striking confidence with that quote.