Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

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Cellar-Door

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Would be pretty funny benching Stevenson for a guy who had one of the highest fumble rates among active RB coming into this season.

Also amusing to me is watching people be mad Mayo isn’t benching Stevenson for fumbles when we heard a lot of complaints when BB benched guys for making similar sloppy errors (and BB seemed to differentiate between good defensive plays forcing the ball out and sloppy ball handling which required benching/demoting)
Meh, Gibson has the same number of fumbles in his last 350 touches as Rham has in 75 touches this year. Sure he had issues in the past, but the general coach theory is... trust until you give a reasn not to.

But also, part of it is message. THis isn't benching Rham after 1 fumble, this is a potential teamwide culture of accountability inflection point. As he notes, you can't preach something week after week, then not have consequences. And given the issues with edge setting, this feels like a team that needs an example set that if you don't follow coaching, even if you have a big contract, you'll sit for a while.

I never had a real problem with Bill and fumbles, he stressed it, he backed it up by benching guys he felt were showing bad ball security and it was a big part of the culture that all the former players talk about where anybody could get ripped, and everyone was held to the same standard of "do your job"
 

Phil Plantier

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I believe in Mayo, but I love every Pats HC (since Rod Rust). I have 2 fears this season:

1. If the Pats don't win 3 games this year, Jonathan might fire Mayo.

2. One of the keys will be how much he gets the team to play together this season. Godchaux already has a "players weren't following the scheme" quote, and if there's a lot more like that, then we could be in real trouble.
 

Cellar-Door

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I believe in Mayo, but I love every Pats HC (since Rod Rust). I have 2 fears this season:

1. If the Pats don't win 3 games this year, Jonathan might fire Mayo.

2. One of the keys will be how much he gets the team to play together this season. Godchaux already has a "players weren't following the scheme" quote, and if there's a lot more like that, then we could be in real trouble.
I think #1 is highly unlikely. Bob just went on a huge tour about how he handpicked Mayo half a decade ago, admiting a mistake after 1 year.... no chance. He'll force him to fire AVP, maybe another assistant and throw the blame there.

My fear is that it becomes clear Mayo is terrible at this, the culture starts turning toxic and Kraft DOESN'T move on letting it fester into toxic club syndrome (see CLE, JAX, etc.).

My guess is it is somewhere in-between... Mayo isn't great, they fire AVP as the sacrifice, and Mayo gets another year or 2 to see if he gets better.
 

johnmd20

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My fear is that it becomes clear Mayo is terrible at this, the culture starts turning toxic and Kraft DOESN'T move on letting it fester into toxic club syndrome (see CLE, JAX, etc.).
Stefanski is a solid coach. The toxicity from Cleveland is coming from the rapist QB and the fact that every other QB on the roster since last season is better than him but he's being paid hundreds of millions, so he's playing.

That situation has nothing to do with what could happen to the Pats.
 

Curt S Loew

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Stefanski is a solid coach. The toxicity from Cleveland is coming from the rapist QB and the fact that every other QB on the roster since last season is better than him but he's being paid hundreds of millions, so he's playing.
Yeah. Cleveland is destined to always be Cleveland. Baker should still be turning on the sprinklers at the stadium doing those commercials.
 

Cellar-Door

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Stefanski is a solid coach. The toxicity from Cleveland is coming from the rapist QB and the fact that every other QB on the roster since last season is better than him but he's being paid hundreds of millions, so he's playing.

That situation has nothing to do with what could happen to the Pats.
CLE has been toxic almost from the moment they got a new franchise. Places get toxic and it's really hard to clean them out, you need both a hard reset and to get lucky with a good team.

I would also say that the problem in CLE is the QB, but more so ownership/front office. Last year they made him fire his very popular OC who had success with bad QBs (and since Stefanski was playcaller can't even blame it on playcalls) and made the playoffs with a guy they pulled off his couch, because somebody had to take the fall for the Watson signing and it wasn't going to be the GM who made a bunch of terrible moves. Didn't help that the QB they punted out of town was playing great and making a deep playoff run in the NFC
 

Ed Hillel

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Evan Lazar said in his Catch 22 podcast that the Patriots locker room is "teetering on a mutiny." I believe over the QB situation.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don't know if the Pats locker room is teetering on a mutiny or not. However I do know that media and podcast types need content and controversy/drama is the juiciest type so... maybe?
 

streeter88

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There were some signs of discontent in and after the 49ers game. Pop Douglas and Godchaux notably. But Lazar and Dussault of PU both are in the locker room regularly during the week when the press are allowed access, so they would see it if anyone would.
 

BillMuellerFanClub

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I don't know if the Pats locker room is teetering on a mutiny or not. However I do know that media and podcast types need content and controversy/drama is the juiciest type so... maybe?
I agree in principle, but that's not really Lazar's MO. Not to mention, he's a Patriot employee so that doesn't seem to benefit his employer by sharing that.
 

Cellar-Door

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There were some signs of discontent in and after the 49ers game. Pop Douglas and Godchaux notably. But Lazar and Dussault of PU both are in the locker room regularly during the week when the press are allowed access, so they would see it if anyone would.
I can see it. I don't think it's the QB situation (though I'm sure it doesn't help). I think there has been a rough transition from Bill's hyper-structured, very focused, ultra-prepared style to Mayo who seems much more seat of his pants all around. Godchaux is an indicator I think... you ask the DTs to buy into the unglamorous job of taking on doubles, stuffing inside runs, opening space for pass-rushers.... to have the DEs/OLB consistently go hunting sacks instead of doing their job is infuriating for those guys, and it trickles through everything. Guys are playing for jobs, if they feel like the coaching staff and their teammates are hurting that... you get guys going into "don't get hurt" mode or "well better get my stats" mode.


Edit- saw the clip and it was kinda weird, he talks about frustration among defenders among themselves, and Pop throwing a tantrum, and then ties it to Maye (maybe fair for Pop) when what he set up does not come to that conclusion. Kind of felt like he took an unsettled lockerroom with a lot of frustration (common for losing teams) and spun it into the story he wanted to tell, which is that he thinks they should start Maye. He didn't really have anything that connected the two, and no indication anybody actually was saying that they wanted Maye.
 
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sezwho

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Evan Lazar said in his Catch 22 podcast that the Patriots locker room is "teetering on a mutiny." I believe over the QB situation.
I always forget that one, I’ve been listening to pfw since forever and Evan is one of the best contributors. Thanks for reminding me: I now subscribe!
 
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Ehh. There were times BB would seemingly bury a rookie after a single fumble. Rham has fumbled in 4 straight games.
thats never been a thing. People complain Douglas was “buried” last year but the games after he fumbled, he was back as the WR4 which was clearly the plan coming out of camp. Opening day Parker was out and they ran a ton of 4 WR sets so he and Boutte got a lot of snaps. Moving forward for a while, Parker, Bourne and JJSS got the bulk of the WR snaps and they ran a lot fewer 4 WR sets.

Ridley had some fumbles which didn’t cost him playing time. Chris Harper (muffed punts but same idea) was dumped because he stunk and couldn’t do the one thing that made marginally useful Gronk wasn’t benched after a sloppy fumble his rookie year.

Benching a guy for a series or a part of a guy? Sure. Burying him? Let’s see the proof.
 

rodderick

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I agree in principle, but that's not really Lazar's MO. Not to mention, he's a Patriot employee so that doesn't seem to benefit his employer by sharing that.
Catch 22's whole raison d'être is focusing on the X's and O's over the drama side of football coverage. That Lazar went there on that show, to me, speaks a lot.
 

SMU_Sox

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Yep. He is excitable in general but it is a bad look for the team to make him do so.
I would guess that the team was responsible for this but it isn’t clear if Lazar initiated it himself or fessed up on himself to the team and then got folks to edit it. He immediately starts downplaying the severity of what he said on the pod. I think he realized it. He and Barth can get a little “carried away” sometimes and he shouldn’t have let that bleed into reporting.
Ultimately I don’t have a problem with him getting slapped on the wrist for this. It's a new regime in a tough situation. There is obvious frustration in the locker room. Mutiny happens in the NFL from time to time and it is very serious because if a coach loses a locker room it is incredibly difficult to cultivate culture and buy-in. Here we are not to that level. Players are merely frustrated. The team doesn't need their own reporter being hyperbolic and adding fuel to the frustration fire which also could undermine Mayo. When you are reporting but grossly exaggerate the situation you should be called out for it. And even if you take issue with my use of grossly here he admits himself he went too far.
 

streeter88

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Thanks everyone for the extra detail. I did not hear it on PU in the Thursday podcast, and don't subscribe to the Catch 22 podcast or listen to 98.5 with Joe Murray, so I missed all of this.

The truth as often can happen is likely somewhere between "players expressing their frustration with their own performances" and "mass discontent". Sunday's game vs Miami is will therefore be important for the team to play more like they did Weeks 1 and 2 (organised, disciplined, reducing individual mistakes, complementary football etc.) but a win would be very useful.
 

sezwho

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Thanks everyone for the extra detail. I did not hear it on PU in the Thursday podcast, and don't subscribe to the Catch 22 podcast or listen to 98.5 with Joe Murray, so I missed all of this.

The truth as often can happen is likely somewhere between "players expressing their frustration with their own performances" and "mass discontent". Sunday's game vs Miami is will therefore be important for the team to play more like they did Weeks 1 and 2 (organised, disciplined, reducing individual mistakes, complementary football etc.) but a win would be very useful.
I listened to the podcast on Catch-22 and his cohost let him know he was trending before the end of the podcast: he was already expressing some regret that that’s what went big
 

Jinhocho

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I would guess that the team was responsible for this but it isn’t clear if Lazar initiated it himself or fessed up on himself to the team and then got folks to edit it. He immediately starts downplaying the severity of what he said on the pod. I think he realized it. He and Barth can get a little “carried away” sometimes and he shouldn’t have let that bleed into reporting.
Ultimately I don’t have a problem with him getting slapped on the wrist for this. It's a new regime in a tough situation. There is obvious frustration in the locker room. Mutiny happens in the NFL from time to time and it is very serious because if a coach loses a locker room it is incredibly difficult to cultivate culture and buy-in. Here we are not to that level. Players are merely frustrated. The team doesn't need their own reporter being hyperbolic and adding fuel to the frustration fire which also could undermine Mayo. When you are reporting but grossly exaggerate the situation you should be called out for it. And even if you take issue with my use of grossly here he admits himself he went too far.
Well it was noticed by people watching the podcast live, jerry thornton from the stool wanted to find the clip because people were tweeting about it so he went to get the podcast and it had been taken down and then it was put back up without that segment and then lazar called in later to walk it back. If it wasnt for the fact that the podcast was taken down, edited and put back up i think your explanation would be the correct one. If it turns out that that timeline is correct, then it will be. but from what i have seen those extra steps lead me in a different direction
 

Cellar-Door

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Well it was noticed by people watching the podcast live, jerry thornton from the stool wanted to find the clip because people were tweeting about it so he went to get the podcast and it had been taken down and then it was put back up without that segment and then lazar called in later to walk it back. If it wasnt for the fact that the podcast was taken down, edited and put back up i think your explanation would be the correct one. If it turns out that that timeline is correct, then it will be. but from what i have seen those extra steps lead me in a different direction
It's a live pod, as far as I can tell they immediately edited the replay as soon as it ended.

So basically he said it live, people were clipping it and talking about it, he wanted to walk it back. So as soon as the live pod ended, they pulled down the replay (it autouploads to youtube as it streams so it's available automatically) and pulled that part.
 

BaseballJones

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Patriots Unfiltered guys implying Mayo and AVP are not on the same page about when Drake Maye should play. Not a good look; hope this resolves next 1-2 weeks.
Coaches disagree with each other all the time. They'll work it out, and if they don't, Mayo has the final call. This stuff happens all the time in sports, and in businesses and organizations all over the world.
 

cshea

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It has seemed, going back to training camp, that Mayo and AVP have not been on the same page with regard to the QB. Maybe this is because of Mayo's poor messaging through the media but my impression has been that Mayo wants to put Maye out there but AVP does not. Even though Mayo has consistently said the QB call is ultimately his, he's deferring to AVP (and perhaps others, Wolf?). Mayo comes out with all the "Maye has been the better QB" sound bites then when it's AVP's turn in front of the mic it's "Brissett is better for us." There hasn't really been a consistent message coming from both of those guys mouths.

As for the mutiny report from Lazar that has been walked back, the truth is probably in the middle. Mutiny was probably too strong a term but there's undoubtably going to be frustration in the locker room from the other 51 players who watch Maye perform better in practice (if he is, and there are reports he's looked great) than Brissett but isn't getting an opportunity to play. Playing careers are too short, the players will never take the long term approach like a coaching staff and front office might. If Maye is better, they want him out there.
 

Cellar-Door

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Once again wildly conservative in a key spot and they lose the game despite giving up only 15 points.

I feel pretty comfortable saying he's a bottom 3 coach in the league at best
 

jsinger121

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Once again wildly conservative in a key spot and they lose the game despite giving up only 15 points.

I feel pretty comfortable saying he's a bottom 3 coach in the league at best
It’s very likely not having a true coaching search is going to set this organization back years.
 

Ed Hillel

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Maye is going to have to play soon. Maybe next week. He might be good enough to keep Mayo around for a while.
 
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It’s very likely not having a true coaching search is going to set this organization back years.
Should have had a real GM search first

Mayo and Wolf are both inept thus far.

Quick turnarounds or at least showing signs of life aren’t impossible in the NFL. Shouldn’t be going backwards in year 1 of a rebuild
 

EddieYost

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Guys, I think you are forgetting about all the leadership skills Mayo picked up at Optum.
 

Cellar-Door

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Should have had a real GM search first

Mayo and Wolf are both inept thus far.

Quick turnarounds or at least showing signs of life aren’t impossible in the NFL. Shouldn’t be going backwards in year 1 of a rebuild
I'll hold judgement on Wolf, his most important move by a ton is Maye (and honestly Polk looks like he's good). His biggest FA signing got blood clots. He's very much at "incomplete". Mayo has been outright bad at measurable things.
 

Dave Stapleton

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Post game locker room vibe at mutiny level yet?
So this is my fear at this point. If it wasn’t mutiny level before I can’t see how the players don’t understand that this was a winnable game with capable QB play. Mayo (and the team) has/have painted themselves into a corner. With all the gratuitous talk about being different and a players coach now he has to ensure he’s not Carol 2.0. If he moves to Maye following mutiny … everyone looks bad.
 

jsinger121

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This and GM. We are already on rebuild attempt #2 post TB12. I am pretty confident we will be on attempt #3 come spring 2026.
I don’t think this attempt #2. BB never tried to rebuild the team at all the way it should have been once Brady walked out the door. It was a half ass process.
 

Ed Hillel

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I don’t think this attempt #2. BB never tried to rebuild the team at all the way it should have been once Brady walked out the door. It was a half ass process.
He drafted a QB first half of round 1 and went on a spending spree on offense. The moves did not work, but clearly there was an attempt.
 

NortheasternPJ

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Oh right. Forgot he started as a VP. I bet that made a lot of people super happy.
Weird he got the job a year after the Optum Club at Gillette Stadium opened. Must be coincidence.

I don’t hate Mayo and hope he’s a good coach and he was a smart player and a good guy but I need more than this.
 

tims4wins

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I don’t think this attempt #2. BB never tried to rebuild the team at all the way it should have been once Brady walked out the door. It was a half ass process.
He drafted a QB first half of round 1 and went on a spending spree on offense. The moves did not work, but clearly there was an attempt.
You're both right. BB immediately screwed up in 2020 with the Cam signing. Everything after that was a downstream effect. BB wouldn't accept tanking, so he tried to build the best team he could each year, which successively led to worse teams each year until they flat out sucked in 2023. Now the true rebuild begins, and it starts at a place of having extremely bare cupboards.
 

Cellar-Door

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He drafted a QB first half of round 1 and went on a spending spree on offense. The moves did not work, but clearly there was an attempt.
Bill went for a re-load, it kind of worked for a year, but the QB pick was a miss so it didn't work.
This is a tear down, they're going to be terrible this year, probably bad next year too. Bill was trying (per owner expectations) to make the playoffs every year. He made it with a rookie QB. Problem is that kind of approach really need the QB to get better every year. Instead the QB was incapable of performing with anything but a good O-line, so he got worse.... and that was it for Bill.
 

Salem's Lot

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The entire front office and coaching staff is incompetent. Kraft should gut the whole thing after the season.
 

j-man

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Bill went for a re-load, it kind of worked for a year, but the QB pick was a miss so it didn't work.
This is a tear down, they're going to be terrible this year, probably bad next year too. Bill was trying (per owner expectations) to make the playoffs every year. He made it with a rookie QB. Problem is that kind of approach really need the QB to get better every year. Instead the QB was incapable of performing with anything but a good O-line, so he got worse.... and that was it for Bill.
no wonder bill likes bo nix he looks like mac jones lol
 
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The entire front office and coaching staff is incompetent. Kraft should gut the whole thing after the season.
he’s the one who anointed Wolf and Mayo without any semblance of a search.

Should have gone for a true reboot instead of assuming getting rid of BB was going to fix things
 
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