Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.

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Cellar-Door

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Tannehill was a good QB when healthy in MIA. Henry certainly was a big part of the success he had in TEN, though arguably the O-line was more important for both, as seen when both significantly declined in performance under the new OC when the line regressed.
 

SMU_Sox

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Side note but Tannehill played well. He was tough as nails. Guy would hang in the pocket and take huge hits. Really good layering the ball over the middle of the field. Why is he taking strays? Titans had a good offense based on a lot of play action and deep shots to go with a strong running game. By this logic was AJ Brown not a pro bowl caliber receiver there because Derrick Henry helped bring down the linebackers? My take is that they were all good and each one helped out the others.
 

SMU_Sox

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Tannehill was a good QB when healthy in MIA. Henry certainly was a big part of the success he had in TEN, though arguably the O-line was more important for both, as seen when both significantly declined in performance under the new OC when the line regressed.
Beat me to it.
 

FL4WL3SS

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So Derrick Henry had no bearing on the success that the Titans had. It was all Vrabel's magic pixie dust that he used to elevate Tannehill? Not that Tannehill had success because teams were putting 9 in the box to try to stop Henry.
I'm not sure what you're arguing, you're literally making up and argument that I didn't make. Putting it in bold doesn't change that.

You are trying to call Vrable a bad coach because he had DH, which is stupid.
 

FL4WL3SS

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Oh no more bold posts?

Could it be because Henry had only put up one 1000 yard season in his first three seasons before Tannehill joined the team where he subsequently put up career numbers of 1500 and 2000 yards in Tannehill's first two seasons? Weird.

Those must have been some shitty 9 men fronts.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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I'm not sure what you're arguing, you're literally making up and argument that I didn't make. Putting it in bold doesn't change that.

You are trying to call Vrable a bad coach because he had DH, which is stupid.
Vrabel was a Patriot for a long time and the subject of a lot of conversation since. If you’re going to argue someone else’s stance is stupid, perhaps spell the guy’s name right.
 
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Tannehill was a good QB when healthy in MIA. Henry certainly was a big part of the success he had in TEN, though arguably the O-line was more important for both, as seen when both significantly declined in performance under the new OC when the line regressed.
I think people generally forget there was a very narrow window when Tennessee actually had a good bit of talent on that offense.

Did Tannehill benefit from Henry and Brown? Of course. That doesn’t mean he wasn’t a pretty solid QB (he was quite good at times when healthy which was the big issue).

It also doesn’t speak too much one way or the other about Vrabel.

Vrabel seems to be able to get guys motivated, playing good fundamentals and from the outside Tennessee seemed prepared and competitive most of the time. I do think he needs a brilliant or at least creative OC because he’s conservative and boring by default.

I think he’s a bad fit for the Pats simply because unless he truly would come with Josh McDaniels, he’s not what the Pats need to develop Maye

I’d rather take a shot on Daboll if (when?) he gets fired if we’re going down the road of retreads
 

NomarsFool

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Wolf is obviously terrible, but some of the poor decisions on the roster have to be on Mayo and the coaching staff, too. I’d have to think that when discussing resigning Dugger that Wolf talked a lot to Mayo about whether he was worth what it would take to resign him, and how they would use him in the offense, how he was trending as a player, etc. It’s very possible that Dugger’s shortcomings are highly impacted by what else has happened with the team this year or maybe he fell off a cliff, which happens with athletes all the time. But, the simplest explanation is that Wolf and Mayo screwed up.
BTW, was the Onwenu extension also this past offseason? Why aren’t we talking about him, because that hardly seems like a wise one at the moment. Similarly, maybe Onwenu hasn’t been good because of the rest of the line’s failings, but he’s hardly looking like one of the best guards in the league out there.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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Wolf is obviously terrible, but some of the poor decisions on the roster have to be on Mayo and the coaching staff, too. I’d have to think that when discussing resigning Dugger that Wolf talked a lot to Mayo about whether he was worth what it would take to resign him, and how they would use him in the offense, how he was trending as a player, etc. It’s very possible that Dugger’s shortcomings are highly impacted by what else has happened with the team this year or maybe he fell off a cliff, which happens with athletes all the time. But, the simplest explanation is that Wolf and Mayo screwed up.
BTW, was the Onwenu extension also this past offseason? Why aren’t we talking about him, because that hardly seems like a wise one at the moment. Similarly, maybe Onwenu hasn’t been good because of the rest of the line’s failings, but he’s hardly looking like one of the best guards in the league out there.
I think Wolf, like a lot of Pats fans and Kraft, assumed the defense would be in good hands with Mayo and that BB and Steve B weren’t going to be major losses.

There were people here literally making the argument that Mayo is as much of a student of the game as BB and he was the real brains (not Steve) behind the D recently.

I don’t know what, if anything, Mayo does as far as gameplanning or coaching the D but it’s clear that whatever his influence is, and Covington, cannot get the same level of production out of Bill’s “groceries”.

That should have been expected and obvious but given Wolf basically didn’t touch the D externally in the off-season other than bringing in trash (Watts, Hawkins, Takitaki) to replace low end players (Guy, Phillips/Mills, Mack Wilson). It’s clear he thought the players were good regardless of coaching.

Dugger/Peppers being redundant, paying Tavai and extending Godchaux…it’s like they didn’t realize Bb wasn’t around anymore or underestimated both Belichicks’ skill at putting players in position to succeed

Onwenu is weird. They clearly paid him in hopes of being a tackle but abandoned that plan quickly. He looks some combination of out of shape or just sloppy a lot of times. Could be coaching, could be lazy now that he’s paid, could be a product of playing next to trash making him look worse
 

lexrageorge

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I think Wolf, like a lot of Pats fans and Kraft, assumed the defense would be in good hands with Mayo and that BB and Steve B weren’t going to be major losses.

There were people here literally making the argument that Mayo is as much of a student of the game as BB and he was the real brains (not Steve) behind the D recently.

I don’t know what, if anything, Mayo does as far as gameplanning or coaching the D but it’s clear that whatever his influence is, and Covington, cannot get the same level of production out of Bill’s “groceries”.

That should have been expected and obvious but given Wolf basically didn’t touch the D externally in the off-season other than bringing in trash (Watts, Hawkins, Takitaki) to replace low end players (Guy, Phillips/Mills, Mack Wilson). It’s clear he thought the players were good regardless of coaching.

Dugger/Peppers being redundant, paying Tavai and extending Godchaux…it’s like they didn’t realize Bb wasn’t around anymore or underestimated both Belichicks’ skill at putting players in position to succeed

Onwenu is weird. They clearly paid him in hopes of being a tackle but abandoned that plan quickly. He looks some combination of out of shape or just sloppy a lot of times. Could be coaching, could be lazy now that he’s paid, could be a product of playing next to trash making him look worse
Part of the problem is that Mayo doesn't have Bill's groceries. Judon is gone (which was a great move by Wolf, especially getting a 3rd, as he is looking utterly washed in Atlanta). Barmore's career is likely over. Bentley was hurt. Guys like Dugger, Godchaux, Jonathan Jones are all over the hill and rapidly declining. The others are JAGs at best. Even Peppers is 29 and has seen his best days already. Age is not kind to defensive players in the league.

99% of posters here would have been apoplectic if the Pats failed to resign Onwenu. Unclear what happened there, but he's never going to be an above average NFL left tackle regardless, and is probably just average for right tackle, and slightly above average for guard. That's just who he is; not a foundational piece by any means, but a useful contributor to a solid OL if the other pieces are around him.
 

Silverdude2167

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Part of the problem is that Mayo doesn't have Bill's groceries. Judon is gone (which was a great move by Wolf, especially getting a 3rd, as he is looking utterly washed in Atlanta). Barmore's career is likely over. Bentley was hurt. Guys like Dugger, Godchaux, Jonathan Jones are all over the hill and rapidly declining. The others are JAGs at best. Even Peppers is 29 and has seen his best days already. Age is not kind to defensive players in the league.
Judon played four games last year, and the other guys' regressing is 100% a coaching issue. While Barmore is a valid point, you can swap him out for Gonzalez.

Say what you will about the groceries, but Bill would have this defense as league average at a minimum, as a fall from 10th to close to last with the same players on the coaching staff.
 

NomarsFool

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I thought Onwenu was supposed to be a top 10 guard who they thought could be a starting caliber / functional RT (like top 30) in a pinch. Unfortunately, he seems like neither.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Judon played four games last year, and the other guys' regressing is 100% a coaching issue. While Barmore is a valid point, you can swap him out for Gonzalez.
You make a fair point about Judon but the second statement seems questionable.

Are you certain that veteran NFL players regression is 100% coaching? Variance, physical or other issues etc couldn't explain their performance decline? Or that even if those are factors exist, good coaching can correct them?
 

E5 Yaz

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What would constitute a "freefall" given two Buffalo games and a game against the Chargers?
 

NomarsFool

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If they get blown out in an embarrassing fashion (poor in game management, obvious coaching mistakes, etc) I think that would give Kraft all the cover he needs. He may be a proud man, but even he must be questioning whether he made the right decision. At this point, it’s just really hard to see what Mayo brings to the table. I’m sure he is likely to get better at in game management, could hardly be worse, but the defense game plan is atrocious and he seems to have no real leadership of the staff. The press stuff, I think, is only annoying to the press and the fans. I don’t think it impacts anything on the field. So, it’s not good for the Patriots’ brand, but I don’t think it is impacting wins and losses. His general cluelessness, though, I would think would impact the interest in talented coaches wanting to come here. It seems like it impacted their ability to hire an OC, and it will be even worse this offseason as people know Mayo is on the hot seat.
 

dirtynine

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If and when the Krafts decide Mayo was the wrong move, could they attempt a face-saving move like kicking him upstairs? Make up an important title for him like Director of Football Culture (not operations) and put him in charge of intangible things like establishing the Patriot Way, building relationships with the community, being an ambassador to players, etc. Pay him enough where he’d stand next to Kraft and say something like “I really think the best way I can contribute to this great organization is to affect more than Xs and Os. I love being on the field, on the sidelines, in the film room… but this year has given me perspective. I want more than that, and I’m appreciative to Thundercat for standing by me and giving me this incredible chance. I’m really excited about the incoming coaching crew we’re building, and this team’s future.”
 

8slim

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If and when the Krafts decide Mayo was the wrong move, could they attempt a face-saving move like kicking him upstairs? Make up an important title for him like Director of Football Culture (not operations) and put him in charge of intangible things like establishing the Patriot Way, building relationships with the community, being an ambassador to players, etc. Pay him enough where he’d stand next to Kraft and say something like “I really think the best way I can contribute to this great organization is to affect more than Xs and Os. I love being on the field, on the sidelines, in the film room… but this year has given me perspective. I want more than that, and I’m appreciative to Thundercat for standing by me and giving me this incredible chance. I’m really excited about the incoming coaching crew we’re building, and this team’s future.”
Why?
 

NDame616

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If and when the Krafts decide Mayo was the wrong move, could they attempt a face-saving move like kicking him upstairs? Make up an important title for him like Director of Football Culture (not operations) and put him in charge of intangible things like establishing the Patriot Way, building relationships with the community, being an ambassador to players, etc. Pay him enough where he’d stand next to Kraft and say something like “I really think the best way I can contribute to this great organization is to affect more than Xs and Os. I love being on the field, on the sidelines, in the film room… but this year has given me perspective. I want more than that, and I’m appreciative to Thundercat for standing by me and giving me this incredible chance. I’m really excited about the incoming coaching crew we’re building, and this team’s future.”
I'd imagine when our long standing nightmare concludes Mayo will find a job maybe as DC or once again linebacker coach and actually try to work his way up to his next head coaching gig.
 

jsinger121

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I'd imagine when our long standing nightmare concludes Mayo will find a job maybe as DC or once again linebacker coach and actually try to work his way up to his next head coaching gig.
I can't imagine anyone is going to even give a DC job after this disaster and he probably will have to just go back to LB coach to work his way up. I know I would never hire him as a DC after this failed season.
 

Cellar-Door

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I can't imagine anyone is going to even give a DC job after this disaster and he probably will have to just go back to LB coach to work his way up. I know I would never hire him as a DC after this failed season.
College DC will be available, big personality bet he recruits pretty decently
 

Eric Fernsten's Disco Mustache

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I can't imagine anyone is going to even give a DC job after this disaster and he probably will have to just go back to LB coach to work his way up. I know I would never hire him as a DC after this failed season.
Guys who don't cut it as HCs are almost always brought back into other peoples' staffs, especially if they are popular with their peers and good in the locker room, as Mayo reportedly is.

He won't be a DC somewhere next year, unless it's at the college level. But he could be in a vague 'advisor' role on someone's' staff. Become a college or pro DC in a few years.

He might eventually be a good college HC at a not-premier school , where scheme stuff matters less, but where being charming and charismatic matter more.


Edit: what @Cellar-Door said
 

jsinger121

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Perhaps Carolina pummeling AZ today should play into the freeeee fallin' equation.
Agreed. Carolina is showing something down the stretch where you can't say the same about the Patriots. Like what have the Patriots actually built in year 1 under Mayo other than show that Drake Maye is good. I can't think of one other thing or even a program they are trying to build.
 
Oct 12, 2023
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If and when the Krafts decide Mayo was the wrong move, could they attempt a face-saving move like kicking him upstairs? Make up an important title for him like Director of Football Culture (not operations) and put him in charge of intangible things like establishing the Patriot Way, building relationships with the community, being an ambassador to players, etc. Pay him enough where he’d stand next to Kraft and say something like “I really think the best way I can contribute to this great organization is to affect more than Xs and Os. I love being on the field, on the sidelines, in the film room… but this year has given me perspective. I want more than that, and I’m appreciative to Thundercat for standing by me and giving me this incredible chance. I’m really excited about the incoming coaching crew we’re building, and this team’s future.”
This might actually be a worse idea than keeping Mayo

They need to just get rid of him and do a full reboot.
 

dirtynine

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This might actually be a worse idea than keeping Mayo

They need to just get rid of him and do a full reboot.
If you don’t like his coaching, I can’t see how moving him to a non-football role is worse than having him be the coach. Maybe if he still has to do press conferences.
 

8slim

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So Kraft doesn’t have to admit a mistake? That seems like everyone’s #1 reason why he wouldn’t make a change after year 1.
I don’t think Kraft won’t make a change due to *admitting* a mistake. He won’t make a change because he still thinks Mayo can be a good HC. And that it’s too early to pull the plug.
 
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What do folks here think Kraft will take from this game? More evidence that Mayo and his staff continue to have growing pains (the punt, down ten, with 8 minutes left) or feeling impressed that they managed to keep the game close and have a shot at winning in tough conditions against a far superior team?
 

E5 Yaz

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What do folks here think Kraft will take from this game? More evidence that Mayo and his staff continue to have growing pains (the punt, down ten, with 8 minutes left) or feeling impressed that they managed to keep the game close and have a shot at winning in tough conditions against a far superior team?
It goes back to what RapSheet said: Unless it collapses completely, the Krafts won't feel compelled to act. A game like this doesn't move the needle toward making a change
 

jsinger121

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It goes back to what RapSheet said: Unless it collapses completely, the Krafts won't feel compelled to act. A game like this doesn't move the needle
They need two blowout losses at home to move the needle along with lots of empty seats the next two weekends.
 

j-man

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i throuht u guys done real well today if denver does not choke their last 2 games i feel like we can compete in buffalo
 

Harry Hooper

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Mayo isn’t getting canned, especially not after a competitive outing v Buffalo on the road.
Andrew Callahan agrees: Callahan: It's time to forget about Jerod Mayo getting fired (bostonherald.com)

Now, to the frustrated, I am with you.
To the shocked, I understand.
But to the trigger-happy, lay down your arms.
Mayo, by all accounts, is returning in 2025. Alex Van Pelt, however, is another story.
...
On merit, he deserves to stay; a case that’s harder to make for defensive coordinator DeMarcus Covington.
But it’s not about merit this season.
It’s not about what you want.
It’s not about what I think.
It’s about the Krafts; what they see, what they want, what they believe.
Even in defeat.
 

gammoseditor

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It goes back to what RapSheet said: Unless it collapses completely, the Krafts won't feel compelled to act. A game like this doesn't move the needle toward making a change
I know this was RapSheet’s report and not your impression, but if this isn’t a “complete collapse “ I’m wondering what is.
 

Cellar-Door

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I know this was RapSheet’s report and not your impression, but if this isn’t a “complete collapse “ I’m wondering what is.
They lost by 1 score as a 14 point underdog. That's not a collapse.
A collapse would be 3 blowouts and a locker room in rebellion.
 

gammoseditor

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They lost by 1 score as a 14 point underdog. That's not a collapse.
A collapse would be 3 blowouts and a locker room in rebellion.
I’m more looking at the whole season where they beat and unprepared Bengals team week 1 and have gone 2-12 since despite playing the easiest schedule among the rest of the shitty teams. Combined with Mayo walking back a statement every other week.
 

Justthetippett

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Mayo will get another shot next year. I'd be surprised if AVP is back. McDaniels on the sideline would not surprise me at all. Covington needs a gray beard up in the booth or something, but I think he'll be back too. Unlike AVP, he's connected with the organization. Now, get some talent/playmakers and let's see if that makes the coaches look a little better.
 

E5 Yaz

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I’m more looking at the whole season where they beat and unprepared Bengals team week 1 and have gone 2-12 since despite playing the easiest schedule among the rest of the shitty teams. Combined with Mayo walking back a statement every other week.
Right, but RapSheet's comment was directly about the final three weeks of the season
 
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