Hold the Mayo? Evaluating Patriots coaching.
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While I get that, the criticism there isn't that the run D is bad, it's that you are calling your players soft as an excuse. Bill points out all those guys played tough football last year. Sure they are missing 3 key guys (1 by choice) but there are a whole bunch of guys out there who played a lot of snaps of tough defense last year.
Which is why the reports came out that after Mac Year 2 BB wanted to trade him and sign Mayfield (or less charitably, Davis Mills) and Krafted told him no.
More broadly, the one thing BB is right about is that last year the defense played its damn ass off under extremely adverse circumstances since the offense provided zero help. This year the defense is rolling over to the fucking Jaguars. That's about as damning an indictment as it gets.
Mayo wants to ‘demanding without demeaning’
Yet he rips Polk last week and the whole team this week. I want to like Mayo but he is over his head right now
Yet he rips Polk last week and the whole team this week. I want to like Mayo but he is over his head right now
I like him, too, but yeah...not a good look. Antonio Pierce with the Raiders is in some general sense analogous: ex-player; deep ties to their organization; supposedly has "it" (some sort of charisma or whatever); support from players; inexperienced as a coach; no particular analytical bent. Turns out the latter two are much more important than all the vibes stuff. That said, i think Pierce is a loser; still have hope for Mayo.
Ok, but what BB said is fair game when you call the players “soft.” He was defending the players. Good for him imo.
Well, I don't want to start a whole debate about the Belichick era, and no one defended him more or longer than I did... still, I feel like I have to point out that two week stretch last year where the Patriots were outscored 72-3. And the 2000 Pats gave up 130+ rushing yards 8 times (in other words, in half their games).
Of course I think (hope?) we all know Belichick is the greatest coach of all time, so any comparison to him -- much like quarterback play post-Brady -- will be inherently unfair and unkind.
Still, I think it's a little early to judge what Mayo's defenses (as Head Coach) look like compared to Belichick's, particularly as noted given all the injuries. And of course, who knows what things would look like if Mayo had Hall of Famers & Hall of Very Goods on this defense in their prime (Vrabel, Wilfork, Seymour, Law, Milloy, Harrison, Hightower, Mayo himself, McCourty, Revis, etc.)
Would also be interested to hear about this.
Not sure how your post answers the one you quoted, neither Klassen (nor I) was saying that Bill's teams never had bad defensive games, or even mediocre seasons (though honestly this year's team will have to get a LOT better on D not to be significantly worse than any defense in the BB era). The point was that even if they got beat, it looked like they all knew what the plan was, there was a coherent gameplan, the players had clear roles and knew them. Klassen was pointing out that there doesn't seem to be a plan watching this defense and the players aren't just performing poorly in terms of execution (getting beat by speed, missing tackles, losing on strength) though there is plenty of that, they also often look like they aren't sure what they are supposed to be doing.
I also really think people underestimate the talent now and/or overestimate the talent in the past. Gonzo was a much better regarded (arguably) better player than McCourty... Bill recognized his limitations and made him a great safety... Vrable played 4 full NFL seasons without a single start before he came to NE. And the bulk of many of those defenses were JAGs... the street FA DBs that became longterm starters, Castoffs like Ninkovich. BB was the absolute master at finding what a guy could and couldn't do, and building around the combined strengths/weaknesses of his team, his opponent, and being willing to completely change things when those things changed.
Is it unfair to compare Mayo to Bill... maybe, but at the same time.... compare him to anyone you want, this defense looks wildly disorganized
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Is there any actual reason to think Mayo-coached Pats teams will be especially noteworthy defensively?
He’s not buying the groceries, he’s not (AFAIK) calling the plays. Is he installing gameplans? He doesn’t have a track record of doing any of that.
What’s his big success story as position coach? Developing Tavai from 2nd round flop castoff to useful player? Doesn’t seem to be working his magic now on these LB’s who look lost without Bentley.
He was a good LB as a player but that’s hardly evidence that he can be a good coach or that we should expect top tier defenses from him and his staff moving forward.
He’s not buying the groceries, he’s not (AFAIK) calling the plays. Is he installing gameplans? He doesn’t have a track record of doing any of that.
What’s his big success story as position coach? Developing Tavai from 2nd round flop castoff to useful player? Doesn’t seem to be working his magic now on these LB’s who look lost without Bentley.
He was a good LB as a player but that’s hardly evidence that he can be a good coach or that we should expect top tier defenses from him and his staff moving forward.
Front 7 on D playing undisciplined, with poor run fits. Covington (Mayo’s “guy”) not getting much from his game plans other than allowing weekly stampedes. Pressure has disappeared. Some of the writers have inferred here and there that maybe J. Montgomery isn’t reaching guys. Who’s the ILB coach? Oh yeah… first-time coach D. Hightower. Granted, Bentley’s injury hurts, but Tavai et al aren’t really THAT bad. In addition to Mayo not showing improvement thus far in any area as a coach, those are the three guys that aren’t getting it done on D, imo.
I think assessing the offensive coaching is a little harder given the OL carousel. I will, however, turn the spotlight a little on the no-name WR coach who was a quality control coach at Washington. Presumably he was thought to help as a Polk whisperer, but that hasn’t worked out to this point. The rest of the receiver corps is a bit of a mess vis-a-vis route running, spacing, and hands, save for Pop.
Mayo had no coaching network to tap into to assemble a staff, so he had to rely on Wolf and others in the front office. Sometime shortly after taking over, Mayo indicated that he wanted his coaches to be good teachers. This seems to be a problem. Additionally, Mayo said that he wasn’t going to get every selection right with his first staff and that it was logical to expect some change after the first year. At this point, it’s difficult to identify anyone who should STAY other than maybe Pelligrino and Belichick.
I think assessing the offensive coaching is a little harder given the OL carousel. I will, however, turn the spotlight a little on the no-name WR coach who was a quality control coach at Washington. Presumably he was thought to help as a Polk whisperer, but that hasn’t worked out to this point. The rest of the receiver corps is a bit of a mess vis-a-vis route running, spacing, and hands, save for Pop.
Mayo had no coaching network to tap into to assemble a staff, so he had to rely on Wolf and others in the front office. Sometime shortly after taking over, Mayo indicated that he wanted his coaches to be good teachers. This seems to be a problem. Additionally, Mayo said that he wasn’t going to get every selection right with his first staff and that it was logical to expect some change after the first year. At this point, it’s difficult to identify anyone who should STAY other than maybe Pelligrino and Belichick.
Wasn’t the story that the last couple seasons he was the brains behind the D’s design and gameplan, while Steve called the plays on game day? Obviously that might have been nonsense, but I’m pretty sure that was the story.
So that would be a reason to think he can build a strong defense.
Listening to Andrew Callahan on 98.5 right now. He mentioned a post-London-game conversation with a player (I missed which one) who agreed with Mayo that the team is playing soft and is selfish.
Callahan's POV is that there are "a lot of independent contractors" on the Pats right now, and they're not "rowing in the same direction".
This makes sense to me. No one thought the Pats were going to be a good team this season. Stands to reason that players are out there for themselves -- auditioning for other teams if they're pending FAs or likely to be released after the season.
Needless to say, it's Mayo's job to prevent this.
Callahan's POV is that there are "a lot of independent contractors" on the Pats right now, and they're not "rowing in the same direction".
This makes sense to me. No one thought the Pats were going to be a good team this season. Stands to reason that players are out there for themselves -- auditioning for other teams if they're pending FAs or likely to be released after the season.
Needless to say, it's Mayo's job to prevent this.
And if he can’t then he should be one and done. They don’t have time to waste a rookie QB salary on a joke coach.
This is what happens on bad teams, but you'd also think players would realize GMs review all the tape and talk to each other, so putting hero ball on tape or being a locker room issue is not going to help them. Yes, the coach should control this, but these are also grown men and professionals (or so they tell us).
I guess that's all I meant -- I don't feel qualified to say whether defensive players "knew what the plan was" and "there was a coherent gameplan." I haven't watched the All-22, and even if I did I'm not sure I would know what I'm seeing. Still, Mayo was by all accounts very involved with the defense the last few seasons, right? And I have a hard time believing Belichick would have entrusted him with that role if he didn't believe in Mayo's ability to put together a "coherent gameplan."
Again, we agree: Belichick is the greatest coach of all time, including at putting guys in positions to succeed. Still, I think:
1) I'm not sure if we would be saying that if we were writing about Belichick after, say, Week 7 in 2000 or 1991 (although recognizing he had won 2 Super Bowls as a defensive coordinator by that time and had been coaching in the league for 3 decades unlike Mayo), and
2) I think it helped Belichick that in addition to diamonds in the rough like Vrabel and Ninko he also had blue chippers like Seymour, Wilfork, Law, Milloy, Bruschi, etc. -- I don't think Mayo has many of those guys right now, in part because of injury, in part because Wolf seems to have been terrible at assembling talent, and perhaps in part because he's not putting guys in a position to succeed as Belichick would have.
Ultimately, I agree with you: Mayo has been bad at literally everything so far other than drafting Drake Maye, from speaking to the media to putting a team on the field that can compete. I guess I just still feel like when everything is this bad it's hard for me to identify who's responsible for what.
Which is why Mayo's comments about being fine with players "using the media to send messages" and that "if you believe you're the best player in the league, then say it" were awful to me. Why would you not only not try to get the team in line and focused on the collective, but actually encourage guys to get their own agendas out there? I think the dude is completley out of his depth.
And then there's this quote by Bourne:
Guys are getting tired during long drives? Isn't Mayo's brother the strength and conditioning coach as well? This is a mess.
This is as close as we'll get to BB taking a victory lap - and I'm here for it. The team sucks, I'm fine with the architect of the greatest run in NFL history twisting the knife after having (and continuing to have) all the blame piled on his doorstep.
Jerod Mayo is a softer spoken Mike Singletary...and if Mike Singletary were soft spoken, then what fucking use would he be as a coach?
We all fully expect growing pains for new coaches, but if you're going to have hope for their future you need something to hang your hopes on. Why are we hopeful that Mayo is going to be a good coach? Seriously. Name the part of his coaching repertoire that you can point at as a shining spot for him to lean on. I'll wait.
If he was part of the drafting process? Eh.
Free agents (signing or swaying)? Yuck.
Re-signs? Eh.
Offense? Yuck.
Defense? He took a borderline top 10 unit with injuries last year and made them a bottom 5 unit, so...thats neat.
Game management? Yuck.
Locker room presence? Non existent.
Eliminating the noise for his team? The man is a walking amplifier.
The only reason we had to be hopeful coming into the season was that BB seemed to like him. Well, BB also liked Matt Patricia and Joe Judge.
Mayo had a whole offseason to prepare and is now halfway through his first season. If this was Mayo's 90 day performance evaluation for a new job, his boss would go through the job description, note that Mayo has been below average for every requirement expected, and send him to the unemployment line. That doesn't benefit the team now, but barring some really serious progress in places that matter over the rest of the season, Mayo needs to go. There probably isn't a single thing that he brings to the table that any candidate walking in the door couldn't do. In fact, I'd argue the only thing he would bring - continuity - would be a negative, not a positive.
But that's kind of the crux of the issue. A coach needs to do SOMETHING well. I don't care what it is. Mayo's had enough time to at least show us a glimmer of something somewhere. What is it? What's the one thing he even does slightly above average?
Totally, I'm with you. This has been as bad as it could have been, no disagreement there. Judging by these games and his comments to the press, Mayo looks totally overmatched and unprepared for this role. It would be easy to pile on -- and frankly, maybe correct to do so as well.
Still...
There has to be a reason Belichick trusted him to work with the defense the last few years and he was so highly regarded that Kraft was afraid to lose him, right? Even from this much maligned ESPN article, there are nuggets in here beyond just Kraft liking what he saw from across a lounge at Ben Gurion airport:
I guess despite being incredibly down on this team I'm still hoping that Mayo can give us something -- anything -- to give us hope for the future.
Yeah, and now it's week 7 and Bourne is talking about the team's conditioning being an issue, so currently Mayo doesn't even have that "take them to the hill" nugget to fall back on. It's grim right now.
Right, that's particularly upsetting if true. To your point, conditioning feels like the lowest-hanging of all the fruits.
Especially when the HC's brother is elevated to strength and conditioning coach replacing a guy who was part of three Super Bowl Championships for a team whose conditioning was a strong suit even when they sucked in these past few years. But I digress.
The more I seer and hear, the more I'm convinced that Mayo and Wolf orchestrated a small scale coup to get Kraft to can BB so they could have the place to themselves, without any forethought about what they'd do once they got rid of the Big Bad Man.
I am not a crank.
When have all these long drives transpired this season? It's hard for me to put much stock in Bourne's comments being literally accurate. It's probably more him sort of thinking out loud and trying to identify the "missing element" in 2024. You have to come up with some explanation when you rule out in your mind wholly inadequate talent as the reason.
7-9, 10-7, 8-9, 4-13. That's largely why Bill is gone.
Bill is hard to work with and when the team isn't winning people don't want to deal with that. I'm not judging it, just saying that's what happens frequently.
I don't think anyone needed to stage a coup. Kraft's been upset since Bill convinced him it was good to let Brady walk.
.500 and then a bad year after 6 Championships in 20 years doesn't seem like a great reason. I'm thrilled with the move. I don't need to see his game plans against my rookie quarterbacks anymore, I don't need to see that ever again in my life.
He put together the worst roster in football and the offense was horrific. It was time to move on, that they decided on Mayo and Wolff is the issue.
Yeah this. The roster was, and still is, one of the worst if not the worst in the league. Also, he's 72, there's really no track record for a coach that age continuing to have success in what is one of the most demanding jobs in sports.
I wouldn't have been upset if they gave him one more year, but I also think moving on from him after last year's debacle was a completely rational decision by Kraft. The thing I was pissed about at the time and still am is the failure to run an actual process to hire a new GM and coach. You are moving on from the GOAT coach, whoever comes next is going to have gigantic shoes to fill. Mayo could have been a candidate, maybe even the lead candidate, but how do you not bring in several other younger guys to see if any of them knock your socks off in the interview process?
I don't know how happy you'd be if they had Adam Peters and Ben Johnson instead of Wolff and Mayo, for instance. Not saying those were easy hires, but to me there were a lot of avenues they could have explored in order to set this team up for the future and they decided that Bill's guys without Bill was the way to go. Didn't like it from the start.
Personally, I would have given Bill another season.
But it's not wrong to note that the roster he built was, and still is, a disaster. Unfortunately it seems that the relationship between Bill and Kraft was irrevocably damaged over the past few years. It seemed this was destined to end on bad terms when Brady left and immediately won a SB while we went 7-9. I really think that sparked Kraft to look for the chance to dump Bill. 4-13 was it.
The Cam season was a weird one with all the COVID opt-outs, I'm not too sure much can be gleaned from it, really. But look at those two seasons in the middle.
Made the playoffs with MAC FUCKING JONES, which by itself is likely the greatest coaching achievement the league has ever seen. That alone would get any coach an immediate induction into Canton.
The next year they weren't as good as Mac was bad again but they were in a win-and-you're-in situation at 8-8 going into the last game of the year. Mac sucked and they lost.
Following this, BB apparently went to Kraft wanting to trade Mac and sign Baker Mayfield, if reports are to be believed. Kraft said no.
The following year Mac plays like the worst QB in the history of the league while the defense is largely excellent. Almost like BB knew Mac was no good. Once the season went haywire he gave Mac every single last chance to show he could play in the league and Mac failed every single test. Then lost his job to the SECOND worst QB the league has ever seen.
If Kraft had listened to BB the organization would be in a far better place today. But reports also had Kraft telling Mayo he was heir apparent five years ago....just before the Cam year.
Look I'm not totally serious that there was a palace coup. But honestly I wouldn't be surprised if there was. I can easily see Wolf and Mayo pushing hard on Kraft to get rid of the old man and they would take care of the rest.
BB is above .500 with this roster and Maye, and probably would have had a better draft as well.
For all the complaints about his drafting (valid or not), his highest draft pick in the last decade was 15. Maybe he would have been better if he was picking at the top of each round not in the middle or back.
No way. Like, not even the slightest chance, especially not with the injuries they've had.
I certainly understand that the team was not in GREAT shape last year, but I remember the defense playing hard down the stretch, certainly nothing like the defense that gave up Sunday against Jacksonville.
This season is an incredible object lesson to never say "Well it can't get worse." People said that last year and the team is much, much worse this year, even with a massive upgrade at QB, and there's zero indication that anyone in charge can get it turned around. We may well be staring into the abyss of a Browns-type run of futility going forward.
When McDaniels left the Colts at the altar to come back, wasn't there also reporting that in addition to a higher salary, more front office involvment/mentoring from BB, McDaniels got assurance that he was the heir? Not sure it was ever contractually written in the way Mayo's was but Josh ended up leaving for Vegas anyway.
I don't think Mayo was Bob's only heir. It seems like he got afraid of the brain drain and just kinda used it as leverage to keep guys he liked or thought had promise. I'd like to keep you, would you like to be the heir?
I don't think Mayo was Bob's only heir. It seems like he got afraid of the brain drain and just kinda used it as leverage to keep guys he liked or thought had promise. I'd like to keep you, would you like to be the heir?
It's also not wrong to point out the context of all of these supposedly terrible drafts. The tab was always going to come due for 20 years of dominance, and the subsequent bottom of the round draft picks they produced. You can only maneuver, and out run that for so long. I think he had more than earned the right to try and rebuild this team with actual, prime, draft capital. Which he never really had before. That said, for a variety of reasons, some of them petty and ego driven, Kraft wanted him gone. So be it. His shop, his rules. But he deserves every ounce of scorn that can he heaped upon him for not even conducting an outside search for a new coach, just handing it to a guy who's pretty clearly not ready for the job, and then retro-fitting the GM in after that. A half-assed, ill-conceived process all the way around.
I hadn't heard that Josh had been promised to be the heir. I would imagine he would not have taken the Raiders job had he been told that.
Of course Josh has been making pretty terrible non-Patriots decisions for his entire career, so what do I know.
I very well could be wrong but I thought that was part of the story back then. The Colts thing was 2019 and Josh left for Vegas in 2022. I thought he just got tired of waiting around and saw no signs Bill was remotely close to hanging them up.
Edit: Mayo's path seems somewhat similar to Josh. Josh was going to go to Indy but Kraft stepped in. Mayo reportedly went deep into the interview process with the Eagles in 2021 and was reportedly a finalist. He came back, and right after the 2022 season the Patriots had that weird press release that said they were going to hire a real OC and also Mayo was staying with an expanded role. Believe he had already been requested for interviews (Carolina?). Feels like Bob panicked and thought he was going to lose Jerod and that's when the heir plan went into the contract.
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I watched a bunch of the first and into the second half last night. I am a little surprised how much cover 2 they ran. ILBs are so out of their depth when trying to cover anyone. Tavai and others don't play with the requisite awareness in zone. Then you have bullshit where they can't figure out how to distribute coverage vs a bunch on the TD or 2 pt conversion. Whichever one it was that was on the bunch. Marcus Jones is supposed to take Brian Thomas. You can see Dugger even signal to him, mid-play, hey that's your man.
They have no eye-discipline. Jags played on that all day. They also don't have answers to the RPO slants and screens that keeps them gap-sound vs the run. Even if they had the players to actually fight back on some of these run plays they are being held back by their scheme. It's just a complete mess. They are not well-coached. I know injuries play a part here and these players largely suck but this is week 7. Having Marcus Jones bust coverage vs a bunch on goal to go is just brutal.
Offense wise these guys are just out of sync as blockers. It's to be expected of course given that you need continuity to get things done but they get no push. I saw Michael Jordan getting thrown down as a run blocker against a pitiful Jags front. They dry and run duo as their counter to OZ and they can't actually move folks with double teams.
Spacing wise it's fucked too. I am seeing awful spacing probably 30-40% of the time. Guys running into each other still too.
Sure talent is a part of this but coaching seems pretty damn bad too.
I feel like the drop-off in defensive scheme is beyond what anyone would think was possible. It is that bad.
They have no eye-discipline. Jags played on that all day. They also don't have answers to the RPO slants and screens that keeps them gap-sound vs the run. Even if they had the players to actually fight back on some of these run plays they are being held back by their scheme. It's just a complete mess. They are not well-coached. I know injuries play a part here and these players largely suck but this is week 7. Having Marcus Jones bust coverage vs a bunch on goal to go is just brutal.
Offense wise these guys are just out of sync as blockers. It's to be expected of course given that you need continuity to get things done but they get no push. I saw Michael Jordan getting thrown down as a run blocker against a pitiful Jags front. They dry and run duo as their counter to OZ and they can't actually move folks with double teams.
Spacing wise it's fucked too. I am seeing awful spacing probably 30-40% of the time. Guys running into each other still too.
Sure talent is a part of this but coaching seems pretty damn bad too.
I feel like the drop-off in defensive scheme is beyond what anyone would think was possible. It is that bad.
Let's assume for the moment that Mayo is just a bad coach, it doesn't improve much the rest of the year, and the bad coaching is all over the tape for anybody who knows where to look (per SMU's excellent post above, and many other posts from other posters as well).
The question really becomes whether anybody has the guts/incentives to tell this straight to Kraft and whether he would listen. Can Elliot Wolf go to Kraft in early January and say, "Listen Bob, this is painful and not how anybody here wanted things to go, but you have to understand that we're one of the worst coached teams in the league, everybody around the league knows it, and I don't see it improving"?
I don't really understand Wolf and Mayo's relationship that well but our best hope might be that Wolf realizes that he might need to shiv Mayo to keep his own job in the long run.
The question really becomes whether anybody has the guts/incentives to tell this straight to Kraft and whether he would listen. Can Elliot Wolf go to Kraft in early January and say, "Listen Bob, this is painful and not how anybody here wanted things to go, but you have to understand that we're one of the worst coached teams in the league, everybody around the league knows it, and I don't see it improving"?
I don't really understand Wolf and Mayo's relationship that well but our best hope might be that Wolf realizes that he might need to shiv Mayo to keep his own job in the long run.
Wolf probably has the "I didn't hire him" card to play, but when to use it? As soon as he does that and hires his own guy, the target gets painted on his back. It's probably in Wolf's best interest to hold on to that card for a little while at least.
I dunno. I feel like the target will be there starting next year no matter what. He has been involved for multiple years, he is a nepo hire of sorts that didn't really earn his current role with the Patriots based on a strong track record elsewhere and didn't face the competition of a national search, and by next summer he will have overseen two drafts and two off-seasons as formal GM. He'll basically own the roster at that point and I think its probably in his interest to maximize the chances that the team performs and looks headed in the right direction.
To me it is pretty simple and honestly kinda boring. This was always going to be a multi-year process because of the state of the roster and on top of that they had some tough injuries to the better unit (defense) this year. Mayo can also learn on the job. But, you have to improve over the year. And as it turns out they don't have a very tough schedule.
If they continue to look uncompetitive and win only 2 or 3 games, I would can Wolf and Mayo and do a real search, telegraphing before the end of the year that this was going to happen as much as possible so you could hopefully get good candidates signed and on board quickly. You are handing over the team to a GM with a top 3 or maybe 1 pick, basically a blank slate roster, and with a very young and promising QB. I think that would be attractive for candidates.
If they show life by the end of the year, then maybe he's getting the hang of things and guys are beginning to buy in to the program.
If they continue to look uncompetitive and win only 2 or 3 games, I would can Wolf and Mayo and do a real search, telegraphing before the end of the year that this was going to happen as much as possible so you could hopefully get good candidates signed and on board quickly. You are handing over the team to a GM with a top 3 or maybe 1 pick, basically a blank slate roster, and with a very young and promising QB. I think that would be attractive for candidates.
If they show life by the end of the year, then maybe he's getting the hang of things and guys are beginning to buy in to the program.
Thanks for putting yourself through rewatching that game.
RPO's and screens work against undisciplined linemen and tentative linebackers. They don't have any ILB that can cover, and with Peppers out they can't run a safety down low as a coverage LB...but, fuck it. Lets run a defense that stresses the linebackers!
The team is getting worse as the season grinds on, and that is absolutely an indictment on coaches being able to adjust or if they are losing the locker room. One of the biggest indicators to me is the penalties. Over their first 4 games, they had 19 total penalties (4.75 per game), which would put them as the second least penalized team in the league. The last 3 games? 9.3 penalties per game, dead last in the NFL. And it's not like the shitty offensive line is just trying to hold on for dear life. They have 8 holding calls so far this season, while teams like the Ravens, Chiefs, 49ers, Packers, and Steelers all have more.
They're only 7 games in, and despite getting significantly better performance out of their QB the last few games, the team has looked so much worse. They're going in the wrong direction, and they're doing it fast.
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