How do you feel about the past 20 years of John Henry and Tom Werner owning the team?

JimD

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Nov 29, 2001
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Hmmmm, would I trade the past 20 years in for those halcyon days of.......

- Sitting in a SPRING TRAINING game in Ft Myers listening to MFY fans from 18 to 80 berate me for 6 innings while the scubs from NY took a big lead. (note: said group left, Sox came back and won, and I care WAY too much about this)

- Spotting a fellow Sox fan in another staduim, looking at each other with that knowing glance that we were suffering for our sins and more than a little crazy for caring

- realizing each October that we have to go another lap around the sun for the hope to see this fucking team win a World Series, and there are fewer of them each time around

- staring down the seemingly real possiblity that it might never happen

- attending the funeral of my grandfather in spring 2004 wondering if I'll get to see that title before it's my turn in that casket

- dealing with my buddies father, brox born and raised, MFY fan through and through, say that he would like to see the Sox win out of pity for his son

If the cost of that is Theo in a gorilla suit, a year of Bobby the Fifth, handing out shitty contracts, and losing a generational superstar, I'll gladly pay those dues. These owner haven't been perfect, but can't see any other reality where Sox fans would have seen anywhere near this level of success.
This, a thousand times this. I mean, I guess it was fun to just show up at the park in the early 90's and buy cheap tickets to watch those crappy Butch Hobson-led teams and pretty much sit wherever we wanted after a few innings, but we were 15 years removed from the consistently competitive teams of the mid-1970's and the excitement of pre-Buckner 1986 had long since dissipated. It felt to me like it might take another 15 years to get back, despite Nick Cafardo's (?) writing every Sunday about future star Frankie Rodriguez (Will he be a pitcher or a shortstop in the majors?!?) and posting Kevin Morton's latest pitching line in New Britain. A few last place finishes in the past decade have been a lot more palatable when they are so quickly replaced by contending teams (thank you for the wild-card era, Bud Selig) and another title.

So, yeah, I'm grateful for the H/W/L era despite the occasional stumbles. This era of Red Sox prosperity was far from preordained when the Yawkey Trust sold the team.
 

lexrageorge

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Jul 31, 2007
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This, a thousand times this. I mean, I guess it was fun to just show up at the park in the early 90's and buy cheap tickets to watch those crappy Butch Hobson-led teams and pretty much sit wherever we wanted after a few innings, but we were 15 years removed from the consistently competitive teams of the mid-1970's and the excitement of pre-Buckner 1986 had long since dissipated. It felt to me like it might take another 15 years to get back, despite Nick Cafardo's (?) Peter Gammons writing every Sunday about future star Frankie Rodriguez (Will he be a pitcher or a shortstop in the majors?!?) and posting Kevin Morton's latest pitching line in New Britain. A few last place finishes in the past decade have been a lot more palatable when they are so quickly replaced by contending teams (thank you for the wild-card era, Bud Selig) and another title.

So, yeah, I'm grateful for the H/W/L era despite the occasional stumbles. This era of Red Sox prosperity was far from preordained when the Yawkey Trust sold the team.
It was Gammons.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Cafardo was obsessed with the Sox getting Cole Hammels from the Phillies. And the greatness of all Scott Boras clients.
 

curly2

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10-year-old me got to stay up late to watch the 1975 World Series, and I cried when it ended. 1978 was the worst loss of them all for me, and '86 was brutal.

At 56, I can recall bad ownership. After 1978, the Sox let Luis Tiant go to the Yankees because they would only offer him one year and the Yankees offered two. They traded Bill Lee for Stan Papi. Two years later they traded Fred Lynn in a bad deal and lost Fisk for nothing because they "forgot" to mail his contract. That was truly awful.

This group has let some players leave, like Mookie, and I'm puzzled over the Don Orsillo thing, but they've gotten a lot more right than wrong, as four world titles show. They also made Fenway SO much better than it used to be. How no one until Janet Marie Smith thought of putting seats on top of the Monster is mind-boggling, and opening up the concourse on the third-base side helped a lot.

I'm thrilled with this ownership.
 

jon abbey

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At 56, I can recall bad ownership. After 1978, the Sox let Luis Tiant go to the Yankees because they would only offer him one year and the Yankees offered two.
Maybe irritating at the time to you but looks like it was the right call by BOS ownership, as Tiant was solid but not special in 1979 and bad in 1980 (and out of baseball soon after).
 

curly2

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Maybe irritating at the time to you but looks like it was the right call by BOS ownership, as Tiant was solid but not special in 1979 and bad in 1980 (and out of baseball soon after).
Probably in a baseball sense, but it was only two years, and it was Tiant. He's one of the most entertaining players I've ever watched, and I think he might be the most-beloved athlete of color in Boston in any sport. And in 1980-81, the Red Sox gave Skip Lockwood a two-year contract for more than Tiant got from the Yankees and released him before the second season,
 

jose melendez

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IIRC, Harrington was obligated to put the club up for sale as per terms of the trust agreement with JRY Corp. The ballpark proposal was never expected to go anywhere; it was intended to help facilitate a sale by getting the city on board with a new ballpark. Given that it was Boston, it would easily had been 20-40 years before the park would have been built anyway. I recall all the hoops the Bruins had to jump through to get a new Garden built right next to the old one.
I did PR for the last years of the Yawkey Trust ownership through the sale of the team and on the new ballpark project. A few things

1. They absolutely were planning on building a new ballpark.
2. I'm not aware that they were deliberately letting the place crumble to help facilitate a new park, but the notion they put forward--and maybe even believed--that Fenway would become unsafe over time and could not be renovated was obviously not true.
3. Harrington had to sell the team and had a fiduciary responsibility to maximize revenue, but there was no timeline on when he had to sell. Harrington did that job very well--he got a ton of money. There were arguments that the Henry-Werner deal wasn't the highest, but those were mostly illusory. 1. The Prentice offer was never close to financed. 2. The McCourt offer, which was lower anyway, never made any sense. 3. Dolan made his offer public in the first round in specific violation of the bidding rules. Also, Dolan probably couldn't have been approved unless his brother sold the then-Indians, which would have slowed the process and cost money. 4. The O'Donnell bid wasn't as high, if I recall, as the Henry bid, but they spent a ton of time having McDonough, Shaughnessy and others lobby very publically for them to get a sweeter deal because they're "local."

The closest to accurate presentation I've read of what happened was in Mnookin's "Feeding the Monster."

As for the new ownership, they've won titles and mostly spent money, and mostly haven;t done anything contemptible. i have no reason to believe they're good people or that they aren't, but they aren't longtime friends with and continuing apologists for Donald Trump, unlike New England's most beloved owner.

My grievances are as follows, but not outweigh the winning.

1. I understand why they couldn't sign Mookie with the threshold, but stupidity put them in that position. Even now, I am still angry about it, and when the eventually give the deal that should have gone to Mookie to someone not as good--and they will--it will piss me off.

2. Dumping Orsillo was terrible. He was really good. O'Brien has a good voice and cadence but not much else. I wasn't crazy about dumping Trupiano either.

3. Badmouthing peiple on their way out the door. Old ownership did it, Red Auerbach did it, it still sucks. Trying to portray Tito as a pill popper was particularly shitty.

4. Their largely successful effort to internalize a ton of revenue under their banner with street closures and what not annoys me. Kenmore square was pretty dingy, but they, and other developers, tried really hard to cut out some local businesses.

But other than that, teams go up and down--winning a lot, even with regular mistakes is pretty good. I live in DC and while I have never been a fan of the local football team, I can easily understand how losing your team to an owner who is both incompetant and reprehnsible can really ruin the team and even the sport.
 

TDFenway

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Aug 21, 2016
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I did PR for the last years of the Yawkey Trust ownership through the sale of the team and on the new ballpark project. A few things

1. They absolutely were planning on building a new ballpark.
2. I'm not aware that they were deliberately letting the place crumble to help facilitate a new park, but the notion they put forward--and maybe even believed--that Fenway would become unsafe over time and could not be renovated was obviously not true.
3. Harrington had to sell the team and had a fiduciary responsibility to maximize revenue, but there was no timeline on when he had to sell. Harrington did that job very well--he got a ton of money. There were arguments that the Henry-Werner deal wasn't the highest, but those were mostly illusory. 1. The Prentice offer was never close to financed. 2. The McCourt offer, which was lower anyway, never made any sense. 3. Dolan made his offer public in the first round in specific violation of the bidding rules. Also, Dolan probably couldn't have been approved unless his brother sold the then-Indians, which would have slowed the process and cost money. 4. The O'Donnell bid wasn't as high, if I recall, as the Henry bid, but they spent a ton of time having McDonough, Shaughnessy and others lobby very publically for them to get a sweeter deal because they're "local."

The closest to accurate presentation I've read of what happened was in Mnookin's "Feeding the Monster."

As for the new ownership, they've won titles and mostly spent money, and mostly haven;t done anything contemptible. i have no reason to believe they're good people or that they aren't, but they aren't longtime friends with and continuing apologists for Donald Trump, unlike New England's most beloved owner.

My grievances are as follows, but not outweigh the winning.

1. I understand why they couldn't sign Mookie with the threshold, but stupidity put them in that position. Even now, I am still angry about it, and when the eventually give the deal that should have gone to Mookie to someone not as good--and they will--it will piss me off.

2. Dumping Orsillo was terrible. He was really good. O'Brien has a good voice and cadence but not much else. I wasn't crazy about dumping Trupiano either.

3. Badmouthing peiple on their way out the door. Old ownership did it, Red Auerbach did it, it still sucks. Trying to portray Tito as a pill popper was particularly shitty.

4. Their largely successful effort to internalize a ton of revenue under their banner with street closures and what not annoys me. Kenmore square was pretty dingy, but they, and other developers, tried really hard to cut out some local businesses.

But other than that, teams go up and down--winning a lot, even with regular mistakes is pretty good. I live in DC and while I have never been a fan of the local football team, I can easily understand how losing your team to an owner who is both incompetant and reprehnsible can really ruin the team and even the sport.
@jose melendez

The morning of the sale (12/21/01) I was shooting footage as a freelancer for ESPN and we caught O'Donnell in Twins buying a Yankees hat. By extending Aramark Harrington destroyed his bid. That was tribal as Harrington was not going to sell to the Irish guy from Everett who went to Harvard.

Prentice was a house of cards.

McCourt may have been closer than we thought as Selig then allowed him to buy the Dodgers from Murdoch who quickly flipped the parking lots to Boston developers and the Seaport suddenly appeared.

Selig wanted Henry to get the club and then allow Loria to escape from Montreal by giving him the Marlins. Remember at the time Selig was pushing to contract both Montreal and Minnesota and Loria was going to sue MLB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Major_League_Baseball_contraction_plan#:~:text=On November 6, 2001, the,Expos, cast the dissenting votes.

Selig did not want Charles Dolan in the club at the urging of Jerry Reinsdorf in Chicago who was snookered by Dolan 15 years earlier.

Fenway Park in 1999 was in rough shape and was spruced up for the All-Star Game which was planned to be a final last hurrah for the park. Joe Mooney told me back then "The old girl doesn't have many winters left' and I firmly believe he thought that to be the case.

For those of us who grew up in the city, it boggles the mind that Kenmore Square and upper Boylston Street are now upscale, and likewise the area around North Station and the old and new Garden.

From 1985

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZrvvsEu2bQ


John Henry and friends have given us 4 championships in 20 years so...............
 

jose melendez

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@jose melendez

The morning of the sale (12/21/01) I was shooting footage as a freelancer for ESPN and we caught O'Donnell in Twins buying a Yankees hat. By extending Aramark Harrington destroyed his bid. That was tribal as Harrington was not going to sell to the Irish guy from Everett who went to Harvard.

Prentice was a house of cards.

McCourt may have been closer than we thought as Selig then allowed him to buy the Dodgers from Murdoch who quickly flipped the parking lots to Boston developers and the Seaport suddenly appeared.

Selig wanted Henry to get the club and then allow Loria to escape from Montreal by giving him the Marlins. Remember at the time Selig was pushing to contract both Montreal and Minnesota and Loria was going to sue MLB.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Major_League_Baseball_contraction_plan#:~:text=On November 6, 2001, the,Expos, cast the dissenting votes.

Selig did not want Charles Dolan in the club at the urging of Jerry Reinsdorf in Chicago who was snookered by Dolan 15 years earlier.

Fenway Park in 1999 was in rough shape and was spruced up for the All-Star Game which was planned to be a final last hurrah for the park. Joe Mooney told me back then "The old girl doesn't have many winters left' and I firmly believe he thought that to be the case.

For those of us who grew up in the city, it boggles the mind that Kenmore Square and upper Boylston Street are now upscale, and likewise the area around North Station and the old and new Garden.

From 1985

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZrvvsEu2bQ


John Henry and friends have given us 4 championships in 20 years so...............
Can't beat Dana Hersey's rich baritone.

The McCourt idea was always based on the idea of a land swap, which was always weird, because his idea was something like he'd give his land to the Yawkey Trust and then build the stadium the land they owned or some such. I will say, the seaport was coming McCourt lots or no. My college girlfriend wrote her thesis on the seaport planning process and it was well underway by the time she graduated in 1999. McCourt's sale was inevitable--the ojnly question was when and how much. I imagine McCourt wasn't too cheezed about losing the Sox proposal, because he hired us to do PR when he bought the Dodgers, I believe on Harrington's recommendation.

I was no where close to the room, but the part with Selig arranging the marriage between Henry and what had been the Werner-Otten group seems almost certainly true and seemed likely true at the time.

I suppose it's possible that the purpose of the Aramark extension was to gut O'Donnell's bid, but his bid was, ultimately, smaller. The investigation that Tom Reilly did was silly, and history bore that out. Bob Popeo was Dolan's lawyer and he was close to Reilly, I believe. Maybe O'Donnell would have been good, but we ducked disasters with Dolan and McCourt.

Edit: I should add I lived in both Kenmore and the North End. Narcisus was closed when I lived in Kenmore (1994-2000), but it was still a ways from redevelopment. North End had gentrified a fair amount when I was there from 2000-2006.
 

TDFenway

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Aug 21, 2016
53
Can't beat Dana Hersey's rich baritone.

The McCourt idea was always based on the idea of a land swap, which was always weird, because his idea was something like he'd give his land to the Yawkey Trust and then build the stadium the land they owned or some such. I will say, the seaport was coming McCourt lots or no. My college girlfriend wrote her thesis on the seaport planning process and it was well underway by the time she graduated in 1999. McCourt's sale was inevitable--the ojnly question was when and how much. I imagine McCourt wasn't too cheezed about losing the Sox proposal, because he hired us to do PR when he bought the Dodgers, I believe on Harrington's recommendation.

I was no where close to the room, but the part with Selig arranging the marriage between Henry and what had been the Werner-Otten group seems almost certainly true and seemed likely true at the time.

I suppose it's possible that the purpose of the Aramark extension was to gut O'Donnell's bid, but his bid was, ultimately, smaller. The investigation that Tom Reilly did was silly, and history bore that out. Bob Popeo was Dolan's lawyer and he was close to Reilly, I believe. Maybe O'Donnell would have been good, but we ducked disasters with Dolan and McCourt.

Edit: I should add I lived in both Kenmore and the North End. Narcisus was closed when I lived in Kenmore (1994-2000), but it was still a ways from redevelopment. North End had gentrified a fair amount when I was there from 2000-2006.
@jose melendez A Dolan ownership would have been a disaster and we might still be looking at 1918 today if he had prevailed.

McCourt? He acquired a gold mine in Chavez Ravine and turned it into an abandoned coal mine.

O'Donnell possibly could have been a decent owner but he needed concessions control.

The irony is back in 2001 NESN was the key to the sale as it was worth more than the team and only JWH/Werner and Dolan knew that.

Today FSG is most focused on Liverpool FC because of the enormous bonuses a soccer team in Europe can make. NESN has become a pathethic joke when not running live games of the Sox and Bruins.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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@jose melendez A Dolan ownership would have been a disaster and we might still be looking at 1918 today if he had prevailed.

McCourt? He acquired a gold mine in Chavez Ravine and turned it into an abandoned coal mine.

O'Donnell possibly could have been a decent owner but he needed concessions control.

The irony is back in 2001 NESN was the key to the sale as it was worth more than the team and only JWH/Werner and Dolan knew that.

Today FSG is most focused on Liverpool FC because of the enormous bonuses a soccer team in Europe can make. NESN has become a pathethic joke when not running live games of the Sox and Bruins.
Become a joke? NESN's never been much of a channel outside of the live game coverage. NESN in 2001 was about 10 hours of paid advertising, 6 hours of NESN Sportsdesk reruns, live game coverage with little to no pre/postgame show, and occasional satellite network programming (Fox Sports Net, etc). The potential was there for it, especially since it became a basic cable channel just in time for this sale. I recall the talk that Werner and his TV background was going to maximize its potential. They haven't realized that potential and might have been better off just re-running sitcoms from the Carsey-Werner catalog instead of the drek they came up with.
 

Bleedred

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I worked for the law firm that represented the O'Donnell/Karp team at the time, but I didn't work on the transaction itself. There was serious consternation that "our guys" didn't win the bidding, and there were some unjustified barbs tossed at Bingham Dana, the law firm that represented the Yawkey Trust, suggesting they were not on the level with regard to treating the bidders equally (i.e. claims that they treated Henry's group more favorably than all the others which I chalk up to sour grapes of my colleagues). The firm was buzzing the days before the winning bidder was announced, followed by borderline professional depression for about a week.
 

dynomite

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What a joy it is to follow the last 20 years of the Red Sox. I grew up when the Red Sox were also rans. In the 70s the Orioles beat the Red Sox repeatedly - it was terrible. I remember the Bucky Dent game as if it were yesterday and how our spirits were crushed. My college was equidistant from New York and Boston and I suffered through the 1986 World Series collapse to the hated Mets. I was embarrassed that we could never beat the Yankees when it mattered.

The current ownership group has restored the prestige not only of the Red Sox but also of Fenway Park. In the 90s there was talk of tearing it down… Now it is restored to a rightfully national icon baseball stadium.

Bless them! And honestly I don’t give a shit if they stay in the shadows… Doesn’t matter.
I'm just coming here to boost this post and it sums up how I feel, even though I'm from a younger generation. In 2002 my hopes for a new ownership group were:

1) To win a World Series

2) To preserve and restore Fenway Park*

3) To grow the brand of the Red Sox, from spending enough and hiring a great front office staff to keep us competitive in most years to making it easier to watch and listen to the games.

On all 3, they have been as wildly successful as any ownership group in the sport. Rick Pitino was not without some merit when he said the relentless negativity of Boston sports media and sections of the fanbase, in a word, sucks. We are stupidly blessed, beyond any reasonable expectation of those of us who spent our childhood pinning our hopes on the Aaron Seles and Brian Roses of the world.

* Saving Fenway was non-negotiable for me. I know others on here disagree with me. But to my mind if you're upset about seat width and sight lines you can -- in my opinion -- enjoy the game from your couch. It's Red Sox baseball. Since 1912 that has happened at Fenway Park, in a cathedral of baseball. Sure, there's a Camden Yards here and there, but the new Yankee Stadium has the aesthetic and charm of an airport bar.
 
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8slim

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Regarding Pats vs. Sox as "most beloved" team I think it simply comes down to the fact that the region isn't nearly as provincial as it once was. That change advantaged football, and hurt baseball. Boston was always an outlier in that baseball was more popular than football. That wasn't true almost anywhere else in the country for decades.

That the Pats dynasty coincided with the explosion of the Internet, and the surge in NFL popularity, while MLB became a regional sport, was another factor.

The Sox are still wildly popular, but I'm not sure there's much of anything the ownership group could have done to alter a regional dynamic that was occuring. I mean, what more can you do than win four titles, anyway?
 
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TDFenway

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Aug 21, 2016
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Become a joke? NESN's never been much of a channel outside of the live game coverage. NESN in 2001 was about 10 hours of paid advertising, 6 hours of NESN Sportsdesk reruns, live game coverage with little to no pre/postgame show, and occasional satellite network programming (Fox Sports Net, etc). The potential was there for it, especially since it became a basic cable channel just in time for this sale. I recall the talk that Werner and his TV background was going to maximize its potential. They haven't realized that potential and might have been better off just re-running sitcoms from the Carsey-Werner catalog instead of the drek they came up with.
NESN has had a policy in recent years that if a show doesn't at least break even they will cancel it. Now for the first time, they have no scoreboard show. Truth is they are waiting for Massachusetts to allow sports betting because the major sportsbooks buy a lot of ads in states where it is legal.

Werner dislikes paying union scale on live games and that goes back to when he had to pay a fortune to produce Cosby in Brooklyn as he wanted to tape in Connecticut. NESN now does many elements of a live game back in Watertown to avoid paying scale.

I fully understand it is a business but most Boston freelancers prefer working either the road team feed or network feeds rather than dealing with NESN.

It is what it is.

https://www.ibew1228.org/docs/contracts/IBEW1228_RFI_2021_AGREEMENT_SIGNED.pdf
 

Bosoxian

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Aug 17, 2021
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Regarding Pats vs. Sox as "most beloved" team I think it simply comes down to the fact that the region isn't nearly as provincial as it once was. That change advantaged football, and hurt baseball. Boston was always an outlier in that baseball was more popular than football. That wasn't true almost anywhere else in the country for decades.

That the Pats dynasty coincided with the explosion of the Internet, and the surge in NFL popularity, while MLB became a regional sport, was another factor.

The Sox are still wildly popular, but I'm not sure there's much of anything the ownership group could have done to alter a regional dynamic that was occuring. I mean, what more can you do than win four titles, anyway?
As a fan of all the New England teams, including its original football team (the Giants), I’d like to see what happens if/when the Patriots go through a few years of bad teams. The Red Sox have shown that they can weather it, but I remember an empty Schaefer Stadium
 

8slim

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As a fan of all the New England teams, including its original football team (the Giants), I’d like to see what happens if/when the Patriots go through a few years of bad teams. The Red Sox have shown that they can weather it, but I remember an empty Schaefer Stadium
Agreed. A lot of the remaining obsession is because Brady is still active and Belichick is still coaching. When they’re both gone the mania will subside if the team is mediocre.