How good was Kobe Bryant?

Kliq

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I thought it would be interesting to have a discussion about Kobe's playing career and whether or not he is overrated, underrated or properly rated, and also a discussion in general about his strengths and weaknesses of his game. He is probably one of the most polarizing NBA players of all-time. Unlike LeBron, or Jordan, or Magic or Bird, I think there is a lot of room for debate when it comes to Kobe, in that he was widely recognized as being one of the very best players of all-time, but you can also paint him as a shameless gunner who shot his team out of games, and was also an egoist who drove away his best teammate and at times was extremely difficult to coach and build a team around.

Kobe certainly won a lot as a player, his five championships are more than all but very few players in NBA history outside of the Russell-Celtics. That being said, I feel like there is a revisionist history that has gone on for the first three titles. At the time, Shaq was clearly the dominant player on the Lakers. By the third title it had blossomed into more of a mutual thing, but even so, in the 2002 NBA Finals, Shaq averaged a 36 and 12 and Kobe a 27-5-5. Good stats for sure, but those were clearly Shaq's teams. I feel like Kobe gets to be mentioned in the same breath as Jordan due to the five rings, but Jordan never played with the best, most dominant player in the league for more than half of his titles.

Kobe was a tremendous scorer, and remarkably consistent throughout his career. Averaging 25 ppg for your career over 20 seasons is an amazing accomplishment. From 2000 to 2013, he averaged 28 ppg, pretty impressive especially when you consider the slower pace of the game. His career average of 35 ppg per 100 possessions is staggering. Only Jordan (40.4!!!!), Durant (37) and Lebron (36) have higher career ppg per 100 possessions, and Durant and LeBron could end up falling behind by the time their career ends. That being said, Kobe was also certainly a volume scorer, and he wasn't always efficient with his scoring. Out of all the post-merger players with 20,000 career points, only Pierce, Vince Carter, Allen Iverson and James Harden have a worse career FG percentage, although Harden is going to end up being much more efficient due to his free throw attempts and percentage of three point attempts.

Kobe seemed to walk a line between the ultimate basketball player that players wanted to model themselves after, and a basketball pariah. For some, he was the epitome of confidence and always had the courage to take the last shot, a warrior that killed himself in the off-season to get better and led his team to championships. For others, he was a ball hog who alienated teammates, forced the Lakers to trade Shaq when they could have just held onto him and won a half-dozen championships. There is a lot of truths in both narratives. Honestly, part of me liked that Kobe wasn't overly concerned with his shooting percentage, that he was willing to try and win titles without the help of Shaq, that he truly thought he could still be the best player in the NBA after tearing his achilles and heading into his late 30s. There is admiration in his infallible confidence, even if it probably came at the detriment of his team's success.

Kobe thoroughly enjoyed having a reputation for being a winner and for working hard. He starred in his own Spike Lee movie that was just about how hard he worked to get better, and the Black Mamba image reeked of Nike advertising and flagrant self-promotion, not coincidentally coming on the heels of his sexual assault trial. That being said, from the testament of former players, coaches and journalists, Kobe may have talked the talk but he walked the walk. Every player from that generation, especially the stars like LeBron, Wade, Durant, Melo, etc. have remarked how Kobe's work ethic had a strong impression on them and forced themselves to up their commitment.

In the end, I think he is probably a little bit overrated. Yes he won titles, yes he was a phenomenal scorer, yes he was durable and his work ethic was an inspiration for others, but he was also selfish, inefficient, an overrated defender, especially later in his career and it got pretty ugly at the end. I would have him rated somewhere between 8-12 all time.
 

OurF'ingCity

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In the end, I think he is probably a little bit overrated. Yes he won titles, yes he was a phenomenal scorer, yes he was durable and his work ethic was an inspiration for others, but he was also selfish, inefficient, an overrated defender, especially later in his career and it got pretty ugly at the end. I would have him rated somewhere between 8-12 all time.
I find it hard to argue with this. He was essentially the Derek Jeter of the NBA - a sure-fire, easy Hall-of-famer with a ton of rings but who nonetheless gets overrated because of where he played - except that by all accounts Jeter largely seems to have been a great teammate and all-around great guy whereas Kobe's record there is mixed at best (remember the playoff Game 7 against the Suns where he literally refused to shoot as a passive-aggressive counter to those who had been criticizing his usage?), and that's not even getting into the off-court stuff which isn't the subject of this thread.
 

ElUno20

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Well based on the media response, people are ready to make him the new logo of the league.
 

DJnVa

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I find it hard to argue with this. He was essentially the Derek Jeter of the NBA - a sure-fire, easy Hall-of-famer with a ton of rings but who nonetheless gets overrated because of where he played - except that by all accounts Jeter largely seems to have been a great teammate and all-around great guy whereas Kobe's record there is mixed at best (remember the playoff Game 7 against the Suns where he literally refused to shoot as a passive-aggressive counter to those who had been criticizing his usage?), and that's not even getting into the off-court stuff which isn't the subject of this thread.
I get your overarching point, but even if Kobe was #8-12 all time that's a lot higher than Jeter.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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I think you capture the arguments about where he lands in terms of player rankings and his game's strengths and flaws. I think a large part of the gushing reaction is how his personality has become so public and how active he has been in his short retirement. Every player of the last 2 generations acknowledges he was a cut above in terms of competitiveness. He's very much like Ray Lewis in going from a polarizing playing career to an immediate transition into one of the most respected elder statesmen of the game.
 

Ale Xander

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He was a lot better than Jeter on the court/field. He could have been a lot better if he passed/created a bit more. This is where Lebron deserves respect.
Jeter was better off the court/field, though. (MFY days-as a player)
 
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MuppetAsteriskTalk

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I think you capture the arguments about where he lands in terms of player rankings and his game's strengths and flaws. I think a large part of the gushing reaction is how his personality has become so public and how active he has been in his short retirement. Every player of the last 2 generations acknowledges he was a cut above in terms of competitiveness. He's very much like Ray Lewis in going from a polarizing playing career to an immediate transition into one of the most respected elder statesmen of the game.
Is Ray Lewis really a respected elder statesman? It seems like more often than not he is laughed at for being over the top. I didn't realize anyone takes him seriously.
 

Vinho Tinto

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Jeter was better off the court/field, though.
I'm not sure that has been true in the recent past. Kobe's long term plans weren't going to save the world, but I found where he was headed with regards to women's athletics and media far more interesting than what Jeter is doing in Miami.
 

Euclis20

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Just a quick glance at the advanced numbers indicate he may be slightly overrated. 25th alltime in career PER (right behind Kawhi Leonard and Yao Ming), which is far less than the guys he's often compared to (Jordan is #1, Lebron is #2 and Shaq is #4). Looking at a stat that should reward his longevity (Win Shares), he's 16th, right behind Reggie Miller and Charles Barkley. He gets bonus points for the killer attitude, although it could be argued that the same attitude is what drove Shaq away, breaking up maybe the greatest duo of all time.
 

BaseballJones

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I was thinking about this earlier today. The player Kobe is most often compared to is Jordan. And so I looked up the career numbers. They're close enough to warrant a comparison, but at the end of the day...uh...no. Jordan was clearly better.

Stat line
Bryant: 20 seasons, 1346 g, 25.0 pts, 5.2 reb, 4.7 ast, 1.4 stl, 0.5 blk, 3.0 to, 44.7 fg%, 32.9 3ptfg%, 83.7 ft%, 48.2 efg%
Jordan: 15 seasons, 1072 g, 30.1 pts, 6.2 reb, 5.3 ast, 2.3 stl, 0.8 blk, 2.7 to, 49.7 fg%, 32.7 3ptfg%, 83.5 ft%, 50.9 efg%

Other
Bryant: 18x all-star, 15x all-NBA, 1 MVP, 2x finals MVP, 12x all-defense, 5x NBA champ
Jordan: 14x all-star, 11x all-NBA, 5x MVP, 6x finals MVP, 9x all-defense, 6x NBA champ

I mean, if there's ever a statistical doppelgänger for Jordan, it's Kobe. But basically he falls short...everywhere. Individual stats, even awards (he has more all-star appearances and all-defenses because he played 5 more seasons) and championships. But they both had incredible work ethics and rode their teammates very very hard. Same killer instinct on the court.

And then there's this. Eerie (sorry it's grainy...it's not my video):

 

Kliq

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The most underrated aspect of Jordan was his incredible efficiency. He shot the ball a ton, just as much if not more than Kobe at times, but he was much more efficient. In 87-88, Jordan scored 35 ppg and made 53 percent of his shots; which is just insane for a guard. Watch any game highlights of Jordan scoring 50+ points and he just basically nails contested 18 foot jumpers for four quarters.
 

CreightonGubanich

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Kobe was definitively not Jordan, which is interesting because Kobe himself was the author of that comparison. Everything he did, from his moves on the court to his mannerisms in press conferences, was designed to emulate Jordan, as stated by Kobe himself. Unfortunately for him, he ended up as basically an inferior facsimile to Jordan in just about every respect. The only thing that Kobe had going for him was that he was probably a better three point shooter than Jordan at his peak (the career percentages were close, but Kobe took tougher shots at a higher volume in his prime than Jordan did).

I do think that Kobe's categorical "Not MJ-ness" sometimes causes him to be underrated a bit. He's worse than the greatest player ever, no question. But he's also probably the second-best two guard ever. He was a born scorer, even if he could have been more efficient. He was a plus defender and passer for his position. He won five titles, including 2 without Shaq as the unquestioned franchise leader. He's the second best scorer ever from the guard position, withholding judgment on the careers of Steph Curry and James Harden.

Ultimately, somewhere around #8-10 range all time is probably right, and it seems that's where most people have him pegged, so maybe he's properly rated. It just always seemed a bit unfortunate that Kobe almost invited people to dismiss him by authoring comparisons to a guy he could never live up to.

Edit: There's an interesting conversation to be had about the era in which he played, too. He was the guy who bridged the NBA era between LeBron and Jordan. Every team in the post-MJ era had or wanted a two guard who could get buckets like MJ. Some teams came close with a Vince Carter or Ray Allen, other teams gave a ton of shots to guys like Ricky Davis and Ron Mercer. Kobe was unquestionably the best of his era, one in which hero ball was normalized to a degree that seems absurd today. Part of that shouldn't be held against Kobe himself; if he played today, he'd probably look a lot more like James Harden with better defense.
 
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Sam Ray Not

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I think Kobe is at the bottom part of the top 10 players of all-time. In no particular order I think it's Jordan, Russell, LeBron, Bird, Wilt, Kobe, Shaq, Kareem, Duncan, and Magic.
I'd probably put Hakeem, KG, KD, Dirk, Steph and the BIg O ahead of Kobe, with all due respect to the awesomeness of Kobe, whose four-times-annually destruction of the Warriors felt like a yearly rite of passage, up till he blew his Achilles driving on Harrison Barnes.

Either way, RIP. Sigh.
 

bankshot1

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I'd probably put Hakeem, KG, KD, Dirk, Steph and the BIg O ahead of Kobe, with all due respect to the awesomeness of Kobe, whose four-times-annually destruction of the Warriors felt like a yearly rite of passage, up till he blew his Achilles driving on Harrison Barnes.

Either way, RIP. Sigh.
I really dislike comping players from different eras, but this is +/- where I am. IMO Kobe is a 10-15 guy, but pretty damn good in a league with dozens of great players. And comping him as a 8-10 all-timer to Jeter, is WAAAAAAAY overstating Jeter. Jeter is 8-10 (poetic license-Ruth-Gehrig-Joe D-Yogi, Mickey, Whitey, Mo ) of all-time Yankees.
 

Devizier

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Well based on the media response, people are ready to make him the new logo of the league.
Jerry West is a pretty good comparison in terms of overall ability and impact, though. Kobe has a huge edge in terms of games played, but some of those back years were not good.
 
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Kliq

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It is really hard to compare players who played in completely different eras, but I'm a huge Jerry West stan and will argue that he was better than Kobe. Kobe had a longer, more prosperous career, but West was overall a better player. Adjusted for era, he was a better shooter and arguably a better overall scorer, although we don't have the per 100 stats for him. West was at least as good of a defender, if not better, and West was a better playmaker. He didn't win nearly as many rings as Kobe, but you could argue that he was actually more clutch and also a better performer in the NBA Finals, even with so many losses.

West, along with Oscar, was a bit of a groundbreaker when it came to being a dominant guard. The league up until that point was dominated by big men, save for Cousy, and West really showed that a perimeter player could score just as much and be just as impactful. West shooting 47 percent for his career is incredible, given how many shots he took and compared to the other guards of his era; Cousy shot 37 percent for his career, Sharman 42 percent, Sam Jones 45 percent, Havlicek 43 percent, Hal Greer 45 percent, Lenny Wilkens 43 percent, and those guys are all in the Hall of Fame and remembered for the most part as deadeye shooters.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Is Ray Lewis really a respected elder statesman? It seems like more often than not he is laughed at for being over the top. I didn't realize anyone takes him seriously.
I should clarify I'm mostly referring to his image amongst his peers. His schtick as a commentator is over the top and terrible. But his contemporaries laud him as one of the sport's greatest leaders and he has a reputation for reaching out to and mentoring young players in the league today.
 

coremiller

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It is really hard to compare players who played in completely different eras, but I'm a huge Jerry West stan and will argue that he was better than Kobe. Kobe had a longer, more prosperous career, but West was overall a better player. Adjusted for era, he was a better shooter and arguably a better overall scorer, although we don't have the per 100 stats for him. West was at least as good of a defender, if not better, and West was a better playmaker. He didn't win nearly as many rings as Kobe, but you could argue that he was actually more clutch and also a better performer in the NBA Finals, even with so many losses.

West, along with Oscar, was a bit of a groundbreaker when it came to being a dominant guard. The league up until that point was dominated by big men, save for Cousy, and West really showed that a perimeter player could score just as much and be just as impactful. West shooting 47 percent for his career is incredible, given how many shots he took and compared to the other guards of his era; Cousy shot 37 percent for his career, Sharman 42 percent, Sam Jones 45 percent, Havlicek 43 percent, Hal Greer 45 percent, Lenny Wilkens 43 percent, and those guys are all in the Hall of Fame and remembered for the most part as deadeye shooters.
West and Kobe ended up with identical TS% of .550, which is pretty remarkable for West given their respective eras + the lack of the three-point shot in West's time (which would have boosted West's numbers because West was widely regarded as the best outside shooter of his era). West averaged 9.4 FTs per game for his career, third-best among 20k-point scorers and significantly better than Kobe's 7.4. West was also a much better passer, averaging 6.7 APG to Kobe's 4.7.
 

Kliq

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West and Kobe ended up with identical TS% of .550, which is pretty remarkable for West given their respective eras + the lack of the three-point shot in West's time (which would have boosted West's numbers because West was widely regarded as the best outside shooter of his era). West averaged 9.4 FTs per game for his career, third-best among 20k-point scorers and significantly better than Kobe's 7.4. West was also a much better passer, averaging 6.7 APG to Kobe's 4.7.
To this day West still holds the record for most free throws made in a single season. His assist total is also really impressive because assists were not tallied as liberally as they would be later.
 

Seels

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I hear people say he's top 5 or top 10 and I've never understood it. He has like no argument for this at all.

To start, someone posted this a few years ago, and I'll concede he knows more about basketball than I do:

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
I'd probably take his picks, and put Robinson and Durant above him, and consider putting Malone above him. Basically, my views on Kobe are
  • He was a very good player for a long time, but never really the best in the league. And I'd argue his time frame specifically (playing after Jordan but before Lebron really got going) had the easiest time frame in history to be the best in the league.
  • Building off the top, his peak just wasn't as high as players above him.
  • If we're going to championships, several players have more, but he was obviously 2nd fiddle to Shaq on those teams.
  • He's 19th in winshares, 17th in vorp, 39th in bpm, 26th in PER. The guys above him in these are a pretty strong mix.

So I'd say I'd have him at roughly 15th best ever, but can see the argument for maybe 1-2 spots higher. Durant and Curry certainly go above him by the time they retire.
 

BigSoxFan

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I never realized Kobe was a career 32.9% 3 PT shooter. Pretty low for a guy who probably worked on it nonstop.
 

CaptainLaddie

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I think his impact on younger players -- as much as he despised them on his own team sometimes -- can't be understated. Almost every single player under 30 in the league grew up idolizing Kobe. For better or worse, his offensive style of play simply made him these younger players their Jordan.

He's probably the most influential player since Jordan, with Steph behind him. LeBron is amazing and a top 3 player, but his style of play didn't have the same impact as Kobe's.
 

bosockboy

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I hear people say he's top 5 or top 10 and I've never understood it. He has like no argument for this at all.

To start, someone posted this a few years ago, and I'll concede he knows more about basketball than I do:

https://backpicks.com/2017/12/11/the-backpicks-goat-the-40-best-careers-in-nba-history/
I'd probably take his picks, and put Robinson and Durant above him, and consider putting Malone above him. Basically, my views on Kobe are
  • He was a very good player for a long time, but never really the best in the league. And I'd argue his time frame specifically (playing after Jordan but before Lebron really got going) had the easiest time frame in history to be the best in the league.
  • Building off the top, his peak just wasn't as high as players above him.
  • If we're going to championships, several players have more, but he was obviously 2nd fiddle to Shaq on those teams.
  • He's 19th in winshares, 17th in vorp, 39th in bpm, 26th in PER. The guys above him in these are a pretty strong mix.

So I'd say I'd have him at roughly 15th best ever, but can see the argument for maybe 1-2 spots higher. Durant and Curry certainly go above him by the time they retire.
12-15 is about right.
 

reggiecleveland

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QUOTE="CaptainLaddie, post: 3742106, member: 987"]
I think his impact on younger players -- as much as he despised them on his own team sometimes -- can't be understated. Almost every single player under 30 in the league grew up idolizing Kobe. For better or worse, his offensive style of play simply made him these younger players their Jordan.

He's probably the most influential player since Jordan, with Steph behind him. LeBron is amazing and a top 3 player, but his style of play didn't have the same impact as Kobe's.
[/QUOTE]
Kobe, at his best, is the young guy's dream being able to win a game simply by scoring, putting the ball on the floor, passing just enough. These same qualities made him at times a terrible team mate, and at times a player of even negative value. But his is the thing. He was good enough to do it for years at a time, winning championships. Sure as a fan and coaches that attitude isn't what you want on your team, but he was good enough to do it in the NBA, and he did it by working his ass off. Players admire the drive, the confidence, the ability to go out in the NBA and treat in like you were the college guy Saturday at the Y playing with clowns.
 

lexrageorge

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I think for the most part he's fairly rated: the 3rd group of 5 (10-15), despite what Chris Gasper claims. As far as the ability to score huge number of points, an argument could be made to put him in the top 10 in that department, maybe even top 5. After all, only one other player has scored more than his career high of 81, and the league was in a scoring drought during the first few years of his career. And he was arguably the 2nd most dominant player of his era (behind Shaq).
 

HomeRunBaker

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I always found it interesting that Kobe had the reputation as a "gunner" or someone who didn't pass the ball or set up his teammates.

31st All-Time in Assists behind 28 full-time PG's, one who split the 1/2 during his career (Theus), and LeBron. 4 times in Top-20. I remember a board (here or CBlog, I forget) hammering him for "gunning" when he had Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker starting with him. He won 45 games and went to a 1st round Game 7 with those 3, Lamar Odom, and zero bench depth......you have to let that sink in to truly appreciate. Sure, he "could" have probably led the league in assists he was that good of a creator......but when you are so much better at scoring the ball than your teammates it would be a detriment to his team.

As far as All-Time rankings. I personally have LeBron clear cut 1, Michael clear cut 2, and anyone discussing Kobe along with a half dozen others between 3-10 wouldn't get much of an argument by me simply because it is so difficult comparing eras.
 

Nator

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Kobe will be known as the last great volume scorer. He is the last of an era where jacking up contested mid-range 2's was OK if you ended up with 20+ points in the box score.

I think another way to compare him to Jeter was that when he did hit the crazy turn around contested jumper while double teamed, it would be a gushing Sportcenter highlight. The reality being he could have and maybe should have passed to the open man to create a better scoring opportunity for his team.

When Jeter would chase a ball deep into the hole at shortstop and make that big jump-throw to just get the force out at first, it would also be a web-gem. However, that same ball hit to Omar Vizquel would be a mundane grounder to short for an easy out.

I think you can both admire the work ethic to achieve results and also criticize his decisions from his mostly self-imposed difficult shots. 10-15 on the all time list seems about right.

It's still a shock. He is only one of three NBA MVPs to be dead, joining Wilt and Moses. Once the recency bias wears off, and hopefully once people can discuss his sexual assault without getting death threats on Twitter, people will back off from putting him top 10.
 

coremiller

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I always found it interesting that Kobe had the reputation as a "gunner" or someone who didn't pass the ball or set up his teammates.

31st All-Time in Assists behind 28 full-time PG's, one who split the 1/2 during his career (Theus), and LeBron. 4 times in Top-20. I remember a board (here or CBlog, I forget) hammering him for "gunning" when he had Kwame Brown, Chris Mihm, and Smush Parker starting with him. He won 45 games and went to a 1st round Game 7 with those 3, Lamar Odom, and zero bench depth......you have to let that sink in to truly appreciate. Sure, he "could" have probably led the league in assists he was that good of a creator......but when you are so much better at scoring the ball than your teammates it would be a detriment to his team.

As far as All-Time rankings. I personally have LeBron clear cut 1, Michael clear cut 2, and anyone discussing Kobe along with a half dozen others between 3-10 wouldn't get much of an argument by me simply because it is so difficult comparing eras.
All-time totals rankings are misleading for Kobe just because he played forever. Among players with >800 games, Kobe is 86th in assists/100 possessions and 102nd in assists/36 minutes, despite being third all-time in career usage rate. The gunner label fits, I think. Kobe was not a bad passer, but it's clearly not something he prioritized.
 

HomeRunBaker

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All-time totals rankings are misleading for Kobe just because he played forever. Among players with >800 games, Kobe is 86th in assists/100 possessions and 102nd in assists/36 minutes, despite being third all-time in career usage rate. The gunner label fits, I think. Kobe was not a bad passer, but it's clearly not something he prioritized.
What about the individual seasons when he led all of the leagues non-PGs in Assists?
 

CreightonGubanich

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I think his assist numbers were somewhat artificially constrained by playing in the triangle. For much of his career, his role in the offense on a certain number of possessions was to either deliver the entry pass to Shaq, or stand on the wing while someone else did so. Even later without Shaq, the triangle scripts plays and passes in a way that doesn't exactly lend itself to creative assists. I think if you put Kobe in a spread pick and roll offense, he's at least as good of a passer as, say, James Harden.
 

Kliq

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Someone can rack up a ton of assists and also go down as a player who took a lot of selfish shots, it is not mutually exclusive. Assists really shouldn't be used as a barometer for unselfish play. Russell Westbrook is 10th all-time in apg, but he is also a guy who has taken a lot of selfish shots in his career.
 

Hoya81

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It’s hard to see how he’d be considered anything less than a top 10 player and the #2 SG behind Jordan. His gunner tendencies are hard to ignore (no one missed more shots-ever) but there were no other significant weaknesses in his game.
He was excellent in the Olympics in 2008 and made several key plays in the gold medal game against Spain and did the same 4 years later when Lebron had to leave with foul trouble. But I’d also list his absence in 2004 as a significant contributor to that teams awful performance.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Someone can rack up a ton of assists and also go down as a player who took a lot of selfish shots, it is not mutually exclusive. Assists really shouldn't be used as a barometer for unselfish play. Russell Westbrook is 10th all-time in apg, but he is also a guy who has taken a lot of selfish shots in his career.
So you're the Lakers coach......you're calling sets for Kobe to set up Mihm, Kwame and Smush Parker? How does this help you win games? Aside from dumping down to Shaq, Kobe didn't have many reliable scorers around him during his career.
 

Kliq

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It’s hard to see how he’d be considered anything less than a top 10 player and the #2 SG behind Jordan. His gunner tendencies are hard to ignore (no one missed more shots-ever) but there were no other significant weaknesses in his game.
He was excellent in the Olympics in 2008 and made several key plays in the gold medal game against Spain and did the same 4 years later when Lebron had to leave with foul trouble. But I’d also list his absence in 2004 as a significant contributor to that teams awful performance.
I don't have him ranked any lower than you do, but he certainly had weaknesses beyond his low shooting percentages. He was a bad defender for the entire second half of his career but was shamelessly voted into all-defense teams long past his days of being a defensive stopper. It also has to be acknowledged that at the end, he very well have been the single most destructive NBA player in history, given how washed he was but his insistence to still be the guy.
 

Kliq

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So you're the Lakers coach......you're calling sets for Kobe to set up Mihm, Kwame and Smush Parker? How does this help you win games? Aside from dumping down to Shaq, Kobe didn't have many reliable scorers around him during his career.
Aside from having the most dominant low-post player and the surest two points of the modern era standing on the block for the first eight seasons of his career, you are right, it was tough for Kobe. There were three seasons where Kobe was kind of in the wilderness before Gasol arrived, so out of the 17 seasons he played (not counting his final three post-injury seasons) he had at least one All-Star post player to feed the ball to for 14 of them.
 

Mooch

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My issue with Kobe is that he epitomized the style of play that turned me off from the NBA in the late 90s and much of the 2000s: Hero ball. Hand the ball to the star and clear everyone else out of the way. It was boring and selfish and influential in a truly unattractive way if we're talking about fluidity of the sport. Sure, he was a great scorer, winner and had an insane will but I think that for all of Kobe's greatness as a player, he subtracted things from the game nearly as much as he added to it.
 

HomeRunBaker

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My issue with Kobe is that he epitomized the style of play that turned me off from the NBA in the late 90s and much of the 2000s: Hero ball. Hand the ball to the star and clear everyone else out of the way. It was boring and selfish and influential in a truly unattractive way if we're talking about fluidity of the sport. Sure, he was a great scorer, winner and had an insane will but I think that for all of Kobe's greatness as a player, he subtracted things from the game nearly as much as he added to it.
That was the MJ/Iverson influence. Have you seen the clip of when Kobe went to Rucker Park after winning his 3rd ring? Street ball was the thing when he was growing up and that generation of fans gravitated toward it. The MC tabbed him “Lord of the Rings!”

View: https://youtu.be/zxIN_b-vhNQ
 

lexrageorge

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Kobe, like many of his colleagues, grew up in an era when the old timers were still calling the 3 point shot a "gimmick" that should be removed. Yeah, the NCAA and high schools added a 3 point during that same time, but still, the coaching influences were pertinent. The 3 wasn't the way to win the game; it was instead to get the ball to your best player and let him work his magic.

I think what made the NBA unwatchable wasn't so much Kobe playing hero ball. It was a combination of (a) players that had no reason to play hero ball were doing it; and (b) good 1-on-1 defense was considered a hard hack on the player as he drove to the basket. The combination just made NBA games a bunch of unwatchable 85-79 free throw contests.

Still say the 2004 Olympic fiasco was one of the better things that happened to not just USA basketball, but also the NBA. The games soon became entertaining again.
 

bakahump

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So you're the Lakers coach......you're calling sets for Kobe to set up Mihm, Kwame and Smush Parker? How does this help you win games? Aside from dumping down to Shaq, Kobe didn't have many reliable scorers around him during his career.

I get what your saying.

But when your "KOBE!" playing with mihm, Kwame and Smush who is the defense keying on? Kobe was a better scorer. I wonder if he is a better scoring option when constantly getting double teamed and playing against Ds designed to stop him. Often? Sure. As much as he shot? Probably not.

That seems to cut three ways. 1. He SHOULD have a bunch of assists if the D is keying on him. Even when playing with 4 guys from the Y. 2. He was good enough to be the defenses focal point so you need to be special to do that. 3. Jordan (Bird and maybe more specifically Lebron) make the guys around them better for just this reason. (I ask in all honesty....did Kobe? Or did he just say F-it....I'll do it. Sometimes to his team detriment?)
 

HomeRunBaker

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I get what your saying.

But when your "KOBE!" playing with mihm, Kwame and Smush who is the defense keying on? Kobe was a better scorer. I wonder if he is a better scoring option when constantly getting double teamed and playing against Ds designed to stop him. Often? Sure. As much as he shot? Probably not.

That seems to cut three ways. 1. He SHOULD have a bunch of assists if the D is keying on him. Even when playing with 4 guys from the Y. 2. He was good enough to be the defenses focal point so you need to be special to do that. 3. Jordan (Bird and maybe more specifically Lebron) make the guys around them better for just this reason. (I ask in all honesty....did Kobe? Or did he just say F-it....I'll do it. Sometimes to his team detriment?)
Such a high bar but sure I can buy this. To me, the only two close to perfect players I’ve ever seen were LeBron and Michael......and if you dig deep enough we could overanalyze their flaws too. Some of what you can critique of Kobe is stronger than what I can come up with for LBJ/MJ......which is why I have them 1/2 well above anyone else.
 

Kliq

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I get what your saying.

But when your "KOBE!" playing with mihm, Kwame and Smush who is the defense keying on? Kobe was a better scorer. I wonder if he is a better scoring option when constantly getting double teamed and playing against Ds designed to stop him. Often? Sure. As much as he shot? Probably not.

That seems to cut three ways. 1. He SHOULD have a bunch of assists if the D is keying on him. Even when playing with 4 guys from the Y. 2. He was good enough to be the defenses focal point so you need to be special to do that. 3. Jordan (Bird and maybe more specifically Lebron) make the guys around them better for just this reason. (I ask in all honesty....did Kobe? Or did he just say F-it....I'll do it. Sometimes to his team detriment?)
I think the difference between MJ/Kobe/LeBron is simple.

1. MJ was probably, if not more of a gunner than Kobe. For their careers, MJ averaged 30 fga per 100 possessions, and Kobe 28, although MJ never played with someone as dominant as Shaq to differ to. The difference was that MJ was a better shooter than Kobe, particularly from mid-range and he didn't take many threes. So MJ was taking a shit ton of shots but when you are making 54 percent of them, it is hard to argue that it wasn't a good shot to take.

2. Kobe had a very similar mentality, but he just wasn't quite the shooter that MJ was, so even though he took a similar number of shots, he wasn't making an above-average amount of them like MJ, so it deserved more criticism.

3. LeBron has a completely different mentality, he doesn't like to shoot and score the way MJ/Kobe did, he is more like Magic in that he can score and get to the basket when he needs too, but also understands the value of teamwork and seems to really enjoy passing more than scoring. If you were to ask LeBron if he would rather score 30 points or half 10 assists, I guarantee he would say 10 assists, and unlike most NBA players, he would be genuinely telling the truth.
 

bankshot1

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Aside from having the most dominant low-post player and the surest two points of the modern era standing on the block for the first eight seasons of his career, you are right, it was tough for Kobe. There were three seasons where Kobe was kind of in the wilderness before Gasol arrived, so out of the 17 seasons he played (not counting his final three post-injury seasons) he had at least one All-Star post player to feed the ball to for 14 of them.
I started reading the Kobe/asst theme and was going to post about his years of Shaq/Gasol low post options , but you nailed it. .
 

Smokey Joe

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it Is axiomatic that if you have a conversation about Kobe Bryant’s place in NBA history, no matter where you are, a Kobestan will show to tell you you’re wrong. Who knew it would be HRB?
 

HomeRunBaker

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it Is axiomatic that if you have a conversation about Kobe Bryant’s place in NBA history, no matter where you are, a Kobestan will show to tell you you’re wrong. Who knew it would be HRB?
It’s just weird to me how someone can say he’s a Top-10 All Time player than critique his game as hard as they do. It’s hard for me to find so many flaws with a top 10 (or even Top 20 if you believe that) player in the history of this game.
 

Hoya81

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It’s just weird to me how someone can say he’s a Top-10 All Time player than critique his game as hard as they do. It’s hard for me to find so many flaws with a top 10 (or even Top 20 if you believe that) player in the history of this game.
I think it's just easier to critique modern players, with almost all of their games available on video and the expansion in statistical data to analyze. The pre-80's NBA might as well be a different sport.
 

Smokey Joe

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It’s just weird to me how someone can say he’s a Top-10 All Time player than critique his game as hard as they do. It’s hard for me to find so many flaws with a top 10 (or even Top 20 if you believe that) player in the history of this game.
Yet you have to critique his game. How else do you decide if he's in your top 5 or 10 or 20? You either compare him to his colleagues or to some Naismithian ideal or say everybody did great! Everyone gets a trophy! You end up searching for and magnifying faults just to have differences to discuss.

Actually, I am amazed that this discussion has not degenerated into squabbling like it does on so many basketball forums.
 

reggiecleveland

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Someone can rack up a ton of assists and also go down as a player who took a lot of selfish shots, it is not mutually exclusive. Assists really shouldn't be used as a barometer for unselfish play. Russell Westbrook is 10th all-time in apg, but he is also a guy who has taken a lot of selfish shots in his career.
Assist is a stat, and selfish guys like assists. It is harder to get the selfish guy to make the Gretzky, or the "one more" pass where somebody else get the assist. Also often guys that over penetrate, monopolize the ball can find guys for scores, even when they should have passed sooner. Kobe also seemed to trust some guys and not others.
 

Devizier

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It’s hard to see how he’d be considered anything less than a top 10 player and the #2 SG behind Jordan.
Is it? The top of the list is going to be dominated by forwards and bigs, no matter who you go with. Besides Jordan, you've got Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell. And of course you have guys like Bird, Magic, Barkley, (ugh) Malone, and old timers like West and Robertson. I think you can credibly squeeze Bryant in the top ten but it's hardly an incontestable assertion.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Is it? The top of the list is going to be dominated by forwards and bigs, no matter who you go with. Besides Jordan, you've got Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Lebron, Shaq, Hakeem, Russell. And of course you have guys like Bird, Magic, Barkley, (ugh) Malone, and old timers like West and Robertson. I think you can credibly squeeze Bryant in the top ten but it's hardly an incontestable assertion.
Like I said earlier I can listen to an argument for many of these players at #3 over Kobe. Not Barkley or Malone, but everyone else on that list is fair game (some more than others).......I don’t have any list with him outside of the Top-10 however.