How long will Chaim last?

When will FSG see the light and fire this guy?


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BaseballJones

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Last place in 3 out of 4 years. It's not 100% fair due to the division, of course.

It's also the perspective that they haven't put together a roster that anyone objectively thought was a true contender in any of the years. I know they made it within 2 games of the WS in 2021, and we have seen similar teams win titles like in 2013. But he's yet to put together a roster on paper that anyone thought was one of the top 5-8 teams in baseball heading into the year.
Right now the Red Sox have the 14th best record in MLB - that's upper half. Obviously it feels terrible being in last place, but this division is absolutely stacked. They'd be in first place in the AL Central. Ridiculous.

They're not good. But they're not terrible either. Not having Sale for an extended period of time is a major blow, obviously. I agree with you about how the roster just doesn't come off like a championship roster. Not at all.

Long way to go to get there, but competing in this division sure doesn't help. They're 8-10 in the division this year after being beyond horrific in the AL East last year. Somehow they've managed to go 4-0 against Toronto, and does anyone think THAT is going to continue? No way.

Since they were 21-14 on May 6, they've gone 10-18 since. Yuck.
 

chrisfont9

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Casas in the field is a disaster. Try again.
After 94 games no less! He should be put to death.

Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
This is totally how things work in reality. Just let an agent hamstring your roster building because there's only one pitcher who will do the job for you.
 

astrozombie

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Sep 12, 2022
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This x100. Bloom isn't a one-man show. It's I don't even know how many dozens of scouts and other functionaries running around Latin America and the Carribean and Japan and Korea. It's about building relationships on the ground that can give you an advantage when some super talented kid is available to sign. Or so we are told. Flipping GMs every five years seems antithetical to building the networks that lead to real, sustained success. If you really are rebuilding and looking for organizational advantages, you have to tune out all of the people playing yesterday's results on social media.
My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not last in the division, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
Turner has been worth 0.5 bWAR so far and was guaranteed 2x as much total $$ as JD, right? He’s hitting 256/337/401. Since 2017, his OPS has gone 945, 924, 881, 860, 832, 788, 738.

Hopefully he turns it around, but he’s been quite a bit worse than the version of JD that everyone hated last year. He probably shouldn’t be an everyday player at this point but the Sox really don’t have a choice there.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
And if come February he signs somewhere else, and the pickings are slim on the market, where do they go? They can't wait around forever for one guy to decide that their offer is pretty good after all. There's an expression involving eggs and baskets that probably applies.
 

tims4wins

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But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.

JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
 

BigSoxFan

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Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.
And Turner has a $13M player option for next year, his age 39 year. Unless you think his decline trend will miraculously reverse at that age, this is not looking like a great signing. May ultimately be neutral but I certainly wouldn't commit that kind of money to him next year, if I had the option to avoid it.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not under-.500, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?
More than two, for starters (something that hasn't actually happened to Bloom yet).

The argument in the thread has generally been about whether he should keep his job through this season, not four years down the line. If he's still around in 2026 and the team hasn't sniffed the playoffs in that entire time, I would expect pretty much everyone here to be ready to move on from him.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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And Turner has a $13M player option for next year, his age 39 year. Unless you think his decline trend will miraculously reverse at that age, this is not looking like a great signing. May ultimately be neutral but I certainly wouldn't commit that kind of money to him next year, if I had the option to avoid it.
$6.7M buyout.. So the Sox are either in for 1/$15 or 2/$22.
 

astrozombie

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More than two, for starters (something that hasn't actually happened to Bloom yet).

The argument in the thread has generally been about whether he should keep his job through this season, not four years down the line. If he's still around in 2026 and the team hasn't sniffed the playoffs in that entire time, I would expect pretty much everyone here to be ready to move on from him.
But would you? Once again, legit question. It's 2026 and the team has sniffed the playoffs but didn't actually make it. Give Chaim another shot?
 

soxin6

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Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.

JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.
 

BaseballJones

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Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.

JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
I had basically forgotten that Martinez is still playing baseball. He's crushing it with the Dodgers (shock!).

15 homers, 43 rbi, .269/.305/.613/.918, 139 ops+

Leads the league in slugging. Amazing. He had 16 homers in 596 PA last year (1 homer every 37.3 PA), and this year he has 15 homers in 203 PA (1 homer every 13.5 PA).
 

tims4wins

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But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.
Even last year's version of JDM was 50 points better OPS than Turner.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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But would you? Once again, legit question. It's 2026 and the team has sniffed the playoffs but didn't actually make it. Give Chaim another shot?
Probably not. If we're talking four years missing the playoffs and time for his drafts to start paying dividends with no positive results, yeah, he should go. I don't see how answering that question is at all relevant to the here and now though.
 

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Turner has the most PA on the team as DH. His OPS is .734 as a DH. Nearly 200 points below JDM. In a far better hitter's park.

JDM .918. Turner .738. This was a good decision by Chaim? Bloomers are seriously counting that as a good decision? JDM hit more homers in the last 2 weeks than Turner has in 2+ months.
JD is hitting great. We were talking about fielding and having a non-fielding DH
 

tims4wins

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JD is hitting great. We were talking about fielding and having a non-fielding DH
Right. Casas sucks at fielding. So his presence on the team vs. JDM doesn't exactly help. JT doesn't play the field. His OPS is worse than JDM's, by far. Neither Turner nor Casas help on D. Both are worse at hitting than JDM. So how are the Sox better off?
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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But would JD be doing this so well without working with his hitting guru? The only place JD was likely to go was the Dodgers, hoping that he could be fixed and he has so far.
Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
 

YTF

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Obviously process matters, but at the end of the day,
Was his decision on Wacha correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on Eovaldi correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on JDM correct? Seemingly no.

Process may be 3 for 3. Outcome is 0 for 3. At some point that matters.
JDM? C'mon, tell me you're going to call out Bloom for not re-signing Martinez? The guy that the overwhelming majority of folks here said was cooked last season? Were you in the camp that was upset over the lack of him being moved at the trade deadline or were you longing for his return this season? Wacha... Were you among those who thought that Wacha's 2020 season may have been a one off and thinking $15M for 3-4 years (IIRC that's what he was originally looking to get) was a bit steep? I think most of us were of that mind.
 

tims4wins

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JDM? C'mon, tell me you're going to call out Bloom for not re-signing Martinez? The guy that the overwhelming majority of folks here said was cooked last season? Were you in the camp that was upset over the lack of him being moved at the trade deadline or were you longing for his return this season? Wacha... Were you among those who thought that Wacha's 2020 season may have been a one off and thinking $15M for 3-4 years (IIRC that's what he was originally looking to get) was a bit steep? I think most of us were of that mind.
It doesn't matter what I think. I don't get paid $5M? $8M? to make these decisions. The bottom line is that these guys have all performed at a high level this season after Bloom decided to let them walk. JDM's OPS is nearly 200 points higher than Turner's. And he is making $5M less.
 

soxhop411

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Maybe keep the offer on the table for the entire offseason and not bite off your nose to spite your face?
"It sounds like from some of what I've heard, Eovaldi's camp came back to the Red Sox and said 'okay, can we still get that offer back?' (The Red Sox) said no. That was after they got Masataka Yoshida, Kenley Jansen and Chris Martin
The money was already re-allocated by the time Nate came back to the sox. So are you now suggesting they just sit around twiddling their thumbs and risk the chance of not re-signing Nate, and not signing Yoshida, Jansen or Martin?

And if you are going to reply with "screw the CBT, and be like the Mets, PHI and SD.".... How is that going for them this season?... Spending like a drunken sailor guarantees nothing
 

chrisfont9

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My stance on Bloom is established, but this is a legitimate, honest question to you in the spirit of debate rather than internet snark: How many consecutive non-playoff seasons would it take to make you think Bloom had enough time and just couldn't get the job done? For example, if the Sox finish out of the playoffs (not losing records, not under-.500, but just out of the playoffs, meaning they cannot compete for a championship at all when the time the regular seasons ends) for the next 4 years, does Bloom still get the benefit of the doubt? You mentioned changing GMs every 5 years makes no sense and I can see the argument for that, but what would be the point at which you would say "maybe this isn't working?" And yes, I know they went to the ALCS in 21, I just mean going forward how many years would a team have to miss the playoffs to think that the GM had the ability to form relationships/do their thing, but their model (whatever it is) is broken?
I appreciate the spirit of the question. The problem for me is that I believe the ultimate reality lies well out of sight for people like us. Unlike the NBA, where we can name just about everyone in the organization and see the prospects years out, in baseball being the team that scores big in the international markets, or develops a new method for assessing talent, or figures out how to coach better development -- how the hell are we supposed to judge the guy at the top when he has numerous layers of people below him doing essential work? I am, as you can tell, deeply suspicious of the connection between short term major league team results and organizational quality.

I'm also not too impressed by statements like "they should have signed [player who is doing well]" when 28 other teams also didn't sign the guy but maybe shouldn't fire their front office either. If people want to express their concern that Bloom's tenure isn't going in the right direction, that's fine. But making definitive statements about how it's going based on almost none of the required information is where I can't really respect the POV.

Like it or not, we need beat reporters' help here and need to sleuth out the player development staff changes to even have an inkling of how it's going. Or wait for a long enough time to see if the farm system is paying off, which... it's like six years before even their first international class shows up near the bigs, and is one international pool spree enough information? The ideal outcome is a complete organization that knows what it's doing from top to bottom, which you aren't going to get with chaotic firings that lead to frequent, wholesale changes.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Obviously process matters, but at the end of the day,
Was his decision on Wacha correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on Eovaldi correct? Seemingly no.
Was his decision on JDM correct? Seemingly no.

Process may be 3 for 3. Outcome is 0 for 3. At some point that matters.
I'll push back a bit on JDM. It's clear that at this point in his career, JDM is strictly a DH. Turner can play first and third base in addition to DH so he offers some versatility that JDM doesn't. It also allows Casas to be benched against certain tough left handers. There is at least a somewhat credible right handed bat to play first base this year unlike in 2022.
On the pitching front however, I agree with you. Bloom went 0 fir 3 in my opinion.
 

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Seems like leaving the Sox fixed a lot of players, though. Isn’t it fair to wonder why? Like, Dave Bush has been the pitching coach for a while now, and in the organization for a long time, who exactly has he gotten good performances out of?
Well, there are also players like Vaz, Barnes, Xander, Franchy, Diekman, and others who are worse this season. Does it really tell us anything?
 

tims4wins

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The money was already re-allocated by the time Nate came back to the sox. So are you now suggesting they just sit around twiddling their thumbs and risk the chance of not re-signing Nate, and not signing Yoshida, Jansen or Martin?

And if you are going to reply with "screw the CBT, and be like the Mets, PHI and SD.".... How is that going for them this season?... Spending like a drunken sailor guarantees nothing
I mean your quote says it all. The Sox said, nah, we're good. But awesome that we have Jansen.
I'll push back a bit on JDM. It's clear that at this point in his career, JDM is strictly a DH. Turner can play first and third base in addition to DH so he offers some versatility that JDM doesn't. It also allows Casas to be benched against certain tough left handers. There is at least a somewhat credible right handed bat to play first base this year unlike in 2022.
On the pitching front however, I agree with you. Bloom went 0 fir 3 in my opinion.
2/3 of Turners plate appearances are at DH.
 

astrozombie

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Probably not. If we're talking four years missing the playoffs and time for his drafts to start paying dividends with no positive results, yeah, he should go. I don't see how answering that question is at all relevant to the here and now though.
It's relevant to me because outside of '21, this team has not been good. I have no real reason to think they are going to make the playoffs this year, or (and this is the most damning) that they have the players on the farm now that are going to help them be contenders, outside of a handful of players. I don't think Bloom has done a good job. A number of people on this board disagree with that assessment, either that Bloom has done a good job, or that he hasn't had the proper time to do a good job. I am just curious how long the pro-Bloom crowd thinks he should get before he has to show some kind of results.
 

richgedman'sghost

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But Turner isn't, and he's the Martinez replacement. You might want to slow down just a bit.
Right. Casas sucks at fielding. So his presence on the team vs. JDM doesn't exactly help. JT doesn't play the field. His OPS is worse than JDM's, by far. Neither Turner nor Casas help on D. Both are worse at hitting than JDM. So how are the Sox better off?
Where are you getting that Turner doesn't play in the field? Turner has played a number of games at first and third base this year. I think you're letting your hatred of Bloom get this best of you. At the very least, check a boxscore.
 

tims4wins

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Where are you getting that Turner doesn't play in the field? Turner has played a number of games at first and third base this year. I think you're letting your hatred of Bloom get this best of you. At the very least, check a boxscore.
2/3 of JT's plate appearances are as DH. Check the stats. At the very least.

JDM played "a number of games" in the field for the Sox as well.

Turner is a negative on baseball reference defensive WAR.
 
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Mueller's Twin Grannies

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This latest incident aside, Bloom's biggest crime as The Guy has been failing to trade away enough salary to get under the LT threshold last season. Depending on who you believe he turned down a "bad" offer from the Mets for JDM that would have done the trick or there was nobody interested in him. Maybe the answer lies somewhere in the middle and they weren't going to get under no matter what. Aside from that, I just don't see how he isn't just following marching orders from the FO. As to why everyone keeps saying 2024 or 2025, it's because we were conditioned, perhaps incorrectly, to believe that the "rebuild" would take three seasons and began the year after their last playoff run, meaning last season. But it could be longer.

If it's true that Bloom's deal is up after next year, then I think the decision is made this off-season, if not sooner, so they don't have a lame-duck president of baseball ops heading into a critical period, like they did with Dombrowski after 2019. If they are on-board with he and his plan, I suspect he gets an extension this year, IF his deal has no options. Anything else would be dancing with the devil.
 

richgedman'sghost

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2/3 of JT's plate appearances are as DH. Check the stats. At the very least.

JDM played "a number of games" in the field for the Sox as well.
Did you see where I quoted you. You literally said Turner doesn't play in the field. As you now admit, Turner has played at least some of the time at first and third base. So your initial statement was factually wrong. That's all I'm saying.
In addition, JDM has not played an inning in the field for the Dodgers this year and only played 1 game in the field last year. I don't care what position he played in 2019 or 2018.
 

tims4wins

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Did you see where I quoted you. You literally said Turner doesn't play in the field. As you now admit, Turner has played at least some of the time at first and third base. So your initial statement was factually wrong. That's all I'm saying.
Correct. He plays the field. With a negative defensive WAR per b-ref. Yay Chaim!!!!!!!
 

grepal

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But what does that do? Appease the writers? The fan base? Take a look at any of the preseason rankings from this year - BR for example.
  1. Houston - currently fighting for a wildcard.
  2. Braves - 1st in division, .613 WP.
  3. Mets - spent a shitload of money. Currently sporting a losing record, not even in the playoff picture.
  4. Yankees - currently fighting for a wildcard (although with a .578 WP, thanks AL E).
  5. Padres - same as the Mets.
  6. Phillies - Losing record.
  7. Dodgers - currently fighting for a wildcard.
  8. Blue Jays - currently fighting for a wildcard (although with a .563 WP, thanks AL E).
So the Sox could have the same record and a $400 million dollar payroll. Sounds a lot worse to me.



Bello looks legit. Houck and Whitlock less so, but they're not nothing. Drohan might be something. I don't disagree that we haven't exactly modeled the Tampa Bay pitching development machine. Very few teams do. But having cheap, cost-controlled talent elsewhere on the roster (shortstop, outfield, first base, catcher, etc.) allows them to sign talent in free agency or trade for talent without killing the future of the franchise. There are a lot ways to dice it.
It is fair 8n spite of the division..we know who is in the division and whom we are competing with. Do the Sox have what it takes and the will to do what it takes to compete. The fact that Kluber still wears the information tells me we do not. That and a dozen or so other things.. Sale on the 60 day. Oh well in 10 days we will know if we even have a chance
 

YTF

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It doesn't matter what I think. I don't get paid $5M? $8M? to make these decisions. The bottom line is that these guys have all performed at a high level this season after Bloom decided to let them walk. JDM's OPS is nearly 200 points higher than Turner's. And he is making $5M less.
And your position is that Bloom should have anticipated this?
 

Auger34

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The team is middle of the pack or slightly worse in pretty much everything. Current record, under 26 talent, farm system.

Chaim has done a mediocre job. His two biggest wins, thus far, are Yoshida and Whitlock. Mayer literally fell into his lap so I struggle to give him too much credit for that

The farm system is improving but it almost has to when you keep all of your draft picks and barely trade away any of your prospects.

I don’t quite understand why there are so many posters who aggressively come to Blooms defense as if he’s been amazing and he deserves no criticism. These same posters often post with more than a little condescension and snark. It’s over the top and I don’t get what Bloom has done to deserve that type of leash and faith, other than the fact he’s an executive of our favorite team
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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In 60 games played this season, Turner has played the field in 24 of them (16 at 1B, 4 at 3B and 4 at 2B). In 186 games played last season and this season Martinez has played 1 game in LF.
Turner has like a 650 OPS when playing the field, maybe he should just DH.
 
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