How to get back in this thing

jtn46

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Maybe I’m misreading this but it’s weird to have Kevin Gausman’s name in there when he’s been fantastic this season thus far. I think he definitely would have helped them this season
And maybe he will sustain that for the duration of the contract, but pitchers over 30 are often a poor investment. It makes sense for the Jays because they have a great young, cheap core that can get a WS title with pieces like Gausman added, but the Sox don’t have that, they have some really good players but those players aren’t cheap anymore. Adding Gausman now to push a 4th place team to a 3rd place team is exactly how they end up not being able to afford to keep say, Devers around. The Mookie situation, but at least that was a successful WS push.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Isn't this what every team tries to achieve? Build around the veterans you have. Insert your minor leaguers whom you have developed and plug your holes on the FA market.
Sure, but if you trade Devers…next years team looks like the below…..lot of money to spend, but man, that’s a lot of holes.

LF- Verdugo
RF- (Franchy)
CF- (Duran)
3B-
SS- Story
2B- Arroyo
1B- (Casas)
C-
DH-
Bench- (Arauz), (Wong), (Davis)

SP: Sale, Paxton, Pivetta, Houck, Whitlock
RP: Barnes, Diekman, Davis, Brasier, Crawford, Sawa
 

chawson

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Story currently has a negative WAR for the year, wanted to sign in Texas to play shortstop instead of Boston to play 2B, and got so upset that his agents blew the negotiations with the Rangers by being overaggressive that he's just fired the lot of them. He may not even want to be here.
I’m with you with some of the anger but this is completely off the rails, man.

Again, Story took a couple weeks to get going because of the late signing and his illness, but his bat has been fine since. The numbers look bad like everyone else in baseball. But over the last three weeks, the bat speed is back and the exit velocity is back. He’s fine!

There’s plenty of legitimate stuff to gripe about without making up a narrative that he doesn’t want to be here.
 

Toe Nash

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It is funny to compare this thread with the season predictions thread where the median prediction was like 89-90 wins. I was on the pessimistic side with 75 but I thought the starting pitching would be the problem and not the offense. I think the real talent is somewhere around .500 or a bit over (but a tough division knocks it down) which is a tough place to be...but sometimes if you have that level of talent and you add a few good pieces you get lucky and make a playoff run. It's also the place where the marginal value of adding a good player or two is high.

The big whiff this offseason was not really adding those pieces (even if gambles) on shorter money/years and ending up with the situations at first base, the bullpen and the outfield, but there wasn't a lot out there and the lockout made it tough. They also don't have a lot of AAAA pieces or other prospects that are close to MLB ready because of Dombrowski, but hopefully those are coming. I see people above talking about wasting the core of X, Devers and Eovaldi but while those are nice players, it's not a core that's going to carry you that far without Sale, Betts, E-Rod, etc.. You need to get to the next round of stars because we weren't developing many for a while, we didn't re-sign a couple and the team just isn't going to have a Dodgers-level payroll.

Signing Devers might feel nice after losing Betts but you're still going to need your prospects to pan out just like basically every team. If Casas, Yorke, Mayer are producing 3-5+ WAR in 2025 and you either re-signed Devers or traded him for something decent, and you made a shrewd FA signing here and there, then you're in very good shape.
 

catomatic

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Purely an anecdotal snapshot, but watching the end of last nights debacle, the park seemed loaded with pretty enthusiastic young people. And I got that vibe at the 10 or so games I went to last year. I agree, more day games, particularly playoff/World Series games, would be a good idea. But I'm not sure the Sox are as dead with the under 30 crowd as many speculate. Of course, they consume media and entertainment in a completely different way than their parents and grandparents do, so there are probably challenges quantifying their level of interest.
I take your point - I was thinking more about the under-17 crowd, to be specific, but I think given lights and cameras they’ve engineered themselves out of that era, entirely. The tree is no longer fed at the roots in that particular way. There’s a parallel to the reproductive practices of the Shakers in here but I can’t quite come up with it…
 

nvalvo

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It is funny to compare this thread with the season predictions thread where the median prediction was like 89-90 wins. I was on the pessimistic side with 75 but I thought the starting pitching would be the problem and not the offense. I think the real talent is somewhere around .500 or a bit over (but a tough division knocks it down) which is a tough place to be...but sometimes if you have that level of talent and you add a few good pieces you get lucky and make a playoff run. It's also the place where the marginal value of adding a good player or two is high.
This is a good point. I was in that 89-90 range (I don't remember exactly), but I was worried about the rotation, especially Wacha and Hill. As the first month of the season has actually played out, Wacha and Hill have led a strong rotation and every other phase of the team that has scuffled.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
 

cantor44

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Cost savings and payroll efficiency are the name of the game, not wins and losses, and if that means a year where you win 80 games instead of 91 because your bargain basement moves don't pan out, well, that's the risk of this particular approach.
[/QUOTE]
It gives me a very sad feeling in my stomach reading that sentence. You may be right. How depressing.
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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We’re one year removed from Bloom putting together a roster that was 2 losses from a World Series.
I’ll give his “fail/win” vote more than another year….
 

A Bad Man

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I am frustrated, too, but it’s still much too early to give up on this season. After a long winter, the first weeks of baseball are always like this. It makes me think of Chris Shelton and Eric Thames; we thought they might be gods.
There are areas of immediate concern (Matt Barnes, for one), but the team will get hot and come July we’ll be around .500, not .385. We’ll also have three times as much information to go on.
 

BravesField

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Oct 27, 2021
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[QUOTE="Sandy Leon Trotsky, post: 4977385, member: 3139
We’re one year removed from Bloom putting together a roster that was 2 losses from a World Series.
I’ll give his “fail/win” vote more than another year….
[/QUOTE]
Many people have pointed that out and it is very true. But look at last year and consider this......Without Sale and Schwarber, the Sox were 55-36 at the break, but after the break, and getting Sale and Schwarber, who played very well, - they were 37-34. So what was the team that was only 2 wins from the World Series? I always thought that if there was another week of baseball to be played last year, the Jays might have passed us.
 

BravesField

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Oct 27, 2021
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Sure, but if you trade Devers…next years team looks like the below…..lot of money to spend, but man, that’s a lot of holes.

LF- Verdugo
RF- (Franchy)
CF- (Duran)
3B-
SS- Story
2B- Arroyo
1B- (Casas)
C-
DH-
Bench- (Arauz), (Wong), (Davis)

SP: Sale, Paxton, Pivetta, Houck, Whitlock
RP: Barnes, Diekman, Davis, Brasier, Crawford, Sawa
Very Very True. That is a lot of holes. Xander, JDM, Kike, Vazquez, Plawecki could all be FA this off season. Can't be helped. Dalbec, Duran and Casas are going to be asked (expected) to fill some holes. Opportunities also for Downs, Davis, Hamilton, Wong to step up. Perhaps we sign some of our FA or bring in some new guys. We'll have the money for sure. But 2023 Sox could be a very very different team
 

Sandy Leon Trotsky

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[QUOTE="Sandy Leon Trotsky, post: 4977385, member: 3139
We’re one year removed from Bloom putting together a roster that was 2 losses from a World Series.
I’ll give his “fail/win” vote more than another year….
Many people have pointed that out and it is very true. But look at last year and consider this......Without Sale and Schwarber, the Sox were 55-36 at the break, but after the break, and getting Sale and Schwarber, who played very well, - they were 37-34. So what was the team that was only 2 wins from the World Series? I always thought that if there was another week of baseball to be played last year, the Jays might have passed us.
[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter though what could have transpired if/when if this/that happened. Bloom put together a team that was capable of getting to the world series and almost did. You think he should put together an All Star team that will guarantee a WS win? Can't happen. The payroll was to the ceiling. There were several teams that were possibly "better"... I thought last year that the Rays, Jays and even Yankees were "better" but they underperformed.
I'm still very much team Bloom and think he's doing a pretty damned good job with what the constraints are... with balancing both long term plans with short term plans and likely some serious budget demands from Henry. Seriously.... sorry, but anyone calling for Bloom to be F'in fired at this point is an entitled shitstick. I would even argue that if they end up below .500 at the end of the season.
 

chawson

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There's been a little too much economic reasoning around here. It's a pleasure to watch the Mets win after their FO went out and spent a bunch of money on good players. I wouldn't be surprised if the stalled contract negotiations with X and Devers have affected the clubhouse in some way.

Bloom has done a great job rebuilding the system, for sure. But I think he's overstating the value of financial flexibility moving forward. There's a whole mess of issues with the ball this year and I'm sure that has added to frustrations. But more and more, it looks like the Red Sox simply have a shortage of good players, and that shortage extends to those under contract for the 2023-24 teams. Is the plan really that 2025 is the next contention window? Because a 5-year rebuild should be unacceptable for a major-market team.

Why not call the Reds and ask their price for Joey Votto and Tyler Mahle? Mahle's a very good pitcher who's been terribly unlucky that surely they will trade. Votto's comments about how "embarrassing" the Reds are indicate he'd be open to a change of scenery. You could platoon Votto with Dalbec, IL him until he figures something out, tell him he's next year's DH, DFA him -- who cares, he’s off the books at the end of 2023 and paying him next year doesn't hurt us at all. Offer Mahle -- who has the same FIP as Jose Berrios, Luis Castillo and Robbie Ray the last two years -- an extension worth like 4/$90M. If he doesn't take it, trade him again at the 2023 deadline and restock your assets. Just use money creatively to get good players even if you don't immediately receive surplus value.

Otherwise, what is this prized payroll flexibility going to be good for? Which of next offseason's free agents do people here think is worth pursuing? The only one I can see throwing good money at is Joe Musgrove, and I think it's very likely he stays in San Diego (where he's from). There are some interesting role players (and a few decent starting catchers) but nothing that steers us into contention if we're losing Hernandez, Eovaldi, Bogaerts and JDM (and possibly Devers).
 

themactavish

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Aug 4, 2010
41
St. Cloud, MN
There's been a little too much economic reasoning around here. It's a pleasure to watch the Mets win after their FO went out and spent a bunch of money on good players. I wouldn't be surprised if the stalled contract negotiations with X and Devers have affected the clubhouse in some way.

Bloom has done a great job rebuilding the system, for sure. But I think he's overstating the value of financial flexibility moving forward. There's a whole mess of issues with the ball this year and I'm sure that has added to frustrations. But more and more, it looks like the Red Sox simply have a shortage of good players, and that shortage extends to those under contract for the 2023-24 teams. Is the plan really that 2025 is the next contention window? Because a 5-year rebuild should be unacceptable for a major-market team.

Why not call the Reds and ask their price for Joey Votto and Tyler Mahle? Mahle's a very good pitcher who's been terribly unlucky that surely they will trade. Votto's comments about how "embarrassing" the Reds are indicate he'd be open to a change of scenery. You could platoon Votto with Dalbec, IL him until he figures something out, tell him he's next year's DH, DFA him -- who cares, he’s off the books at the end of 2023 and paying him next year doesn't hurt us at all. Offer Mahle -- who has the same FIP as Jose Berrios, Luis Castillo and Robbie Ray the last two years -- an extension worth like 4/$90M. If he doesn't take it, trade him again at the 2023 deadline and restock your assets. Just use money creatively to get good players even if you don't immediately receive surplus value.

Otherwise, what is this prized payroll flexibility going to be good for? Which of next offseason's free agents do people here think is worth pursuing? The only one I can see throwing good money at is Joe Musgrove, and I think it's very likely he stays in San Diego (where he's from). There are some interesting role players (and a few decent starting catchers) but nothing that steers us into contention if we're losing Hernandez, Eovaldi, Bogaerts and JDM (and possibly Devers).
Maybe Votto will bounce back, but at the moment, he's hitting .122, with 29 Ks in 74 ABs, and an OPS of .413 (Dalbec @ .147 with 25 Ks in 75 ABs, and an OPS of .444).
 

BaseballJones

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Maybe this...

Deal Vazquez, Duran, and a couple of decent minor leaguers to the Cubs for Wilson Contreras and Jayson Heyward.

Contreras is 30, and is a solid offensive catcher. Last four years of ops+: 127, 106, 107, 114. He becomes a free agent after this season, so he could get expensive.

Hayward is 32, and has one more year after this left of his 8/184 deal (23m/yr). He's also not that good anymore, putting up a 68 ops+ last year, and an 85 ops+ this year. BUT...he's a better hitter than JBJ, so he'd represent some offensive improvement, albeit at a really high cost.

The Cubs would shed a lot of money this year, and add a potentially good young player in Duran (and who knows about the prospects). Boston would pick up a lot of salary in 2022 and 2023, presuming they sign Contreras for a few more seasons. But the Sox have money. They'd be getting an upgrade in the OF (not because Heyward is so good, but because JBJ is so bad) and at C (both because Vaz is bad but also because Contreras is really good). Then after 2023, Heyward is gone and the Sox roll with whoever they need in the OF after that, while still having a quality offensive catcher in Contreras.
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
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That Chavis kid is playing pretty well in Pittsburgh. Maybe they can get him? :ducks:
One downside to the expectation of contention every year is that it can be tough to be patient with guys. Think of Lowrie, Reddick, Brandon Moss, they all blossomed in Oakland.
 

Kliq

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And maybe he will sustain that for the duration of the contract, but pitchers over 30 are often a poor investment. It makes sense for the Jays because they have a great young, cheap core that can get a WS title with pieces like Gausman added, but the Sox don’t have that, they have some really good players but those players aren’t cheap anymore. Adding Gausman now to push a 4th place team to a 3rd place team is exactly how they end up not being able to afford to keep say, Devers around. The Mookie situation, but at least that was a successful WS push.
If your philosophy is to never sign anyone who might offer incremental value to your team because your team will never be THAT much better with just that one player, you would never sign anybody short of a Mike Trout-type player (oh wait, the Red Sox had one of those guys and traded him away).

I think it's kind of bullshit to say that the Red Sox signing Gausman wouldn't have pushed them much higher than they currently are, and thus it was smart to not sign them. You could use that same philosophy for arguing that the Red Sox were smart to stay away from Schwarber, Robbie Ray, Seiya Suzuki, or any other free agent that would have helped this current team, but maybe not take them from fourth place to first. The problem was the Red Sox did very little in the off-season, traded away one of their better-performing players, and the one big signing they did make is off to a terrible start.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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Is Contreras that much better a bet at his age than Wong or Hernández?
I'd think so. He's just 30 - it's not like he's 35. And he's hitting really well, and has for four straight seasons. His career ops+ is 112. That's a number we can only hope and pray that either Wong or Hernandez reaches.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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What’s the value in trading for Contreras now? Couldn’t they wait until the off-season if they want him? Not sure I understand that deal. Giving up Duran for nothing of long term value seems suspect.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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What’s the value in trading for Contreras now? Couldn’t they wait until the off-season if they want him? Not sure I understand that deal. Giving up Duran for nothing of long term value seems suspect.
The idea would be that it helps improve the team NOW while they still have time to get back into the playoff hunt.
 

moondog80

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Maybe this...

Deal Vazquez, Duran, and a couple of decent minor leaguers to the Cubs for Wilson Contreras and Jayson Heyward.

Contreras is 30, and is a solid offensive catcher. Last four years of ops+: 127, 106, 107, 114. He becomes a free agent after this season, so he could get expensive.

Hayward is 32, and has one more year after this left of his 8/184 deal (23m/yr). He's also not that good anymore, putting up a 68 ops+ last year, and an 85 ops+ this year. BUT...he's a better hitter than JBJ, so he'd represent some offensive improvement, albeit at a really high cost.

The Cubs would shed a lot of money this year, and add a potentially good young player in Duran (and who knows about the prospects). Boston would pick up a lot of salary in 2022 and 2023, presuming they sign Contreras for a few more seasons. But the Sox have money. They'd be getting an upgrade in the OF (not because Heyward is so good, but because JBJ is so bad) and at C (both because Vaz is bad but also because Contreras is really good). Then after 2023, Heyward is gone and the Sox roll with whoever they need in the OF after that, while still having a quality offensive catcher in Contreras.

Heyward has massive negative value, about 40 mil for player who might end up DFA. 5 months of Contreras isn't worth taking on the contract, never mind giving up Duran.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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The idea would be that it helps improve the team NOW while they still have time to get back into the playoff hunt.
And we know that the Cubs are not interested in trying to get back into the playoff hunt themselves? They're closer to first place in their division than the Sox are in theirs (a half game, but still). Guess I'm just wondering why the Cubs are going to do that deal NOW instead of waiting until June or July when their own season's trajectory is more clear.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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And we know that the Cubs are not interested in trying to get back into the playoff hunt themselves? They're closer to first place in their division than the Sox are in theirs (a half game, but still). Guess I'm just wondering why the Cubs are going to do that deal NOW instead of waiting until June or July when their own season's trajectory is more clear.
Yeah, no I have no idea if the Cubs would do it. Or if the Red Sox would do it. I'm just saying that if I was the GM, I'd consider approaching the Cubs on something like that.
 

Max Power

thai good. you like shirt?
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Heyward has massive negative value, about 40 mil for player who might end up DFA. 5 months of Contreras isn't worth taking on the contract, never mind giving up Duran.
The Cubs also aren't a poor team. I'd guess they'd rather get decent prospects in return for Contreras and keep Heyward on the books than use him to try to clear more salary.
 

chawson

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Maybe Votto will bounce back, but at the moment, he's hitting .122, with 29 Ks in 74 ABs, and an OPS of .413 (Dalbec @ .147 with 25 Ks in 75 ABs, and an OPS of .444).
He probably won’t bounce back. Doesn’t matter. The point is that he (or Moustakas) is the cost of getting Mahle. Who’s just about as good a pitcher as Montas if you normalize their ballparks.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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Maybe this...

Deal Vazquez, Duran, and a couple of decent minor leaguers to the Cubs for Wilson Contreras and Jayson Heyward.

Contreras is 30, and is a solid offensive catcher. Last four years of ops+: 127, 106, 107, 114. He becomes a free agent after this season, so he could get expensive.

Hayward is 32, and has one more year after this left of his 8/184 deal (23m/yr). He's also not that good anymore, putting up a 68 ops+ last year, and an 85 ops+ this year. BUT...he's a better hitter than JBJ, so he'd represent some offensive improvement, albeit at a really high cost.

The Cubs would shed a lot of money this year, and add a potentially good young player in Duran (and who knows about the prospects). Boston would pick up a lot of salary in 2022 and 2023, presuming they sign Contreras for a few more seasons. But the Sox have money. They'd be getting an upgrade in the OF (not because Heyward is so good, but because JBJ is so bad) and at C (both because Vaz is bad but also because Contreras is really good). Then after 2023, Heyward is gone and the Sox roll with whoever they need in the OF after that, while still having a quality offensive catcher in Contreras.
So you are ok with over the cap penalties for THIS deal?
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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So you are ok with over the cap penalties for THIS deal?
I'm trying to think of a way to add talent without giving up too much. One way to do that is to "buy" talent by taking on additional salary. Yes that comes with a cost.

Anyone with a better idea that's also REALISTIC, I'm all ears.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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I'm trying to think of a way to add talent without giving up too much. One way to do that is to "buy" talent by taking on additional salary. Yes that comes with a cost.

Anyone with a better idea that's also REALISTIC, I'm all ears.
I’d like to see another week or two and what Duran can provide before spending that kind of money on one guy who will take us from 65 wins to 72 wins* with draft penalties due to the trade.





*all win totals estimated with my flux capacitor with side fumbling reduction
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
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I’d like to see another week or two and what Duran can provide before spending that kind of money on one guy who will take us from 65 wins to 72 wins* with draft penalties due to the trade.





*all win totals estimated with my flux capacitor with side fumbling reduction
I'm good with that. I'm not in panic mode. I'm just exploring ideas.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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It’s difficult to see where they could make a deal; presumably they don’t want to give up much in the way of prospects given that the team isn’t doing that well. There’s not much in the way of excess value in the big league club- ie players who have value and could be replaced by call ups. Maybe something like Eovaldi for a pitcher they could control longer (Clevinger?) but that’s a downgrade for this year at least. I still think dealing a LH reliever for a RH one would help but hard to see how any of these moves would make much of an impact.
 

jtn46

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If your philosophy is to never sign anyone who might offer incremental value to your team because your team will never be THAT much better with just that one player, you would never sign anybody short of a Mike Trout-type player (oh wait, the Red Sox had one of those guys and traded him away).

I think it's kind of bullshit to say that the Red Sox signing Gausman wouldn't have pushed them much higher than they currently are, and thus it was smart to not sign them. You could use that same philosophy for arguing that the Red Sox were smart to stay away from Schwarber, Robbie Ray, Seiya Suzuki, or any other free agent that would have helped this current team, but maybe not take them from fourth place to first. The problem was the Red Sox did very little in the off-season, traded away one of their better-performing players, and the one big signing they did make is off to a terrible start.
No I think for the Jays it made perfect sense, they have a young core ready to win and shouldn’t waste it dumpster diving for starting pitchers. I don’t have a problem with Dombrowski going for it when he did for the same reason, I liked the Sale extension at the time even, except that he created a choice between a bad team with an inflexible payroll but with Mookie Betts locked up or a bad team with a more flexible payroll but without Mookie Betts.

If Bloom signed Gausman just so we would be more competitive in 2022, but it made extending Xander and/or Raffy much more difficult that would be a disaster. The Jays will likely get into a spot like that themselves in a few years as Vlad and Bichette near FA, but I think they probably recognize that creating a perennial 95-win team with a more modest payroll is less realistic than it may be for us and giving their core the best chance possible to win now and worrying about having to dismantle that team later is worth the gamble. I think Bloom’s idea for us even is a bit of a fairy tale, to be honest, but the division is really, really good so unless ownership is willing to repeatedly get hit with bigger and bigger tax penalties, it’s a better plan than overpaying the best available free agents ignorant of the talent gap between us and the 3 teams ahead of us.
 

chawson

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Maybe this...

Deal Vazquez, Duran, and a couple of decent minor leaguers to the Cubs for Wilson Contreras and Jayson Heyward.

Contreras is 30, and is a solid offensive catcher. Last four years of ops+: 127, 106, 107, 114. He becomes a free agent after this season, so he could get expensive.

Hayward is 32, and has one more year after this left of his 8/184 deal (23m/yr). He's also not that good anymore, putting up a 68 ops+ last year, and an 85 ops+ this year. BUT...he's a better hitter than JBJ, so he'd represent some offensive improvement, albeit at a really high cost.

The Cubs would shed a lot of money this year, and add a potentially good young player in Duran (and who knows about the prospects). Boston would pick up a lot of salary in 2022 and 2023, presuming they sign Contreras for a few more seasons. But the Sox have money. They'd be getting an upgrade in the OF (not because Heyward is so good, but because JBJ is so bad) and at C (both because Vaz is bad but also because Contreras is really good). Then after 2023, Heyward is gone and the Sox roll with whoever they need in the OF after that, while still having a quality offensive catcher in Contreras.
I agree this sort of thing is what the Sox should be doing more of but why take on two years of Heyward’s salary for a rental? Bloom will probably sign one of Contreras, Zunino or Narvaez to replace Vazquez this off-season anyway. I’m not sure what this particular trade accomplishes besides potentially increasing the overall bidding on Contreras by effectively removing his QO (if they keep that compensation system).
 

Daniel_Son

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1. They're not going to tear down the club and swing big trades 36 games into the season. Other clubs are still figuring out where they stand, too.
2. Why would they trade Devers now? He's only got 2 years of control left - what could they realistically get back that would be provide equal or greater value? I don't think you extend him now either. Stay the course, offer him a fair deal once he hits free agency, and hope he likes Boston enough to stick around.
3. Same with trading Houck - I'm pissed at the whole antivax crap too, but he's a good, cost-controlled, young starting pitcher. When's the last time we've had a player like that in our system? Buchholz? You don't trade him. Period.

There's no help coming from external sources until the trade deadline. So what can they do internally?

1. Let's see who else can stick from AAA. Promoting Duran is the right move, I want to see more of that. The major league bench is absolutely dismal right now - can Downs/Fitzgerald/Sanchez/whoever else provide more value? I mean, can you really be worse? Same goes with the pen. I don't think you can learn anything new from watching Deikman, Sawamura, Crawford, and the other dreck cough up leads. They stink, we know it. Let someone else have a shot.
2. I've said it before, but the team is dead-last in pitches seen per plate appearance. We need to be more patient at the plate, especially in today's game where starters have a rigid pitch count limit. Make the opposing pitcher work, drive up his pitch count, and get to the bullpen that much quicker. Get on base by any means possible. That means Bobby Dalbec, JBJ, and the rest of the bottom of the lineup drawing walks, slapping singles, whatever. I don't give a shit that Dalbec is hitting the ball harder than anyone in the majors - when those hits are straight at the opposing fielders, it doesn't do any good. They need a different approach, and that starts with Pete Fatse and Alex Cora.
3. Related, stop pulling every starting pitcher after the fifth inning regardless. Yesterday, Hill had 1 hit and 6 Ks through 5 innings on 68 pitches. The day before - Whitlock, 5 IP, 9Ks, 2 hits on 78 pitches. The bullpen is absolutely exhausted a month into the season because of it.

Fortunately, the team is less than 40 games into the season. Re-enforcements from AAA on the bench and in the pen, more patient hitting, and longer outings from our solid starting pitching might just be enough to right the ship.
 
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Feb 6, 2018
2,518
Florida
I am frustrated, too, but it’s still much too early to give up on this season. After a long winter, the first weeks of baseball are always like this. It makes me think of Chris Shelton and Eric Thames; we thought they might be gods.
There are areas of immediate concern (Matt Barnes, for one), but the team will get hot and come July we’ll be around .500, not .385. We’ll also have three times as much information to go on.
This team might not even win 70 games. They need to get what they can for JDM and Nate and listen to offers for X. I appreciate your optimism, however.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
20,935
I think a lot of the panic was unwarranted but at some point, the hole is too deep to dig out of. I'm not sure 10-17 is that, but it's pretty close. What does their record have to be at game 40 for people to give up entirely on the season? I'd go with 15-25 or worse. Or if they fall 10 games below .500 before 40 games. Earliest that could happen is game 30.
 

gattman

lurker
Jul 15, 2005
135
Silver Spring, MD
I think a lot of the panic was unwarranted but at some point, the hole is too deep to dig out of. I'm not sure 10-17 is that, but it's pretty close. What does their record have to be at game 40 for people to give up entirely on the season? I'd go with 15-25 or worse. Or if they fall 10 games below .500 before 40 games. Earliest that could happen is game 30.
I don’t think it’s panic time, but I certainly think it’s re-evaluate time. I doubt Bloom & Co came into this year thinking that thiis would be a last place team. At the same time, they are where they are, so sitting on their hands and hoping things will suddenly turn around doesn’t seem like a sound strategy. So what are the interim, short-term steps? They’ve called up Duran (I think they’ll find a way for him to stick), but what else? I think Casas will be here soon. And maybe Fitzy before that. There are certainly some bullpen arms that can come up.

And if by late June/early July things haven’t turned around then it’s probably time to see what pieces you can sell off. But for now, it seems early.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
687
San Diego
I don’t think it’s panic time, but I certainly think it’s re-evaluate time. I doubt Bloom & Co came into this year thinking that thiis would be a last place team. At the same time, they are where they are, so sitting on their hands and hoping things will suddenly turn around doesn’t seem like a sound strategy. So what are the interim, short-term steps? They’ve called up Duran (I think they’ll find a way for him to stick), but what else? I think Casas will be here soon. And maybe Fitzy before that. There are certainly some bullpen arms that can come up.

And if by late June/early July things haven’t turned around then it’s probably time to see what pieces you can sell off. But for now, it seems early.
I'd say Fitzgerald, Winchowski, Seabold, Downs, Johan Meises, and Yolmer Sanchez are all guys who I'd like to see get promoted within the next month or so. Casas + Feldman right behind them.
 

Mueller's Twin Grannies

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 19, 2009
8,096
Downs has struggled at AAA while at the launching pad that is Polar Park. Asking him to try to hit ML pitching is probably too much to expect.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
20,935
I'd say Fitzgerald, Winchowski, Seabold, Downs, Johan Meises, and Yolmer Sanchez are all guys who I'd like to see get promoted within the next month or so. Casas + Feldman right behind them.
How would you make room for them all? That would require cleaning house.
 

jon abbey

Shanghai Warrior
Dope
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
62,031
I'd say Fitzgerald, Winchowski, Seabold, Downs, Johan Meises, and Yolmer Sanchez are all guys who I'd like to see get promoted within the next month or so. Casas + Feldman right behind them.
What are your proposed 40 man moves for all these guys?
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
Lifetime Member
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Apr 25, 2002
77,898
Oregon
What are your proposed 40 man moves for all these guys?
I remember reading a Letter to the Sports Editor long ago from a fan (a kid, I hope) who said the Red Sox should trade away all their bad players and get good players in return.
 

Daniel_Son

Member
SoSH Member
May 25, 2021
687
San Diego
What are your proposed 40 man moves for all these guys?
Doesn't need to be all of them at once. Crespo is right- a month is ambitious, if not impossible, but if the Sox continue playing the way they have been for the next 30 days then I don't think there's any point in keeping some of the current guys on the roster.

Within the next month, however, I'd like to see either Sanchez or Fitzgerald replace Arauz. Arroyo is probably the next guy I'd cut bait on.
 
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Rovin Romine

Johnny Rico
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Jul 14, 2005
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I think a lot of the panic was unwarranted but at some point, the hole is too deep to dig out of. I'm not sure 10-17 is that, but it's pretty close. What does their record have to be at game 40 for people to give up entirely on the season? I'd go with 15-25 or worse. Or if they fall 10 games below .500 before 40 games. Earliest that could happen is game 30.
Beyond the record at that time, I think the 40 game mark is a pretty good spot to assess the team's strengths and weaknesses. So 10 games below .500 at 30 would be a disaster. But a 12-2 streak fixes that by game 45 or so. The question then becomes what's the true talent level of the team?

By the records of the individual players, there's currently a lot of under-performance. Perhaps that's recoverable this season, and perhaps it isn't. That said, many of our underperformers have a history of streakiness - Hernandez, Dalbec, JBJ. Having one or more of them get hot can lengthen the lineup and take pressure off of the big 3.

It would help if we had a hot callup or two (pitching or hitting) who could deliver before the league got a book on them. (Crawford was probably supposed to be that guy. Wrong pick on somebody's part.) If we get really lucky, Duran or Franchy might provide that kind of "artificial" streak in lieu of one of the slumping outfielders.