Hunter Renfroe traded to Brewers for JBJ and 2 prospects

Wake49

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That’s unfair to say. From May 5-25, 2016, JBJ hit .449/.525/.841/1.366 with 7 homers, 6 doubles, 11 BBs, and 12 k in 80 PAs over 19 games. He had massive mojo for those three weeks.
So five years ago he figured out how to hit for three weeks. Great.
 

joe dokes

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I was thinking the exact same thing. This team has got Yawkey Way Fire Sale written all over it. And frankly speaking, I think Bloom would be OK with a reset.
Firing Cora wasn't enough? Now they're gonna fire Sale?
I'm joking because you must be. All
because they traded Hunter Renfroe?
 

joe dokes

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Or is has the same thing that last year's team had. Let's have a bunch of guys on short term deals and then evaluate how everyone looks in July. If they're in the mix at midseason they aren't going to fire sale.
Last year? You mean when the Bloom cost the team a shot at the playoffs at the trade deadline? Is that the best evidence you've got?
 

scottyno

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Last year? You mean when the Bloom cost the team a shot at the playoffs at the trade deadline? Is that the best evidence you've got?
Should have traded Renfroe for JBJ at last year's trade deadline. Jackie woudn't have gone 1/16 in the alcs!
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I think the point is that the team should be a playoff contender but also has the flexibility to take advantage, if not, since they have a significant amount of expiring contracts and almost no long term commitments. It’s not any kind of indictment if Bloom, it’s a positive that they have flexibility to go in any direction based on how the team is doing.
 

mfried

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It sounded like that both the Sox and Phillies were in on Schwarber. I doubt that the Sox would want to continue the first base experiment from the playoffs which leaves only RF and DH as options. Unless they trade JD, the only realistic spot for Schwarber is RF.
Verdugo would be in right. Schwarber and JDM would play in LF. If JBJ starts it will be in center with Kike on 2nd, where he would play well if stabilized in that position. If JBJ is 4th OF, we may be waiting for a RF not yet signed.
 

patinorange

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So five years ago he figured out how to hit for three weeks. Great.
JBJ is, was, and always will be a shitty hitter. And he's not getting any younger.
Hernandez at second and JBJ in center makes this team a significantly worse defensive team.
A middle infield of Hernandez and Xander is not good.
There has to be more to this.
 

chawson

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It seems fairly clear to me that Kiké is the primary center fielder and unless someone dramatically overbids on Schwarber, the Sox plan to sign him and trade JDM and/or Dalbec. But who’s to say.
 

scottyno

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JBJ is, was, and always will be a shitty hitter. And he's not getting any younger.
Hernandez at second and JBJ in center makes this team a significantly worse defensive team.
A middle infield of Hernandez and Xander is not good.
There has to be more to this.
Do you mean a significantly worse offensive team? Hernandez was a very good defensive 2b when he played it semi regularly and JBJ is still elite in center.
 

Humphrey

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Five days away from the 45th anniversary of the reacquisition from the Milwaukee Brewers of another Gold Glove defender
That sucked, as I recall. Scott was finished after one season. Cecil Cooper, on the other hand, gave the Brewers several great years.
 

patinorange

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Do you mean a significantly worse offensive team? Hernandez was a very good defensive 2b when he played it semi regularly and JBJ is still elite in center.
I don't think Hernandez is good at all at second, poor range and a lousy DP turn. He is maybe a couple of ticks below JBJ in center (in other words, very damn good)
With a great defensive shortstop, he would be adequate at second, but we don't have a great defensive shortstop. I really don't think they will take Hernandez out of center full time. At least I hope not.
 

joe dokes

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I don't think Hernandez is good at all at second, poor range and a lousy DP turn. He is maybe a couple of ticks below JBJ in center (in other words, very damn good)
With a great defensive shortstop, he would be adequate at second, but we don't have a great defensive shortstop. I really don't think they will take Hernandez out of center full time. At least I hope not.
I don't either. As things stand now (fwiw) I think we'll see a lot of JBJ in RF, where he will be a substantial improvement, and a worthwhile one if he can just get back to being a shitty hitter instead of not a hitter.
But Kiké probably will play more 2B than you'd like.
 

scottyno

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I don't think Hernandez is good at all at second, poor range and a lousy DP turn. He is maybe a couple of ticks below JBJ in center (in other words, very damn good)
With a great defensive shortstop, he would be adequate at second, but we don't have a great defensive shortstop. I really don't think they will take Hernandez out of center full time. At least I hope not.
In 2019 and 2020 he was a combined +21 DRS in 810 innings at 2nd, 2nd in all of baseball at that time, 1 run behind a guy who played almost twice as many innings as he did.
 

BravesField

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Why do you think Bloom wants to take a team that went to the ALCS last season and blow it up? I mean, beyond your having a feeling.
Sorry if I wasn't too clear. I was only speculating that IF the sox struggle early and it appears that the chance of making the playoffs are low, Bloom will have a lot of pieces to deal.
 

patinorange

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In 2019 and 2020 he was a combined +21 DRS in 810 innings at 2nd, 2nd in all of baseball at that time, 1 run behind a guy who played almost twice as many innings as he did.
I can only judge what I saw in Boston in 2021. Didn't look great to me. Pure observation. I'm sure he's adequate at second, but elite in center.
 

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chawson

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scottyno

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You're not implying playing Verdugo in right field would improve that? Plus JDM/KS in left?
Verdugo to right and signing someone average to play left would improve it, Verdugo is perfectly fine as long as he isn't in center. Renfroe really wasn't that great last year. If the plan is either JDM or Schwarber in left then the defense likely gets much worse.

I can only judge what I saw in Boston in 2021. Didn't look great to me. Pure observation. I'm sure he's adequate at second, but elite in center.
Likely because last year he was primarily a center fielder. There isn't much reason to think if they told him you're going to play 2b take all your practice reps there that he wouldn't match his 2019 and 2020 performance.
 

Trlicek's Whip

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If Schwarber and JDM both remain on the roster we're still in the position of sacrificing defense to keep both bats in the lineup. A full spring training of Schwarber learning to play 1B would be helpful.
The most recent comp where this worked out for the Sox was David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez; two big bats that were better off not playing defense, but did anyway. The difference with the current club is that their defense at other positions is suboptimal. Alex Verdugo isn't Trot Nixon or JD Drew. Devers isn't Lowell or Youkilis or most of Bill Mueller's Sox career.

On the 2021 Sox JDM and Schwarber weren't downgraded defense outliers, they're what passed for Sox defense in 2021.

Ortiz was sneaky better at 1B than one would remember. Ortiz also had about 2100 more career innings at 1B than Schwarber. If Schwarber can get to "do no harm" replacement level defense past his first 75 innings at the position (learning it on the fly) it would be an optimistic defensive upgrade. With the uncertainty of the lockout I hope he's scooping grounders and picking low throws somewhere to start learning.
 

joe dokes

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Ortiz was sneaky better at 1B than one would remember. Ortiz also had about 2100 more career innings at 1B than Schwarber. If Schwarber can get to "do no harm" replacement level defense past his first 75 innings at the position (learning it on the fly) it would be an optimistic defensive upgrade. With the uncertainty of the lockout I hope he's scooping grounders and picking low throws somewhere to start learning.
I'd like to think that Schwarber realized last year that an ability to play passable defense at 1B is worth millions. Some players act on that stuff, some dont.
 

chawson

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The most recent comp where this worked out for the Sox was David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez; two big bats that were better off not playing defense, but did anyway. The difference with the current club is that their defense at other positions is suboptimal. Alex Verdugo isn't Trot Nixon or JD Drew. Devers isn't Lowell or Youkilis or most of Bill Mueller's Sox career.

On the 2021 Sox JDM and Schwarber weren't downgraded defense outliers, they're what passed for Sox defense in 2021.

Ortiz was sneaky better at 1B than one would remember. Ortiz also had about 2100 more career innings at 1B than Schwarber. If Schwarber can get to "do no harm" replacement level defense past his first 75 innings at the position (learning it on the fly) it would be an optimistic defensive upgrade. With the uncertainty of the lockout I hope he's scooping grounders and picking low throws somewhere to start learning.
These are good points. I also found Papi’s weird, flashy flair at first base to be hilariously endearing whenever he’d show it off.

I wonder if the first base transition is easier for guys who used to be catchers than, say, outfielders. Intuitively I’d say it is, which could inspire more confidence in our FO that Schwarbs could pull it off.
 

YTF

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The most recent comp where this worked out for the Sox was David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez; two big bats that were better off not playing defense, but did anyway. The difference with the current club is that their defense at other positions is suboptimal. Alex Verdugo isn't Trot Nixon or JD Drew. Devers isn't Lowell or Youkilis or most of Bill Mueller's Sox career.

On the 2021 Sox JDM and Schwarber weren't downgraded defense outliers, they're what passed for Sox defense in 2021.

Ortiz was sneaky better at 1B than one would remember. Ortiz also had about 2100 more career innings at 1B than Schwarber. If Schwarber can get to "do no harm" replacement level defense past his first 75 innings at the position (learning it on the fly) it would be an optimistic defensive upgrade. With the uncertainty of the lockout I hope he's scooping grounders and picking low throws somewhere to start learning.
If the Sox wind up with JDM and Schwarber on the roster for the 2022 season it won't be the worst thing in the world as it's likely just for one season, but I prefer this doesn't happen as we've seen that this limits the defense, especially if one has to play LF to get both bats in the lineup. Ideally if Schwarber could make the transition to being at least an average defender at 1B we don't have to worry about either in the OF on a regular basis. With the Sox now unable to talk to Schwarber until the lockout is resolved and the possibility of a shortened spring training, I'm concerned about him getting in a solid off season of working out at the position.
 

tims4wins

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The most recent comp where this worked out for the Sox was David Ortiz and Manny Ramirez; two big bats that were better off not playing defense, but did anyway. The difference with the current club is that their defense at other positions is suboptimal. Alex Verdugo isn't Trot Nixon or JD Drew. Devers isn't Lowell or Youkilis or most of Bill Mueller's Sox career.

On the 2021 Sox JDM and Schwarber weren't downgraded defense outliers, they're what passed for Sox defense in 2021.

Ortiz was sneaky better at 1B than one would remember. Ortiz also had about 2100 more career innings at 1B than Schwarber. If Schwarber can get to "do no harm" replacement level defense past his first 75 innings at the position (learning it on the fly) it would be an optimistic defensive upgrade. With the uncertainty of the lockout I hope he's scooping grounders and picking low throws somewhere to start learning.
I mean, kind of. Ortiz played 45 games at 1B in 2003 and 34 in 2004, then never more than 10 in a season.
 

Bosoxian

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Hopefully JBJ isn’t considered a LH bat and reduces the effort to get Schwarber. Does trading Renfroe create a need for another RH power bat?
 
Hopefully JBJ isn’t considered a LH bat and reduces the effort to get Schwarber. Does trading Renfroe create a need for another RH power bat?
Bloom seemed to think it did:

"...Obviously, swapping Hunter for Jackie does changed the handedness of our group a little bit. So, maybe the dial moves a little more toward a right-handed bat, where before it might have been more toward a left-handed bat. But there’s different ways it can come together with the versatility and flexibility that we have, so we’re going to keep looking to supplement."
That's a bit more optimistic than I am on Bradley's ability to rebound. I think he has to be considered a defense-first fourth outfielder until he shows otherwise. But regardless, Hernandez is the only right-handed outfielder they have (unless you count JD), and he might be playing more second base with Bradley in the fold. So maybe Bloom starts to pivot from Schwarber (whom I'd prefer to bring back) to someone like Bryant.
 

chrisfont9

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That sucked, as I recall. Scott was finished after one season. Cecil Cooper, on the other hand, gave the Brewers several great years.
As a kid that was my first inkling that maybe the Red Sox don't know what they're doing, an education that was completed when Fisk left. Cooper not only excelled in Milwaukee but IIRC his OPS against the Sox was 4.000.

Getting back on topic, the Sox have to be considering Kiké for RF, no? He's actually played there for parts of 75 games, with fairly neutral stats and a slightly positive UZR.
 
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Just a bit outside

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I like the idea of selling high on Renfroe. JBJ should be a platoon or 4th outfielder with KH staying in centerfield. If they sign Schwarber then Verdugo moves to right and JBJ plays mostly as a defensive replacement in right with Verdugo moving to left. If not Schwarber they need to sign a right-handed hitting outfielder to play right and JBJ gets some platoon at bats depending on the sign. This plan still leaves Arroyo as second but maybe JBJ platoons some with him if KH is willing to bounce between center and second.
 

YTF

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Bloom seemed to think it did:



That's a bit more optimistic than I am on Bradley's ability to rebound. I think he has to be considered a defense-first fourth outfielder until he shows otherwise. But regardless, Hernandez is the only right-handed outfielder they have (unless you count JD), and he might be playing more second base with Bradley in the fold. So maybe Bloom starts to pivot from Schwarber (whom I'd prefer to bring back) to someone like Bryant.
I get wanting a certain percentage of hitters from either side of the plate, but does the highlighted part of the quote really matter? Especially IF JBJ winds up as a 4th OF?
 

chawson

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As far as platoon outfielders who play RF, maybe this is the year the Sox pull off the Wil Myers trade.

Campusano could still be the prize there. Chris Paddack seems like a Pivetta-type guy we could fix, and it seems he was just pushed out of their rotation by the Nick Martinez signing. There’s also Kim, who had a rough adjustment year at the plate but is a superb defensive INF. Myers could play right in a platoon with JBJ, or maybe step in at 1B depending on what we do with Schwarber, JDM and Dalbec.

I wonder what they’d want for some combination of Campusano, Paddack or Gore on the plus side and Myers or Kim on the negative side. Taking on both of the latter is about $22m in 2022 AAV, unless it’s someone like JDM going the other way. Would be complicated but Preller and Bloom are good at complex deals.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I get wanting a certain percentage of hitters from either side of the plate, but does the highlighted part of the quote really matter? Especially IF JBJ winds up as a 4th OF?
Ideally you’d want a RH bat who would take some at bats against tough lefties from Verdugo. It’s why Bradley is an odd fit as a backup (in addition to being a terrible PH, historically). It’s hard to see when and where he’s get at bats. Of course, that all depends who the third OF is. If it’s a lousy defender who can’t hit righties, maybe, but those players don’t really exist and wouldn’t be starting.
 
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Farty Barrett

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As far as platoon outfielders who play RF, maybe this is the year the Sox pull off the Wil Myers trade.

Campusano could still be the prize there. Chris Paddack seems like a Pivetta-type guy we could fix, and it seems he was just pushed out of their rotation by the Nick Martinez signing. There’s also Kim, who had a rough adjustment year at the plate but is a superb defensive INF. Myers could play right in a platoon with JBJ, or maybe step in at 1B depending on what we do with Schwarber, JDM and Dalbec.

I wonder what they’d want for some combination of Campusano, Paddack or Gore on the plus side and Myers or Kim on the negative side. Taking on both of the latter is about $22m in 2022 AAV, unless it’s someone like JDM going the other way. Would be complicated but Preller and Bloom are good at complex deals.
I would imagine the Padres would gut our system for these players. Campusano struggled but is still their future catcher. Paddock is under control until 2025 and provides depth they would want replaced in a trade. And Gore was recently the top pitching prospect in the game, who by most accounts is still highly regarded. How much would you want for your future? How would you justify paying Tatis 300 million then trade away three of your best cost controlled assets? Everything we have to offer would be further away than Campusano, Paddock and Gore.

Myers has a year and an option. He’s good but Renfroe was better last year and cost more than 10 million less. I think Bloom can do better
 

Ford Frick's Asterisk

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The Myers contract has been bad for a couple of years, but despite all the rumors, the Padres never got desperate enough to package any prospects with him just to get out from under the obligation... and I imagine that ship has sailed. If they've weathered it this long, I don't see why they'd give away much future talent just to be rid of a 1 year $23.5M commitment now.
 

allmanbro

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Hosmer is probably the bad contract they really want to dump, but it's so bad the Sox might not think it's worth it. But if they do, they could probably get a ton of value back if the core of the deal were Dalbec for Hosmer.
 

chawson

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The Myers contract has been bad for a couple of years, but despite all the rumors, the Padres never got desperate enough to package any prospects with him just to get out from under the obligation... and I imagine that ship has sailed. If they've weathered it this long, I don't see why they'd give away much future talent just to be rid of a 1 year $23.5M commitment now.
That probably depends on how the CBA shakes out. The Padres are at $193 million in payroll right now (not sure if that includes the Nick Martinez deal, which technically didn’t go through). That could be over the new luxury tax, if there is one. They also have the second-most committed money in MLB in 2023 behind the Mets. All that and Preller’s a pretty active GM.
 

Daniel_Son

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Hosmer is probably the bad contract they really want to dump, but it's so bad the Sox might not think it's worth it. But if they do, they could probably get a ton of value back if the core of the deal were Dalbec for Hosmer.
According to Spotrac, he's being paid $20 mil for 2022, then $13 mil/year for the next 3 years. Not 100% sure how this would affect the luxury tax, but $13/year isn't terrible for what he brings to the table. He's not bad defensively, gets on base at a fairly decent clip, and has been roughly league-average (102 OPS+ in SD) at the plate.

But you're right - the return would need to be pretty substantial for me to feel good about that trade.
 

scottyno

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Hosmer is probably the bad contract they really want to dump, but it's so bad the Sox might not think it's worth it. But if they do, they could probably get a ton of value back if the core of the deal were Dalbec for Hosmer.
If the new CBA includes a salary floor his contract potentially becomes pretty movable to a cheap team.

He's due 20m this year and then has an opt out (which I doubt he takes) and then 13 13 and 13, but he'll count for 18 a year against the CBT so it's a good way for a cheap team to save money.

Terrible fit for the Sox though since he blocks 1st base.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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According to Spotrac, he's being paid $20 mil for 2022, then $13 mil/year for the next 3 years. Not 100% sure how this would affect the luxury tax, but $13/year isn't terrible for what he brings to the table. He's not bad defensively, gets on base at a fairly decent clip, and has been roughly league-average (102 OPS+ in SD) at the plate.

But you're right - the return would need to be pretty substantial for me to feel good about that trade.
Hosmer's luxury tax hit is $18M a year. Unless Casas is going in the deal as well, acquiring the ass-end of Hosmer's contract seems counter productive.
 

allmanbro

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If the new CBA includes a salary floor his contract potentially becomes pretty movable to a cheap team.

He's due 20m this year and then has an opt out (which I doubt he takes) and then 13 13 and 13, but he'll count for 18 a year against the CBT so it's a good way for a cheap team to save money.

Terrible fit for the Sox though since he blocks 1st base.
Ya, I think the hope would be that Hosmer has a good year in Bos, and then try to flip/dump him when Casas is ready. His spray charts show lots of fb to left, so maybe he could benefit from the monster. And his salary could be worth it (even if they are paying him to play for another team) if they can fill 2-3 other roster spots, and/or get top prospects. It would have to be a real haul coming back to the Sox. The chance that trade happens is basically 0, but I also think it's one of very few imaginable ways they could get a cost-controlled #2-3 starter, or pieces valuable enough to flip for one.
 

Jack Rabbit Slim

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Do people really expect another SP acquisition? Even if we assume Whitlock is staying as a short reliever, that still leaves Sale, Eovaldi, Hill, Pivetta, Houck and Wacha with Paxton added July/August. I suppose they could put Houck in AAA and Wacha as long man (and worry about a spot for Paxton when the time comes) but it feels to me like the rotation is done.
 

YTF

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Do people really expect another SP acquisition? Even if we assume Whitlock is staying as a short reliever, that still leaves Sale, Eovaldi, Hill, Pivetta, Houck and Wacha with Paxton added July/August. I suppose they could put Houck in AAA and Wacha as long man (and worry about a spot for Paxton when the time comes) but it feels to me like the rotation is done.
It feels to me like there is something in place in case another deal can't be made which IMO feels better that having not acquired anyone at this point.
 

GB5

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Fir those who suggested that Schwarber should be learning 1st base because it would be worth millions to his value…He is likely going to get 100 million plus dollars before anyone sees him near a 1st basemans glove.