I Believe in Time Lord...Why Can't You?

Euclis20

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 3, 2004
8,014
Imaginationland
He gets more tipped balls and disrupted handles on little guys than I've ever seen from a center. His hands really are impressive.
Other than Hakeem (10th all-time in steals, the only center in the top 60), I can't think of anyone else who compares.

Then again, for most of NBA history Rob would've played power forward, and there are a few of those high up on the all time list (most notably Garnett).
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Other than Hakeem (10th all-time in steals, the only center in the top 60), I can't think of anyone else who compares.

Then again, for most of NBA history Rob would've played power forward, and there are a few of those high up on the all time list (most notably Garnett).
He's been named as a possible target. Andre Drummond. Drummond even has an ok passing game, though I prefer TL's.


David Robinson got a lot of steals for awhile too but most bigs see a sharp decline in steals as they get older.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
Ben Wallace was pretty disruptive as an undersized center similar to TL though TL is in a different league on blocks and offense.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Ben Wallace was pretty disruptive as an undersized center similar to TL though TL is in a different league on blocks and offense.
Worth noting that, until they change the rules of basketball to disallow hand usage and only allow heading the ball, TL is not undersized in any meaningful way.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
Fair; he’s got few limitations as a center and it’s not exactly uncommon. Back when Wallace was a center it was pretty rare for a C to be 6’8” as Wallace probably was. Wallace also had few limitations due to his size.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,152
San Francisco
Worth noting that, until they change the rules of basketball to disallow hand usage and only allow heading the ball, TL is not undersized in any meaningful way.
Do you know any NBA resources that have standing reach readily available? I just checked the usual suspects and couldn't find anything.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
Ben Wallace was pretty disruptive as an undersized center similar to TL though TL is in a different league on blocks and offense.
Wait. We are going to just automatically raise our guy, who has started two games above a 4 time defensive player of the year. A guy who was top ten in mvp voting twice? A guy who at his peak played 35-40 minutes a game?
 

Smokey Joe

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 9, 2001
1,155
Wait. We are going to just automatically raise our guy, who has started two games above a 4 time defensive player of the year. A guy who was top ten in mvp voting twice? A guy who at his peak played 35-40 minutes a game?
This is showing restraint. No one has compared him to Bill Russell...yet.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Do you know any NBA resources that have standing reach readily available? I just checked the usual suspects and couldn't find anything.
Usually the best results are from the combine. If you google “Player X standing reach”, you generally get combine results.

One day, in lovegtm-topia, all players will be listed by standing reach+wingspan.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,111
Santa Monica
Rob has come a long way in less than 40 games.

At the start of the season, he wasn't even discussed in the same sentence with present-day luminaries Tristan Thompson and Daniel Theis

Heck it was only a few weeks back when Rob was hurting the stellar play of Semi Ojeleye & Jeff Teague o_O

Can we admit that the team has been better with him off the court than on? -5.2 on/+2.0 off? And that's with Pritchard, Ojeleye, and Teague, fellow bench mobbers, all having a positive +/-. Or is that verbotten heresy?
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
This is showing restraint. No one has compared him to Bill Russell...yet.
Well most of us didn't see Bill play, so by that definition cleary he was terrible.

resolution of available video x whether I was there x win shares x (how well guy played in last game x 10 to the 6th power) = player value.
 

slamminsammya

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2006
9,152
San Francisco
Usually the best results are from the combine. If you google “Player X standing reach”, you generally get combine results.

One day, in lovegtm-topia, all players will be listed by standing reach+wingspan.
Anyone who went to the Combine is on here for official numbers:
https://www.nba.com/stats/draft/combine-anthro/

Just pick the draft year
Yea, see those but I was hoping they had these statistics joined with current player pages so I could look by team etc.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
Wait. We are going to just automatically raise our guy, who has started two games above a 4 time defensive player of the year. A guy who was top ten in mvp voting twice? A guy who at his peak played 35-40 minutes a game?
I did no such thing. He's objectively a better offensive player. He's objectively better at collecting blocks. Everyone here should be able to understand that there's more to basketball than offensive ability and a blocks counting statistic.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Yea, see those but I was hoping they had these statistics joined with current player pages so I could look by team etc.
Yeah it’s super non-standardized. I usually end up just looking at post-combine articles/summaries for each year.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
Jerry Krause, (who we all know from netflix was a much worse executive than the guys who drafted Kwame Brown #1, and signed Joquim Noah to a 72 Million deal,) was maybe the first guy to measure reach and ignore height when evaluating players. Obviously he would have passed on short armed Adam Morrison. Idiot.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
I did no such thing. He's objectively a better offensive player. He's objectively better at collecting blocks. Everyone here should be able to understand that there's more to basketball than offensive ability and a blocks counting statistic.
Not a single concern with sample size in your evaluation?
What is your "objective better offensive player" based upon?
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
It's based on Wallace being an objectively poor offensive player who couldn't shoot, score, make a free throw, pass, or really do any thing productive offensively at all save for rebound, where TL is no slouch.

I brought up Wallace as a player who was a center that got a lot of steals and had great hands. If we're looking for people who were like TL he's a lot better of a comparison than David Robinson or Hakeem. I brought up Wallace not because I was browsing some list of steals by a center, but because I remember watching him play and how disruptive he was for a guy who was well under 7ft.

Time Lord isn't even close to winning NBA DPOY once nevermind 4x. Nobody thinks he is.
 
Last edited:

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Jerry Krause, (who we all know from netflix was a much worse executive than the guys who drafted Kwame Brown #1, and signed Joquim Noah to a 72 Million deal,) was maybe the first guy to measure reach and ignore height when evaluating players. Obviously he would have passed on short armed Adam Morrison. Idiot.
My takeaway from The Last Dance was “holy shit, Jerry Krause was a freaking good GM”
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
The fact Wallace sucked on offense?
Not sure you guys get "fact" or "objective". Had Wallace existed in this time where all he would have to do is dunk lobs, I expect his fg% etc would be higher. The game has evolved to recognize the value of shot blockers, and use their skills. We have a game today where 4 of the players are better shooters than the past, and one player , TL is an example, have almost no moves beyond dunking lobs, but need very little more. Wehn Ainge drafted him some people worried that almost all of his college hoops were dunks. But, that is what the game is now. I am not so confident, and perhaps not as good at evaluation as you are, to assume TL would certainly be worlds better doing what forwards did in Wallace's time, or that Wallace, another freak of nature athlete, would be unable to do what TL does.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Not sure you guys get "fact" or "objective". Had Wallace existed in this time where all he would have to do is dunk lobs, I expect his fg% etc would be higher. The game has evolved to recognize the value of shot blockers, and use their skills. We have a game today where 4 of the players are better shooters than the past, and one player , TL is an example, have almost no moves beyond dunking lobs, but need very little more. Wehn Ainge drafted him some people worried that almost all of his college hoops were dunks. But, that is what the game is now. I am not so confident, and perhaps not as good at evaluation as you are, to assume TL would certainly be worlds better doing what forwards did in Wallace's time, or that Wallace, another freak of nature athlete, would be unable to do what TL does.
TL can also pass.

Saying someone is better than Ben Wallace on offense is not really a hot take.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I think there's more of an argument that TL isn't a better shot blocker than Ben Wallace and that he benefits from only averaging 13.6 minutes played for the course of his career. Call me when TL registers 278 blocks in a season and maintains his 9.9% Block rate for 25-30 minutes a game.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Man Mr. Kardi B is better writer than Shakespeare, you never give an inch.
If you want to argue with him using the word objective, that's fine. I didn't use that word though. Why would I give an inch when I think TL is a better offensive player than Ben Wallace? Ben Wallace was a very bad offensive player. I don't think TL is particularly good on O, but he's better than Ben Wallace. If you think otherwise, that's great. I disagree 100%.

edit: And you are such a great writer you still can't get Jaylen Brown's name right after 5 years.
 

amarshal2

Member
SoSH Member
Oct 25, 2005
4,913
I take back the use of the word "objective" and replace it with the word "obvious." We good now?

If time lord averages fewer blocks than he does now I bet it'll have less to do with sustaining it over more minutes and more to do with him becoming a smarter defensive player who doesn't sell out for blocks. Wallace probably could have maxed his blocks toa similar rate as TL if that was his prerogative.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,651
where I was last at
My 2 scents on TL. As he gets more playing with a more set rotation of starters, versus being the 2nd or 3rd option playing with less skilled 2nd teamers he will get "smarter" on D and will have to gamble less to cover for other's getting beat.

If he could develop a decent 12' shot that might be enough. Or get McHale to teach him the up and under.

Give him time.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
My 2 scents on TL. As he gets more playing with a more set rotation of starters, versus being the 2nd or 3rd option playing with less skilled 2nd teamers he will get "smarter" on D and will have to gamble less to cover for other's getting beat.

If he could develop a decent 12' shot that might be enough. Or get McHale to teach him the up and under.

Give him time.
As @reggiecleveland noted, you don't really need a post game or jumper as an athletic big. He's already showing more finishing moves near the hoop, so that's probably a higher priority. Combine that with his passing ability, and he could become intriguing on the short roll eventually.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
If you want to argue with him using the word objective, that's fine. I didn't use that word though. Why would I give an inch when I think TL is a better offensive player than Ben Wallace? Ben Wallace was a very bad offensive player. I don't think TL is particularly good on O, but he's better than Ben Wallace. If you think otherwise, that's great. I disagree 100%.

edit: And you are such a great writer you still can't get Jaylen Brown's name right after 5 years.
Lighten up Francis

[B]amarshal2[/B] Ben Wallace is a good comp as a ceiling. Not questioning that at all. I am just loathe to get hopes too high. My doubt comes from the times I was wrong, and disappointed.
I remember counting the rings Len Bias would win, or wondering if Jim Rice 756 hr would be the right field or left, or if Ron Mercer would be closer to Pippen or Jordan. I use Mercer and RIce, as guys who ended up great/good players, but still didn't measure up to a lot of the hype. I really like TL, and he may be the single greatest vertical athlete in NBA ever, so he could be Ben Wallace. But, Brad may know just as much about hoops as us, and he hasn't played him 30 minutes a game. So I temper my hopes.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
Lighten up Francis

[B]amarshal2[/B] Ben Wallace is a good comp as a ceiling. Not questioning that at all. I am just loathe to get hopes too high. My doubt comes from the times I was wrong, and disappointed.
I remember counting the rings Len Bias would win, or wondering if Jim Rice 756 hr would be the right field or left, or if Ron Mercer would be closer to Pippen or Jordan. I use Mercer and RIce, as guys who ended up great/good players, but still didn't measure up to a lot of the hype. I really like TL, and he may be the single greatest vertical athlete in NBA ever, so he could be Ben Wallace. But, Brad may know just as much about hoops as us, and he hasn't played him 30 minutes a game. So I temper my hopes.

All he said is they are both disruptive. I don't think anyone here has TL becoming a better overall player than Ben Wallace or even all that particularly close to it.
 

bankshot1

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 12, 2003
24,651
where I was last at
As @reggiecleveland noted, you don't really need a post game or jumper as an athletic big. He's already showing more finishing moves near the hoop, so that's probably a higher priority. Combine that with his passing ability, and he could become intriguing on the short roll eventually.
He's a pretty decent rebounder and if he snags a few O-boards and can get a guy up in the air with the UnU, may get fouled, it wouldn't hurt. I'f he's going to get minutes with the starters I'd like to see him develop more of an offensive repetoire than just rely on an ally oop. No rush but maybe something for him to work on during the offseason
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,457
TL is not the defensive player Ben Wallace was. Ben was an elite positional defender along with his shot blocking. One amazing thing to do is look at his on/off numbers for every year after his rookie year... a bad year was his team only being 3-4% better on D with him on the floor, with multiple years of 10%+ lower opponent scoring.... that's crazy.

Also... shot blocking is wildly overrated, plenty of big time shot blockers are bad defenders.

What is most intriguing to me in projecting TL's defense is his steal rates. Steals aren't the be all end all either, but they are more important than blocks (in part because they are a 0 point possession),

On the other hand... TL is a better offensive player than Ben Wallace.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
Usually the best results are from the combine. If you google “Player X standing reach”, you generally get combine results.

One day, in lovegtm-topia, all players will be listed by standing reach+wingspan.
Hear hear. It only took like 40 years to get baseball guys to start using OBP, but now we can get LD% on low A guys and spin rates and exit velocities and shit like that. Even if the dinosaurs still talk about RBI.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
I will put in my "Old guy" what is wrong with the game take. TL could easily shoot fts on about a third of his dunks. If they started calling these fouls there would be more reward to throw him the ball, and more incentive to not bump the roller in the moment before he gets the ball. Then having guy like TL gets the other teams forwards in foul trouble, and scores more points to boot.Maybe there are 2-3 fewer threes attempted each game.
 

Cesar Crespo

79
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
21,588
I will put in my "Old guy" what is wrong with the game take. TL could easily shoot fts on about a third of his dunks. If they started calling these fouls there would be more reward to throw him the ball, and more incentive to not bump the roller in the moment before he gets the ball. Then having guy like TL gets the other teams forwards in foul trouble, and scores more points to boot.Maybe there are 2-3 fewer threes attempted each game.
It may help balance the game but I'm not sure more pauses in play and more FT attempts are going to make the game any better to watch. Calling all fouls fouls would slow the game down to a crawl.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,482
But, Brad may know just as much about hoops as us, and he hasn't played him 30 minutes a game. So I temper my hopes.
Well, in fairness, Brad's system asks a ton from his big guys in terms of having to run so not playing 30 minutes consistently may be by design.

And for some numbers on this from NBA.com (https://www.nba.com/stats/players/speed-distance/?sort=DIST_MILES&dir=1&Season=2020-21&SeasonType=Regular Season&Height=GT 6-7&PerMode=Totals):
  • For guys over 6'7", Sabonis has run the most miles - 119.10 in 1589 minutes. That comes out to 2.698 miles per 36 minutes.
  • JT has run the most minutes on the Cs of players over 6'7". He's run 101.30 miles in 1421 minutes. That 2.566 miles per 36 minutes.
  • TL has 50.30 miles in 689 minutes. That's 2.628 per 36 minutes.
  • By comparison, The Is ran 76 miles in 1027 minutes. That's 2.664 miles per 36 minutes.
(Note: if my math is wrong, I'm sure someone will correct me.)

At any rate, all of the sprinting from the baseline to set up the high PnR and then sprinting back to the basket as a roller and playing PnRs on defense but getting back to the rim is a lot of running. Not surprised that Brad doesn't play his big men more. Even Al Horford only averaged 32.3, 31.6, and 29.0 mpg when he was in BOS.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
Then they aren't even trying on defense.

edit: Without any fouls at all (whether they were called or not) , I'd guess most games would look like the all star game.
Well I didn’t mean stop fouling altogether. But if the refs called things tighter they’d likely learn to foul less, right? So the game might get bogged down at first but they’d adjust and the game would flow just fine I think.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
11,996
Well I didn’t mean stop fouling altogether. But if the refs called things tighter they’d likely learn to foul less, right? So the game might get bogged down at first but they’d adjust and the game would flow just fine I think.
Yeah, this is what happened with the freedom of movement rules circa 2006. It was ugly and choppy at first, and then guys adjusted.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
It may help balance the game but I'm not sure more pauses in play and more FT attempts are going to make the game any better to watch. Calling all fouls fouls would slow the game down to a crawl.
I agree that will be the balancing act, but this would be a minor change.

That is the way to change the game though. When they stopped handchecking (and ended Knick hopes of getting back to the finals) there were a ton of fouls, for a while. When they outlawed goaltending the whistle went lots. When NFL changed rules on hitting QBs late there were more flags, and hundreds of column inches about how Sammy Baugh didn't need that rule, but teams adjusted. A subtle change to fouls in the paint would hardly be that level of disruption. The difference between the Wizards and the Suns is almost 9fts a game, I doubt a few more FTS would be a noticeable change. I guarantee at half time the officials discuss whether they called too many or too few fouls most games. Coaches yell at the refs because it works. to a degree, by changing the refs focus. We have all been at games where the coah yells about three in the key, or some type of fouls and the ref notices it and calls it. We are where we are because the NBA consciously decided to call more offensive fouls on Shaq as he carved out position and fewer illegal defense calls as guys who came early to double him. They could choose to call Harden for ten violations agame and justify it by the rule book, but they choose not to. They spend millions in deciding what to call and what not to call.

A ref I know said as part of a FIBA/NBA exchange he sat in with NBA refs as they watched a film of every foul called on Daryl Dawkins in an entire season. They were sure he was being punished for his ungodly strength, but what were the ramifications to the league? How do you guard a guy that big if he is allowed to move you? They came away deciding they should probably put DD on the line a bit more, maybe once a game more, and to watch guys flopping when DD never touched them. But, they said the big question, should be be allowed to move guys three four feet off their spot, when most other posts would move guys a foot at most? They decided no. There was a wink-wink discussion that the final call was "above the paygrade" of the refs. I know "how to ref Shaq" was multi-million dollar study for most of his career.
 

DannyDarwinism

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 7, 2007
4,883
TL is not the defensive player Ben Wallace was. Ben was an elite positional defender along with his shot blocking. One amazing thing to do is look at his on/off numbers for every year after his rookie year... a bad year was his team only being 3-4% better on D with him on the floor, with multiple years of 10%+ lower opponent scoring.... that's crazy.
Wow, that is crazy. I think most here know that B-Ref's D-rating isn't particularly useful unless you're looking at guys on the same team, but it got me curious: perhaps it shouldn't be surprising given the on/off numbers above, but Wallace absolutely crushed the rest of those Pistons teams in Drtg, pretty consistently getting about 10 points lower than the rest of the starters every year he was there. Once Sheed got there, he was the only significant minutes guy who came within 5 of Ben (94 to 99, and 95-100). For comparison, I took a look at KG's prime with Minny, and saw a pretty similar pattern, except Eddie Griffin came pretty close a couple of years. KG also generally led the Celtics major minutes guys, but the lead was less pronounced. FWIW, this year, Rob's Drtg = 103, with Theis and Tatum next at 112.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,957
Saskatoon Canada
Wallace is the defensive John Stockton in that he made us recognize a past Celtic star. I mean for years we all thought about Cousy, "come on 6'1 white guy dominating? Never happen." Wallace made people think, yeah maybe Russell, a sub 7 foot shot blocker could dominate legit NBA games, especially when he was considered an superior passer. I remember Tommy talking about Ben in an "I told you so" manner one game and pointing out whenever Wallace switched off guarded three different guys and got the D board, then took a breather that Russell would also have been first guy down the floor. Mike said "Tommy if Russell was first guy down the floor every play Cousy never would have passed to you!"
 

ehaz

Member
SoSH Member
Sep 30, 2007
4,948

128

Member
SoSH Member
May 4, 2019
10,016
One of the many appealing features of Time Lord's game is the way, when he grabs an offensive rebound and doesn't have a clear path to a basket, he immediately looks to see who's open on the perimeter and then fires the ball back out. Tristan Thompson needs some lessons in that.
 

Koufax

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
5,936
Another of his charms is his ability to catch a bad pass in an awkward position and do something wonderful with it. He's quite the athlete. Danny deserves kudos for that draft pick.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,482
Love watching TL on offense but he really helps the Cs on the defensive end. I bet in the playoffs, Brad subs Fournier for KW and that group - Marcus, Jays, EF, and TL - should be really really good defensively.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,475
Melrose, MA
One of the many appealing features of Time Lord's game is the way, when he grabs an offensive rebound and doesn't have a clear path to a basket, he immediately looks to see who's open on the perimeter and then fires the ball back out. Tristan Thompson needs some lessons in that.
Even more generally, he just gets the ball out quickly wherever he is. Defensive rebound, loose ball, steal, whatever, he gets the ball and if there's not a play there for him he moves it quickly.