If there's a WC game and the Sox can line up who they want, who should start?

Who should start the do or die game, if they get there?


  • Total voters
    250
  • Poll closed .

Rasputin

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We're in complete agreement that our best pitcher should start. We disagree about who that is right now. What have you seen from Sale this year that makes you think that? Sale would have been the obvious choice in 2018 and 2019 and hopefully will be in 2022 and afterwards. But I don't see how anyone could take his body of the work this year, compare it to Eovaldi's, and conclude that Sale is clearly the better pitcher today.
This year consists of six games. I don't know how you can make a decision based on six games.
 

54thMA

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I'd go with Bill Lee, but the manager will go with Bobby Sprowl because "that kid has ice water in his veins."
 

oumbi

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Sale's 6 outings so far this season:

August 14 - 5 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 0 BB, 8 K
August 20 - 5 IP, 5 H, 0 ER, 1 BB, 8 K
August 26 - 5.1 IP, 2H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 8 K
September 1 - 6 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 3 K
September 6 - 3.2 IP, 10 H, 1 ER, 1 BB, 6 K
September - 5 IP, 2 H, 1 ER, 0 BB, 1 K

This is not bad.
 

Hank Scorpio

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If we beat the Mets tomorrow, sweep Baltimore, and can manage 2 of 3 versus the Yankees and Washington...

...then all we need is for the Rays to finish 2-8 to have a tie in the AL East.
 

Heating up in the bullpen

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If we beat the Mets tomorrow, sweep Baltimore, and can manage 2 of 3 versus the Yankees and Washington...

...then all we need is for the Rays to finish 2-8 to have a tie in the AL East.
As long as the Jays eliminate the Yankees, I'd be ok pulling for them (Yanks) to sweep the Rays to end the season and give the Sox a shot at the division.
 

BaseballJones

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Last six starts for each guy:

Sale: 30.0 ip (5.0/g), 2.40 era, 4.26 fip, 1.23 whip, 9.3 k/9
Eovaldi: 35.2 ip (6.0/g), 2.27 era, 2.06 fip, 1.04 whip, 12.1 k/9
 

Al Zarilla

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Galehouse over Parnell was the worst Baseball move ever.
Worse than anything Zimmer or Little ever did.

An all-Boston World Series would have been awesome.
F*** Joe McCarthy. Embedded Yankee.
Parnell didn't have a hangnail or the flu or something? More likely, McCarthy might have reacted to the fact that the Indians lineup was very strong with right handed hitters: hall of famers Joe Gordon and Lou Boudreau, plus Ken Keltner, who was about as good a hitter that year as the HOFers. Larry Doby, HOF, did hit left. The fact that he brought in Ellis Kinder, RHP, instead of Parnell, LHP, to replace Galehouse, might solidify that he was afraid of the monster getting cleared or dented by the strong RHH lineup against a lefty, or that Parnell wasn't right.
 

Deweys New Stance

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Parnell didn't have a hangnail or the flu or something? More likely, McCarthy might have reacted to the fact that the Indians lineup was very strong with right handed hitters: hall of famers Joe Gordon and Lou Boudreau, plus Ken Keltner, who was about as good a hitter that year as the HOFers. Larry Doby, HOF, did hit left. The fact that he brought in Ellis Kinder, RHP, instead of Parnell, LHP, to replace Galehouse, might solidify that he was afraid of the monster getting cleared or dented by the strong RHH lineup against a lefty, or that Parnell wasn't right.
The reason most often cited is that Parnell was on only three days rest. There really was not much other rationale: Parnell was healthy, and had a 2.21 ERA and a 1.25 whip in 114 innings at Fenway that season. He had pitched 6 times against the Indians that season, for a 3.32 ERA and 1.61 whip across 38 innings, including three complete games. And while that whip is high, most of the damage was done in one July game in Cleveland where he couldn't get out of the first inning (and ironically Galehouse relieved him and pitched well for the rest of the game). Parnell pitched three times against the Tribe in Fenway that season, with complete game victories in two of those starts and only two earned runs in 8 innings in his other start. He had started six times on three days rest that season for a 3.92 era and 1.41 whip across 39 innings. So while he had been less effective on 3 days rest, there were no glaring red flags indicating that he shouldn't have started that game instead of Galehouse.

A SABR article written by Glenn Stout about Galehouse contains this intriguing passage:

One day earlier, after the Red Sox beat the Yankees, 10-5, behind Joe Dobson and several relievers, Boston manager Joe McCarthy told the Boston Herald, “Frankly I don’t know who I’ll pitch [in the playoff]…. We had men working in the bullpen all afternoon. I’ll have to find out who did what, who was ready.” Most observers expected McCarthy to pitch either Mel Parnell, who had three days’ rest, was 15-8 for the season and had already beaten the Indians three times in 1948. Ellis Kinder, 10-7, was also well-rested and had won four of his last five starts. In many subsequent interviews, Parnell has said that when he arrived at Fenway that day he expected to pitch, only to be told by McCarthy that the manager had changed his mind and decided to pitch Galehouse, something Parnell always believed was a “total surprise” to Galehouse.

But in a 1989 interview, Galehouse’s first ever about the playoff game, he told the author that he “had a pretty good idea the night before” that he was going to pitch. According to Galehouse, McCarthy sent “another player” around to talk to several Sox pitchers about starting the playoff game. “I’m not at liberty to say anything and I never will about who was asked to pitch,” he said. “But the others that were asked all had some little reason maybe why they thought they weren’t able to do it. They shall remain nameless. I was the only that said, ‘If he wants me to pitch, I’ll pitch.’”

Birdie Tebbetts admitted to the author that he was that player sent around by McCarthy, but refused to give any details about what was said to him that evening. “I’ve never told that story and I don’t intend to,” he said. “I’m gonna be avoiding it until I write it myself. I’ve got it on tape.” But neither Galehouse nor Tebbetts ever revealed before either died what truly happened that night.
I wonder what Ted thought of that decision; I don't recall that he ever commented on it. McCarthy bent over backwards to get along with Ted, famously eliminating the jacket and tie dress code for road trips that he had with the Yankees because Ted refused to wear neckties. But McCarthy blowing what turned out to be one of his last chances to return to the Series couldn't have sat well with him.
 
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Al Zarilla

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The reason most often cited is that Parnell was on only three days rest. There really was not much other rationale: Parnell was healthy, and had a 2.21 ERA and a 1.25 whip in 114 innings at Fenway that season. He had pitched 6 times against the Indians that season, for a 3.32 ERA and 1.61 whip across 38 innings, including three complete games. And while that whip is high, most of the damage was done in one July game in Cleveland where he couldn't get out of the first inning (and ironically Galehouse relieved him and pitched well for the rest of the game). Parnell pitched three times against the Tribe in Fenway that season, with complete game victories in two of those starts and only two earned runs in 8 innings in his other start. He had started six times on three days rest that season for a 3.92 era and 1.41 whip across 39 innings. So while he had been less effective on 3 days rest, there were no glaring red flags indicating that he shouldn't have started that game instead of Galehouse.

A SABR article written by Glenn Stout about Galehouse contains this intriguing passage:



I wonder what Ted thought of that decision; I don't recall that he ever commented on it. McCarthy bent over backwards to get along with Ted, famously eliminating the jacket and tie dress code for road trips that he had with the Yankees because Ted refused to wear neckties. But McCarthy blowing what turned out to be one of his last chances to return to the Series couldn't have sat well with him.
Three days rest was the norm back then. So, by that, Parnell was perfectly lined up for the playoff game on Oct. 4, having pitched on Sept. 30 per BBREF. Maybe Mac didn't believe in the 3 days rest thing. One last thing, the Sox only scored 3 runs, so you could say the offense was as responsible for the loss as the pitchers.
 

Deweys New Stance

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Three days rest was the norm back then. So, by that, Parnell was perfectly lined up for the playoff game on Oct. 4, having pitched on Sept. 30 per BBREF. Maybe Mac didn't believe in the 3 days rest thing. One last thing, the Sox only scored 3 runs, so you could say the offense was as responsible for the loss as the pitchers.
I wouldn't say three days was the norm, but it certainly wasn't uncommon. For example, Parnell had 10 starts on 4 days rest that season (and 8 starts on 5+ days rest) vs the 6 games he started on three days rest. So it wasn't his usual rest, but he had done it often enough. And yeah the Sox only scored 3 runs, but Galehouse took them out of the game by imploding without recording an out in the top of the fourth, even though Kinder didn't help matters. Also should be noted that Cleveland had previously knocked around Galehouse twice that season.
 

tims4wins

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This may be reactionary, but Sale simply isn’t SALE since his return. Hopefully next year, but I am riding with Eovaldi in the WC game if I get the choice.
 

cantor44

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Sale's pitch counts indicate he hasn't quite found his stride yet. He's laboring to get through 5. I mean, it's a mighty good five, but takes a whole lotta elbow grease ...

The obvious just occurred to me: the ideal is for the Sox to get the top WC spot and have the Yankees and Jays tie for the second. That way, they have to beat each other up, burning arms, in a play-in game before facing Sox ...plus game at Fenway.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I think the ideal is the Sox pass TB and then a 3-way tie for 2nd.
Agreed (though far-fetched). I think the next best ideal is to have the Mariners close the gap on both the Yanks and Jays, win a 2 or 3 way tiebreaker to get the second wildcard, then bring their worn out, jet-lagged carcasses to Fenway to lose.
 

Yo La Tengo

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The obvious just occurred to me: the ideal is for the Sox to get the top WC spot and have the Yankees and Jays tie for the second. That way, they have to beat each other up, burning arms, in a play-in game before facing Sox ...plus game at Fenway.
I'm curious when head-to-head record controls and when an extra play-in game is required?
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I'm curious when head-to-head record controls and when an extra play-in game is required?
Head to head determines home field for single game playoffs. All ties for playoff spots are broken by playing a game now, unlike, say, 2005 when it was a statistical tiebreaker that determined the Yankees were the division winner and the Sox the wildcard despite having identical records.

So in the scenario cantor44 proposes of the Yanks and Jays tying for WC2, they'd play a game in Toronto (Jays lead the series 10-6 with three to play) to determine who goes to Boston.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-playoff-tiebreaker-rules
 

Yo La Tengo

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Head to head determines home field for single game playoffs. All ties for playoff spots are broken by playing a game now, unlike, say, 2005 when it was a statistical tiebreaker that determined the Yankees were the division winner and the Sox the wildcard despite having identical records.

So in the scenario cantor44 proposes of the Yanks and Jays tying for WC2, they'd play a game in Toronto (Jays lead the series 10-6 with three to play) to determine who goes to Boston.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-playoff-tiebreaker-rules
Right on. Thanks!
 

Deweys New Stance

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Sale's pitch counts indicate he hasn't quite found his stride yet. He's laboring to get through 5. I mean, it's a mighty good five, but takes a whole lotta elbow grease ...

The obvious just occurred to me: the ideal is for the Sox to get the top WC spot and have the Yankees and Jays tie for the second. That way, they have to beat each other up, burning arms, in a play-in game before facing Sox ...plus game at Fenway.
Yeah I voted for Eovaldi largely on the basis of innings per start. I'd feel much more comfortable that he'd be able to go 6 or possibly 7 ip. Just wouldn't want to be counting on the Sox bullpen for more than 6-9 outs in an elimination game.
 

RIrooter09

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Eovaldi is just the better pitcher currently and has been one of the best pitchers in baseball this year. It's a no brainer for me.
 

BaseballJones

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Eovaldi has made 30 starts this season.

5+ runs allowed: 6 times (20.0%)
3-4 runs allowed: 5 times (16.7%)
1-2 runs allowed: 15 times (50.0%)
0 runs allowed: 4 times (13.3%)

Eovaldi vs. playoff-type teams (NY, TB, Tor, Sea, Oak, Chi, Hou) - 16 starts

5+ runs allowed: 4 times (25.0%)
3-4 runs allowed: 1 time (6.3%)
1-2 runs allowed: 9 times (56.3%)
0 runs allowed: 3 times (18.8%)

So 75% of the time he's faced playoff-type teams this year he's allowed 2 runs or fewer. That's pretty impressive. Though when he does give it up, he tends to give it up, if you know what I mean.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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Against Toronto, do you really want any pitcher going through that lineup more than twice? Eovaldi limits homers better than Sale, too.

Regardless, need to take care of the Yankees this weekend before mapping this out is really an option. Things could get dicey really quickly.
 

mfried

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Eovaldi is just the better pitcher currently and has been one of the best pitchers in baseball this year. It's a no brainer for me.
Especially after closely watching Sale’s laboriously effective 5-inning start vs. the depressed Mets on 9/22 I vote for Eovaldi. Sale’s command and velocity are both less than ideal. Pulling him after 5 was the obvious decision. Against Toronto or NY - trouble!
 

cantor44

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Head to head determines home field for single game playoffs. All ties for playoff spots are broken by playing a game now, unlike, say, 2005 when it was a statistical tiebreaker that determined the Yankees were the division winner and the Sox the wildcard despite having identical records.

So in the scenario cantor44 proposes of the Yanks and Jays tying for WC2, they'd play a game in Toronto (Jays lead the series 10-6 with three to play) to determine who goes to Boston.

https://www.mlb.com/news/mlb-playoff-tiebreaker-rules
Note that if there is a two-way tie for WC1, both teams are in - tie-breaker rules rather than an extra game determine HFA. The Craziest scenario is a three-team tie (not out of the question here!). That is to be avoided at all costs.
 

Earthbound64

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The reason most often cited is that Parnell was on only three days rest. There really was not much other rationale: Parnell was healthy, and had a 2.21 ERA and a 1.25 whip in 114 innings at Fenway that season. He had pitched 6 times against the Indians that season, for a 3.32 ERA and 1.61 whip across 38 innings, including three complete games. And while that whip is high, most of the damage was done in one July game in Cleveland where he couldn't get out of the first inning (and ironically Galehouse relieved him and pitched well for the rest of the game). Parnell pitched three times against the Tribe in Fenway that season, with complete game victories in two of those starts and only two earned runs in 8 innings in his other start. He had started six times on three days rest that season for a 3.92 era and 1.41 whip across 39 innings. So while he had been less effective on 3 days rest, there were no glaring red flags indicating that he shouldn't have started that game instead of Galehouse.

A SABR article written by Glenn Stout about Galehouse contains this intriguing passage:



I wonder what Ted thought of that decision; I don't recall that he ever commented on it. McCarthy bent over backwards to get along with Ted, famously eliminating the jacket and tie dress code for road trips that he had with the Yankees because Ted refused to wear neckties. But McCarthy blowing what turned out to be one of his last chances to return to the Series couldn't have sat well with him.
Not to mention the only chance at an all-Boston World Series.

Would anyone trust Joe Torre coming over to manage here? Or would anyone have trusted Billy Martin or Casey Stengel?
Seriously, f*** Joe McCarthy. One of the worst Joe McCarthys of the 21st century.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Serious question: Why not both?

If (say) Sale falters, Eovaldi can get warmed up.

Then it's Houck (assuming Whitlock is unavailable).

Biggest concern would be the late innings.
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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I don’t know that it means anything, but Plawecki has caught most of Eovaldi’s starts. Given that he hasn’t caught that many games in general, there’s got to be some reason why he normally catches him. Wonder why they deviated from that tonight?
 
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Sandy Leon Trotsky

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EDIT- rephrasing late night drunken post....
If there's one move I would love to see in the offseason, it'd be to get rid of Vazquez. Even if he turned into a post-season beast and carried the team to another WS title... I'd just be excited to see his trade value increase. He really has turned into a terrible catcher, he's garbage on the base paths, his bat is crappy but worst of all I think he's an awful "team leader".
 
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