Ime Udoka suspended for the 22-23 season

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I think there is a large population of NBA fans who treat what Woj and Shams write as gospel though. My guess is these leaks are purely a PR play for Ime's "brand" (or whatever is left of it). Clearly, NBA front offices (and this board) will likely be a lot more critical of the information they read from Woj/Shams. But, with respect to framing public opinion, they may be useful for Ime's camp, which is probably why they continue to do it.
Perhaps but again, it feels like we will get most of the key parts of the story over time. Fans may end up biased towards or against Udoka from the Tweets but it seems a huge stretch to think any Cs unwind or any prospective employer will use them for anything.

If sports fans being misinformed or having a bad take had any real consequences, SoSH would be one of the most powerful messageboards in the history of mothers' basements.
 

BigSoxFan

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Perhaps but again, it feels like we will get most of the key parts of the story over time. Fans may end up biased towards or against Udoka from the Tweets but it seems a huge stretch to think any Cs unwind or any prospective employer will use them for anything.

If sports fans being misinformed or having a bad take had any real consequences, SoSH would be one of the most powerful messageboards in the history of mothers' basements.
I don’t believe I was suggesting employers would be using these tweets. It’s purely for the consumption of the “average fan”, IMO. Not really sure how effective they will ultimately be, especially if more details eventually emerge.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I don’t believe I was suggesting employers would be using these tweets. It’s purely for the consumption of the “average fan”, IMO. Not really sure how effective they will ultimately be, especially if more details eventually emerge.
Understood. You were clear on that - I was not.
 

Cellar-Door

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ime’s people are doing a great job with these leaks. He made crude sexual remarks and then they had a consensual relationship after making said remarks and the Celtics are holding the remarks against him?!?!

OTOH, first time I’ve seen Woj call the woman a subordinate.
Honestly, even with the Woj soft-pedaling that's probably a killer for him.... sending graphic sexual messages to your subordinates is a behavior that is wildly unacceptable in any business, and given the power dynamic, there are strong cases to be made that it is then impossible to tell if there is true consent in a woman being pursued aggressively by her superior. That kind of behavior opens you up to all kinds of legal/HR issues. Ime will probably work in the NBA again because pro-sports is loaded with toxic workplaces and billionaires willing to cover up misdeeds, but any well run organization should want nothing to do with him.
 

Ale Xander

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These leaks are starting to piss me off. (Not that my feelings matter anything above zero). I'm on record as wanting info but this is worse than no info. I am beginning (well, more than beginning) to empathize with Wyc and Brad

If it was just crude language, it would be like a 3 game suspension, or something less than a year
If he had sex with a teenager who was a daughter of an employee/owner, he'd be fired immediately.

The truth is somewhere in the middle to explain this season suspension. Even myself, I'm not anxious to hear the info anymore. Let's protect the victims, move on, and play ball with Joey Mazz.

Go Celtics! Banner 18 in sight.
 

Cellar-Door

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These leaks are starting to piss me off. (Not that my feelings matter anything above zero). I'm on record as wanting info but this is worse than no info. I am beginning (well, more than beginning) to empathize with Wyc and Brad

If it was just crude language, it would be like a 3 game suspension, or something less than a year
If he had sex with a teenager who was a daughter of an employee/owner, he'd be fired immediately.

The truth is somewhere in the middle to explain this season suspension. Even myself, I'm not anxious to hear the info anymore. Let's protect the victims, move on, and play ball with Joey Mazz.

Go Celtics! Banner 18 in sight.
Crude language is a euphamism for "sexual harrassment", that the woman may have later engaged in a relationship with him doesn't change the wildly inappropriate nature of the initial conduct. It wouldn't be 3 games, it would be suspended for a long enough period that he negotiates a buyout, which is what happened.
 

Ale Xander

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I don’t think that’s fair to sexual harassment victims. But maybe I just don’t understand euphemisms.
 

brendan f

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Crude language is a euphamism for "sexual harrassment", that the woman may have later engaged in a relationship with him doesn't change the wildly inappropriate nature of the initial conduct.
I think this is right. As far as other teams hiring him, it might depend on what eventually gets out to them and the public. If there are leaks about his specific language/conduct, he's essentially cooked, but until then a team could spin it as speculation. But my sense is pretty much anyone who thought the Celtics overreacted has recanted. At this point, I trust Wyc/Brad and the investigation that took place, and I think other teams do as well. I'm more interested in how everyone moves forward and much less interested in the details of what transpired. Whatever happened was bad. Ime had all the makings of the next great Celtics coach and now it's just a tragic fall from grace. Can Joe and the coaching staff lead this team to a championship? And if not, can the players help the staff by learning from last year, holding each other accountable, and figuring things out on their own? These are the questions that are going to define their season.
 

Marciano490

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I don’t think that’s fair to sexual harassment victims. But maybe I just don’t understand euphemisms.
Think of it as Ime’s PR. Sexual harassment sounds - and is - bad. Crude language is locker room talk. Sounds like he was just telling dirty jokes and the woke feminist mob came for him like they may well come for you and me, my brother, just out here repeating funny jokes and telling coworkers they have nice asses. Where’s the harm in that?
 

Cellar-Door

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I don’t think that’s fair to sexual harassment victims. But maybe I just don’t understand euphemisms.
Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.
 

DJnVa

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Isn't the fact that she's described as "subordinate" an important point?
 
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riboflav

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Yes. It is very telling perhaps that Woj went there by describing her as a subordinate and also as I and others have pointed out Ime's so-called crude remarks that predated the alleged consensual affair were probably Ime's representatives' way of saying how bad could this all be if Ime made these comments and YET she still engaged in relations? And, as we all have alluded to by this point that is all beside the point. The face of the organization made "crude" remarks to a subordinate of his. I assume he was the first of the two involved to make these kinds of remarks but even if he wasn't he should have taken whatever she may have said to his boss. Regardless, Ime did not handle this appropriately in any way.
 

djbayko

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Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.
Plus, there’s the earlier report which said that the law firm found Ime continued harassment after the relationship ended as well.
 

Cesar Crespo

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Why isn't harassment illegal? I guess it is if it's reports to police and it continues... but not until then.
 

joe dokes

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Think of it as Ime’s PR. Sexual harassment sounds - and is - bad. Crude language is locker room talk. Sounds like he was just telling dirty jokes and the woke feminist mob came for him like they may well come for you and me, my brother, just out here repeating funny jokes and telling coworkers they have nice asses. Where’s the harm in that?
Exactly what they want the public to think.
But I suspect other front offices will manage to get the "real story" somehow if they're ever on the track to consider hiring him.
 

Cellar-Door

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Exactly what they want the public to think.
But I suspect other front offices will manage to get the "real story" somehow if they're ever on the track to consider hiring him.
I'm sure they will, but that a lot of people will have already thought of it as "not a big deal" will give them cover to hire him anyway if they want
 

Bernard Gilkey baby

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Is it one of those situations like that movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Glyllenhall where their naughty talk evolved into a consensual naughty power dynamic that made the danger and the taboo all the more enticing? Is their initial erotic roleplay now being used against Ime?

Or was this a Danaerys and Khal Drogo situation where it started with sexual assault but the couple just wanted to forget that part and get on with the romance but the lawyers were like, “Sorry this isn’t game of thrones.”

This is just speculation.
 

Bernard Gilkey baby

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I’ll tell you something. That really tracks. It’s speculation but that really tracks with what I know about married men in LA.

Maybe this guy is just guessing and will end being right.

Maybe. Maybe.
 

riboflav

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Yeah that reads like anyone of us here could have taken the snippets of all the rumors that have been out there and put together a timeline that includes all those and viola!!

EDIT: IOW, some of that might be accurate but I'm highly skeptical of this account.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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If you're in an open relationship how are you a "serial offender"? "So yeah, I know we're in an open relationship but you're definitely fucking too many people."
 

Marciano490

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Is it one of those situations like that movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Glyllenhall where their naughty talk evolved into a consensual naughty power dynamic that made the danger and the taboo all the more enticing? Is their initial erotic roleplay now being used against Ime?

Or was this a Danaerys and Khal Drogo situation where it started with sexual assault but the couple just wanted to forget that part and get on with the romance but the lawyers were like, “Sorry this isn’t game of thrones.”

This is just speculation.
Or, they’re real people.
 

Mystic Merlin

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Is it one of those situations like that movie Secretary with James Spader and Maggie Glyllenhall where their naughty talk evolved into a consensual naughty power dynamic that made the danger and the taboo all the more enticing? Is their initial erotic roleplay now being used against Ime?

Or was this a Danaerys and Khal Drogo situation where it started with sexual assault but the couple just wanted to forget that part and get on with the romance but the lawyers were like, “Sorry this isn’t game of thrones.”

This is just speculation.
No Bill Simmons-esque forced scenarios referencing pop culture, please.
 

joe dokes

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If you're in an open relationship how are you a "serial offender"? "So yeah, I know we're in an open relationship but you're definitely fucking too many people."
It may not be an "offense" to his marriage, but "I'm in an open relationship" is not really a defense to inappropriate conduct w/r/t others.
 

AB in DC

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Basically Woj is spinning by saying he used crude language in messages before they entered a relationship, so as to make people think, "oh big deal bad language" but almost certainly what was actually found by the investigation is he started sending his subordinate sexual messages, which is pretty much textbook harrassment, and against the policies of every company in the US in part because if there is a complaint it's basically open and shut for the employment discrimination case.
Yeah, I'm having a hard time reading Woj's tweet as being pro-Udoka spin. Just from that text alone it looks like Udoka likely committed sexual harassment on top of having an inappropriate relationship with a subordinate. Even if there's nothing more, I don't see how he coaches for the Cs again.
 

Spelunker

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It may not be an "offense" to his marriage, but "I'm in an open relationship" is not really a defense to inappropriate conduct w/r/t others.
Right: I know lots of people that are in various stages of ENM relationships. That 'E' is the really important part: being shitty with colleagues and subordinates (and people that are in a monogamous relationship) isn't part of it.
 

riboflav

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Bill Maher weighs in. Old man yelling at clouds but I think he has a couple good points though he loses them in his mangling of logic and whataboutism. In any event, I post it here because the Ime Udoka situation is his jumping off point... even though it really should not be. Like make your points about women's agency and how people should meet each other without using the Ime situation as the jumping off point to make this argument. That said, his reminder of how the Obamas met is powerful.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O880LqI_jxs
 

InstaFace

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Yeah I buy Maher's broader argument. Employees only really have an interest when it involves harassment / stalking or a subordinate relationship, or affects work in other respects.

I don't buy that we know enough (or will ever know enough) about what happened with Udoka to know whether that fits into the paradigm.
 

Rovin Romine

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Yeah I buy Maher's broader argument. Employees only really have an interest when it involves harassment / stalking or a subordinate relationship, or affects work in other respects.

I don't buy that we know enough (or will ever know enough) about what happened with Udoka to know whether that fits into the paradigm.
Beyond the season long suspension and the public apology.
 

InstaFace

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Beyond the season long suspension and the public apology.
Yeah those are the two things we know. But if you can conclude from that alone that Udoka's actions either did, or did not, fit into an idea that companies are over-prohibiting or over-punishing what should be treated as perfectly reasonable relationships between consenting adults, you're better at reading the tea leaves than I.

My impression is that right now, discussing the topic more-abstractly as a societal matter, is basically all we can do, because the specific case here remains shrouded in rumor and conjecture. So I found the clip interesting in that regard.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I would think that high-profile, high-salaried employee of a relatively small (in employee number) company who has serial flings with married team employees is not a sustainable situation (if that is indeed what went on). I mean, it is not what comes immediately to mind to describe "toxic work environment" but it seems pretty damed toxic in its own way.
 

lexrageorge

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Yeah those are the two things we know. But if you can conclude from that alone that Udoka's actions either did, or did not, fit into an idea that companies are over-prohibiting or over-punishing what should be treated as perfectly reasonable relationships between consenting adults, you're better at reading the tea leaves than I.

My impression is that right now, discussing the topic more-abstractly as a societal matter, is basically all we can do, because the specific case here remains shrouded in rumor and conjecture. So I found the clip interesting in that regard.
The Celtics themselves stated that the relationship became known to them in July, after which they hired a law firm. However, there were no signals anywhere until recently that a suspension was even being considered. Anna Horford, who has an obvious connection to the team, deleted a tweet once she became aware of the details and apologized for jumping to conclusions. There are lot of tea leaves out there that indicate this is not a typical workplace romance situation (which indeed in some cases are being over-punished) or even a typical boss-subordinate type relationship (which are problematic anywhere, but can sometimes be worked out without resorting to termination).
 

radsoxfan

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The Celtics themselves stated that the relationship became known to them in July, after which they hired a law firm. However, there were no signals anywhere until recently that a suspension was even being considered. Anna Horford, who has an obvious connection to the team, deleted a tweet once she became aware of the details and apologized for jumping to conclusions. There are lot of tea leaves out there that indicate this is not a typical workplace romance situation (which indeed in some cases are being over-punished) or even a typical boss-subordinate type relationship (which are problematic anywhere, but can sometimes be worked out without resorting to termination).
I think we can say at bare minimum:

1. Partner(s) were inappropriate
2. A pattern of behavior
3. Unwillingness to stop
4. At best "crude" conduct, possibly harassment


There certainly may be more info that comes to light that's worse than this (the Barnes stuff would imply there probably is), but frankly this alone is not someone that can stay as head coach of the team. Certainly not a typical workplace romance situation.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Is it really a conspiracy if people vested in an outcome try to spin things?

I will ask the question again - even if SAS is carrying water for Udoka, what does it matter if his audience buys their version of events?

That account will not be used for Udoka's release and if prospective employers are using Steven A Smith to run their background checks it would be a first.

In short, why do we think these attempts at spin are a problem?
 

AlNipper49

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There are a few names floating around out there. Let’s try to not use this place to propagate anything that’s not 100% confirmed. Folks haven’t done this thankfully, but did want to throw in a gentle reminder. Thanks!