Mazzulla is already well liked by the teams core as a young ex-player from what I understand.
Ime Udoka suspended for the 22-23 season
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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The argument would be that if you require disclosure and have a policy for dealing with it (reassignment, independent employee review, etc) rather than just termination, you encourage up-front and honest disclosure that ensures that things don't get really bad; whereas if the policy is 'immediate termination', it's much more likely that something that happens is covered up or not known until it creates a really big HR problem (e.g. the subordinate is let go for an unrelated reason and then suddenly brings up the relationship)
Yeah, I think too much is being made of a long forgotten assault in his past.
Probably true, but players in today’s NBA are very sophisticated. If the vast majority of the posters in this thread understand why it’s a bad look not to punish Ime for this, I think it’s pretty belittling to the players to not assume they get it too. If I were a player, even if I thought there was nothing wrong with what Ime did in a vacuum I’d probably still think he’s a fucking moron for even creating this situation in the first place.
The one possible exception to this, though, is if there does end up being the perception that Ime was punished more harshly than otherwise because the other person in the relationship was connected to ownership in some way. That’s a situation where I could see the players being legitimately frustrated.
If they had kept this quiet and in house I can see them ride this out. But once the story is out and it's an open topic for never ending questions and distractions, they have to cut it off.
Rest of the league laughing. It's a joke at this point. Organizations can't have that. They'll be fine with another coach who doesn't have this baggage.
Rest of the league laughing. It's a joke at this point. Organizations can't have that. They'll be fine with another coach who doesn't have this baggage.
Or SAS is just full of shit like he often is. Anyone with a brain can look at this mess of incomplete and strange information and surmise that there is more to the story.
Of all the speculation, this seems plausible - if the women is married, I’d imagine they didn’t disclose the relationship, which might be doing some added work on the suspension.
With Patricia, not great to have half our major franchises with that sort of history in the upper coaching ranks.
Agree. They’re far too talented for this to completely derail their performance on the court, and by all accounts Mazzulla is well liked. I’m more concerned the Jays start to become frustrated with this organizational dysfunction. Three head coaches in three years isn’t great.
Actually, I would not be surprised if the "leak" is a trial balloon. Float a possible one year suspension, see what the public (and player) reaction is and adjust accordingly.
As someone who practices labor and employment law, an undisclosed physical relationship with a subordinate employee is a real problem. Exposure exists both with to involved employee in the event the relationship (physical or employment) sours, and to co-workers. As others have explained, if you create an environment where sleeping with the "boss" is perceived as the way to get ahead, you have substantial exposure to your other (especially female) employees. I have been involved in both kinds of claims, these are not just hypotheticals. As an organization, these are reasons you discipline/terminate the leader. Another reason is the incredibly poor judgment the behavior reflects. That being said, the approach an organization adopts always takes into account the senior employee's value to the organization.
As is true in all workplaces, the dynamic with the players is a real and relevant consideration, particularly if they know the staffer and have witnessed interactions between the two. I have been involved in situations where the folks in closest proximity to the situation saw the lower level employee as an active participant or the pursuer in the relationship, and felt a popular, effective leader was being unfairly punished for a personal indiscretion.
Long way of saying, these situations are a mess for employers. You are always choosing among least bad options.
Strawman alert.
No, I do not think that Tatum will be missing specific 4th quarter shots because of Ime's extracurricular activities.
I DO believe, however, that teams who ultimately end up winning championships do not have this type of stuff swirling around them. It's an aggregate thing, that builds up into meaningless media questions and exhaustion. Seen Steve Kerr deal with this type of stuff? Nope.
If you're trying to win a championship, no news is goods news. And this is not good news.
Again I think it’s a little belittling to the players to think they don’t get the nuances of the situation. Brad left because the team was underperforming and he was more suited for a front office role. Ime left (or was suspended) because he made an idiotic, short-sighted, selfish decision. If we get that, the players surely do too.
Plus, they made the Finals last year. At least so far, any “organizational dysfunction” has had no impact on the on-court performance.
I mean, they can be frustrated by things with nuances they understand, right? I get frustrated by stuff I understand all the time.
He was arrested for striking a woman in the neck at a bar.
And also involved (while in college I think) in a fight at a Pirates game, think it was a bunch of college bros throwing down type of thing.
Well, regardless of the players’ thoughts on how Ime’s situation is being handled, things are still pretty dysfunctional right about now, and dysfunction isn’t well known for keeping star players happy.
Fair or unfair, there will be a racial component to the Ime issue, and given the perception of Boston - it won't be pretty. I do not think there is nearly enough information available to make any statements one or another, but its an aspect of this story.
There is bound to be a lot of frustration and anger on this matter no matter how its resolved. Some of it will be justified and some of it will be disappointed Celtics fans taking their frustration out on...somebody.
There is bound to be a lot of frustration and anger on this matter no matter how its resolved. Some of it will be justified and some of it will be disappointed Celtics fans taking their frustration out on...somebody.
I think the only way this torpedoes the team this year is if Ime's coaching is a difference maker on the court and whoever is in the seat, with whatever additional support the Celtics hire, can't collectively do what Ime does.
I don't think it is likely. Too much talent on the team.
I don't think it is likely. Too much talent on the team.
I think how Ime reacts will also be key. If he’s defiant and / or not conciliatory, it will be bad.
I don't think the issue will be the reason the C's miss specific shots, but in the grand scheme, saying this should have no bearing on the team is the equivalent of saying "the head coach doesn't matter." If that's true, then fuck it, put me in to coach.
People can say "Mazzulla is well liked." I mean, I'd be shocked if any assistant coach would last very long if they were actively disliked, but being the head coach who determines playing time, enforces rules and is the hammer to the player's nail is a very different position. The players may like Mazzulla, but when he benches Marcus Smart for firing up an airball, or screams at Jaylen for missing a rotation on defense, will they listen to him? Will they tune him out?
Chemistry matters. We certainly have a long list of coaches that were initially well liked that weren't so well liked anymore, don't we?
Yeah it's a pretty big deal especially a week before fucking training camp opens up.
I'm definitely want to be clear about what I'm saying here. If Ime could have hurt the prospects of the other person is what's important, not whether he did. Any intimate arrangement where one party doesn't fully have the ability to say no without worrying about actual repercussions should be taboo IMO and has been everywhere that I've worked. Whether the cheerleaders or copy repair people report directly to Ime or not is irrelevant, if there's a power imbalance. I think that we're 100% in agreement on this.
That said, I don't think that the personal friend of an owner is in that position, nor would be the VP of finance.
At the end of the day I still cannot believe how much of a fucking imbecile Ime is for even putting the team in this position, regardless of the eventual outcome. It’s truly mind boggling. He didn’t even have to keep it in his pants, he just had to keep it away from anyone associated with the team. This is why we can’t have nice things.
Oh, I completely agree with this and didn't mean to suggest that the coach doesn't matter. I think it's almost a guarantee that whoever they get to replace Ime won't be as good of a coach - I mean Ime took a team to the Finals in his first year as a coach, hard to top that.
My only point was that if I were a player I don't think I'd be specifically pissed at the organization/ownership (knowing what we do know, anyway). But there's no doubt this could have larger ripple effects if the new coach sucks or just doesn't coalesce with the team - that was basically what happened with Stevens and we saw some of the negative effects of that. But this ultimately falls on Ime, IMO - in other words, I think one can both acknowledge this may very well harm the team's success and acknowledge that it's right for the Celtics to suspend/fire Ime for what he did.
I don't think this tanks the season, and a small part of me wonders if there could be a silver lining to an Ime suspension/absence this year. I think Ime did a tremendous job last season, getting buy-in and consistent effort on the defensive end and working through some growing pains on offense to allow Tatum/Brown to become better facilitators. The blueprint is there for how this team succeeds, and he deserves a lot of credit for it.
But, I thought he was significantly outcoached in the Finals, and really, in the Conference Finals as well. The C's really should have blown the doors off of Miami and Golden State, and instead were pushed to seven in one series and bounced in the other because they failed to make good adjustments (imho). While I'm sure he will learn and improve, maybe this will turn out to be a Jackson/Kerr transition if we're lucky.
But, I thought he was significantly outcoached in the Finals, and really, in the Conference Finals as well. The C's really should have blown the doors off of Miami and Golden State, and instead were pushed to seven in one series and bounced in the other because they failed to make good adjustments (imho). While I'm sure he will learn and improve, maybe this will turn out to be a Jackson/Kerr transition if we're lucky.
Hot take of the thread right here.
What exactly will be swirling around this team next spring after Ime has been out of his role for 8 months? Obviously not ideal that you replace your Head Coach with last years 2nd Asst but I’m sure there will be many more greater challenges from now until June that this team will face.
An NBA coach isn’t nearly as impactful as an NFL coach who which sometimes gets lost this time of the year. The NBA is a players league. KC Jones even has a couple of rings from watching his players play. I’ve always placed a typical Head Coaches value at that of a 7th/8th man rotation player and their pay is commiserate with that level of impact. I don’t see any reason why something like a Mazzulla/Fogle bench can’t be effective.
It's kind of shocking how long the Celtics have dragged this out today. Social media is filled with theories of who the female partner(s!) might be, including at least a couple references to women who today deleted their social media accounts or turned off commenting on their IGs. Really unfair to everyone not involved that they have to be under this scrutiny and guessing game when they've done nothing wrong.
Wonder if they're trying to work out some sort of contract buyout with Ime and he's dragging his feet?
Wonder if they're trying to work out some sort of contract buyout with Ime and he's dragging his feet?
The media/sponsors pay way more attention to the head coaches than the assistants. Now that this came to light it wouldn't surprise me if he loses his job, fairly or not.
I think hiring him would be a mistake
It’s really helpful to have Al is an on the court leader here as well. As respected a veteran as there is and can help guide the players through this.
Yes. As much as I appreciate all the nuanced employment law discussion and folks' in HR sharing their experiences on how these situations affect workplace culture, I keep coming back to how mind-boggling it is that Ime could not resist this particular impulse with one of the only people that should have been off-limits as a romantic partner.
And I am worried about the backlash becoming a problem if the perception intimated in Richard Jefferson's tweet of "white owner in Boston goes overboard upon learning of Black coach's affair" becomes the takeaway here.
Also holding the line until more details come out.
If the affair is with a co-worker’s wife, it’s a big ball of string to untangle. Especially if the husband had any adverse employment actions while the affair was going on. Or if the wife had any promotions over other people, etc. Before they can really wrap their arms around it, they might need to interview a dozen employees just to make sure nothing *did* occur. The last thing they want is to announce a punishment and then look like they were covering up something when it turns out there’s more to the story, or get sued based on an improperly lenient response.
Which explains why this is being leaked now. Clear out the distractions and get a replacement in before training camp begins. Can't have Ime show up to training camp.
Is there more detail on this? Was it for striking? Choking? Grabbing the back of a woman’s neck and turning her towards him? The only articles I’ve seen on this are nebulous.
https://www.espn.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/14785/joe-mazzulla-cited-for-public-urination
https://www.timeswv.com/sports/father-says-mazzulla-getting-treatment/article_84aa5402-9510-5fbc-8b5f-e52c80b9be17.htmlhttps://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/27/sports/ncaabasketball/27mazzula.html
Don't see this as an issue. Seems like Mazzulla needed some help, got it and that's been the end of the problems.
SoSH is conducting an independent, unbiased investigation. These details matter!
i think he’s going for the pot calling the kettle if the SVP met his wife while both worked for the Celtics.
Roughly 10% of marriages spawn from work place romance for what it’s worth.
edit: didn’t mean to quote you LTP
Well, he was also told to stop doing something against policy, and didn't. There's judgment issues x 2 at play.
This by a thousand. Ime was the head coach hand picked by the team's star players. Now, after his first season when they reach the finals, the owners are hitting him with a huge suspension for behavior that (despite the poor judgement) is not that uncommon. They are putting a ton of faith in Mazzulla on getting a young team to ignore the noise and stay focused. If he fails and the players are unhappy, good luck to this team and this ownership group moving forward. And this is giving the C's the benefit of looking at this situation color blind, but the racial aspects are not going to make it less toxic.
Someone made a good point on Twitter (ew...) that each bit of speculation on who Udoka was involved with may be exposing an innocent person to unwarranted scrutiny.
Aside from the obviously afflicted parties, it cant be an easy day to be a woman and working for the Celtics today.
Aside from the obviously afflicted parties, it cant be an easy day to be a woman and working for the Celtics today.
Post 1 of this thread was like 9:30 last night, and the team hasn't said shit.
Even if Udoka's suspension is valid--which is in doubt--the team has handled this poorly. A lot of people are squirming today, and most of them don't deserve it.