In Case You Missed It - 2004 Docuseries on Netflix
- Thread starter loneredseat
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Another one I had forgotten was Manny essentially telling Tito to pound sand upon arriving to spring training. It has escaped my memory that the Sox put him on waivers the previous winter. Which raises the question if another team claimed him and the Sox do not significantly replace his spot on roster or $$, do they win in 04?
Actually, they do include the Clark ground rule double, noting how fortuitous the unusual park dimensions were for the Sox.
Watched it and enjoyed it. The first episode was hard to get through knowing i had to relive the pain of 03. Took me two tries to get through that then i burned through the final two. The joy of 04 will never die for those of us that lived it. Happy they made this even though they glossed over quite a bit. I'd gladly watch an 07, 13 & 18 documentary. Each win was special in it's own way but the first will always be the top.
There is no justification. The entire world knew that Pedro was gassed and shouldn't have been out there. If you paid attention to the Sox at all that season you knew that 7 innings was his limit. FFS, my always drunk friend Billy who didn't watch the Sox all year but was watching that game with me at a bar knew Pedro shouldn't have been out there in the 8th.
NO JUSTIFICATION
Timlin was throwing a perfect game in the series to that point. Over 9 IP and 0 baserunners
100% This is not 20/20 hindsight, it was real-time "WHAT THE FUCK!?!?!?!?!"
Everyone's level of recall is amazing to me, how they can still remember these seemingly tiny details from games 20 years ago (and not just the important postseason ones). I can barely remember Tuesday.
My wife and 6yo son were watching the game with me. They hadn't seen any of the games up to that time. When Pedro finished in the 7th, I got up to use the bathroom (hadn't moved from in front of the TV up to that moment). I said to my wife, "Now they bring in Mile Timlin". When I got back to the room, my wife said "They left Pedro in". I replied "That's impossible, he was finished after last inning". I could not believe Grady was so bad in that moment. It was too much for him. It's still too much for him.
Watched it all last night. Great to relive all the memories and all. Two things jumped out at me. One was the depth of the rift between Nomar and some of the others, especially in the aftermath of the ARod trade stuff. I either had forgotten or completely missed the whole thing with Millar saying he wanted ARod. Millar's a dope without a filter and always has been, so on the one hand I'm surprised anything he said was taken so seriously. On the other, Nomar came off as overly and unnecessarily sensitive. The doc seemed to want to portray him as a victim but he came off to me as a bit of an asshole. The whole bit where he called into WEEI upset about the trade talks (also, did he not try to call Theo or Lucchino or Henry to find out what was going on first?) and being replaced seemed to ignore that he didn't have to be replaced. He could have changed positions (or ARod could have like he did with the MFY). His mind immediately went to "they don't want me" and I never understood that.
The second thing, and I think it's been mentioned before, is holy shit does Schilling look terrible. Grady Little looked like he's in better shape and he's got Schill by almost 20 years. What the hell happened?
The second thing, and I think it's been mentioned before, is holy shit does Schilling look terrible. Grady Little looked like he's in better shape and he's got Schill by almost 20 years. What the hell happened?
As has been mentioned elsewhere, I wanted to let each episode breathe and let the memory of the pain of 03 wash back over me before moving on to glory. I have three comments after the first episode: 1. Baseball is comparatively a pretty genteel game. George Carlin covers it well as compared to football. But when Millar tells the story of Pedro coming to him and saying, "Who do you want?". That gave me goosebumps in a very primal way. 2. I am thoroughly convinced that if JWH had indeed gone down to the dugout in the 8th inning and told Grady to GTFU before the game was over, the Sox would have scored at least 5 in the top of the 9th and we would have won the Series one year earlier, and THAT would have been the greatest sports story in history in a very Major League sort of way. 3. I am super proud of Barnacle for the work on the project. His Dad must be over the moon. I became enamored of Mike during his eulogy of Tim Russert, and his friendship with Sox superfan Doris Kearns Goodwin is well chronicled.
I have no other Sox fans in my life. My wife said she was going to watch with me in under to understand my brain, but decided not to. I appreciate you allowing me to post occasionally to have that sense of community that is lacking in my three-dimensional life.
I have no other Sox fans in my life. My wife said she was going to watch with me in under to understand my brain, but decided not to. I appreciate you allowing me to post occasionally to have that sense of community that is lacking in my three-dimensional life.
You want to know something? Loving this documentary, it’s amazing. But when you’re in it like we were in it 20 years ago it doesn’t really teach you anything because we lived it breathed it, so it’s just very entertaining and nostalgic.
BUT, this entire time time I thought Grady Little was just an overmatched, old school, good guy and players manager. But he was actually just an extremely stupid, stubborn, no accountability fucking asshole.
BUT, this entire time time I thought Grady Little was just an overmatched, old school, good guy and players manager. But he was actually just an extremely stupid, stubborn, no accountability fucking asshole.
Netflix should be happy that I didn't write this or it would have been twice as long. I watched it with my sons and stopped it a couple of times to provide a little more background. What was interesting was that history has focused on Game Four, my sons didn't realize that Game Five was an afternoon start that went 14 innings and finished just before the Cardinals/Astros game that had the late game. They still have no idea how I lived through that. What they don't realize, and what others that haven't gone through it, is that after Game Three, I wasn't mentally checked out, but I knew that they had a real, real, real narrow path. If they hit it, great, but the near inevitability of the Yankee sweep kept the highs from getting too high. But once Roberts scored the tying run...
The missing pieces:
There was a subtext that they missed in the redemption of Tim Wakefield:
Wakefield in Game Three of the 2004 ALCS: They never mentioned that Wake basically took it on the chin to save the bullpen. Gave up his start in Game Four to knowingly walk into a buzzsaw. Saving those arms was critical to the Sox winning Games Four and Five.
Wakefield in Game Five of the 2004 ALCS: Just how close NY was to scoring in the 13th inning with Varitek catching (or rather not catching) the knuckler. Three innings and gets the win.
The Yankees bullpen:
They really glossed over the end of the 2004 season. I remember listening to a Yankee game in August when John Sterling had made a comment that NY had essentially wrapped up the division and could start resting the bullpen. The Sox had a pretty easy schedule for most of August and tore through everyone which made the race tighter. Even though the WC was pretty much assured of going to the AL East, NY never took their foot off the throttle which gassed the bullpen for the playoffs.
Esteban Loaiza was a merely a footnote, but he was a key acquisition from the White Sox that season. Runner-up for the CY Young in 2003, All-Star in both 2003 and 2004. Had to look this up, but he pretty much sucked in his starts for NY that year. But there he was on the mound going toe to toe with Wake in Game Five.
The role of SOSH in two key events that Netflix spent some time on:
It seemed like Theo and Hoyer just showing up sold Schilling on coming to Boston. It would have been nice to mention that Schilling was swayed by 1) The possibility of playing for Tito again; 2) Schilling, who paid a lot of attention to analytics, was concerned about the ballpark effect of Fenway on his effectiveness. Theo used analytics to prove it out; 3) The Thanksgiving night chat with SOSH to show how rabid and hungry this fanbase was for a Red Sox championship.
For as much time as they spent on the Nomar deadline trade, they could have mentioned that the first piece of media that broke the story was on SOSH.
Maybe they saved all that for the Director's Cut that is geared specifically for Sox fans. If they did, I'd watch it again.
The missing pieces:
There was a subtext that they missed in the redemption of Tim Wakefield:
Wakefield in Game Three of the 2004 ALCS: They never mentioned that Wake basically took it on the chin to save the bullpen. Gave up his start in Game Four to knowingly walk into a buzzsaw. Saving those arms was critical to the Sox winning Games Four and Five.
Wakefield in Game Five of the 2004 ALCS: Just how close NY was to scoring in the 13th inning with Varitek catching (or rather not catching) the knuckler. Three innings and gets the win.
The Yankees bullpen:
They really glossed over the end of the 2004 season. I remember listening to a Yankee game in August when John Sterling had made a comment that NY had essentially wrapped up the division and could start resting the bullpen. The Sox had a pretty easy schedule for most of August and tore through everyone which made the race tighter. Even though the WC was pretty much assured of going to the AL East, NY never took their foot off the throttle which gassed the bullpen for the playoffs.
Esteban Loaiza was a merely a footnote, but he was a key acquisition from the White Sox that season. Runner-up for the CY Young in 2003, All-Star in both 2003 and 2004. Had to look this up, but he pretty much sucked in his starts for NY that year. But there he was on the mound going toe to toe with Wake in Game Five.
The role of SOSH in two key events that Netflix spent some time on:
It seemed like Theo and Hoyer just showing up sold Schilling on coming to Boston. It would have been nice to mention that Schilling was swayed by 1) The possibility of playing for Tito again; 2) Schilling, who paid a lot of attention to analytics, was concerned about the ballpark effect of Fenway on his effectiveness. Theo used analytics to prove it out; 3) The Thanksgiving night chat with SOSH to show how rabid and hungry this fanbase was for a Red Sox championship.
For as much time as they spent on the Nomar deadline trade, they could have mentioned that the first piece of media that broke the story was on SOSH.
Maybe they saved all that for the Director's Cut that is geared specifically for Sox fans. If they did, I'd watch it again.
Baseball has changed.
2003: ..Shouldn't have let Pedro finish the 8th
2023: ..Shouldn't have let Starter finish the 5th
2003: ..Shouldn't have let Pedro finish the 8th
2023: ..Shouldn't have let Starter finish the 5th
Also, Millar’s “oh that was the question” surprise of a 20 year old question wasn’t all that convincing lol
Along those lines, they highlighted a "rough" start by Schilling early in the 2004 season in which he gave up a grand slam to "9th hitter" Chris Gomez...in the 8th inning of the game. I looked up the box score and Schilling threw 123 pitches that night. Not only that but six of the seven runs he gave up came in the 7th and 8th. He was through 6.2 innings on 92 pitches and had a 3-1 lead. A great outing to that point. From that moment on, it was triple, single (run), single, single (run), fly out, single, strikeout, single, popup, walk, grand slam. How quickly would he have been pulled if that was 2024? Definitely wouldn't have started the eighth (102 pitches). Probably wouldn't have finished the seventh.
Makes for an interesting conversation as far as what is the better approach.
This was very well done - and agreed with others saying it could have been 4 hours longer and still great.
What I fail to remember vividly is how absolutely stacked those offenses were, from 1 to 9.
What I fail to remember vividly is how absolutely stacked those offenses were, from 1 to 9.
In my haste to post I forgot #4. I have only watched the first episode, but Doug Mirabelli talking about Wake and Trot Nixon consoling him after Boone gave me a big lump in my throat. That dude was really what the Red Sox should be all about.
He and Scott Williamson (8 IP, 3 hits, 1 ER, 14 Ks) were untouchable in the '03 postseason. I lost my voice screaming for either of them to come in for the 8th.
An admission from me is that at the time I didn't mind starting the 8th inning with Pedro. I believe Pedro is the best pitcher who has ever picked up a baseball in world history, so I was fine to give him a chance to start that inning.
I haven't watched the series yet so I don't want to make people re-relive this, but after looking back at the box score I remember when Pedro got Nick Johnson to pop out for the 1st out I was like "Okay, this is perfect, as soon as he gives up a baserunner we'll pull him, but maybe he can get through this inning after all!"
Then Jeter ripped that double and I figured "Oh well, great job Pedro, we got this" and then... Grady stayed in the dugout... and my heart started to sink... and then Bernie Williams singled... and Little was STILL in the dugout... and then my soul started to leave my body...
My only criticism is that it was still pretty heavy on narratives, reverse the curse blah blah blah. That was part of it but I don't think we needed any more of that tired stuff; what it was 99% about is the actual baseball played by the actual players. The best parts were hearing from the players about what they were really thinking. Even Millar dropped his shtick and got real a lot. They didn't care about the history but they cared a lot about 2003.
But I guess Netflix had to play up the curse stuff for casual fans. Or maybe Barnicle's dad owe Shaughnessy a solid for some reason and they're paying it off.
But I guess Netflix had to play up the curse stuff for casual fans. Or maybe Barnicle's dad owe Shaughnessy a solid for some reason and they're paying it off.
Hot Take Alert: In hindsight, it was probably better off that the Sox lost in 2003 in the way that they did. It's been mentioned before, but without losing to NY in a heartbreaking game like that basically put almost everyone on a mission in 2004. However, and here's where I am, what if the Sox lost to the Marlins like the Yankees had. Would they have been so motivated in the 2003 off-season?
And yes. Nomar did get portrayed as bitte in the doc. What they didn't really mention is that Nomar was quickly regressing to be an ordinary player. He wasn't the same player after the wrist injury which made him press more in the field and at the plate. He took the rivalry with A-Rod and Jeter seriously, and for a time, he was better than both, just not in 2004.
And yes. Nomar did get portrayed as bitte in the doc. What they didn't really mention is that Nomar was quickly regressing to be an ordinary player. He wasn't the same player after the wrist injury which made him press more in the field and at the plate. He took the rivalry with A-Rod and Jeter seriously, and for a time, he was better than both, just not in 2004.
I wish there had been more game clips (Game 6, Game 7, the WS) and less talk. Just because Millar can talk at length doesn't mean we have to listen to everything he has to say. Also: Was Mark Bellhorn even mentioned by name?
Perhaps the most infuriating revelation in the doc (at least to me) was Pedro saying that Grady told him he wanted him to go back out just to get Nick Johnson after which the pen would finish it. Nick fucking Johnson. He had gone 0 for 2 with a walk to that point in the game. He hit .189/.289/.308/.597 that post-season. This was the fearsome batter that Grady didn't trust his bullpen to face with a 3 run lead. Not Jeter and Williams and Matsui to follow. Nick Johnson.
Of course, Pedro gets Johnson out (in a seven pitch grind of an AB), looks to the dugout expecting to see Little coming to get him, and....nothing.
I think the only ones who might have held grudges against scabs were guys who were active during the strike. Who on the 2004 team were striking players in 1994-95? By my quick count, I think it's Schilling, Pedro, Wake, Timlin, Embree, and Manny. Only one of those guys strikes me as a possible grudge-holder.
I've always thought this. As great a story as 2004 was in and of itself coming right after 2003 made it literally one of the best sports stories ever.
What rivalry in any sport was as intense as Boston vs NY in 2003 and 2004. Just absolutely epic.
To win the way we did- after a devastating loss, after falling behind 3-0, to win the final two in their place. Every box was checked off I guess unless you wanted Papi to hit a go ahead HR on the 9th off Mo. that's the only box probably not checked off. But can't be greedy.
I watched episode 1 with my kid last night before he went to bed. Will finish tonight. Can't wait for comes next. Love Theo's honesty and the win percentage being listed to the left for 86 and 03 just to add to the realism of what happened.
It was a little trickier than that though. In 2003 he was a 6-WAR player, and he was huge in the ALCS too. We were on notice about the injury but he more or less overcame it. He *did* drop off in 2004 and was bad after, so in hindsight the Sox were right to wait out 2004 before making an offer. But when the trade talks were going on before the 04 season, he was basically Mookie Betts in the 2020 winter.
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You're kidding. Man. I haven't gotten to that yet and when I do... I can already feel the rage building inside me all over again.
I was 14 in 2003. Nomar was a legitimate God to me, he still is. It’s absolutely crazy to think how different his career should have been in Boston and it actually makes me sad sometimes. He was absolutely on fire in mid 2003 getting up to .343/.379/.591 on July 2 and it looked like he might even win the MVP as a leader in one of the best offensives of all-time and then he just totally friggin bottomed out and hit .258/.311/.454 until the end of the season and the rest is history It sucks how things ended with him
Gump was the bench coach in '99 when Pedro threw the 17K CG in Yankee Stadium. IIRC it was 120 pitches. I will always believe that Little truly thought he could just....do it again that night. Never mind the serious injuries Pedro had had in the meantime.
Grady Little is a baseball terrorist.
EDIT: in 1999, when Little was the Sox' bench coach, Pedro's starts in Sept. were 126, 120, 130, 120, and 124 pitches. I am convinced that Gump was thinking of that in 2003. Always behind the times.
Little admits in the doc that he paid no attention to pitch counts and analytics. My guess is he had no idea what Pedro's pitch count was either that night in 2003 or in any of those starts in 1999. But you're probably right that he fully believed 2003 Pedro could do what 1999 Pedro did. He still believes it.
All this PLUS they beat NL nemesis St.Louis in the World Series (1946, 1967), which wouldn't have happened in 2003.
I had seats in Monument Park during that game. I was with my dad, and I remember signaling with my hand that there were only 5 outs left til the Sox were in the WS (he still doesn't let me live this down). The Sox bullpen was behind Monument Park. I remember looking back at the bullpen during the meltdown and one of the guy's in his bullpen essentially just shrugged his shoulders--knowing they should be in the game but not sure why they weren't.
I was also out of Monument Park and exiting the stadium before Boone's HR landed. Truly the most devastating sporting event I've ever seen live.
2004 was a lot more enjoyable. I also was at the Varitek-ARod game, maybe the most enjoyable sporting event I've ever seen live.
Just to reiterate this point...
Yankees
SS Jeter (HOF)
3b ARod (obviously should be in the HOF but for PEDs...clearly an all-time great player, 3x MVP)
RF Sheffield (should be a HOFer but for PEDs, 509 career HR, 9x all-star)
LF Matsui (2x all-star)
CF Williams (5x all-star)
C Posada (5x all-star)
DH Sierra (4x all-star)
1b Clark (1x all-star)
2b Cairo (finally, a break in the lineup, but even he was pesky)
Red Sox
CF Damon (2x all-star)
SS Cabrera (no accolades but a solid player)
LF Ramirez (should be a HOFer but for PEDs, 555 career HR, 12x all-star)
DH Ortiz (HOF)
1b Millar (110 career ops+)
RF Nixon (112 career ops+)
C Varitek (3x all-star)
3b Mueller (2003 batting champ)
2b Bellhorn (17 hr, 82 rbi in 2004)
The part that killed me most of all was after Pedro gave up the double to Shemp to put runners on 2nd and 3rd, Grady waddled out to the mound and I was thinking "Ok; he HAS to take him out now".........and according to Pedro, Grady asked him "Can you get this guy?" meaning Posada...............Pedro said something to the effect of "I'm not going to say no there" especially where he hated Posada, so Grady leaves him in, Posada hits that blooper that scored the tying run.
I might not be remembering exactly the way things happened, but I'm pretty sure that's how it played out.
Regardless, you don't ask shit there; you go to you rested bullpen to put out the fire.
Just incredibly stupid managing on display.
I think Pedro's words were "you don't ask a warrior to give in". Grady knew how much pride Pedro had, knew what an alpha he was, and knew what he thought of Posada. So he knew exactly what Pedro's answer would be. It never should have gotten nearly that far along. He should've been out after the popup for the first out, just like he told him that would be the plan in between innings.
Just powered through all three episodes in one go this afternoon instead of doing work.
Kind of surprised they didn't show the Belhorn HR that was originally not a HR.
And I never really "knew" what Grady Little was like because I didn't watch post game conferences and stuff, but man, he comes off as wicked unlikeable in the first episode. Like just a grumpy, obstinant, unhappy man. Crazy thing was I remember the reporting about how the players all applauded when Grady showed up in Spring Training because of how much they hated Kerrigan.
And I'll just say that the day after, my mom, who is from China, had pretty much never seen a single inning of baseball until those playoffs and doesn't even know the fucking rules, called me and asked me why they left that "skinny guy" in. That's how obvious it was that he was out of gas. And this was like literally the first and only conversation I've ever had with my mother about baseball in my entire life other than she asking how happy I was a year later.
It was a great docuseries...I wish there were a couple of more people that showed up. And it's also sad as to what Schilling has become, because I freakin' loved him back in 2004...never realizing that the guy wasn't just an ass, but actually a lot worse.
Kind of surprised they didn't show the Belhorn HR that was originally not a HR.
And I never really "knew" what Grady Little was like because I didn't watch post game conferences and stuff, but man, he comes off as wicked unlikeable in the first episode. Like just a grumpy, obstinant, unhappy man. Crazy thing was I remember the reporting about how the players all applauded when Grady showed up in Spring Training because of how much they hated Kerrigan.
And I'll just say that the day after, my mom, who is from China, had pretty much never seen a single inning of baseball until those playoffs and doesn't even know the fucking rules, called me and asked me why they left that "skinny guy" in. That's how obvious it was that he was out of gas. And this was like literally the first and only conversation I've ever had with my mother about baseball in my entire life other than she asking how happy I was a year later.
It was a great docuseries...I wish there were a couple of more people that showed up. And it's also sad as to what Schilling has become, because I freakin' loved him back in 2004...never realizing that the guy wasn't just an ass, but actually a lot worse.
Injuries, man. There were whispers about him using steroids which made him more susceptible to injury. No idea what to do with that.
I'm 10 minutes into episode 1. Shank and Howard Bryant and Francesca can all go fuck themselves. They are experts on nothing. It's the same old shit over and over.
I almost threw something through my TV when Francesca said something like “you don’t expect anyone to get near that (Jeter) ball” when he dove into the stands from 10 feet in fair territory because ummmm that’s a routine popup for most competent defenders.
I’m on the Game 7 of the 2003 ALCS right now. And yeah, I have feelings.
- I hate that mustached rat fuck Yankee fan they’ve shown twice now. I hope he’s miserable wherever he is now.
- Watching the Yankee fans cheer in game 7, I wish they all had simultaneous strokes. There’s no way they’d ever get medical treatment in time.
- Love hearing Theo call the Yankees “these fuckers”
- Watching them celebrate, even knowing what happened next year, is still fucking nauseating.
- I laughed when Pedro threw The Gerbil to the ground. I laughed then, and I laughed now.
- Fuck off Tim McCarver.
- I dislike Grady Little even more now than I did then. He came off like a smug asshole who will never, ever admit he made a mistake. Dumb fuck Gump acted like he still believes he should be the manager.
- I hate that mustached rat fuck Yankee fan they’ve shown twice now. I hope he’s miserable wherever he is now.
- Watching the Yankee fans cheer in game 7, I wish they all had simultaneous strokes. There’s no way they’d ever get medical treatment in time.
- Love hearing Theo call the Yankees “these fuckers”
- Watching them celebrate, even knowing what happened next year, is still fucking nauseating.
- I laughed when Pedro threw The Gerbil to the ground. I laughed then, and I laughed now.
- Fuck off Tim McCarver.
- I dislike Grady Little even more now than I did then. He came off like a smug asshole who will never, ever admit he made a mistake. Dumb fuck Gump acted like he still believes he should be the manager.
