Is it time to talk about Coach Brad?

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Yeah. Here's the list of teams with multiple all-stars:

Nets (Durant / Harden / Irving)
Clippers (Kawhi / George)
Lakers (LeBron / AD)
Sixers (Embiid / Simmons)
Suns (Booker / Paul)
Jazz (Mitchell / Gobert)
Celtics (Tatum / Brown)

The Celtics are the clear outlier. Everyone else is a top contender and they combine for a 196-90 (.685) record. Meanwhile, the Celtics are sitting here at 23-25 (.479). The supporting casts can't explain away all of that delta.
If you compare the age of the teams, I would bet (a little, not a lot) the Cs are the youngest by far.

This feels like mostly a maturity issue for me. Reminds me of how Antoine referred to himself as a "veteran all-star" after being named to the team in his 2nd season. He then failed to make it for the subsequent 3 seasons. To put it simply, I don't think Tatum was ready to alpha dog a team. He looked very close to it in the bubble but he's regressed. I'm confident he'll eventually get there but there will be more growing pains than I was anticipating a few months ago.
I think a lot of it is just being young. JB and JT have worked their butts off to improve their own game. However, in the NBA, that's not enough when you reach superstar status (and contracts). JB and JT now have to learn how to be the best versions of themselves while at the same time making players around them better.

One thing I think we can all agree on - JB and JT do not have a track record of making others better. I think they are getting better at this. Some lineup continuity would help (i.e., the time JT put up a perfect lob pass for TL but too bad it was Wagner on the receiving end and it didn't have a chance).

Some of this up to Brad but also some of it is up to JT/JB.
 

joe dokes

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It seems that Tatum rarely passes unless it leads directly to an easy shot. And he doesn't even do that every time. Moving the ball just for the sake of moving the ball (to move the defense) is critical to an offense, and I dont think he does it enough. I dont know if its a fundamental shortcoming on the bigger picture of offense, a trust issue, or if its maturity.
I suppose Ainge has to decide whether the team is better off with a "Tatum-whisperer" as Coach, or if its just youth working itself out..
 

Jimbodandy

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I know it's tongue-in-cheek, but I think some variant of this is quite possible.

Tatum and Brown are still under contract for awhile, so any immediate negativity of missing the playoffs will be quickly forgotten if the offseason is good.

This feels to me a lot like last year's Sixers: tons of negativity, early flameout, situation looks awful. Then bring in a new GM, new coach, revamp the role players, stars are re-energized, and suddenly everything looks peachy.

I doubt Danny is gone, but I imagine everything else will be on the table.
I want to take this post to the Gardner Museum and hold hands.
 

bakahump

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Yea Brad is starting to lose Me. Not because he has necessarily done anything wrong.....but because you cant fire Tatum and Brown (or most of the roster).
Plus a big part of that is because This team SUCKS at passing. Like terrible.
JT has regressed on Ball handling.
JB is hurt and has regressed at almost everything except Offense. And even that has gone from a very successful beginning of the year "Jimmy Butler Mid Game" to Jack Up 3s.
The Team is Snakebit injury wise. Kemba, TL, JB, JT,TT,PP Has any other team lost its top 6 for significant portions of the season? Hell then add in RL and SO who injuries at least limit what the team can do on a nightly basis. Theis was probably traded cause he was the only guy who wouldnt be hurt.
Smart probably needs to go. Loved the guy but he needs to go an impose his will on some other team.
Someone mentioned that JT is immature. Totally agree. Hopefully he "Paul Pierces" here in next couple years.

And Yeah looking at the standings during the game last night I was like "Maybe they can get a top 7 pick".
And despite JT and JB have we havent had a game recently where I have said "we have the Best (young) player on the floor".

Ideally we somehow ditch Kemba and Smart this offseason, Resign Fornier and Keep Tatum believing his BFF is the target (maybe with Jaylen as the hook)
 

Jimbodandy

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It seems that Tatum rarely passes unless it leads directly to an easy shot. And he doesn't even do that every time. Moving the ball just for the sake of moving the ball (to move the defense) is critical to an offense, and I dont think he does it enough. I dont know if its a fundamental shortcoming on the bigger picture of offense, a trust issue, or if its maturity.
I suppose Ainge has to decide whether the team is better off with a "Tatum-whisperer" as Coach, or if its just youth working itself out..
Your last sentence here is particularly meaningful. Brad doesn't question shot selection. But he should be insisting on more ball movement. Tatum had one possession yesterday where even Scal and Mike were calling him out for holding the ball for 22 seconds and hucking a deep stepback. It's fucking embarrassing.
 

NickEsasky

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Your last sentence here is particularly meaningful. Brad doesn't question shot selection. But he should be insisting on more ball movement. Tatum had one possession yesterday where even Scal and Mike were calling him out for holding the ball for 22 seconds and hucking a deep stepback. It's fucking embarrassing.
Even worse he lost his dribble twice during those 22 seconds and remained unfazed and continued to pound the ball until he took a tough shot with the clock winding down.
 

bakahump

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(IDK What the hell I am talking about and am almost certainly wrong) But JT immaturity showed there. I would bet that someone said something before that possession and JT decided he is taking the shot no matter what. He was basically doing YMCA showboat scoring there.

Bird or Jordan TODAY based on Shit talking talent alone (which is the last thing to go) would probably hold him to single digits.
 

Jimbodandy

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Brown is responding to the coaching, at least on offense. Tatum is not. He's doing his own thing. Shades of Kyrie/Morris/Rozier walk year ball.
 

128

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Even worse he lost his dribble twice during those 22 seconds and remained unfazed and continued to pound the ball until he took a tough shot with the clock winding down.
That was one of the ugliest, most infuriating possessions I've ever seen.
 

ifmanis5

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Brad to UNC rumors are floating out there on Twitter. At this point I wouldn't be too mad that he was gone. Never thought It would come to that.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brad to UNC rumors are floating out there on Twitter. At this point I wouldn't be too mad that he was gone. Never thought It would come to that.
One of the few college jobs out there where it actually would make some sense to consider. Still doubt it but can't rule it out unless we see a specific denial.
 

128

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One of the few college jobs out there where it actually would make some sense to consider. Still doubt it but can't rule it out unless we see a specific denial.
Not sure it would be a bad outcome for any of the three parties, assuming, of course, that Danny hired a capable replacement.
 

bakahump

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Let Brad walk Now for Recruiting and let one of the Assistants be interim?
Whats Carlisles Status?
 

128

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Let Brad walk Now for Recruiting and let one of the Assistants be interim?
Whats Carlisles Status?
I'm guessing it would be tough to tear Carlisle away from Luka, but he'd be my No. 1 target. He's mellowed some over the years, but there's no way the inmates would be running the asylum on his watch.
 

Deathofthebambino

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That was one of the ugliest, most infuriating possessions I've ever seen.
Pretty sure he followed that possession up with a quick 3 early in the shot clock on the very next possession. Miss.

To me, that was almost just as infuriating, after what he did on the prior trip. That's the point in time when a Coach who has the power to control their players, benches a player so they can think about it for a bit.
 

Cellar-Door

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Let Brad walk Now for Recruiting and let one of the Assistants be interim?
Whats Carlisles Status?
See this is the issue.... Brad Stevens is a really good NBA coach. It's telling that your next step is.. what is one of the 3-5 best coaches in the league doing.

Maybe eventually you move on from Stevens because you can't move on from Tatum and they have an issue, but the problem with jumping off Brad now is that you'll almost certainly replace him with a worse coach, and you don't know if that makes you a worse team, because until this year Brad has done a really good job of getting performance out of young and fringe guys.
 

lovegtm

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See this is the issue.... Brad Stevens is a really good NBA coach. It's telling that your next step is.. what is one of the 3-5 best coaches in the league doing.

Maybe eventually you move on from Stevens because you can't move on from Tatum and they have an issue, but the problem with jumping off Brad now is that you'll almost certainly replace him with a worse coach, and you don't know if that makes you a worse team, because until this year Brad has done a really good job of getting performance out of young and fringe guys.
I’m with you wrt Stevens being a very good NBA coach.

The problem is that if you lose your stars mentally, all the Xs and Os and marginal stuff just doesn’t matter at all.

Pop is an all-timer, but the correct move for the Spurs, if they knew they could get Kawhii to stay by doing so, would have been to snap-fire him.

If Tatum is stalling because he has tuned Brad out, you fire Brad. If you get a worse coach but Tatum resumes the trajectory he was on, it’s easily worth it.
 

mauf

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Yeah. Here's the list of teams with multiple all-stars:

Nets (Durant / Harden / Irving)
Clippers (Kawhi / George)
Lakers (LeBron / AD)
Sixers (Embiid / Simmons)
Suns (Booker / Paul)
Jazz (Mitchell / Gobert)
Celtics (Tatum / Brown)

The Celtics are the clear outlier. Everyone else is a top contender and they combine for a 196-90 (.685) record. Meanwhile, the Celtics are sitting here at 23-25 (.479). The supporting casts can't explain away all of that delta.
Brown is worse than every player on that list except possibly Kyrie, who is his team’s third-best player. And Tatum shouldn’t have been an All-Star this year; he only made it because decisions were made at an unusually early point in the season. So we’re nowhere close to these other teams even before you consider we’ve gotten little from the guys who were supposed to be our 3rd and 4th best players.

We’re talking about a team that has had 3 of its top 4 players underachieve pretty dramatically, with 2 of those 3 traceable to injury or illness. Why do we think they should be materially better than .500, and that it’s the coach’s fault that they aren’t?

If they are still at this point this time next year, then yes, all options should be on the table, including a new coach. But a second-tier team with below-average luck is going to be around .500; that’s just how it goes.
 

Cellar-Door

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I’m with you wrt Stevens being a very good NBA coach.

The problem is that if you lose your stars mentally, all the Xs and Os and marginal stuff just doesn’t matter at all.

Pop is an all-timer, but the correct move for the Spurs, if they knew they could get Kawhii to stay by doing so, would have been to snap-fire him.

If Tatum is stalling because he has tuned Brad out, you fire Brad. If you get a worse coach but Tatum resumes the trajectory he was on, it’s easily worth it.
Sure, I get that, I acknowledge it in the post, but also, one weird half season isn't when you make that decision, especially when your star hasn't even started his new extension yet.
You need to get a handle on whether the coach/player dynamic is untenable, and also, whether you think the player is going to have a better dynamic with a new coach.... LeBron you get him whatever coach he wants.... Jayson Tatum.... maybe not. Maybe you decide Tatum is going to be a problem with any coach, and you make the big deal instead. To be clear, I don't think you choose a coach over a player, but I do think some teams have made the mistake of thinking changing the coach would change the player, and ended up with a few years of subpar star effort and then trading off for cheap, when the issue wasn't the coach, it was who the player was.
 

BigSoxFan

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Brown is worse than every player on that list except possibly Kyrie, who is his team’s third-best player. And Tatum shouldn’t have been an All-Star this year; he only made it because decisions were made at an unusually early point in the season. So we’re nowhere close to these other teams even before you consider we’ve gotten little from the guys who were supposed to be our 3rd and 4th best players.

We’re talking about a team that has had 3 of its top 4 players underachieve pretty dramatically, with 2 of those 3 traceable to injury or illness. Why do we think they should be materially better than .500, and that it’s the coach’s fault that they aren’t?

If they are still at this point this time next year, then yes, all options should be on the table, including a new coach. But a second-tier team with below-average luck is going to be around .500; that’s just how it goes.
I never said they should be where those other teams are nor did I say that it's all Brad's fault. The only change from last year where they went 48-24 and had to deal with an extended Kemba absence is the loss of Hayward and he was obviously in and out of the lineup himself. I'm sorry but I don't buy any of these arguments. They should not be a .500 team right now. The Memphis Grizzlies have a worse roster, play in a tougher conference, and have been without Jaren Jackson Jr. all season and they have a better record than these Celtics.

Jaylen was playing at an incredibly high level to start the season. Tatum was fine before COVID seemingly de-railed him. People on this board were predicting a tough start but nobody was expecting this. Both Kemba and Tristan have had stretches of effective play. Marcus has been disappointing and got hurt. They got an unexpected boost from PP when Kemba was out. Time Lord has emerged. None of this adds up to 23-25. I would say they're about 4-5 wins away from where they should be.
 

Deathofthebambino

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I never said they should be where those other teams are nor did I say that it's all Brad's fault. The only change from last year where they went 48-24 and had to deal with an extended Kemba absence is the loss of Hayward and he was obviously in and out of the lineup himself. I'm sorry but I don't buy any of these arguments. They should not be a .500 team right now. The Memphis Grizzlies have a worse roster, play in a tougher conference, and have been without Jaren Jackson Jr. all season and they have a better record than these Celtics.
I wouldn't even just focus on the standings.

Of the current lottery teams (teams behind the C's in the standings), they've lost twice to Detroit, once to Cleveland, once to Washington, twice to New Orleans, twice to Sacramento and once to Memphis. They are a combined 5-9 against those teams.

They beat Indiana a couple times, and they've got Houston and Minnesota coming up on their schedule, so I guess one can hope, but would anyone be comfortable laying 10 tomorrow night against Houston? I wouldn't.
 

BigSoxFan

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I wouldn't even just focus on the standings.

Of the current lottery teams (teams behind the C's in the standings), they've lost twice to Detroit, once to Cleveland, once to Washington, twice to New Orleans, twice to Sacramento and once to Memphis. They are a combined 5-9 against those teams.

They beat Indiana a couple times, and they've got Houston and Minnesota coming up on their schedule, so I guess one can hope, but would anyone be comfortable laying 10 tomorrow night against Houston? I wouldn't.
Yup. They've gotten pummeled by some truly awful teams. We can all haggle on what we think a reasonable record for this team should be but the bottom line is that we're 23-25 and are getting punked by terrible teams where we have both Tatum and Brown. Truth be told, this team hasn't faced that much adversity. Jaylen has missed a few games and may be banged up a bit (who isn't by now)? Tatum got COVID so that set him back but he's only missed 6 games all year. Kemba actually came back sooner than expected and is getting periodic rest. Smart missed about a month but he was playing poorly before that injury anyways.

End of the day, as many have pointed out, the defensive effort has been putrid all season long. Something is just not clicking with this team, and there are clearly some personnel holes, but this ain't a 23-25 team, especially with only 10 combined missed games from Tatum/Brown out of 96. There is a general malaise that extends far beyond the surface and I don't think anyone really knows why. Even people like Gorman are being far more critical of this team.
 

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It is a mug's game to analyze attitude of a player via televised games, but it seems like Tatum is miserable out there. Maybe he feels post-Covid lousy. Maybe he feels the pressure of being the alpha dog on a team that gets its ass cut every other game. But a talented 23-year-old NBA all-star millionaire should not take to the court looking like he's trudging down a mine shaft for eight hours of black lung exposure in some hellish Appalachian coalfield.

Tatum's outside game has devolved into the contested three and that damn Kobe fade, and his work around the basket is characterized by him pounding the ball, trying to draw contact, and barking at the refs over no-calls. And the refs seem fed up with his act, which reads as petulance, not intensity. Worst of all, a bad offensive sequence often leads into Tatum jogging back on defense, scowling and griping all the way.

And I don't know if Brad can reach him.

Even the greats (and I think Brad is a great coach) get tuned out by HOF players. Bird shanked Bill Fitch (and much later Larry admitted that Fitch was demanding but fair, and Larry didn't want to be told what to do). Paul Westhead pissed off young Magic, and that was that. Hell, eight months ago Doc somehow got sideways with Kawhi -- and I think Doc is a top-shelf NBA coach when he's in the right situation.

We've talked a lot about the technical parts of coaching -- whether Brad should run more motion, or try zones more often, but as lovegtm points out, that stuff doesn't really matter if your best players check out. And Tatum....well, he may not be checked out (there are bursts of energy there), but he doesn't seem fully checked in.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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It is a mug's game to analyze attitude of a player via televised games, but it seems like Tatum is miserable out there. Maybe he feels post-Covid lousy. Maybe he feels the pressure of being the alpha dog on a team that gets its ass cut every other game. But a talented 23-year-old NBA all-star millionaire should not take to the court looking like he's trudging down a mine shaft for eight hours of black lung exposure in some hellish Appalachian coalfield.
I've said this before but the core has played a lot of basketball over the past almost two years (especially with the World Cup) and a lot of what you say - which rings true - sounds like a little bit of burn out.

There's no way this team should be under .500. Maybe at some point it gets late early.
 

128

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It is a mug's game to analyze attitude of a player via televised games, but it seems like Tatum is miserable out there. Maybe he feels post-Covid lousy. Maybe he feels the pressure of being the alpha dog on a team that gets its ass cut every other game. But a talented 23-year-old NBA all-star millionaire should not take to the court looking like he's trudging down a mine shaft for eight hours of black lung exposure in some hellish Appalachian coalfield.

Tatum's outside game has devolved into the contested three and that damn Kobe fade, and his work around the basket is characterized by him pounding the ball, trying to draw contact, and barking at the refs over no-calls. And the refs seem fed up with his act, which reads as petulance, not intensity. Worst of all, a bad offensive sequence often leads into Tatum jogging back on defense, scowling and griping all the way.

And I don't know if Brad can reach him.

Even the greats (and I think Brad is a great coach) get tuned out by HOF players. Bird shanked Bill Fitch (and much later Larry admitted that Fitch was demanding but fair, and Larry didn't want to be told what to do). Paul Westhead pissed off young Magic, and that was that. Hell, eight months ago Doc somehow got sideways with Kawhi -- and I think Doc is a top-shelf NBA coach when he's in the right situation.

We've talked a lot about the technical parts of coaching -- whether Brad should run more motion, or try zones more often, but as lovegtm points out, that stuff doesn't really matter if your best players check out. And Tatum....well, he may not be checked out (there are bursts of energy there), but he doesn't seem fully checked in.
Spot on. Tatum never has been the most fiery of players on the court, but his body language and facial expressions this season are often those a guy who appears to wish he were elsewhere.

For all of Jaylen's shortcomings, I never get the sense that he's miserable on the court.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Yes, we do. When will people open their eyes and see this? We are a 2 player team with very little hope of getting better if we stay as is.
This is where I’ve been all season. The list of other all-star duos include exactly zero where both players are under 25 years old. We are asking two kids to take an underwhelming supporting cast and overcome all the adversities that come with leading them.....especially when half of them are underwhelming veterans.

I don’t blame the players.....they are what they are. I don’t blame Brad.....he’s been put in another crappy position with personnel that doesn’t fit. As I did two years ago I blame this year on Ainge’s poor roster construction which he readily admits is the issue himself.
 

RetractableRoof

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Spot on. Tatum never has been the most fiery of players on the court, but his body language and facial expressions this season are often those a guy who appears to wish he were elsewhere.

For all of Jaylen's shortcomings, I never get the sense that he's miserable on the court.
Miserable no... frustrated, yes. And sometimes it's at Tatum, almost an eye roll at the hero ball, then a more resigned, I'll take my turn now.

---------
Some random thoughts:

A bad comp perhaps... but there was a point when David Ortiz was whining about every single call at the plate, and then barking at the umpires, just riding them from the dugout, etc. If I recall correctly, someone in the dugout managed to get the message across that he was peeing in the bathwater for the rest of the team. His approach was making it harder for everyone, because a pissed off umpire isn't going to give any other Sox player a borderline call either. He seemed to lighten up on that stuff, and transitioned into something else. I don't know who got through to him (or what group). But the Celtics need that kind of intervention with Tatum, with regard to the refs and the involvement of his teammates. I don't know if they need a veteran Horford type back on the seen, or if Haywire and he didn't click (or maybe Gordon never thought that was his role/place)... but someone that Tatum trusts professionally has to get through to him (IMO). I fear that the Kyrie school of leadership, combined with whatever messages he gets at the AllStar game social circle are reinforcing the "you have to get yours to get paid" type effort I feel like we are getting. (That could just be bad armchair psychology, so...).

It seems to me that Jaylen is playing a bit subdued - not loafing in any way, but missing a smidge of his previous 'tenacity'. He is a very thoughtful man. I've thought that his involvement with social issues was a wonderfully large part of his identity. I wonder if the demands of covid, and the other things that he must focus on outside the court have affected him mentally (no criticism at all either way to him or any teammate struggling with the covid environment). He was the one that spoke up about the bubble and said if the players weren't going to play, how were they going to use the 'down time'? I wonder if covid, or the ongoing conflict in our country has sapped him of some of his on court excitement as he worries about more important issues. Again, more armchair psychology... and I'm as bad at that as reading defensive responsibilities... but it's a thought. I respect everything he does off the court, it must be hard to leave it in the locker room. To be clear, if his previous on court tenacity was a 9, I feel like he's just under it, maybe a 7.5-8, just a little bit different. Maybe tenacity is the wrong word as well... but it'll suffice.

Brad's got a tough task in front of him. He's done things that many of us have an issue with - but that's true of any coach. But he knows that somethings not right. Ainge knows the players are freelancing in a negative way. He clearly doesn't have the practice time to use to make large scale changes. He's dealing with a constantly changing environment with health/covid (which all coaches are). It seems in many ways his hands are tied. But it is his job to convert this underachieving team into something that performs consistently... and I don't see it happening. That as they say is why coaches get the big bucks... and get fired first.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Isn’t all this talk about Tatum similar to what these threads read when Pierce was in his mid to late 20’s playing with a crappy supporting cast too? The ISO’s, body language, etc. It seems almost identical and funny how these criticisms ended once Jiri Welsch and Mark Blount himself were replaced by Ray Allen and KG.

In the game thread last night people were asking why Tatum couldn’t do in Boston what Doncic is doing in Dallas with a similar supporting cast. For one, Dallas was a game over .500 about 10 days ago so it wasn’t like Doncic was carrying them to a 2-seed behind Utah and Two......maybe for Doncic it is as simple as him being a much better player than Tatum.
 
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RetractableRoof

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Isn’t all this talk about Tatum similar to what these threads read when Pierce was in his mid to late 20’s playing with a crappy supporting cast too? The ISO’s, body language, etc. It seems almost identical and funny how these criticisms ended once Jiri Welsch and Mark Blount himself were replaced by Ray Allen and KG.

In the game thread last night people were asking why Tatum couldn’t do in Boston what Doncic is doing in Dallas with a similar supporting cast. For one, Dallas was a game over .500 about 10 days ago so it wasn’t like Doncic was carrying them to a 2-seed behind Utah and Two......maybe for Doncic it is as simple as him being a much better player than Tatum.
Fair parallel, but don't forget, they had their famous powwow between the 3 of them of sacrificing for the team, and then Doc took the team to Italy (?) for the Ubuntu summit, and the team played like a unit from almost minute one.

So Pierce got a better cast (your point I think) but it also came with the selflessness/growth as a player we all want from Tatum. Garnett also willed/demanded from the team in a way Pierce didn't seem to have - and he had a large reputation in the league to back that demand up with. So your point is valid - but their arrival brought with them more than talent - it brought a change in style of play/expectations, fair?
 

HomeRunBaker

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Fair parallel, but don't forget, they had their famous powwow between the 3 of them of sacrificing for the team, and then Doc took the team to Italy (?) for the Ubuntu summit, and the team played like a unit from almost minute one.

So Pierce got a better cast (your point I think) but it also came with the selflessness/growth as a player we all want from Tatum. Garnett also willed/demanded from the team in a way Pierce didn't seem to have - and he had a large reputation in the league to back that demand up with. So your point is valid - but their arrival brought with them more than talent - it brought a change in style of play/expectations, fair?
Yes, extremely fair. Look around the league.......every contender has legitimate veteran superstars paired with another star(s). We aren’t remotely close to being on that level.

We all want the same selflessness/growth out of Tatum as we saw in Pierce but let’s not forget that Pierce was 30 years old and had been in the league for a decade......Tatum turned 23 last month and is in his 4th year. (For another thread but Jaylen is as important if not more so and he’s 24)

It’s like family is coming over for Easter dinner on Sunday at 4pm yet everyone is sitting at the table with their forks at 2:30 screaming that they are starving. Yeah, we are all starving for dinner......but the ham ain’t done and your cousin didn’t bring the sides yet!
 

RetractableRoof

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Yes, extremely fair. Look around the league.......every contender has legitimate veteran superstars paired with another star(s). We aren’t remotely close to being on that level.

We all want the same selflessness/growth out of Tatum as we saw in Pierce but let’s not forget that Pierce was 30 years old and had been in the league for a decade......Tatum turned 23 last month and is in his 4th year. (For another thread but Jaylen is as important if not more so and he’s 24)

It’s like family is coming over for Easter dinner on Sunday at 4pm yet everyone is sitting at the table with their forks at 2:30 screaming that they are starving. Yeah, we are all starving for dinner......but the ham ain’t done and your cousin didn’t bring the sides yet!
I don't like this analogy... I'm locked into keto... lmao

I'm not absent patience, or recognition that growth takes time. I just don't want to waste prime athletic years while Tatum wanders the desert looking for enlightenment. I want a veteran presence or teammate to demand/will him to improve in ways that benefit the team, not the stat sheet. Haywire apparently wasn't it (maybe not enough gravitas, or maybe was waiting for his performance to justify his words and then got hurt out of the gate?), Kemba seems too laid back or doesn't have a 'demanding bone' in his body. Smart can't do it because while he has the will and maybe the personality he doesn't have the resume or success for someone to defer to. I thought maybe TT would bring a bit of that to the table having been around LeBron, but if those conversations have happened, we haven't seen fruit.

To be fair to my recollection, I didn't get the impression that Garnett (or Allen) came in and said we need to do X to win - because they hadn't won at the NBA level. I think they came in and said, we've all busted our buts on a mostly solo journey to get to the top and we are all tired of losing/failing to get there. So we are collectively going to do whatever it takes to support each other in order to not fail. It was Doc who provided the approach, leveraging what each brought to the table - and they had the desire/humility to buy in. Or at least that is the narrative, right? So where is Tatum's respected voice, his peer to say - the path you are on will not lead to a title - let's all commit to Brad's scheme/approach that will give us the best chance at that title - even if it isn't today. That's where Ainge has failed the young kids IMO - they need that voice. I thought Morris (previously) might have provided some of it - but I guess not. Or if he did, it was offset by the toxicity of the team.

Edit: I wonder if Ainge has considered bringing Garnett and Pierce in to sit around and tell some stories of the glory days... with an emphasis on the futility of focusing on individual development and the rewards of learning to trust teammates (RL, AN, PP, etc) that might not deliver immediately, but might grow themselves into the supporting cast the lead dogs need. I don't believe Garnett's gravitas has faded, nor Pierce's. Part of the legacy of the Cs is that those sorts of folks are available in the family. Maybe covid has limited that option? I would suspect that kind of a conversation needs to happen in person, in a very comfortable environment to get the most value. Just thinking aloud... Danny are you reading?? lmao
 
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128

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Miserable no... frustrated, yes. And sometimes it's at Tatum, almost an eye roll at the hero ball, then a more resigned, I'll take my turn now.

---------
Some random thoughts:

A bad comp perhaps... but there was a point when David Ortiz was whining about every single call at the plate, and then barking at the umpires, just riding them from the dugout, etc. If I recall correctly, someone in the dugout managed to get the message across that he was peeing in the bathwater for the rest of the team. His approach was making it harder for everyone, because a pissed off umpire isn't going to give any other Sox player a borderline call either. He seemed to lighten up on that stuff, and transitioned into something else. I don't know who got through to him (or what group). But the Celtics need that kind of intervention with Tatum, with regard to the refs and the involvement of his teammates. I don't know if they need a veteran Horford type back on the seen, or if Haywire and he didn't click (or maybe Gordon never thought that was his role/place)... but someone that Tatum trusts professionally has to get through to him (IMO). I fear that the Kyrie school of leadership, combined with whatever messages he gets at the AllStar game social circle are reinforcing the "you have to get yours to get paid" type effort I feel like we are getting. (That could just be bad armchair psychology, so...).

It seems to me that Jaylen is playing a bit subdued - not loafing in any way, but missing a smidge of his previous 'tenacity'. He is a very thoughtful man. I've thought that his involvement with social issues was a wonderfully large part of his identity. I wonder if the demands of covid, and the other things that he must focus on outside the court have affected him mentally (no criticism at all either way to him or any teammate struggling with the covid environment). He was the one that spoke up about the bubble and said if the players weren't going to play, how were they going to use the 'down time'? I wonder if covid, or the ongoing conflict in our country has sapped him of some of his on court excitement as he worries about more important issues. Again, more armchair psychology... and I'm as bad at that as reading defensive responsibilities... but it's a thought. I respect everything he does off the court, it must be hard to leave it in the locker room. To be clear, if his previous on court tenacity was a 9, I feel like he's just under it, maybe a 7.5-8, just a little bit different. Maybe tenacity is the wrong word as well... but it'll suffice.

Brad's got a tough task in front of him. He's done things that many of us have an issue with - but that's true of any coach. But he knows that somethings not right. Ainge knows the players are freelancing in a negative way. He clearly doesn't have the practice time to use to make large scale changes. He's dealing with a constantly changing environment with health/covid (which all coaches are). It seems in many ways his hands are tied. But it is his job to convert this underachieving team into something that performs consistently... and I don't see it happening. That as they say is why coaches get the big bucks... and get fired first.
I assume the team meets, virtually or in person, to break down film from the previous night's game. Is there another player with enough standing on the team to call out Tatum for the ridiculous possession we've all been talking about? KG would have been that guy a decade ago, but I doubt there's anyone like that now, which is part of the problem.
 

lexrageorge

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Yes, extremely fair. Look around the league.......every contender has legitimate veteran superstars paired with another star(s). We aren’t remotely close to being on that level.

We all want the same selflessness/growth out of Tatum as we saw in Pierce but let’s not forget that Pierce was 30 years old and had been in the league for a decade......Tatum turned 23 last month and is in his 4th year. (For another thread but Jaylen is as important if not more so and he’s 24)

It’s like family is coming over for Easter dinner on Sunday at 4pm yet everyone is sitting at the table with their forks at 2:30 screaming that they are starving. Yeah, we are all starving for dinner......but the ham ain’t done and your cousin didn’t bring the sides yet!
I agree that development of young players is not always linear. Pierce's famous quote from the season before KG arrived: "I'm a great player on a bad team". That was during the regular season. And don't forget the bandage fiasco; Pierce was 27 at the time.

Ray Allen had somewhat of a reputation as being a selfish player in his early days. He was traded once for an expired Gary Payton on an expiring contract and again for a bunch of flotsam and jetsam and the #5 pick in a 2-player draft.

I do think Ainge hoped that Kemba would be that veteran presence, and Smart could be the team leader in the locker room. Hasn't worked out that way at all, and both really do need to be jettisoned this offseason.
 

Auger34

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As he should be publicly. Clearly, Brad hasn't done a good job this year but none of us would be surprised with a 55 win effort next year if the right moves are mad from a personnel standpoint. On that front, for the first time ever, I'm thinking Jaylen and/or Smart won't be completely off limits this year. Highly doubt Jaylen gets moved unless Danny feels he needs to go hard after Beal to keep Tatum happy but I think Smart is fair game.
I don’t think there’s anyway Jaylen or Jayson get traded.

However, I now think it’s actually likely that Smart gets traded. I think Kemba is gone too (if they can find a trade partner who’s not demanding too much to be stapled to him).

I’d guess Fournier is brought back and they add a veteran leader or two....

If Beal demands a trade, hopefully we are on his (incredibly) short list and we can get him without giving up Jaylen.
 

pjheff

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So where is Tatum's respected voice, his peer to say - the path you are on will not lead to a title - let's all commit to Brad's scheme/approach that will give us the best chance at that title
Where do you think that winning a title ranks on Tatum’s list of priorities right now? He’s 23 years old and still trying to establish himself as a player in this league. It seemed like he received a lot of individual validation by being named an All-Star last season and that earning a supermax contract through being All-NBA is his primary motivation this year. Everyone loves winning — as Nuke Laloosh reminds us, it’s like . . . better than losing — but then Nuke was focused on his Porsche with a quadraphonic Blaupunkt. Teams rarely win titles when their best players and leading players are young players like Nuke Laloosh or Jayson Tatum.
 

BigSoxFan

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I don’t think there’s anyway Jaylen or Jayson get traded.

However, I now think it’s actually likely that Smart gets traded. I think Kemba is gone too (if they can find a trade partner who’s not demanding too much to be stapled to him).

I’d guess Fournier is brought back and they add a veteran leader or two....

If Beal demands a trade, hopefully we are on his (incredibly) short list and we can get him without giving up Jaylen.
Zero chance to get Beal without Jaylen. I don’t think Jaylen gets dealt but I’m not putting that at 0% either. More like 0.1%. Clearly, Tatum isn’t going anywhere but if Ainge needs to appease him (and I doubt he does at this point), Beal is the guy to do it, IMO.

More than likely, Ainge will be looking at turning Smart, TT, Kemba, etc. into...something. I just don’t know what nor how successful he’ll be. I think people hoping for some massive reconstruction this summer are going to be disappointed. There’s only so much he can do without any real assets at his disposal.
 

HomeRunBaker

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I don’t think there’s anyway Jaylen or Jayson get traded.

However, I now think it’s actually likely that Smart gets traded. I think Kemba is gone too (if they can find a trade partner who’s not demanding too much to be stapled to him).

I’d guess Fournier is brought back and they add a veteran leader or two....

If Beal demands a trade, hopefully we are on his (incredibly) short list and we can get him without giving up Jaylen.
The deals that Ainge made at the deadline indicate to me that he’s essentially punting on this year while positioning himself for the summer while looking to move Smart and Kemba. RecognIzing his lack of trade assets he’s likely banking on offering Fournier greater than his market value to retain him as the starting 2 while using Smart as trade bait, along with Kemba, for a defensive-minded 1 or a starting/rotation 4. If you slide Fournier into Smsrts role it’s essential to move Kemba as that backcourt could be historically bad defensively.

So who are the replacement 1’s out there? I’m guessing it will be someone with flaws. It is difficult these days to acquire a quality 1 via trade unlike years ago. In the past if a team had a young 1 taking minutes from the established starter then one of them would be available......nowadays they simply play together so teams aren’t moving talent for fit nearly as much.
 
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Cesar Crespo

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Fair parallel, but don't forget, they had their famous powwow between the 3 of them of sacrificing for the team, and then Doc took the team to Italy (?) for the Ubuntu summit, and the team played like a unit from almost minute one.

So Pierce got a better cast (your point I think) but it also came with the selflessness/growth as a player we all want from Tatum. Garnett also willed/demanded from the team in a way Pierce didn't seem to have - and he had a large reputation in the league to back that demand up with. So your point is valid - but their arrival brought with them more than talent - it brought a change in style of play/expectations, fair?
or Pierce wasn't an Alpha and needed to be 2nd banana. Maybe Tatum isn't an Alpha and needs his KG.
 

Cesar Crespo

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The deals that Ainge made at the deadline indicate to me that he’s essentially punting on this year while positioning himself for the summer while looking to move Smart and Kemba. RecognIzing his lack of trade assets he’s likely banking on offering Fournier greater than his market value to retain him as the starting 2 while using Smart as trade bait, along with Kemba, for a defensive-minded 1 or a starting/rotation 4. If you slide Fournier into Smsrts role it’s essential to move Kemba as that backcourt could be historically bad defensively.

So who are the replacement 1’s out there? I’m guessing it will be someone with flaws. It is difficult these days to acquire a quality 1 via trade unlike years ago. In the past if a team had a young 1 taking minutes from the established starter then one of them would be available......nowadays they simply play together so teams aren’t moving talent for fit nearly as much.
Lonzo Ball.
 

Strike4

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The deals that Ainge made at the deadline indicate to me that he’s essentially punting on this year while positioning himself for the summer while looking to move Smart and Kemba. RecognIzing his lack of trade assets he’s likely banking on offering Fournier greater than his market value to retain him as the starting 2 while using Smart as trade bait, along with Kemba, for a defensive-minded 1 or a starting/rotation 4. If you slide Fournier into Smsrts role it’s essential to move Kemba as that backcourt could be historically bad defensively.
I posted something to this effect in the Dallas gamethread. Once Romeo gets going after missing so much time, it will be interesting to see how much he plays. My guess is that he sees more than we're anticipating.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I posted something to this effect in the Dallas gamethread. Once Romeo gets going after missing so much time, it will be interesting to see how much he plays. My guess is that he sees more than we're anticipating.
I doubt we see him play at even close to 100% this year. At this point, I'm beginning to wonder if we even see him at all.
 

slamminsammya

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Zero chance to get Beal without Jaylen. I don’t think Jaylen gets dealt but I’m not putting that at 0% either. More like 0.1%. Clearly, Tatum isn’t going anywhere but if Ainge needs to appease him (and I doubt he does at this point), Beal is the guy to do it, IMO.

More than likely, Ainge will be looking at turning Smart, TT, Kemba, etc. into...something. I just don’t know what nor how successful he’ll be. I think people hoping for some massive reconstruction this summer are going to be disappointed. There’s only so much he can do without any real assets at his disposal.
I don't think this is true in a scenario where Beal is demanding a trade.
 

Auger34

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I posted something to this effect in the Dallas gamethread. Once Romeo gets going after missing so much time, it will be interesting to see how much he plays. My guess is that he sees more than we're anticipating.
I don’t know....I think that’s logical but Stevens has shown no inclination to play Nesmith. I hope you’re right but if I had to put money on it, I’d say he plays just about what everyone’s expecting
 

BigSoxFan

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I don't think this is true in a scenario where Beal is demanding a trade.
I wasn’t assuming he is demanding a trade. Seems like he’s had every opportunity to do so and hasn’t. Maybe that changes this offseason but seems doubtful. If he does the unlikely “trade me to Boston to play with my BFF” thing, then maybe a TL/Smart/Nesmith/pick bonanza pu pu platter gets it done.
 

slamminsammya

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I wasn’t assuming he is demanding a trade. Seems like he’s had every opportunity to do so and hasn’t. Maybe that changes this offseason but seems doubtful. If he does the unlikely “trade me to Boston to play with my BFF” thing, then maybe a TL/Smart/Nesmith/pick bonanza pu pu platter gets it done.
Uh, is it unlikely? That sort of thing happens all the time now. Its definitely not 0%.
 

BigSoxFan

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Uh, is it unlikely? That sort of thing happens all the time now. Its definitely not 0%.
Uh, yes it is unlikely that Beal forces a trade to Boston this summer. Unlikely doesn’t mean impossible so I’m not really sure what you’re contesting here.