Is shooting a developed skill or an innate talent?

Cellar-Door

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reggiecleveland said:
 
Guys that are good shooters can add range, etc. But a weak college shooter will have trouble becoming a shooter.
 
Also the Tony Allen comparisons do this kid a disservice. He can really handle the ball and is a smart offensive player. Tony is a great athlete with a great motor, and a tough defender, but little offensive instinct. Despite my misgivings about his shooting this kid should be a much, much better offensive player than TA.
Do you have any data to back that up? The general consensus seems to be that "most" players can improve their shooting over time.
Of course the new thing you see with Goldsberry's use of sportsvue, is that where you take your shots means a lot. Rondo for example has a stretch(the elbows and FT line to top of the key) where he is one of the best shooters in the NBA.
http://grantland.com/the-triangle/courtvision-everything-you-think-you-know-about-rondos-shooting-is-wrong/
Rondo is a nice example of a guy who improved his midrange game significantly.
 

reggiecleveland

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Rondo is still a lousy outside shooter. If Rondo is exactly what I am talking about. By all reports he has worked hard at his shooting, but he has not improved to the point you never really want him to shoot a three. Rondo's rep as a shooter is so bad I have never seen a guy left so wide open. Doe the data record the level of pressure on shots?
 
Also you ask me for data, while using "general consensus".
 
You think Smart didn't work his ass off on his shot knowing it could be worth tens of millions to him? Do you think WMB just doesn't want to walk? You can only improve a skill set so far.
 
I am on my phone, so I will not look for it, but the stats I have seen, as well as my observations as coach, player, fan, that some players make significant improvement, or don't really improve much at all. It becomes am=lmosy binary, with less than half making a huge jump, while most stay the same. If Smart is one of the minority group that makes a big jump he is an all star.
 
At any rate Smart will be a good player to have with scorers.
 

Cellar-Door

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reggiecleveland said:
Rondo is still a lousy outside shooter. If Rondo is exactly what I am talking about. By all reports he has worked hard at his shooting, but he has not improved to the point you never really want him to shoot a three. Rondo's rep as a shooter is so bad I have never seen a guy left so wide open. Doe the data record the level of pressure on shots?
 
Also you ask me for data, while using "general consensus".
 
You think Smart didn't work his ass off on his shot knowing it could be worth tens of millions to him? Do you think WMB just doesn't want to walk? You can only improve a skill set so far.
 
I am on my phone, so I will not look for it, but the stats I have seen, as well as my observations as coach, player, fan, that some players make significant improvement, or don't really improve much at all. It becomes am=lmosy binary, with less than half making a huge jump, while most stay the same. If Smart is one of the minority group that makes a big jump he is an all star.
 
At any rate Smart will be a good player to have with scorers.
I'm asking for data because you made an assertion which is contrary to what most scouts and other NBA experts say. I can't find any league wide studies so I was wondering if you were basing that on data I hadn't seen or just stating an opinion as fact.
 
The article actually notes that Rondo gets more uncontested jumpers because defenders cut under screens for fear of his driving. That should be what happens with Smart as well. As for 3s. Range is incredibly overrated in many ways. Dwyane Wade as mentioned upthread (and in the draft thread) has never been able to shoot 3s, instead he focused on taking few threes and excelling in the mid-range and getting to the hoop. Smart isn't a spot up shooter any more than Wade is, and no coach would ever use him in the offense in a way that made him one. He should be using the pick and roll and taking nothing but drives and mid-range shots.
 

snowmanny

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reggiecleveland said:
 
Guys that are good shooters can add range, etc. But a weak college shooter will have trouble becoming a shooter.

TA.
What if you are a weak shooter but you are incredibly competitive and willing to work harder than other players? Like Jason Kidd? Or Magic Johnson? They both kind of sucked as shooters and turned into excellent three-point/free-throw and pretty much all-around shooters. If you were going to bet on somebody to improve is Smart the
guy you would bet on?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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reggiecleveland said:
I am on my phone, so I will not look for it, but the stats I have seen, as well as my observations as coach, player, fan, that some players make significant improvement, or don't really improve much at all. It becomes am=lmosy binary, with less than half making a huge jump, while most stay the same. If Smart is one of the minority group that makes a big jump he is an all star.
 
At any rate Smart will be a good player to have with scorers.
 
Maybe this is worth another thread.  At any rate, someone looked at the top 25 shooters from last year and compared that to their college 3P % to see if they "improved." 
 
Obviously, if Smart can go from 29.5% to 35% that will be incredibly helpful.  Also, as mentioned upthread, I suspect his percentage will go up because - hopefully - of better shot selection and may not be forced to jack up three-pointers with the shot clock winding down.
 
We can argue about methodology but here are the results:
 
[SIZE=medium]Player/ 2013-2014 3FG% / Years in College / College 3FG% / Difference[/SIZE]
 
[SIZE=medium]Kyle Korver        47.2      3            45.3      +1.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Arron Afflalo     42.7      3            37.3      +5.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Patty Mills          42.5      2            33.1      +9.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Stephen Curry   42.4      3            41.2      +1.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Klay Thompson 41.7      3            39.0      +2.7 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Spencer Hawes 41.6      1            33.3      +8.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Danny Green     41.5      4            37.5      +4.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Richard Jefferson            40.9      3            36.8      +4.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Trevor Ariza       40.7      1            23.7      +17.0 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Carmelo Anthony           40.2      1            33.7      +6.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Bradley Beal      40.2      1            33.9      +6.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Jodie Meeks      40.1      3            38.6      +1.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]D.J. Augustin     40.1      2            40.2      -0.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Joe Johnson       40.1      2            40.6      -0.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Terrence Ross   39.5      2            36.4      +3.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Vince Carter      39.4      3            36.8      +2.6 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Damian Lillard   39.4      4            39.0      +0.4 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Wesley Matthews          39.3      4            34.1      +5.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Kevin Durant     39.1      1            40.4      -1.3 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Nick Young        38.6      3            36.8      +1.8 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Randy Foye        38.0      4            32.9      +5.1 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Kyle Lowry         38.0      2            32.5      +5.5 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Mike Dunleavy  38.0      3            37.1      +0.9 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=medium]Kevin Love         37.6      1            35.4      +2.2 [/SIZE]
[SIZE=11pt]Ray Allen            37.5      3            44.8      -7.3[/SIZE]
 
Source:  http://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/2474/nba-draft-questions-can-players-truly-improve-their-shooting
 

amarshal2

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It's an interesting idea but by looking at the top 25 shooters over 1 year they've completely skewed the sample. It basically says that players can have years in the nba where they shot better than college... Which is an obvious statement based on random variation and choosing from the top of the leader board.
 

Devizier

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It makes sense that a player's shooting might improve -- it's a skill, not an athletic ability, and could be improved without physical maturation. But it's worth mentioning that most NBA players peak in their early (not mid) twenties, although the plateau extends throughout. It's also worth mentioning that scoring is the most important NBA skill, and that shooting is the major component of scoring. For these purposes, I'm considering drives as a separate skill that depends more on athleticism. So, while bad shooters should improve, the question is whether they can improve *enough*.
 

Sprowl

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Split off from the Wicked Smart thread.
 
If most players can improve their shooting by relentless practice and coaching, are there some that cannot, and can they be predicted by anatomy (eg, giant hands) or indicators (eg, poor FT%)?
 

radsoxfan

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I think there is something innate (or cultivated very early in life) about shooting.  If you take a look at any high school team with a group of guys that practice roughly a similar amount, there might be one great shooter, a couple good shooters, some average ones, and some terrible ones.  Everyone has some sort of "baseline" once they get to the high levels of basketball. 
 
As alluded to above, the trick in drafting is trying to find those guys who can improve significantly from that baseline with extra practice.  Some guys simply can't, no matter how hard they try.  Part of that may just be anatomic, part may be just some poor form thats too ingrained, part might just be mental, part might be poor work ethic.  Who knows.  I'm not sure there is a great way to predict it, though clearly some players significantly improve in the NBA (unlike athleticism which is fairly constant).
 
To make a simple example….. I think you could probably label anyone in the draft 1-10 as a shooter. There are plenty of guys I'd rank as a 2 or 3 (like Gordon or Smart perhaps), that have the ability to change their shooting skill by a couple of points and get to a 4 or 5 after a few years in the NBA (but they will almost surely never become a 7 or 8).  And there are plenty of  guys I'd rank as a 2 that will always be a 2 or 3 no matter what they do.
 
That's a long winded way to say there is definitely an innate or ingrained shooting skill players have before they get to the NBA. But there is also "something" that some players have that allows them to improve while others can't.  I'm not smart enough to really know or predict which players have that "something", but let's hope Smart has it. 
 

ivanvamp

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The answer, IMO, is both.  There are people who are naturally gifted, and who just have this ability to put the ball in the basket.  Their mechanics may not be sound (see Jamaal Wilkes), but doggone it, they can shoot.  And they have always been able to shoot.
 
But then you look at Ray Allen, who looks like the most naturally gifted shooter you can imagine, and he shoots hundreds, if not thousands, of times a day in practice.  It's constant work.  And I have personally seen players improve their shooting with proper coaching and better technique.  
 
There are some players, however, who don't have the gift and there are others who simply cannot ever seem to learn or develop.  They don't have touch, and for some reason they can't ever get touch.  
 
So long story short, I don't think you can ever really predict with a high degree of confidence who will improve and who will not.  Generally, I'm of the belief that the harder elite athletes work, with proper coaching, on skills, the better they will become at those skills.  If Smart really wants to improve as a shooter, the more time he spends refining his shooting stroke and developing the muscle memory that is needed come game-time, then yes, he will likely become a better shooter.
 
All that said, clearly people cannot always be improving.  Otherwise people would shoot 100%.  Every person has an athletic ceiling, and for every person, that ceiling is different.  I can work like crazy to improve my vertical, but I will never get to the point where I am jumping higher than Nate Robinson.  It just will not ever happen.  Similarly, it's possible that Smart will never become better than a 45% shooter.  Maybe that's his ceiling.  Who knows?  
 

SumnerH

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ivanvamp said:
All that said, clearly people cannot always be improving.  Otherwise people would shoot 100%.
The former is probably true, but the logic doesn't follow (see: asymptote).
 

ivanvamp

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SumnerH said:
The former is probably true, but the logic doesn't follow (see: asymptote).
 
Ok.  You get my point though.  They would shoot close to 100%.  How's that?  ;-)
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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Sprowl said:
Split off from the Wicked Smart thread.
 
If most players can improve their shooting by relentless practice and coaching, are there some that cannot, and can they be predicted by anatomy (eg, giant hands) or indicators (eg, poor FT%)?
 
well it's not hand size.  Kawhi Leonard improved his 3P shooting from under 30% in college to what you see now.  A lot of it has been mechanics change - as detailed by this website, http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1708151-predicting-spurs-kawhi-leonards-development-in-2013-2014, and discussed elsewhere.
 
And as we know, KL has hugely insane hand size.
 
Changing mechanics is incredibly hard.  For a lot of players, it just throws them off rather than makes them better.  Aaron Gordon has reportedly changed his mechanics for the better.  I don't think Marcus Smart needs an overhaul - I think he needs to make his footwork more consistent.  Which hopefully should be able to happen if he doesn't have to be the "do-everything" player for his team.
 

Brickowski

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Agree with Devizier that shooting is a skill that can be improved with practice.  But it has to be the right kind of practice because bad habits are very difficult to unlearn.  Sometimes those habits go back to grammar school.
 
IMHO the "big hands" argument (that player "x" will never be a good shooter because his hands are too big) is total bullshit.  Kevin Durant has huge hands and so did Bird.
 
Show me any good shooter and I'll show you a guy who has spent hours and hours in the gym since age 10 or so, has been well coached and has been receptive to good coaching.  There is no such thing as a good shooter who didn't practice much.
 

bowiac

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Sprowl said:
If most players can improve their shooting by relentless practice and coaching, are there some that cannot, and can they be predicted by anatomy (eg, giant hands) or indicators (eg, poor FT%)?
Yes (large hands are bad) and yes (FT% predicts perimeter shooting). Nothing is certain. As Brick points out, there are good shooters with large hands, but generally there is a negative correlation between the two. The same goes for FT%.
 
The reason analytics people don't care as much about shooting as other skills (i.e. why they love Smart and don't like McDermott) is because shooting translates so poorly from college to the pros. I suspect part of the reason for that poor translation is because there are guys who don't focus on their perimeter shooting in college, simply because other parts of their games still need work, and they can get away without it.
 
Smart was one of the best players in college without being a strong perimeter shooter. I suspect (with no evidence), that that's a good sign, in that points to him not having necessarily worked on it very much yet (focusing on other areas instead).
 

Cellar-Door

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bowiac said:
Yes (large hands are bad) and yes (FT% predicts perimeter shooting). Nothing is certain. As Brick points out, there are good shooters with large hands, but generally there is a negative correlation between the two. The same goes for FT%.
 
The reason analytics people don't care as much about shooting as other skills (i.e. why they love Smart and don't like McDermott) is because shooting translates so poorly from college to the pros. I suspect part of the reason for that poor translation is because there are guys who don't focus on their perimeter shooting in college, simply because other parts of their games still need work, and they can get away without it.
 
Smart was one of the best players in college without being a strong perimeter shooter. I suspect (with no evidence), that that's a good sign, in that points to him not having necessarily worked on it very much yet (focusing on other areas instead).
That is part of it. Part of it is athleticism and size. Open looks are much more common in the NCAA, and guys can't contest as well. So if you have a slow release it is fine in the NCAA, but in the NBA one of the superquick 6'7"+ defenders swats that weak shit.
 

crystalline

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I wouldn't be surprised if there was a fine motor skill trait that sets the ceiling. Some guys have the ability to repeat their mechanics perfectly and others are just more inconsistent.
You could draw the analogy to pitching where some guys have pinpoint control and others are more variable in strike zone position due to slightly larger variance in their mechanics. Do pitchers with high walk rates when young often improve?

One difference between baseball players ability to improve strike zone accuracy and basketball players ability to improve shooting accuracy is that pitchers can't easily increase their reps due to shoulder and elbow stress limitations. While Ray Allen can practice his shot 10x more than some other players if he puts in the time.
 

wutang112878

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There is no doubt that its both a skill and something innate.  Some players are innately great at passing like Kidd in his day, and some improve on that skill over time like say Jameer Nelson who has gone from 3 to 5 to 7 assists per 36   However to find this increase in assists per 36 example I had to look at like a dozen point guards and found little increase in their actual assists per 36 numbers for most of them. 
 
The story is probably similar with shooting.  With practice and dedication yes it can be improved like virtually everything else that a player does on the basketball court, but to me the question is really how many guys can do this?  I'd honestly be surprised if we could find a significant statistical improvement for 15 or 20% of the entire population