Jaylen Brown re-signs for 4 years/$115 million

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TripleOT

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I didn’t see last night’s game but agree. The one thing I think you have to wonder w Brown is: does he have the mental attitude to initiate when other guys want the ball too? It’s one thing to do it when you are one of two main options but I feel like he had seemed overly deferential and passive when surrounded by Kyrie, Kemba (and sometimes even Hayward) types.

I guess we will see.
Four assists to zero TOs against the Bucks, in a game where he needed to press his offense, and did so. If he can have 4-5 apg and keep the TOs down, that’s going to be big.

Brown has a career 1.4 ast to 1.5 to, so that’s obviously an area where he needs to improve.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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JB was 6-9 on shots from 10' to 3P line, which is incredible to think about since, by comparison, he was 23-78 for his entire rookie season from the same range. I've said this before but guys who have his physical gifts + his work ethic almost always become extremely successful and I don't think JB will be an exception.
 

TripleOT

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I was skeptical when I heard JB was working with Dominique, figuring that it wasn’t wise to have two point shots in your bag, but those paint turnarounds from 8-12 feet off hard drives, where Brown rises up over defenders, are so sweet, and so unguardable. It’s a nice third weapon after the threeball and straight line drive to the rim.
 

BaseballJones

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I was skeptical when I heard JB was working with Dominique, figuring that it wasn’t wise to have two point shots in your bag, but those paint turnarounds from 8-12 feet off hard drives, where Brown rises up over defenders, are so sweet, and so unguardable. It’s a nice third weapon after the threeball and straight line drive to the rim.
It's dumb for players to not have this in their arsenal. Smart (and good) teams will take away what you want to do, and make you do what they want you to do. Chase you off the three-point line, yet protect the paint. Everyone tries to force you to take those midrange shots. Because the game is all drives to the paint and threes now, not many guys are good from 10-18 feet. If you can hit those consistently (6 for 9 is good), you're going to be really really tough to guard.

Plus, honestly, they're not that difficult to make. They're much easier to make than three-pointers, especially when the other team is trying to prevent you from taking the three and essentially inviting you to take the midrange shots.

Obviously the math (extra point for the three) is why teams eschew the midrange shot, but if you can consistently get good looks from there and make a high percentage, you're gonna score an awful lot of points.
 

lovegtm

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He's not nearly the defender, but Jaylen's offensive career arc has a lot of similarities to Kawhi's. They're also both very robotic offensive players who don't have much innate passing feel.
 

slamminsammya

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It's dumb for players to not have this in their arsenal. Smart (and good) teams will take away what you want to do, and make you do what they want you to do. Chase you off the three-point line, yet protect the paint. Everyone tries to force you to take those midrange shots. Because the game is all drives to the paint and threes now, not many guys are good from 10-18 feet. If you can hit those consistently (6 for 9 is good), you're going to be really really tough to guard.

Plus, honestly, they're not that difficult to make. They're much easier to make than three-pointers, especially when the other team is trying to prevent you from taking the three and essentially inviting you to take the midrange shots.

Obviously the math (extra point for the three) is why teams eschew the midrange shot, but if you can consistently get good looks from there and make a high percentage, you're gonna score an awful lot of points.
I think the Daryl Morey allergy to the midrange is not supported by the evidence. Some of the best offenses and some of the best offensive players in modern basketball have and use the midrange as a weapon. It is not a primary threat but a necessary counter to create the space for the money shots as you mention.

Golden State surprisingly had a lot of midrange shots during their juggernaut run, and that was true even prior to KD joining up. The Aldridge-Lillard Blazers were another good example. The Lob City Clippers and Chris Paul are another example. Paul, Jamal Crawford, and JJ Reddick back then took a pretty large chunk of midrange shots.
 

BigSoxFan

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He's not nearly the defender, but Jaylen's offensive career arc has a lot of similarities to Kawhi's. They're also both very robotic offensive players who don't have much innate passing feel.
Yeah, not a perfect comparison but there are some similarities. In his 5th season, Kawhi averaged 21.2/6.8/2.6 on 51/44 (!!)/87 shooting. Jaylen is going to have higher volume than 2015-2016 Kawhi and his FT shooting isn't as good but I expect the counting stats to be similar. Their 2pt FG% is actually quite similar.
 

BaseballJones

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I think the Daryl Morey allergy to the midrange is not supported by the evidence. Some of the best offenses and some of the best offensive players in modern basketball have and use the midrange as a weapon. It is not a primary threat but a necessary counter to create the space for the money shots as you mention.

Golden State surprisingly had a lot of midrange shots during their juggernaut run, and that was true even prior to KD joining up. The Aldridge-Lillard Blazers were another good example. The Lob City Clippers and Chris Paul are another example. Paul, Jamal Crawford, and JJ Reddick back then took a pretty large chunk of midrange shots.
Yep. And don't misunderstand...I'm not saying the math is wrong and that teams should take the majority of their shots from midrange. I get that getting to the rim and getting open threes (especially corner threes) is how you score best. BUT...the other team knows that and works really hard to take those things away from you. And that means that the midrange looks are going to be there. If you can shoot 42% from midrange, you can still score a lot of points.

In 1996-97, no NBA team scored fewer than 13.6% of their points from the midrange (Seattle...remember them?). Chicago led the league at 29.6%. Not surprising, considering they had Jordan and Pippen.

In 2009-10, Chicago still led the league in midrange scoring at 26.7%, and Orlando was last at 13.7%.

In 2019-20, San Antonio led the league at 17.0%, and Houston was last at 3.7%. Mind-boggling.

Yet San Antonio was 8th in the league in scoring last year at 114.1. Portland was 3rd in mid-range % and 6th in overall scoring.

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and if the defense is letting you have the midrange shots, you can still be a highly effective offensive team (and individual player) if you work at being good at those shots.
 

joe dokes

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I think the Daryl Morey allergy to the midrange is not supported by the evidence. Some of the best offenses and some of the best offensive players in modern basketball have and use the midrange as a weapon. It is not a primary threat but a necessary counter to create the space for the money shots as you mention.

Golden State surprisingly had a lot of midrange shots during their juggernaut run, and that was true even prior to KD joining up. The Aldridge-Lillard Blazers were another good example. The Lob City Clippers and Chris Paul are another example. Paul, Jamal Crawford, and JJ Reddick back then took a pretty large chunk of midrange shots.
I think the analysis of the midrange-2 game sounds similar to the evolution of stolen base analysis in baseball. It's simplisitic to speak of them in terms of "dont do it," but should be more like "you have to shoot/steal a higher percentage than *that* if you do." Jaylen's 66.7% probably works.
At the same time, the 2-pointer from 3 inches in front of the 3-point line is more like the sac bunt. There are only rare occasions when it's a sound move.
 

Jimbodandy

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Yep. And don't misunderstand...I'm not saying the math is wrong and that teams should take the majority of their shots from midrange. I get that getting to the rim and getting open threes (especially corner threes) is how you score best. BUT...the other team knows that and works really hard to take those things away from you. And that means that the midrange looks are going to be there. If you can shoot 42% from midrange, you can still score a lot of points.

In 1996-97, no NBA team scored fewer than 13.6% of their points from the midrange (Seattle...remember them?). Chicago led the league at 29.6%. Not surprising, considering they had Jordan and Pippen.

In 2009-10, Chicago still led the league in midrange scoring at 26.7%, and Orlando was last at 13.7%.

In 2019-20, San Antonio led the league at 17.0%, and Houston was last at 3.7%. Mind-boggling.

Yet San Antonio was 8th in the league in scoring last year at 114.1. Portland was 3rd in mid-range % and 6th in overall scoring.

In other words, there's more than one way to skin a cat, and if the defense is letting you have the midrange shots, you can still be a highly effective offensive team (and individual player) if you work at being good at those shots.
When the pandemic is over, I want to take this post out for a nice tapas dinner and sangria and make sweet love to it all night long.
 

TripleOT

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A player has to make one of two his midrange shots to be as efficient as a player who makes one of three from behind the arc.

There is a handful of players who shoot over 50% from midrange, but over a hundred that shoot over 33.3 from three.

The key to Jaylen’s midrange game is getting his feet in the paint. When he does that, it’s a good shot that he can make reliability.
 

BaseballJones

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And yet we see from the data that you can still be an elite scoring team if you get a lot of your points from the midrange.

If you’re a good three point shooter, smart and good defensive teams will employ tactics to take you away from that. And since they don’t want to give you layups, what’s left? Yep. The midrange. So if that’s the shot they’re giving you, and working hard to take away everything else.... it is to your benefit to be good at shooting midrange shots.

Doesn’t mean they have to be the majority of your shots. But if that’s what they’re gonna give you, I can’t see any reason at all to not work to be good at that.
 

Jimbodandy

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I think that you guys are more in agreement than not. Nobody thinks that 19/20 foot shots are good basketball. But the 12-15' uncontested jumper is a good shot for him.
 

BaseballJones

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I think that you guys are more in agreement than not. Nobody thinks that 19/20 foot shots are good basketball. But the 12-15' uncontested jumper is a good shot for him.
100% agree. At lower levels of play I don’t want my players stepping back to take a three when they can be stepping into a longer two in rhythm. Of course the solution is to start further back so you step into a three in rhythm.

But yeah the 12-17 foot range is normally what I consider “midrange” anyway. A half step inside the line is the worst shot in basketball.
 

Jakarta

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The mid range jumper is a useful tool in the toolbox. Most players shouldn’t be taking a lot of them, but as a way to keep defenses honest instead of being able to load up at the rim once the ball gets inside the 3 point line.

James Harden exemplifies the extremes the game has gone to, by shooting basically nothing but 3s and layups/dunks. I think one of the ways he would actually be more efficient overall would be to take 2-3 jumpers from the foul line area. Because of the threat of him at the rim is so great, he’s likely to be wide open enough that he should make over 50% of them, and with his scoring ability, might get closer the upper 50s. It would also open up his drives to the rim once defenses have to respect the midrange, which would allow him to be more efficient on layups.

If Jaylen (or anyone really) can shoot well enough from mid range, it would similarly command enough respect from defenses that the drives all the way to the hoop open up.
 

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The mid range jumper is a useful tool in the toolbox. Most players shouldn’t be taking a lot of them, but as a way to keep defenses honest instead of being able to load up at the rim once the ball gets inside the 3 point line.

James Harden exemplifies the extremes the game has gone to, by shooting basically nothing but 3s and layups/dunks. I think one of the ways he would actually be more efficient overall would be to take 2-3 jumpers from the foul line area. Because of the threat of him at the rim is so great, he’s likely to be wide open enough that he should make over 50% of them, and with his scoring ability, might get closer the upper 50s. It would also open up his drives to the rim once defenses have to respect the midrange, which would allow him to be more efficient on layups.

If Jaylen (or anyone really) can shoot well enough from mid range, it would similarly command enough respect from defenses that the drives all the way to the hoop open up.
Isn't this a bit part of Kemba's game? Yes, he's good from 3, and he has a lot of great moves to the basket, but his pull-ups at the elbows are deadly.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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We can use this to discuss shot selection. There is a reason teams prefer shooting from beyond the arc versus taking a shot inside it while moving forward. The first one is a money maker especially if a guy like Tatum has a nifty step back while taking the latter at volume is a way to reduce not only future earnings but also playing time.

This chart showing point values per shot is pretty telling as well.

37352
 
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BaseballJones

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All true. And yet, again, somehow teams have found that they can score a high percentage of their points (relatively speaking) from the midrange and be an elite scoring team. That is just as much of a fact as what you just presented.
 

Jakarta

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View attachment 37351

We can use this to discuss shot selection. There is a reason teams prefer shooting from beyond the arc versus taking a shot inside it while moving forward. The first one is a money maker especially if a guy like Tatum has a nifty step back while taking the latter at volume isa way to reduce not only future earnings but also playing time.

This chart showing point values per shot is pretty telling as well.

View attachment 37352
These are fascinating charts, which provide a lot of great insight into this discussion. And wholeheartedly agree teams shouldn’t be designing plays to get these inefficient shots. But over the course of a game/series/season, the threat to pull up from 15ft seems like it would allow the already high yielding areas to have even higher yields.
It’s sort of the inside the arc equivalent of having to guard Steph from 35ft. Sure, you prefer him to shoot from 35ft than 24ft, but because he’s enough of a threat from out there, you have to go pick him up, and it sometimes allows him more space to beat him man and get a good look from 24ft.
 

benhogan

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The biggest benefit of Jaylen hitting elbow jumpers at a high rate is the attention he'll draw. This should lead to "paint" touches, step-in 3pt shots from Tatum/Kemba/Nesmith, and assists for JB.
 

Jimbodandy

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The money shots just won’t be as good without using up the entire court. I think that’s the point here.
Bingo. Jakarta said it above. If the rotate man can just wait at the rim for you, that's a much harder shot for you. If he has to play you honest, your layups are easier shots.

Another point--not every guy is the same. It's nice to have a blanket "don't do that shit" statement that works for the vast majority of cases. But some guys are efficient doing that shit.
 

Kliq

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Zach Lowe has said a few times that one of the reasons he feels like Harden has struggled in the postseason is the fact that he never takes midrange shots. A well-disciplined playoff defense that is playing a series against Harden is getting a huge advantage if they know that he will only shoot the ball if he is standing in a few select spots on the floor. This seems to make a lot of logical sense, and in a playoff series it is easier to design a gameplan that tries to steer Harden into more midrange opportunities that he pathologically is not going to take.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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All true. And yet, again, somehow teams have found that they can score a high percentage of their points (relatively speaking) from the midrange and be an elite scoring team. That is just as much of a fact as what you just presented.
My sense is that good midrange shooting is still highly valued, especially when paired with other skills. There was a discussion upthread about how stepping into a two was, if I understand correctly, better than stepping back into a three. While that may be true of specific players the league clearly values the latter act more highly. And with good reason - the math is plain that its the more efficient way to score.

A good midrange game is still a nice weapon, especially if a shooter is good at drawing fouls /grifting - see Paul, Chris.
 

amarshal2

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I think the mid range has three areas of value
1) to help maximize a players offensive efficiency by forcing teams to respect it and thereby opening up better opportunities for driving to the basket. — been covered extensively in this thread

2) by the players who defy the charts above and actually are efficient scorers in the midrange shooting >50%. Think Chris Paul, KD, Kyrie, Hayward, and....Jaylen Brown last year. A lot of the excitement around Browns mid range game is because last year and the other night it was actually quite efficient in addition to #1. (By contrast Tatum’s not at all efficient with it (yet) and you want to see him use it more sparingly in service of #1, at least in the playoffs)

3) Because in late game scenarios “odds of making a bucket” can be more valuable than “expected points per shot.” This is how Jimmy Butler beat the Celtics. In late game scenarios for a short series there’s value in reducing variance. While it’s better early in the game to shoot 3’s at 37% rate for your 1.1 expected points if you really need a bucket I’d much rather have Chris Paul take a ~50% elbow jumper than Harden take a 36% step back three. To use extreme situation if you’re down by 1 with 10 seconds to go you win the game >50% of the time with the Paul elbow jumper and 36% of the time with Harden 3.

Even superior to that (by a lot) in all respects is the guy who can drive to the hoop for 50% chance of a 55% shot and 50% chance to the foul line for 1.7 expected points. Late game the more you have guys like Butler who can get to the rim, get to the line, or get a >50% mid range jumper the more playoff games you’re going to win. This is where Tatum/Brown lost the ECF and where they need to mature most. Worth noting it nearly cost them the Toronto series as well and it’s an area that looked just as bad opening night. It was glorious but hard to feel good about bank shot 3’s as a strategy.
 
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wade boggs chicken dinner

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This chart showing point values per shot is pretty telling as well.

View attachment 37352
I only briefly skimmed the article but I am correct he did not use FT attempts in his expected point per shot?

My other takeaway from the map is that while I understand why BBall went to 3Ps vs 2Ps, that's really an incorrect relationship. It should be more like 4 points versus 3 points. Or maybe even 6 points for beyond the arc, 5 points for inside, 2.5 points for each FT except if you get fouled on a shot beyond the arc and you make the first 2 FTs, the last FT is only worth 1 point.
 

slamminsammya

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Jaylen hit 7 midrange shots in game 1 by my count, which is a huge number in 2020, and exactly the kind of offense you will need against a team like Milwaukee who are so long and load up around the rim much more than most teams. I would like to see more opportunities for Jaylen to initiate and make plays for others. He had 4 assists but three of those were simple passes that led to pullups and not exactly making a play.
 

lovegtm

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Mildly improved passing will come as he gets more comfortable as a primary ball-handler. I don’t know that it will ever be a plus skill for him, but he’s good enough at other things that it doesn’t have to be. (see pre-2019 Kawhi)
 

Jimbodandy

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Mildly improved passing will come as he gets more comfortable as a primary ball-handler. I don’t know that it will ever be a plus skill for him, but he’s good enough at other things that it doesn’t have to be. (see pre-2019 Kawhi)
You can see that he's looking for it, which is a huge step imo. As you note, he's getting more comfortable both in space and traffic and seems to be making better decisions under control, including looking for the right teammate and not forcing. I'm a known Jaylen stan, but I'm really impressed by this development (3G SSS).

Also, love amarshal2's take on midrange. I've always felt the same way about bunting. Most of the time, it's a bad idea. Bottom 10, no outs, speedy 8th batter on first--you only need one run. Butler's 50% elbow jumper is better value with 2 seconds left than Harden's 36% step back from 28 when you only need 2 points.
 

Buster Olney the Lonely

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One thing that I noticed watching Jimmy Butler last year in the conference finals is how wellhe passed the ball whenever he drew a double team in the paint. It was incredibly effective. Jaylen has a tendency to force things. If he could add that ability to find thr open man in those situations it would really round out his game nicely.
 

Cesar Crespo

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I'm not convinced he'll ever be much of a playmaker, but I've been really impressed by Jaylen in the first 2 games and think he may work himself into a top 20 player by years end and one of the better #2s in the league. Given his age and contract, he should be pretty close to untouchable in trades.
It's very early, but his assist rate in the first 2 games (19.3%) is double his career rate of 8.5%. He's never been that prone to turnovers but in the first 2 games, it's 3.0% (career 11.2%).

Jaylen vs Butler assist rate first 4 years. Keep in mind Jaylen is 2 years younger.
7.2% 5.7%
8.5% 8.6%
7.7% 11.1%
9.7% 14.4%

Butler in year 5 was at 21.4%. Career 18.1%.

I'd be very happy if Brown could get into the 14-15% range. If he stays close to 20%, he may even approach top 15 status.
 

lovegtm

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I'm not convinced he'll ever be much of a playmaker, but I've been really impressed by Jaylen in the first 2 games and think he may work himself into a top 20 player by years end and one of the better #2s in the league. Given his age and contract, he should be pretty close to untouchable in trades.
It's very early, but his assist rate in the first 2 games (19.3%) is double his career rate of 8.5%. He's never been that prone to turnovers but in the first 2 games, it's 3.0% (career 11.2%).

Jaylen vs Butler assist rate first 4 years. Keep in mind Jaylen is 2 years younger.
7.2% 5.7%
8.5% 8.6%
7.7% 11.1%
9.7% 14.4%

Butler in year 5 was at 21.4%. Career 18.1%.

I'd be very happy if Brown could get into the 14-15% range. If he stays close to 20%, he may even approach top 15 status.
Yeah, he doesn’t have to become much of a playmaker to increase his value a lot, because the starting point was so low. There’s a fair amount of precedent for wings like him gradually adding reads for awhile into their careers.

I’m really impressed at his continued ability to develop. It’s getting harder to bet against him hitting his higher-end outcomes.
 

DannyDarwinism

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You can see that he's looking for it, which is a huge step imo. As you note, he's getting more comfortable both in space and traffic and seems to be making better decisions under control, including looking for the right teammate and not forcing. I'm a known Jaylen stan, but I'm really impressed by this development (3G SSS).

Also, love amarshal2's take on midrange. I've always felt the same way about bunting. Most of the time, it's a bad idea. Bottom 10, no outs, speedy 8th batter on first--you only need one run. Butler's 50% elbow jumper is better value with 2 seconds left than Harden's 36% step back from 28 when you only need 2 points.
Yeah, I agree with that position as well, and Jaylen's early season success with getting to his mid-range spot on the floor, and creating tons of space for his jumper with his suddenness and elevation really looks like the continuing of his Kawhification. Gordon used it very effectively, and I was hoping Jaylen would learn from him, in terms of how to get to his spots with patience, footwork and handles. It's funny that one of the most fundamental aspects of the game on offense now seems quaint when it used to be the first thing a kid like Jaylen would learn coming up, but it still can be a very important part of a scorer's bag. There may be shots that are typically better, in terms of expected points per attempt. but good (i.e. playoff) defenses can make those a lot harder, and this team will always need back up plans. Jaylen mastering the 16 foot turnaround would be a very good development.
 

lovegtm

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Imo, people mistook a bad handle for a lack of vision in Jaylen's case. You can see as he gets more and more comfortable that his head stays up and he's finding opportunities to pass.

He has been the Celtics best player this year, and it's not because Tatum has been awful (although not at his bubble level). I can see a possible path to Jaylen Brown, Top 10 Player now, and that is a recent development.

It would be interesting, as his skillset develops, to see how he looks with a spread floor attacking his man 1-on-1. He seems to be able to beat anybody off the dribble pretty much at will now, and a screener just mucks that up.
 

lovegtm

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Final Jaylen thought: if he can become a top-10 player, it becomes a lot more likely that he and Jayson stick together long-term and poach a buddy like Mitchell for a superfriends team.
 

Eddie Jurak

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I think the mid range has three areas of value
1) to help maximize a players offensive efficiency by forcing teams to respect it and thereby opening up better opportunities for driving to the basket. — been covered extensively in this thread

2) by the players who defy the charts above and actually are efficient scorers in the midrange shooting >50%. Think Chris Paul, KD, Kyrie, Hayward, and....Jaylen Brown last year. A lot of the excitement around Browns mid range game is because last year and the other night it was actually quite efficient in addition to #1. (By contrast Tatum’s not at all efficient with it (yet) and you want to see him use it more sparingly in service of #1, at least in the playoffs)

3) Because in late game scenarios “odds of making a bucket” can be more valuable than “expected points per shot.” This is how Jimmy Butler beat the Celtics. In late game scenarios for a short series there’s value in reducing variance. While it’s better early in the game to shoot 3’s at 37% rate for your 1.1 expected points if you really need a bucket I’d much rather have Chris Paul take a ~50% elbow jumper than Harden take a 36% step back three. To use extreme situation if you’re down by 1 with 10 seconds to go you win the game >50% of the time with the Paul elbow jumper and 36% of the time with Harden 3.

Even superior to that (by a lot) in all respects is the guy who can drive to the hoop for 50% chance of a 55% shot and 50% chance to the foul line for 1.7 expected points. Late game the more you have guys like Butler who can get to the rim, get to the line, or get a >50% mid range jumper the more playoff games you’re going to win. This is where Tatum/Brown lost the ECF and where they need to mature most. Worth noting it nearly cost them the Toronto series as well and it’s an area that looked just as bad opening night. It was glorious but hard to feel good about bank shot 3’s as a strategy.
I agree with all of these. I'd add one more: threes are shot at such a high percentage overall because so many of them are uncontested. Against a defense that guard out to the three point line well, there are basically 2 options: shoot them from deeper or go to the midrange. In practice, we see both of these.

I would guess that the teams that hit threes well will generally be better at the midrange game because defenses need to focus on defending against threes.
I'm not convinced he'll ever be much of a playmaker, but I've been really impressed by Jaylen in the first 2 games and think he may work himself into a top 20 player by years end and one of the better #2s in the league.
The good news is that he can be a great player even if he's just an adequate playmaker, which seems completely achievable for him.
 

BaseballJones

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Game log through five games:
vs Mil: 33 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
vs Brk: 27 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists
at Ind: 18 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
at Ind: 20 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 steals
vs Mem: 42 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal

AVG: 28.0 points, 4.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.8 steals

Nice start.
 

BigSoxFan

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Game log through five games:
vs Mil: 33 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
vs Brk: 27 points, 8 rebounds, 3 assists
at Ind: 18 points, 2 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals
at Ind: 20 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists, 4 steals
vs Mem: 42 points, 5 rebounds, 4 assists, 1 steal

AVG: 28.0 points, 4.4 rebounds, 3.4 assists, 1.8 steals

Nice start.
Would like to see him but get that FT% up above 75% but it’s a minor quibble at this point. He’s been great.

0.8 WS compared to Tatum’s 0.3. He’s been the best player on the team by a decent margin.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,425
I was in the "anyone not named Tatum for Harden" camp. Those kinds of players are rare and hard to come by.

I'm off that train until the trade deadline. Ive been a Brown fan since he was drafted. You could probably find posts I made here where I questioned if Brown could end up better than Tatum. Harden is a generational talent, but now er need to see how Brown develops. Expecting 40+ in a game isnt fair, but if this stretch of games is the baseline? You cant touch Tatum OR Brown.

Let's see if he can sustain this type of play for a few months. There will be lulls, but if this becomes more and more common? This teams a top 5 team for the next decade.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,375
I don't think Jaylen is a 28 point, 6 rebound, 5 assist guy on a regular basis. But I think he can be a legit 24 point, 5 rebound, 3-4 assist guy, which is close, but definitely a step down. Meanwhile, Tatum is very quietly going about his business, but he's averaging career highs in points (23.6), rebounds (8.2), and assists (3.2). HE is a guy who can be a 28 point, 8 rebound, 4-5 assist guy on a regular basis.

The Celtics will be in great shape if Tatum is a top-5ish player while Brown is a regular all-star. That would be a fantastic 1-2 punch.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

posts way less than 18% useful shit
SoSH Member
Nov 17, 2010
14,425
I don't think Jaylen is a 28 point, 6 rebound, 5 assist guy on a regular basis. But I think he can be a legit 24 point, 5 rebound, 3-4 assist guy, which is close, but definitely a step down. Meanwhile, Tatum is very quietly going about his business, but he's averaging career highs in points (23.6), rebounds (8.2), and assists (3.2). HE is a guy who can be a 28 point, 8 rebound, 4-5 assist guy on a regular basis.

The Celtics will be in great shape if Tatum is a top-5ish player while Brown is a regular all-star. That would be a fantastic 1-2 punch.
Right. Bubble Tatum basically put to bed any remaining thoughts I had that Brown might be a superior player at the end of their careers. But I would not be shocked if Brown ends up averaging close to 30 in a season at some point, due largely to the fact that hes playing next to Tatum.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Imo, people mistook a bad handle for a lack of vision in Jaylen's case. You can see as he gets more and more comfortable that his head stays up and he's finding opportunities to pass.
I strongly disagree.

Maybe it's hard to parse them apart sometimes, but Jaylen handle was below average early on in his career, it was a major problem. He was constantly losing the ball and had no way to get by his man while maintaining his dribble. It's night and day now.

His vision may be better because his handle is better, but I don't think he always had a good handle but just lacked vision.
 

Jimbodandy

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 31, 2006
11,403
around the way
I strongly disagree.

Maybe it's hard to parse them apart sometimes, but Jaylen handle was below average early on in his career, it was a major problem. He was constantly losing the ball and had no way to get by his man while maintaining his dribble. It's night and day now.

His vision may be better because his handle is better, but I don't think he always had a good handle but just lacked vision.
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but you two seem to actually agree.

Jaylen didn't have a vision problem. He had a handle problem. Now that he has clarified the latter, the former is opening up.

He'll still have the occasional bad turnover as he masters the passing component, but being able to see the floor because you're not focusing on the ball is a big development.

I'm on board with that theory.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,837
Did they take a basket away from him last night? In the video above they say "43" after he scores. And Karalis said he had him with 44 unti stats came out.
 

radsoxfan

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 9, 2009
13,622
Maybe I'm reading it wrong, but you two seem to actually agree.

Jaylen didn't have a vision problem. He had a handle problem. Now that he has clarified the latter, the former is opening up.

He'll still have the occasional bad turnover as he masters the passing component, but being able to see the floor because you're not focusing on the ball is a big development.

I'm on board with that theory.
Maybe I'm reading his post wrong, but I don't think anyone mistook a bad handle for lack of vision. I think people took it correctly.... he had a bad handle.

Poor vision may have been a byproduct but the handle was the problem.
 
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