Jayson Tatum's Rise to the Top
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https://www.si.com/fannation/nba/fastbreak/news/2021-22-nba-awards-media-poll-results-all-nba-teams
good point, so he was clearly Top 10 this season
As it currently exists, my tiers would be:
Tier 1
Giannis
Tier 2
Tatum
Durant
Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Curry
LeBron
Tier 3
Booker
Butler
Ja
Paul
Trae
Paul George
I'm not including everyone, but the leap Tatum has made this year is leaving no doubt he should be compared to any of the Tier 3 stars (except maybe Butler) and is firmly in the Tier 2 category. Tier 2 is a combo of guys who are accomplished winners but maybe past their peak (Curry, KD, LeBron) for various reasons and guys who I feel like have clear best guy on a title team potential (Tatum, Luka, Embiid and Jokic) but haven't won anything yet. Giannis is the only player I really feel comfortable saying is still in his prime and a proven winner, so he is Tier 1 by himself.
Tier 1
Giannis
Tier 2
Tatum
Durant
Jokic
Embiid
Doncic
Curry
LeBron
Tier 3
Booker
Butler
Ja
Paul
Trae
Paul George
I'm not including everyone, but the leap Tatum has made this year is leaving no doubt he should be compared to any of the Tier 3 stars (except maybe Butler) and is firmly in the Tier 2 category. Tier 2 is a combo of guys who are accomplished winners but maybe past their peak (Curry, KD, LeBron) for various reasons and guys who I feel like have clear best guy on a title team potential (Tatum, Luka, Embiid and Jokic) but haven't won anything yet. Giannis is the only player I really feel comfortable saying is still in his prime and a proven winner, so he is Tier 1 by himself.
Wait, have the announced all-nba already? Or are you going off projections from the votes that have been made public?
Any discussion of tiers has to defined pretty clearly. A guy like Durant is likely still going to be better than Tatum on the court (although maybe not for much longer), but he's 10 years older and has missed 136 games over the last 3 seasons. Kawhi can still be the most dangerous two-way big wing in the league, but he's in his 30s and hasn't played a full season since 2017 (Paul George is the same, just slightly less in all aspects). AD, for all the shit he gets, is still an absolutely devastating modern big when he plays, which isn't often. Embiid played a career high in minutes and games this year, and still logged 8 fewer games and over 400 fewer minutes than Tatum.
Tatum has been one of the most durable superstars since he came into the NBA, and he's younger than most on this list. I gotta think that if we take into account age and durability, the only guys in Tatum's class are Giannis and Luka. If the ranking is just about impact right now and when guys are healthy, it's a much more crowded grouping.
Tatum has been one of the most durable superstars since he came into the NBA, and he's younger than most on this list. I gotta think that if we take into account age and durability, the only guys in Tatum's class are Giannis and Luka. If the ranking is just about impact right now and when guys are healthy, it's a much more crowded grouping.
I don't remember them being announced, although I could have missed it. I'm saying that were he, that kinda ends the speculation. Or at least it shows that he's finally getting the recognition that he's in that group. The guys that you have to beat out at Forward is a nightmare.
I hesitate to put JT in the top 5 (or at the top of tier 2). He has it all, but a bit too frequently he has off games.
Achieving better game-to-game consistency (at his high level) is his biggest growth area!
Achieving better game-to-game consistency (at his high level) is his biggest growth area!
I assumed that players were not in order within tiers. It makes more sense that way.
Is there something that shows he has more frequent off-games than others? What's your definition?
I think if there is one thing that would keep Tatum from being a "Top 5" in a few years, it's that the next generation of NBA superstars vying for the Top 5 is really quite amazing. Not only Giannis, but also Embiid, Jokic, Luka, Morant, and possibly Booker and Trae Young will all be vying for First Team All NBA honors along with Tatum. And you still have the holdovers in LeBron, Steph, Kawhi, KD, and AD that will compete for the same if and when they are healthy for a full season (a big if for most of them at this point).
It's really quite an era, and note that the canvas is still being painted for the draftees from 2019-21.
It's really quite an era, and note that the canvas is still being painted for the draftees from 2019-21.
I'll take a superstar that plays 75 games with a handful of off nights over a guy that plays 50 games eight days a week. Because all those old, injured guys have off nights too.
Because All NBA doesn't reflect the actual five best players but sticks with positions there are always going to be undeserving players on the first team because they're centers or point guards. And old guys always cruise by on reputation. See, for example, Kobe Bryant, last selected to NBA's All Defensive team about five years after he stopped playing any. Part time players also shouldn't be on any top five list.
At the end of the day two way wings are the currency of the modern NBA and at the moment Tatum is the best of the best. Can LeBron or KD be better on any given night? Sure. But neither guy can reach those heights night and night out anymore. It's part of getting old.
Some of us we’re arguing Tatum was a top 10 player a year ago (he was) and that once he got going this year he was pushing himself into the top 5 conversation (he was). I think at this point the question should be is Tatum on the cusp of being a perennial MVP candidate and the answer is yes. I think Tatum has clearly eclipsed the mid-30s stars at this point (Lebron, Durant, Harden, Kawhi, Steph), with Curry the guy I’m least certain about because I’m not convinced he cannot still single handedly warp games. I don’t think Tatum is better than Giannis, but is clearly in the next tier with Embiid, Jokic, and Doncic (plus maybe Steph).
Put differently, there is not a player in the game other than Giannis that I would willingly trade Tatum for irrespective of whether the goal is winning today or winning 5 years from now.
That is a solid point. But in the playoffs, off nights can be dangerous.
In general: other than Giannis, there is no one I would trade JT for (assuming a 3 yr contract).
Maybe I am leaning critical since JT being an indisputable top 5 (or top 3) is so close. The skills/strength/smarts are all there. It's just a matter of mastering emotions and the allocation of energy
I hate the complaining as much as anyone but I do think that he’s going to start getting a good amount of the calls he bitches about next year.
Especially after this run, I think Tatum will get a lot more respect from everyone (refs, media, etc)
I cannot stand the complaining, and especially the not getting back. But damn I get the frustration, last round he watched Giannis (who Tatum likely finishes all 1st team nba) get a completely different whistle, and now Butler getting a ton of touch fouls called in his favor.
It’s a league wide thing though, I saw Luka and Steph not run back multiple times last night because they were trying to get a call.
It’s a league wide thing though, I saw Luka and Steph not run back multiple times last night because they were trying to get a call.
It’s certainly true that availability is a differentiated ability but I also wonder whether there is a bit of a ding for lack of consistency.
I’ve not done the work, but would be interesting to look beyond game averages to standard deviations. Is Lebron more of a performance metronome than Tatum for example? I don’t know, and I don’t really trust my eyeballs here, but I do think consistency feels like an opportunity for improvement.
He’s may not be 19 (shhhhh) but he’s still coming into his own on a lot of levels: for example this was his first season with ‘man strength’.
One thing I love about this Celtics team is this:
The 9 guys they actually use is this list:
Tatum - draft
Brown - draft
Smart - draft
RWill - draft
Horford - trade
GWill - draft
White - trade
Pritchard - draft
Theis - trade (or sign...can't remember)
6 of the top 9, and 6 of the top 8 really, all came to the Celtics via the draft. Tons of home grown talent on this roster. I don't know how that compares to other rosters, but I love this about the Cs.
The 9 guys they actually use is this list:
Tatum - draft
Brown - draft
Smart - draft
RWill - draft
Horford - trade
GWill - draft
White - trade
Pritchard - draft
Theis - trade (or sign...can't remember)
6 of the top 9, and 6 of the top 8 really, all came to the Celtics via the draft. Tons of home grown talent on this roster. I don't know how that compares to other rosters, but I love this about the Cs.
Tatum's bad game yesterday was right there with his Milwaukee bad game.
In the 4th quarter, Tatum played 10 minutes. He shot 0-2 from the field, 1 assist, 3 turnovers. He scored one point - a technical free throw. As the team fought its way back into the game, he was missing in action, his only visible impact on the game being that he committed 3 of the Celtics' 5 4th quarter turnovers. Half of his turnovers in the game were committed in the 4th. All live ball turnovers - two bad passes and a lost ball.
In Milwaukee game 3, if Tatum simply hauled down a few key rebounds or had a 2 minute stretch of playing like he can, the Celtics win.
In this one, if Jayson Tatum simply takes care of the ball in the 4th quarter, maybe that is enough for the Celtics to win.
But it gets worse for Tatum.
The Celtics entered the 4th quarter down 15. During the first 6 minutes of the quarter, they cut the lead to 11. At that point, Tatum has the ball stolen from him, goes down in a heap, and remains on the floor until the next stoppage. During that time, Milwaukee ran a fast break, Strus was denied on a great Jaylen Brown block, and the Celtics came back the other way, missed a shot, Brown pulls down an offensive rebound and scores and gets an and-1. That cuts the Miami lead to 8. That +3 goes on Tatum's line, but literally all he did was get the ball stolen from him and then lay on the floor hurt.
When Tatum gets hurt (turned out to be a shoulder stinger and he later came back), there is 5:18 left in the game, and Ime inserts Pritchard. Over the next 1:38, Miami misses a shot, Celtics get the rebound, Brown scores. Miami calls time. Lowry turns the ball over (bad pass/Grant steal), Brown scores. Miami misses again, Celtics rebound, Strus fouls brown. Miami lead has been cut to 4, 93-89, on basically a 7-0 run following Tatum's tunrover/injury.
But at the stoppage, Ime puts Tatum back in for Pritchard. How does that go? Tatum gets tied up and has to jump with Tucker, the Celtics control but a Horford hook shot is blocked. Tatum fouled Bam at the other end. Lowry misses, Celtics rebound, Brown hits a deep three. 93-92. Then the wheels come off - Strus hits a three, Miami lead back to 4. Celtics get a shot clock violation, Bam hits a jumper, Miami lead back to 6. Tatum turns the ball over (bad pass/Tucker steal), Grant fouls Tucker, who makes both, Miami lead is back to 8 with 1:07 left and the Celtics are toast.
If Ime simply does not reinsert Tatum into this game, maybe the Celtics win it. That's probably a call a coach cannot make, but their best basketball of the quarter came with Tatum either lying on the court injured after having the ball stolen from him or on the bench.
On the other hand, there is still this from the do or die game 6 in Milwaukee: 42 minutes, 46 points on 17-32 shooting, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, a block, and 4 turnovers. In the 4th quarter alone, he personally shut down a Miami comeback (and another Celtic team choke on the heals of their game 5 fourth quarter choke) by scoring 16 points on 5 of 7 shooting (2 of 3 from 3 and 5 of 7 from the line).
Add all of this up and what you have with Tatum is someone who could be a top 5 guy but isn't there yet. Despite his many years in the league, he's only 24. Despite his many playoff games (64) and his prior appearances in the ECF (2), this is the first time he's been there that it has been his team. So he can be forgiven. And time has not run out on this season, so maybe there is time yet for him to figure it out. But if he doesn't, if the Celtics fail to advance, he's to blame. And his future (and the future of this version of the Celtics) depends on whether he does. Lack of experience can be an excuse for him this year, but not again.
- Tatum's Milwaukee game 3 line: 41 minutes, 4-19 shooting, 10 points, 1 rebound, 3 assists, 1 steal, 4 blocks, 3 turnovers.
- Tatum's Miami game 3 line: 41 minutes, 3-14 shooting, 10 points, 6 rebounds, 4 assists, 6 turnovers
In the 4th quarter, Tatum played 10 minutes. He shot 0-2 from the field, 1 assist, 3 turnovers. He scored one point - a technical free throw. As the team fought its way back into the game, he was missing in action, his only visible impact on the game being that he committed 3 of the Celtics' 5 4th quarter turnovers. Half of his turnovers in the game were committed in the 4th. All live ball turnovers - two bad passes and a lost ball.
In Milwaukee game 3, if Tatum simply hauled down a few key rebounds or had a 2 minute stretch of playing like he can, the Celtics win.
In this one, if Jayson Tatum simply takes care of the ball in the 4th quarter, maybe that is enough for the Celtics to win.
But it gets worse for Tatum.
The Celtics entered the 4th quarter down 15. During the first 6 minutes of the quarter, they cut the lead to 11. At that point, Tatum has the ball stolen from him, goes down in a heap, and remains on the floor until the next stoppage. During that time, Milwaukee ran a fast break, Strus was denied on a great Jaylen Brown block, and the Celtics came back the other way, missed a shot, Brown pulls down an offensive rebound and scores and gets an and-1. That cuts the Miami lead to 8. That +3 goes on Tatum's line, but literally all he did was get the ball stolen from him and then lay on the floor hurt.
When Tatum gets hurt (turned out to be a shoulder stinger and he later came back), there is 5:18 left in the game, and Ime inserts Pritchard. Over the next 1:38, Miami misses a shot, Celtics get the rebound, Brown scores. Miami calls time. Lowry turns the ball over (bad pass/Grant steal), Brown scores. Miami misses again, Celtics rebound, Strus fouls brown. Miami lead has been cut to 4, 93-89, on basically a 7-0 run following Tatum's tunrover/injury.
But at the stoppage, Ime puts Tatum back in for Pritchard. How does that go? Tatum gets tied up and has to jump with Tucker, the Celtics control but a Horford hook shot is blocked. Tatum fouled Bam at the other end. Lowry misses, Celtics rebound, Brown hits a deep three. 93-92. Then the wheels come off - Strus hits a three, Miami lead back to 4. Celtics get a shot clock violation, Bam hits a jumper, Miami lead back to 6. Tatum turns the ball over (bad pass/Tucker steal), Grant fouls Tucker, who makes both, Miami lead is back to 8 with 1:07 left and the Celtics are toast.
If Ime simply does not reinsert Tatum into this game, maybe the Celtics win it. That's probably a call a coach cannot make, but their best basketball of the quarter came with Tatum either lying on the court injured after having the ball stolen from him or on the bench.
On the other hand, there is still this from the do or die game 6 in Milwaukee: 42 minutes, 46 points on 17-32 shooting, 9 rebounds, 4 assists, a block, and 4 turnovers. In the 4th quarter alone, he personally shut down a Miami comeback (and another Celtic team choke on the heals of their game 5 fourth quarter choke) by scoring 16 points on 5 of 7 shooting (2 of 3 from 3 and 5 of 7 from the line).
Add all of this up and what you have with Tatum is someone who could be a top 5 guy but isn't there yet. Despite his many years in the league, he's only 24. Despite his many playoff games (64) and his prior appearances in the ECF (2), this is the first time he's been there that it has been his team. So he can be forgiven. And time has not run out on this season, so maybe there is time yet for him to figure it out. But if he doesn't, if the Celtics fail to advance, he's to blame. And his future (and the future of this version of the Celtics) depends on whether he does. Lack of experience can be an excuse for him this year, but not again.
Tatum’s most positive contribution to the Celtics unsuccessful comeback attempt last night was getting hurt.
He sucked. We all know he sucked. He knows he sucked. Let’s see how he responds. I will be shocked if they don’t tie this up tomorrow night.
As will I, but to come up that small in a game where there was no Butler in the second half underscores to me that Tatum isn't yet in the same league as Curry and Doncic. The good news is his youth and time to get there, but there's literally zero margin for the best of the best to lay the kind of egg he did last night in the conference finals, and neither Jaylen nor Marcus nor Al are capable of playing Garnett to his Pierce.
Well, I’ll co-sign that. But I think that whether and how he responds is a completely open question for me. Neither him playing his best ever game or his worst ever game would surprise me at this point.
Tatum was truly awful last night. If he’s even just bad the Celtics win the game.
However, in response to your last sentence, I think we have a pretty damn good idea of how Tatum plays next game….
View: https://twitter.com/CelticsMuse/status/1527492785175150595?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1527492785175150595%7Ctwgr%5E%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fcelticswire.usatoday.com%2Flists%2Fnba-twitter-reacts-to-jayson-tatums-big-game-2-against-heat%2F
Luka shot 6-18 with 7 TOs in Game 1 of his series. He wasn’t much better. End of the day, it was a frustrating missed opportunity but we can survive this if they get their heads out of their asses. But if they don’t win this series, my “what if” lamenting will probably start with this game. They were exhausted during 2nd half of Game 1. No excuse for last night’s performance. They just weren’t ready, from coach on down.
You truly think that there is a large chance he plays poorly or “worst game ever” in game 4? He’s come back EVERY time from a poor game with a great game so far this post-season. Despite his poor games, he’s still been as good as any other player on any team this post season. Better than Luca, fwiw.
Not a large chance he plays his worst game ever, no. But a lot more of a possibility of that than I'd expect from a top 5 player.
No disagreement--this is still a very winnable series. But you don't get too many games with the opponent's star unexpectedly going out for all of the second half on home court. To piss that opportunity away means that I too will lead with this game in the "what ifs" should we not prevail.
Was at the game last night.
I'm a full fledged Tatum fan boy and admittedly get very frustrated by Smart and brown, who to me are very careless players who sprinkle brilliance with insanity.
Tatum from tip was just watching the game last night. He wasn't demanding the ball. I don't mean nonsense like he didn't want it enough (a phrase that drives me insane for athletes at this level). But he wasn't demanding that the game go through him, even as playmaker. He was largely invisible out there. At times I had to check to see if he was on the floor. 7 and 36 for all the things they do to drive me crazy were demanding the game flow through them. That's the part I struggle with Tatum with. He's brilliant, but he hasn't developed the alpha mentality on nights that his shot isn't falling. Smart and Brown don't care. They will keep fighting if they are 0-16. Which drives me crazy in its own way. But is what Tatum needs to do.
I expect a monster game 4. And Tatum is going to continue to mature. But I think you can look at a few games this playoff and see even more room for growth there, not as a technical player but in terms of that ball domination. I'm doubting in all those Pierce games referenced that he wasn't demanding the ball, even on a team with two other Hall of famers.
Hopefully this is a one off and we are laughing in three games.
I'm a full fledged Tatum fan boy and admittedly get very frustrated by Smart and brown, who to me are very careless players who sprinkle brilliance with insanity.
Tatum from tip was just watching the game last night. He wasn't demanding the ball. I don't mean nonsense like he didn't want it enough (a phrase that drives me insane for athletes at this level). But he wasn't demanding that the game go through him, even as playmaker. He was largely invisible out there. At times I had to check to see if he was on the floor. 7 and 36 for all the things they do to drive me crazy were demanding the game flow through them. That's the part I struggle with Tatum with. He's brilliant, but he hasn't developed the alpha mentality on nights that his shot isn't falling. Smart and Brown don't care. They will keep fighting if they are 0-16. Which drives me crazy in its own way. But is what Tatum needs to do.
I expect a monster game 4. And Tatum is going to continue to mature. But I think you can look at a few games this playoff and see even more room for growth there, not as a technical player but in terms of that ball domination. I'm doubting in all those Pierce games referenced that he wasn't demanding the ball, even on a team with two other Hall of famers.
Hopefully this is a one off and we are laughing in three games.
I don't want to get into a pissing contest - but this is an absurd statement.
Tatum has had some wonderful flashes of brilliance this post season - but if you think he's been better / more important to his team than Luca, then you're not paying attention.
Luca doesn't have half the support around him that # 0 has.
When you get your lunch money stolen by a 37 year old washed up PJ Tucker you ain’t an alpha dog yet. As Larry Bird once said your probably a sissy. Alpha Dogs don’t coast in the playoffs and they show up in the biggest games.
He's super talented - like MVP level talented. He's also young enough that he could very well shed this next piece - but right now he's more Dominique Wilkins or Karl Malone than he is Larry Bird or Michael Jordan.
It's a compliment that we're even talking about him alongside these names, he's clearly in rarified air in terms of his ability to impact a game. But he hasn't shown that he has the Bird/Jordan/Kobe killer gene yet.
It’s not like Bird didn’t have bad playoff games, particularly when he was Tatum’s age. He was terrible in Games 4 and 5 of the 1980 ECF. Pretty bad in Games 3-5 of the 1981 finals. Bad games happen. I don’t know why every time it happens there has to be a referendum on Tatum’s manhood. Particularly when he’s got a pretty established record at this point of picking himself up and atoning in the next game.
I don’t think PJT is washed either - if Milwaukee had resigned him, we’re probably not having this conversation (or maybe we’re having it a week ago instead).
Even when Bird was shit shooting in Game 3-5 in the 81 finals he still was close to a triple double in every one of those games. And those games are forgotten because the Celtics won Games 3 and 5 and went on to win the title. That’s a big difference. 10, 6, 4 in 41 minutes at home in a game needed to hold home court is absolutely pathetic.
LeBron put up a 2-18 playoff game with 10 turnovers at Tatum’s age.
This conversation is tedious.
This conversation is tedious.
Sissy…right. Definitely are not better ways to characterize his play (and character?).
Good homonym usage, though.
Tatum was horrible, but some of the above is embarrassing. You could tell he didn’t have a feel for his jumper, and the Heat were taking away driving lanes any time he put the ball down. So because of that, Tatum played hesitant/uncertain, and that’s a killer in the nba.
It lies somewhere in the middle honestly. I’m not getting into the “sissy” or “doesn’t want it enough” talk, that should only be in game threads.
But last night he was honestly embarrassing. I’ve stuck up for him in every other playoff loss, but last night was disgraceful. It’s one thing to miss open jumpers (which he did last night), it’s another thing to look like you aren’t interested in even playing.
it’s really telling that the Celtics 4th quarter run completely stopped when Tatum came back from his stinger. Say whatever you will about Tatum but he’s always seemed to make me positive impacts in every game and help the team. Last night he was actively hurting the team. That can’t ever happen again.
And I don’t know if anyone caught the verbiage of Ime when asked about the “stinger” today…”Tatum’s stinger healed very quickly and he’s a full go”. But that whole episode was a real bad look
EDIT: And I think you’re giving the Heat and their defense too much credit honestly, he looked completely out of it all game, no matter who was guarding him
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The "sissy" stuff is not only stupid, it's misogynistic and homophobic. I thought this board was better than that bullshit, but of course it isn't.
You've got about six different posters giving evidence that great players have had games like Tatum had the other night - from Pierce to Lebron James to Luka - and yet we don't get a single mea culpa from the crowd of clowns can't see the irony in their panicked accusations of sissyness every time the Celtics have a bad game or encounter the slightest adversity.
The Heat are really good. They were playing with their backs against the wall with Butler out. The Celtics have intermittently struggled to protect the ball, they also have beaten two of the best teams in the East already this playoffs.
Our cup is running over and everyone's crying about spilled milk.
You've got about six different posters giving evidence that great players have had games like Tatum had the other night - from Pierce to Lebron James to Luka - and yet we don't get a single mea culpa from the crowd of clowns can't see the irony in their panicked accusations of sissyness every time the Celtics have a bad game or encounter the slightest adversity.
The Heat are really good. They were playing with their backs against the wall with Butler out. The Celtics have intermittently struggled to protect the ball, they also have beaten two of the best teams in the East already this playoffs.
Our cup is running over and everyone's crying about spilled milk.
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There was a famous Larry Bird quote from the 1984 Finals after getting blown out by the Lakers in Game 3: "We played like sissies". I'm guessing that is where the "sissy" reference is coming from.
I agree that the term "sissy" is idiotic to describe Tatum as well as being not up to the standards of this forum. If Tatum were to be as locked in as Bird was for the remainder of the series, the Celtics will be Finals bound, so there's that.
I agree that the term "sissy" is idiotic to describe Tatum as well as being not up to the standards of this forum. If Tatum were to be as locked in as Bird was for the remainder of the series, the Celtics will be Finals bound, so there's that.
Lebron went 3-14 in a home game the Cavs lost by 32 in a series tied 2-2 when Lebron was 2 years older than Tatum is now. Everyone called him a quitter and mentally weak after that game and series. Great players have bad games in big moments. Hopefully Tatum bounces back just like he has after every other bad game he’s played for the last 4 months.
This side discussion is a little on the nuts side.
1) First, sissy is straight from the Bird quote. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend.
2) It's amusing the claim is "sissy" is both misogynistic and homophobic at the same time. I'm not sure of the etymology of the word, guessing sister. I get it's a pejorative, not sure where it tied over to be homophobic. (FWIW, I think that pejorative lacks accuracy, I'd rather fight a guy over a line in the dirt than a women motivated by protecting her family. In that context women are the nastiest and fiercest fighters there are.)
3) I think we as a group need to get our virtue signaling down. It's ok to say someone has Saturn Balls as a compliment... but that implies that balls are required or valued to do the job - which could be construed as misogynist. We can't call someone a pejorative based on anatomical parts if they are female parts - but to hell with being a decent person and not using a pejorative, just use male parts and call them a dick or an ass. That's just fine, no need to aim for being better - just use a pejorative from the ever shrinking approved list. *IS* there a politically correct way to say that Tatum is playing sans balls?
Back to basketball...
I'm not sure of appropriate terminology for what Tatum was playing with/without. I made a post about last night in the game thread, and specifically didn't reference Tatum because I thought we were mostly in agreement on the fact his play was absent something. Many others were calling out Tatum, so I didn't see the need to raise the noise level. I decline to say that Tatum was absent passion or effort. I don't see the need to use a pejorative at all, these are humans, not robots. Personally, I'm less judgmental about physical mistakes versus mental ones unless there is a pattern of physical mistakes that suggests a failure to grasp a situation (like JB getting stripped by Oladipo 4-5 times on basically the same scenario in the 4th). I think those of us (my hand is raised) who for the last year have been calling for Tatum to pass the damn ball instead of an yet another ISO, have to live with the growing pains that expectation comes with. Deep in a series against a quality team, patterns emerge, and Tatum has a pattern in how he kicks out above the circle - which is where a lot of his turn overs have come from (credit Spo/MIA scouting). He has to be given a chance to adjust back, or grow. He may not do it in time for this series, unfortunately. Similarly, other teams are now anticipating the driver getting deep into the paint, under the basket and whipping the ball out to the off hand corner (pass traveling above the baseline). MIA has picked off a few of that pass type, MIL did later in their series as well. Occasionally that works, but starting the drive assuming that corner pass is open when trapped in the paint is no longer valid. Where/how will the Cs adjust?
I do not like how Tatum was 'less' than his normal self. I'm not interested in finding a PC way to say it, or to use a pejorative at all. He needs to deliver more for the Cs to be successful, and if he can't get there this series, then it's been a great run that I hope the entire team learns from. I do think that Smart's injury is significant, and any absence of his will put even more pressure on Tatum to deliver. If he tries to go supernova, I hope it's within the confines of what made the team successful in the second half of the season.
1) First, sissy is straight from the Bird quote. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend.
2) It's amusing the claim is "sissy" is both misogynistic and homophobic at the same time. I'm not sure of the etymology of the word, guessing sister. I get it's a pejorative, not sure where it tied over to be homophobic. (FWIW, I think that pejorative lacks accuracy, I'd rather fight a guy over a line in the dirt than a women motivated by protecting her family. In that context women are the nastiest and fiercest fighters there are.)
3) I think we as a group need to get our virtue signaling down. It's ok to say someone has Saturn Balls as a compliment... but that implies that balls are required or valued to do the job - which could be construed as misogynist. We can't call someone a pejorative based on anatomical parts if they are female parts - but to hell with being a decent person and not using a pejorative, just use male parts and call them a dick or an ass. That's just fine, no need to aim for being better - just use a pejorative from the ever shrinking approved list. *IS* there a politically correct way to say that Tatum is playing sans balls?
Back to basketball...
I'm not sure of appropriate terminology for what Tatum was playing with/without. I made a post about last night in the game thread, and specifically didn't reference Tatum because I thought we were mostly in agreement on the fact his play was absent something. Many others were calling out Tatum, so I didn't see the need to raise the noise level. I decline to say that Tatum was absent passion or effort. I don't see the need to use a pejorative at all, these are humans, not robots. Personally, I'm less judgmental about physical mistakes versus mental ones unless there is a pattern of physical mistakes that suggests a failure to grasp a situation (like JB getting stripped by Oladipo 4-5 times on basically the same scenario in the 4th). I think those of us (my hand is raised) who for the last year have been calling for Tatum to pass the damn ball instead of an yet another ISO, have to live with the growing pains that expectation comes with. Deep in a series against a quality team, patterns emerge, and Tatum has a pattern in how he kicks out above the circle - which is where a lot of his turn overs have come from (credit Spo/MIA scouting). He has to be given a chance to adjust back, or grow. He may not do it in time for this series, unfortunately. Similarly, other teams are now anticipating the driver getting deep into the paint, under the basket and whipping the ball out to the off hand corner (pass traveling above the baseline). MIA has picked off a few of that pass type, MIL did later in their series as well. Occasionally that works, but starting the drive assuming that corner pass is open when trapped in the paint is no longer valid. Where/how will the Cs adjust?
I do not like how Tatum was 'less' than his normal self. I'm not interested in finding a PC way to say it, or to use a pejorative at all. He needs to deliver more for the Cs to be successful, and if he can't get there this series, then it's been a great run that I hope the entire team learns from. I do think that Smart's injury is significant, and any absence of his will put even more pressure on Tatum to deliver. If he tries to go supernova, I hope it's within the confines of what made the team successful in the second half of the season.
You can say he played like shit, because he did. Also if you don’t know the etymology of a word, look it up. No need to guess when we all have google at our finger tips.
Also Kobe used the F word to describe someone performance. Is that famous statement/assessment of his not allowed to be quoted or referenced? Asking for a friend. Of course it’s not allowed because we aren’t (generally) assholes here. I think you’ll manage just fine with the “ever shrinking approved list”.
This conversation has gone way off the rails, but both Bird and Kobe had major regrets about using those words.
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/kobebryant/status/300774349571489792
View: https://mobile.twitter.com/kobebryant/status/300774349571489792