Jerry Remy: Players should 'learn baseball language'
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I never claimed that he double downed or grumbled - but hard to take what he wrote as an actual apology when his prepared statement did not show any personal accountability.
Isn't roughly 80%+ of the "language of baseball" non-verbal? Is it at all possible this is what Remy was referring to? 1-2-3 fingers, open/closed mouth, waving of hands/arms are all part of the "language of baseball". What can a pitching coach really discuss in a timed mound visit? Can they come up with a system to cover "are you tired", "keep your shoulder in", "pitch this guy away/in, off-speed pitches/fastball etc." The pitching coach has a very small and finite number of things he is going to cover and those are likely to be repeated throughout the season. I don't care either way if they use a translator but I also don't think they need much if any english proficiency to get through a mound visit.
I agree with the minority that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. Remy never said "Speak English MFcka" yet that is now the narrative. By the way I've wanted Remy gone since the original Remdawg fan club days that he would promote endlessly on air so I am far, far from a Remy supporter.
I agree with the minority that this is making a mountain out of a molehill. Remy never said "Speak English MFcka" yet that is now the narrative. By the way I've wanted Remy gone since the original Remdawg fan club days that he would promote endlessly on air so I am far, far from a Remy supporter.
"I'm sorry if anyone was offended" is EXACTLY the apology that someone who did not INTEND to offend should say. I was talking to somebody once and raised and extended my left arm. I hit a young girl in the face. I told her immediately I was "sorry and didn't mean to hit her". She said she knew it was an accident and accepted my apology. Someone else comes up and punches her dead in the face. Do you REALLY think the two incidents are the same and should have the same consequences??? He obviously can't say he "didn't mean it" when he clearly did can he? Why should Remy offer the same apology as someone who intended to offend?
I don't know....maybe he was enlightened as to why what he said was considered offensive? Like I said, his use of passive voice shifts the blame to the audience. An apology should demonstrate accountability and remorse.
Your example makes no sense. Your apology is in active voice and connotes accountability and remorse. It's silly to argue intent as no one but the offender truly knows that. Everyone else just "believes" they know and base their opinion on that.
Finally we get a worthwhile post in this thread. Solid advice from the writing bible, still a classic despite its age.Passive voice is not just a terrible stylistic choice.
The world will be a better place when we're all more tolerant and are better writers.
If even one Westerner involved in the meeting did not speak Japanese, that meeting was always going to be in English.
Agree with BSF (and AFY) on all of the above. It's not just Vietnamese. There are sounds in Japanese (and Korean/Mandarin/Cantonese/Australian) which don't exist in English, and vice versa. The R/L in Japanese, and the th- in English are two that come immediately to mind. If you pay attention to where your tongue is in your mouth when making any word that starts with L in English, and then do the same for an R word, the correct tongue position for, say, Rakuten is somewhere in between those two. It will seem counter-intuitive while you see it sitting there spelled with an R, but if you're saying it like rah-rah Rakuten, you're saying it wrong. My wife, who lived in the US for about 6-7 years, still gets them wrong all the time in English. If you look at the romanization "rabu" you may think that's what you do to a baseball to get a better grip; in reality it could mean either love or lab(oratory). We do a lot of rabuingu in the rabu rabu.
Keep in mind also, @Al Zarilla , that the folks in your meetings were probably well educated professionals who all went to college and maybe even studied abroad. By the time a guy like Ma-kun gets to high school, his full time job is playing baseball. I'm not saying he's stupid but these guys sleep through class like any other student athlete. Actually, the "language of baseball" is probably the language he speaks best.
I don't mind "those who were offended" apologies for passive voice. I mind them because of the implication there is a substantial group that weren't or shouldn't have been offended. I also mind them because it is not merely the "offended" who are owed apologies.
That's interesting, because In post 124 you stated that "He's not sorry for his comments, and he's never going to give in." Now you're trying to claim that he did apologize and that it should be enough.
So which is it? Did he make a meaningful apology? Or do his words indicate that he's not sorry and he's never going to give in?
I took Remy's comments during the broadcast as being classic old-player disdain for how the game changed more than anything else. But the fact that I wasn't offended doesn't mean I can't recognize when someone steps in it. And because of the times we live in and the accelerator of social media, it was pretty clear that it would blow up into something bigger.
In that context, I viewed Remy's mixed apology as a surprising mistake for a trained media personality. And to be clear, the "mistake" was the construction (and tone) he used on NESN, because it can easily be seen as a grudging statement made under pressure. If he had just stuck the way he framed it on Twitter, he'd have been fine.
I don't think of that analysis as being "lazy and wrong" and it has nothing to do with rooting for laundry. But to each his own.
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Everyone else "
He made an apology and it should be enough. He's not going to give you any more of an apology because he doesn't owe you one. He's sorry his opinion offended people. He's not sorry he had an opinion. It's actually not that cryptic. He isn't one one making this a three day thing. You are.
Ahem. The passive is not inherently a "terrible stylistic choice" any more than the active voice is. They're both perfectly valid tools of expression, each with a role to play. The active voice is the right choice more often than the passive, but then, the indicative mood is the right choice more often than the interrogative, and nobody goes around talking about how the interrogative mood is a terrible stylistic choice.Passive voice is not just a terrible stylistic choice.
If the passive was the wrong choice here, it's because it gives the impression that Remy is trying to evade responsibility by removing himself from the story. And that (as you suggest) is not a stylistic issue but an ethical one.
Also, Strunk and White were pompous nincompoops, and their book sucks.
Wait, what? Now you're saying that everyone in the world should have the exact same opinion as you?
DDB can certainly speak for himself, but I read that as Remy implying/inferring his own belief that few people could/should have been offended by his comments.
Leaping from that to saying DDB saying that everyone should think as he does would require a human cannonball landing onto a trampoline and then springing into the launch system of a catapult.
Try German. In subordinate and dependent clauses the verb comes last. At one point in my life I could think in French and I got along pretty well in Italian but my German was basically composed of a large vocabulary.
Right, thanks Yaz. Not everyone has to agree with me. But an apology is the wrong place to try to note, in a backhanded way, that lots of people agree with you.
If that's the point you want to make, don't apologize. If you apologize, then apologize. If you think you have nothing to apologize for, then don't. Halfway is shit.
Yeah, I know. It's just that that passive-voice shibboleth is a pet peeve of mine, and anyway, I thought it might be fun to argue about grammar for a while as a break from arguing about Remdawg's woes.
Not for nothing, but drop by "you're wrong but I'll drop it posts" are bullshit. If you have a point to make, make it. I can take it. If you make a good point, I'll say I was wrong. If you don't I'll respond. Why wouldn't this thread be an obviously appropriate place to discuss Jerry Remy's apology?
10 years ago, coach/mentor Johnny Pesky was banned from the Red Sox dugout.
Now, we have translators making mound visits.
And announcers are forced to apologize because they question the rules.
Now, we have translators making mound visits.
And announcers are forced to apologize because they question the rules.
FWIW, as an out-of-town fan who rarely watches NESN broadcasts, I don't get the love so many Sox fans have for Jerry Remy. I assume it's comfortable familiarity along with the association with 2004 and the Epstein era. I find his voice grating and his insight nothing special. It's hard to believe that NESN can't do better.
He should show remorse for having an opinion? What? And it's "silly" to argue intent? Really? Spend any time in a courtroom lately? Count how many times the word intended to, intent, or intentions comes up throughout the day. Then maybe you would rethink that ridiculous statement.
I really thought all this PC bullshit couldn't possible get any worse. Now, you not only have to apologize for having an opinion that "offends" someone, but you ALSO have to apologize about the WAY you apologize, too. Un-fucking-believable.
And my example , and maybe I should have been clearer, is that not one single punishment fits every crime. What worked for me obviously wouldn't cut it for him as he clearly intended to hit her. I did not. Remy did not intend offense. But it did. He was forced to apologize and he clearly did not want to, but he did. He doesn't owe anybody anything else just because you don't care for how he apologized.
You're talking about the company that employs Steve Lyons and ditched Orsillo for O'Brien. I'm not sure it's an issue of "can't."
Well, I watch ESPN broadcasts and I never especially cared for Remy and it got to the point where Remy/Orsillo were a joke. Then they gave DOB a sock and in between his myriad of getting the count/outs/runs/etc wrong and his "hoovering up", I think it is time to start anew. His slang aside, I could probably deal with Eckersley.
Something I've learned: when you read "PC", you can freely substitute "not-being-a-garbage-person" and the real meaning intimated becomes apparent. Every time. It's remarkable.
When your opinions suck, people tell you your opinions suck and your opinions can impact others' willingness to do business with you or put up with your shit. Contrition and understanding why your opinions suck, then, become the road to both being a decent person and keeping your business interests afloat. Strange, huh?
As a former interpreter for a minor league baseball team I can tell you that "the language of baseball" as I experienced it was "baseball English" which is so replete with jargon, slang and idiosyncratic phrasing that even as a native speaker of English there were times when I struggled to understand exactly what the pitching coach was trying to say. I guess you could say baseball people share a common language, but only in that baseball English itself might be classifiable as a distinct dialect of the language. This is not a factor that eases communication between languages. People who can't even understand basic English are not going to be magically superior at understanding jargon-filled dialects.
While these linguistic barriers are significant let's also remember that baseball teams are made up of baseball players, not PhD candidates. The Japanese players I worked with had quite literally done little but play baseball since they were prepubescent. Japanese children talented at sports usually practice or play sports 7 days a week throughout most of their childhood. Academics is usually far down on their list of priorities. Those that get drafted to play pro end up extending this lifestyle into adulthood. So while it's true that Japanese typically struggle to learn English, let's be clear, these athletes are much less knowledgeable about English - or anything else outside of baseball - than your typical Japanese. They also have also not lived a lifestyle that in anyway encouraged the type of intellectual curiosity that might facilitate independent language learning. So while a team may want these players to learn English, expecting them to learn it is ridiculous and misses the obvious point that while they are uniquely qualified for the rare skill of playing pro baseball, they are quite often hopelessly unprepared for the seemingly simpler challenge of learning a foreign language.
It should also go without saying that their American coaches and teammates are not themselves well prepared to understand the challenges inherent to intercultural communication. One coach on my team was from Louisiana, and while he was a likeable and otherwise intelligent man, when he would attempt to talk directly to the Japanese players he wasn't aware enough to alter his standard phrasing (including Cajun flourishes) to in any way increase understanding. The manager was even worse, sometimes approaching a player and rattling on for 5 minutes without allowing me a single pause to translate. It was pretty clear in my time in this job that even with an interpreter there was plenty being missed between the players and the coaches, and that there is -in general- a bigger need for this type of assistance than was being provided. Remy's idea that there is something wrong with providing interpretation - when it obviously benefits understanding - is a bit hard to comprehend and I'm not sure how else it can be explained without recognizing an underlying jingoism.
You don't know anything about me. Nothing. I simply LOVE how anytime anyone disagrees with someone like you, they are a piece of shit and they suck and blah blah blah. And liberals preach tolerance.
Liberals have as much tolerance as Al Sharpton has Reverence.Actually, to me "PC" means that that person has a mind of their own. They don't agree with something just because it's the "acceptable" thing to do. I follow my own conscience. And it served me VERY well. In life and in business by the way. People knew what they were getting when they dealt with me. And they were more than ok with it. I moved my business from East Hartford to Enfield one summer. 40% of my customers drove the extra distance to still do business with me. Why? Because i was a rarity in the automotive business. HONEST. No. Not everyone agreed with the things I said. Some were upset about it. But they knew when I said something, it was 100% what I believed. Not what society told me I SHOULD believe. And I learned LONG ago I don't give one shit about what people think of me. But I'll tell you what. I was absolutely SLAMMED on this very site. Twice. Once for not thinking you should wish cancer on ANYBODY. And the other for not thinking it's OK to make fun of fat people (or skinny, or tall, or short). I know. What kind of asshole must I be to believe those things huh?? My opinion has long been this: When it's ok to make fun of EVERYONE, let me know. When It's NOT ok to make fun of ANYONE, let me know. I don't care which one. But pick one. No more of this it's ok for SOME, but not for OTHERS bullshit we have now.
I just wanted to add something. I did something I should NOT have done regarding the cancer issue. I singled someone out and should not have. So I owe Kenny Fing Powers an apology. I am sorry Kenny. He wasn't the only one saying it. And he has a right to his opinion just as much as I do. I wasn't wrong in feeling the way I did. I was wrong in the WAY I expressed my view. Someone said that we don't know him, the one who had cancer. Isn't going to change our lives one bit whether he lives or dies. True. But there was a thread where someone was asking for donations for his grandson(?). I don't know him. My life isn't going to change no matter what happens to him. Would it have been alright to go in that thread and say "fuck him" like what happened in the other thread?? Of course not. That's my entire point. Make the rules the same. It's ok to laugh or make fun of EVERYONE, or It's not ok to make fun of ANYONE. This is the shit that pisses me off. Make the rules the same. Not pick and choose according to what SOME people think is OK.
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Would you like some liniment? It looks like you sprained your shoulder while patting yourself on the back for your moral superiority. You Americans are a terrifying lot of far right wing nutjobs.
I read this screed (well, about six lines of it) in Hulk Hogan's voice and it made me giggle uncontrollably.
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Unfortunately the world is a bit more complex than this. It requires one engage in a certain amount of reflexive thinking about behavior, so that one is not, however inadvertently, a complete asshole, no matter how honest or competent one is.
Good luck, Kun.
There's a fallacy the MAGA wing of the American political spectrum tends to fall into (and I'm not saying you are or aren't a Trump voter, that's not the point here), which is to think that these two sentences express a single, virtuous thought. In fact they express two very distinct thoughts, one of which is indeed virtuous, the other morally irrelevant at best. It is absolutely a good thing to believe whatever you say, but the fact that you believe it does not make what you say good, or even make it good that you say it. And the fact that society is telling you to believe something else doesn't make it good either. The goodness (or lack thereof) lies in the content of your speech.
Remy shouldn't apologize "for having an opinion", he should apologize for using his high profile job to broadcast (in more ways than one) ignorance that paints a group of people (Japanese pitchers) in an unfair light.
Whatever his personal opinion is, he is in a position to influence public discourse. That's a lot of responsibility, relatively speaking. He should act accordingly and acknowledge when he messes up. That's all.
Whatever his personal opinion is, he is in a position to influence public discourse. That's a lot of responsibility, relatively speaking. He should act accordingly and acknowledge when he messes up. That's all.
It's the fact that he considers himself a left winger that makes America terrifying. It's an entire country oblivious to the fact that 99% of the population falls to the right of Pinochet on the political spectrum.
When it comes to issues about immigrants, sexuality, race, religion,etc., the world is simple. But add in ONLY the size and/or weight of someone, and all of a sudden the world is "too complex." Sure. But then again, only a "complete asshole" would want to include people of size or height anyway, right?
I don't want or need your luck. You will. Better save as much as you can. Trust me. You are going to need every last bit of it someday. I sincerely hope for your sake it's just not too late when you realize this.
Adios.
Not picking on anyone in particular, but if you're posting on the main baseball board of the Sons of Sam Horn and words such as right-wing, left-wing, political spectrum, sexuality, race, religion, MAGA, liberal and Trump (among many others written above) are making their way from your brain to the page, you are posting in the wrong forum. I understand that lurkers can not access an appropriate forum for such discussion on this site, but that doesn't mean it's going to be allowed to happen here.
There are always going to be politically charged topics in sports, entertainment, etc., and it's of course ok to have an opinion on Remy's situation, but when talk swings to whether or not to have a national language, and then to whatever the hell happened above, that's a bridge way, way too far for the main board.
There are always going to be politically charged topics in sports, entertainment, etc., and it's of course ok to have an opinion on Remy's situation, but when talk swings to whether or not to have a national language, and then to whatever the hell happened above, that's a bridge way, way too far for the main board.
I can understand folks being upset at Remy's comment during the broadcast. It was ill-informed at best, and didn't really add anything to the broadcast.
Parsing the apology posted on twitter, however, is nit-picking to the nth degree. He did apologize; whether each individual wants to accept that apology is up to them. But neither the offense nor the apology seem worthy of some of the criticism that is being levied towards him. Time to move on....
Parsing the apology posted on twitter, however, is nit-picking to the nth degree. He did apologize; whether each individual wants to accept that apology is up to them. But neither the offense nor the apology seem worthy of some of the criticism that is being levied towards him. Time to move on....
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