Joe Namath: Legit Star or Overrated NY Bum? Off Season Time killing thread

[reggiecleveland]

I caught the Joe Namath Bio n NFL network. As a kid growing up he, and OJ would have been the only NFL guys I knew about since they were crossover celebrities we would see on talk shows. I was a comic nerd and the Marvel Universe has references to Nathath. I think the Thing threw a guy in the river for bad mouthing Namath.

His appearances on Fox and Friends, and "I want to kiss you" made me see him as an empty creation of hype, but I learned things I didn't know:

He took on the NFL over player freedom, his right to own a bar

He got hurt in college, and before his knee injury was exceptionally fast and elusive.

His arm strength is still ranked highly by football experts, as are his throwing mechanics

He never had a coach that did much with the passing game. They literally drew plays up in the huddle. Joe Bill Walsh was just getting started with the Bengals. It would have been something to see Namath with somebody able to get the best out of him.

This article says he was a bridge between eras, and his ability to avoid sacks, like Brady lead to more incompletions. Also when he played the more modern short passing game, like the superbowl win, he was excellent, but the era, and his rep as a gunslinger had him taking chances down field all the time.

http://www.footballperspective.com/joe-namath-has-become-footballs-most-misunderstood-quarterback/

Thoughts on Joe Willie?

 

[Kliq]

The article raises some good points; but I still think things like winning the playoffs (zero playoff wins after SBIII) and having a productive post-age-30 career are important to valuing a players' overall career. Most people don't think Namath was a bum, but even after reading that piece I'm still not convinced he isn't the worst QB ever put in the Hall of Fame. He had a few good years, had a memorable playoff win and had a big, NY personality. The article argues that his low completion percentage is in part due to his low sack rate, since he was getting rid of the ball to avoid being sacked. Couldn't the same argument be used to discuss his high interception rate? That instead of taking a sack to avoid a turnover, he forced the ball somewhere where it got picked off?

 

[tims4wins]

Great article, thanks for linking. Looking at his stats I always figured he was overrated, but that certainly made me reconsider my opinion.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I think his off the court contributions, getting the AFL legitimized, making the NFL take a step up in consciousness, how injured he was his entire career, get him in the HOF, but yeah barely.

I used to think he was a below average guy that was famous, and took credit for the Colts being overrated. But, now I think he was for brief 3 year span the best QB, and a pivotal guy in pro FB history.

I am too injured to work out and NFL network is free on my cable deal, so I am watching alot of the history stuff. Many of those old time games were 13-10, 10-6, a TD was like a goal in soccer. Field conditions were terrible, guys drilled the QB late all the time, etc. So many of those old coaches looked at long INT like a punt.

Side note of the biggest names is sport when I became a fan, three Ali, Namath, Orr, all were sent out to compete it what could only be described as medical malpractice by today's standards.

 

[Van Everyman]

The HBO documentary, Namath, a few years ago was excellent – they were pretty adamant that the college knee injury changed him forever. He was probably lucky to even play again under the circumstances.

 

[Super Nomario]

He never had a coach that did much with the passing game. They literally drew plays up in the huddle. Joe Walsh was just getting started with the Bengals. It would have been something to see Namath with somebody able to get the best out of him.

?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1uWA7VPGiE
I know Dr. Z was always a big fan. The Jets' ranks in points / yards suggest they had a very good offense when he was their leading passer:
'65-'69: top 7 in points, top 5 in yards every year
'70-'71: Namath hurt, slip to 17th / 23rd in points (14th / 26th in yards)
'72: Namath back, 2nd in points and yards
'73: Namath hurt, 17th in points, 16th in yards
'74-'75: Namath back (but now 31-32 with a bunch of injury history): 11th / 14th in points, 13th / 14th in yards)
'76: washed (4 TD, 16 INT ... yeesh)

So not a long career but the Jets offenses were among the best in the league when he was healthy and below-average when he was hurt.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I guess life was good so far

 

[bankshot1]

Namath came in the AFL with no-knees, no mobility, but he had a rifle for an arm and could zip a pass into tight quarters with the best of them. He was probably the best passer in the mid-60s AFL. I remember a game at Fenway in the mid-60s where he passed for about 200 yards in the 4th quarter (when 250 yards was a big total for a game), leading the Jets back from down 24-7, to a 24-24 tie game. In context, (lies, damn lies, stats) he was a very good QB.

 

[joe dokes]

I am biased by the fog of youth because he (along with Walt Frazier) owned NY sports when I was a kid. But I recall his dead-cat bounce year of 1974. He had been hurt over and over in the previous several seasons. The Jets weren't very good. Somehow, after starting 1-7, they won their last 6. The first of those 6 wins was in OT against the Giants in the Yale Bowl (Yankee Stadium was under reconstruction and Giants Stadium was being built). Namath ran in the game tying TD on a naked bootleg. Game was blacked out on TV, but on radio, you could hear his ex-teammate/color man Dave Herman shout, "Joe dont do it" or somesuch. Point being: He was crippled.

Video here at about 6:10-6:15 or so
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5wjtl0

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I must admit. I am from a generation that remembers him most for his infamous sideline interview with Suzy Kolber.

https://youtu.be/Gc65NC44dSk

 

[terrynever]

Looking back over Namath’s entire career, the thing that sticks with me is the first pro contract he signed, $400,000. He changed the pro football world right there, by signing with the AFL. Joe made the new league legit. The rest of the package was pure entertainment.
But if you could focus for a moment on his throwing, the quick release, great touch, and arm strength, very few QBs threw like Namath in the latter half of the 1960s. Bart Starr was a technician. Don Meredith, same.
Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton were scramblers. Sonny Jurgensen probably came closest to matching Joe for release and touch. Dan Marino showed similar skills coming out of Pitt in 1983.
As a pure thrower, young Joe Namath made you sit up and notice the perfect spiral in an era where the running game still ruled. It was painful to watch him after 1971.
If Namath were a senior at Alabama right now, he would be the first pick in the 2020 draft.

 

[JokersWildJIMED]

I must admit. I am from a generation that remembers him most for his infamous sideline interview with Suzy Kolber.

https://youtu.be/Gc65NC44dSk

I guess a lot of people remember him for this, which is really too bad and a consequence of his alcoholism..he has explained this numerous times and apologized. He recommitted to sobriety and turned his life around. Namath is truly one of the good guys.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Looking back over Namath’s entire career, the thing that sticks with me is the first pro contract he signed, $400,000. He changed the pro football world right there, by signing with the AFL. Joe made the new league legit. The rest of the package was pure entertainment.
But if you could focus for a moment on his throwing, the quick release, great touch, and arm strength, very few QBs threw like Namath in the latter half of the 1960s. Bart Starr was a technician. Don Meredith, same.
Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton were scramblers. Sonny Jurgensen probably came closest to matching Joe for release and touch. Dan Marino showed similar skills coming out of Pitt in 1983.
As a pure thrower, young Joe Namath made you sit up and notice the perfect spiral in an era where the running game still ruled. It was painful to watch him after 1971.
If Namath were a senior at Alabama right now, he would be the first pick in the 2020 draft.

I agree about Namath, a fearless QB who might throw 4 interceptions, then come back and beat you. Great arm, as you say. One nit, I think Staubach, and even Tarkenton are diminished if you call them scramblers. It’s like today if one called Russell Wilson a scrambler. Wilson and Staubach are/were also excellent downfield throwers. Another thing, Johnny Unitas was generally considered the best quarterback until Brady, Peyton, Marino, etc. came along. Maybe he was too far back for consideration in your post.

 

[terrynever]

I agree about Namath, a fearless QB who might throw 4 interceptions, then come back and beat you. Great arm, as you say. One nit, I think Staubach, and even Tarkenton are diminished if you call them scramblers. It’s like today if one called Russell Wilson a scrambler. Wilson and Staubach are/were also excellent downfield throwers. Another thing, Johnny Unitas was generally considered the best quarterback until Brady, Peyton, Marino, etc. came along. Maybe he was too far back for consideration in your post.

Good points. Staubach threw with great velocity and touch. My memory of Tark’s arm is limited. Mainly I remember his famous scrambles and then finding a wide-open receiver on the far side of the field.
Agree on Unitas but I did not want to go all Old Guy on our audience. Unitas drew up plays in the dirt!
I did almost mention Sammy Baugh before realizing I could be banned for such blasphemy. Sammy was the first true thrower.

 

[NortheasternPJ]

Can we add a poll to this? I'd love to see what people vote and then read responses bases upon if they ever actually saw Namath played or if they've seen anything that's not a best of on NFL network.

I have no idea, I've never seen the guy play, his career numbers are suspect, the NFL is like living on a different planet than when he played. The NFL more than any other sport should be separated into different eras. Hell, we've had at least two separate eras since Tom Brady started playing thanks to Bill Polian.

 

[terrynever]

Can we add a poll to this? I'd love to see what people vote and then read responses bases upon if they ever actually saw Namath played or if they've seen anything that's not a best of on NFL network.

I have no idea, I've never seen the guy play, his career numbers are suspect, the NFL is like living on a different planet than when he played. The NFL more than any other sport should be separated into different eras. Hell, we've had at least two separate eras since Tom Brady started playing thanks to Bill Polian.

This is fair. Football was a much different game 100 years ago, 50 years ago, even 20 years ago. You cannot compare the eras. But greatness transcends time. Namath’s arm was a rare gift.

 

[Philip Jeff Frye]

One thing I always think about in HOF debates like this is that it is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Statistical Excellence. Namath may not qualify for the later but he certainly qualifies for the former. I'm sure the guy in Cooperstown who came up with the name in the 1930s wasn't thinking deeply about this, but "Fame" implies something beyond mere numbers or even on field achievement. It implies capturing a position in the cultural Zeitgeist for whatever reason. Namath was not a dominant player for more than a couple of seasons, but he was far more important to professional football than, say, Bert Jones or Kenny Anderson. Some of that was playing in New York versus Baltimore or Cincinnati, some of it was his personality, but it would be impossible to tell the history of the NFL around the time of the merger without mentioning Namath and that gets him into the Hall of Fame in my mind.

 

[bankshot1]

Scrambling seemed more a designed part of Tarkenton's game than it was of Staubach's. Staubach scrambled when he had to and was good at it, but IMO Tarkenton used it strategically to find receivers.

 

[Seels]

I met Namath in the early 90s. He let me wear his Super Bowl ring and was super nice. I've met a decent amount of athletes and out of all of them Namath was among the nicest most genuine dudes.

 

[bankshot1]

Re the poll-HoF but due mostly to the SB3 win. He doesn't back up the guarantee and win that game I'm not sure he gets in. Not many QBs with losing records are in the HoF.

 

[reggiecleveland]

I will give Namath credit for calling daily fantasy gambling, though it has probably kept him off NFL games since he said it.

 

[Spacemans Bong]

I am biased by the fog of youth because he (along with Walt Frazier) owned NY sports when I was a kid. But I recall his dead-cat bounce year of 1974. He had been hurt over and over in the previous several seasons. The Jets weren't very good. Somehow, after starting 1-7, they won their last 6. The first of those 6 wins was in OT against the Giants in the Yale Bowl (Yankee Stadium was under reconstruction and Giants Stadium was being built). Namath ran in the game tying TD on a naked bootleg. Game was blacked out on TV, but on radio, you could hear his ex-teammate/color man Dave Herman shout, "Joe dont do it" or somesuch. Point being: He was crippled.

Video here at about 6:10-6:15 or so
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x5wjtl0

My knees hurt watching this.

The testimonials from people here who saw him play make this point, but just to add: I came across a 1970 guide to pro football a few years ago and the Namath section was pure gushing. Best QB in the NFL without a doubt, what an arm, etc.

 

[reggiecleveland]

My knees hurt watching this.

The testimonials from people here who saw him play make this point, but just to add: I came across a 1970 guide to pro football a few years ago and the Namath section was pure gushing. Best QB in the NFL without a doubt, what an arm, etc.

As I go down this nostalgic tour of the first sports celebrities I remember I can't help but reflect on how playing hurt was made heroic, and normal. Without doubt I should have sat out at least one year I played on a bad knee as a college basketball player, and I played dozen of games I shouldn't have. In some ways draining my knee, limping out there made me feel cool. I remember so many times stories about Orr, Namath, and Ali in Manilla, where they were asked if they would go out, where the decision was left to the athlete, and really well written (no to go full "get off me lawn" but there was a time sports writers were actually writers, not simply people with access) platitudes about the heart of champions digging deep, finding that extra reserve, etc.

Also to court blasphemy, QBs in the 70s were almost all wrecked. The rules did not protect them like today. Without the (very sensible) rule changes no way Brady survives to his second set of SB wins.

 

[joe dokes]

Looking back over Namath’s entire career, the thing that sticks with me is the first pro contract he signed, $400,000. He changed the pro football world right there, by signing with the AFL. Joe made the new league legit. The rest of the package was pure entertainment.
But if you could focus for a moment on his throwing, the quick release, great touch, and arm strength, very few QBs threw like Namath in the latter half of the 1960s. Bart Starr was a technician. Don Meredith, same.
Roger Staubach and Fran Tarkenton were scramblers. Sonny Jurgensen probably came closest to matching Joe for release and touch. Dan Marino showed similar skills coming out of Pitt in 1983.
As a pure thrower, young Joe Namath made you sit up and notice the perfect spiral in an era where the running game still ruled. It was painful to watch him after 1971.
If Namath were a senior at Alabama right now, he would be the first pick in the 2020 draft.

I always thought Marino reminded me most of Namath. Quick release, strong-arm, and immobile, but quick, light feet in the pocket. (Although Marino was immobile naturally, and lost the quick feet when he lost his Achilles).

1971 was the year that Namath hurt his knee (again) trying to make a tackle on a fumble return in the first exhibition game (out of 6(!) in a 14-game season), after a season in which he missed all but the first 4 games because of a broken wrist. 10-year old me was distraught.
https://www.nytimes.com/1971/08/08/archives/namath-hurts-knee-lost-at-least-till-november-operation-today-star.html
And that referenece to the great Matt Snell.....turns out he never had another regular season carry after that Achilles injury. 'Twas ever thus.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

I always thought Marino reminded me most of Namath. Quick release, strong-arm, and immobile, but quick, light feet in the pocket. (Although Marino was immobile naturally, and lost the quick feet when he lost his Achilles).

Never saw Namath, but Marino's pocket mobility always awed me. So thoroughly and completely slow, but always aware of and able to sidestep any single rusher who broke through the line. From 1983 to 1990, his "per 16" averages were 562 passes and 13 sacks. In the back half of his career he was sacked more, thought still only 22 scaks per 16. For perspective, Tom Brady through his career averaged a similar number of attempts per 16 (560), but gets sacked more than twice as often (28). And Brady has great pocket mobility, too.

 

[j-man]

joe is a great guy someone i would love to have a beer with but he is only in the HOF for 2 reasons
1 played in NY
2 Won Super Bowl 3
which if the colts would had not slept through the 1st haif they win by 14

the HOF Meadia has a bias towerd big city teams

case in point on denver
rod smith shouild be a HOF has stats better than Michael Irvin and the rings
Randy Gradishar shouild also be in the HOF

• 7× Pro Bowl (1975, 1977–1979, 1981–1983)
• 2× First-team All-Pro (1977, 1978)
• 3× Second-team All-Pro (1979, 1981, 1983)
• 7× All-AFC selection (1976–1979, 1981–1983)
• NFL Defensive Player of the Year (1978)

[TH]Tackles:[/TH]

2,049

Pro Football Weekly 's personnel scout Joel Buchsbaum wrote that "there are quite a few scouts who will tell you that former Broncos ILB Randy Gradishar was almost as good, even as good, as Jack Lambert" and "unlike Lambert, Gradishar was not a flashy headhunter, just a great anticipator who was a deadly tackler and great short-yardage defender

When naming the top linbeackers ever, Buchsbaum wrote, concerning Gradishar, "Maybe the smartest and most underrated ever. Had rare instincts, was faster than Lambert and very effective in short-yardage and goal-line situations. The fact he is not in the Hall of Fame is a shame and may be attributed to the fact he was a sure tackler but not a lights-out hitter or look-at-me type of player."[26] In 2006 was named by Riddell author Jonathan Rand as one of the Top 25 linebackers of all-time.[27]
Pro Football Weekly published these comments collected from NFL scouts, "Superior diagnostician with exceptional strength, balance, tackling form and very good lateral mobility. Not as flashy or brutal as some ILBs but means almost as much to Denver's defense as Walter Payton does to Chicago's offense" and "Is most dominant defender in AFC when healthy. Although not as brutal as Butkus or Bergey, he's strong at the point of attack, does a superb job of playing off blocks and getting to the ball, gets good depth on his pass drops and is consistently excellent"[28]

i bet if randy was in pittsurbugrh dallas GB or NY he wouild be in

 

[OCST]

Re the poll-HoF but due mostly to the SB3 win. He doesn't back up the guarantee and win that game I'm not sure he gets in. Not many QBs with losing records are in the HoF.

If he doesn't back up that guarantee and win that game the AFL probably can't force the merger and likely folds, and there would be no Patriots. So yeah, I think he deserves a place in the HOF, in much the same way that, say, Curt Flood does IMO.

 

[OCST]

One thing I always think about in HOF debates like this is that it is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Statistical Excellence. Namath may not qualify for the later but he certainly qualifies for the former. I'm sure the guy in Cooperstown who came up with the name in the 1930s wasn't thinking deeply about this, but "Fame" implies something beyond mere numbers or even on field achievement. It implies capturing a position in the cultural Zeitgeist for whatever reason. Namath was not a dominant player for more than a couple of seasons, but he was far more important to professional football than, say, Bert Jones or Kenny Anderson. Some of that was playing in New York versus Baltimore or Cincinnati, some of it was his personality, but it would be impossible to tell the history of the NFL around the time of the merger without mentioning Namath and that gets him into the Hall of Fame in my mind.

Agree 100%.

 

[OCST]

I think his off the court contributions, getting the AFL legitimized, making the NFL take a step up in consciousness, how injured he was his entire career, get him in the HOF, but yeah barely.

I used to think he was a below average guy that was famous, and took credit for the Colts being overrated. But, now I think he was for brief 3 year span the best QB, and a pivotal guy in pro FB history.

I am too injured to work out and NFL network is free on my cable deal, so I am watching alot of the history stuff. Many of those old time games were 13-10, 10-6, a TD was like a goal in soccer. Field conditions were terrible, guys drilled the QB late all the time, etc. So many of those old coaches looked at long INT like a punt.

Side note of the biggest names is sport when I became a fan, three Ali, Namath, Orr, all were sent out to compete it what could only be described as medical malpractice by today's standards.

Off topic, and I'm really trying not to be a get-off-my-lawn type here, but I think I enjoyed this game more than what we have now.

Now, if it's possible, the game is too fast. With the short passing game, the de-emphasis of the running game, and the ongoing rule changes to disadvantage defense in favor of offense, it's becoming a track meet. The players are so much faster, field conditions are better (Oakland aside, no more playing on baseball dirt, many games are on fast-track turf), the plays are over so quickly. Also the rules keep getting more complex and the game's getting away from its simple roots. For both of these reasons it's pretty much impossible to officiate football now.

It's even worse in college. Big 12 games are a joke. The defenses might as well not even be on the field. I'd much rather watch 13-10 on a muddy track where every possession is crucial, than 51-47 and a failed possession is a FG instead of a TD.

/end rant

 

[bankshot1]

If he doesn't back up that guarantee and win that game the AFL probably can't force the merger and likely folds, and there would be no Patriots. So yeah, I think he deserves a place in the HOF, in much the same way that, say, Curt Flood does IMO.

Thats a misconception.
The NFL and AFL agreed to the merger 3 years before SB3 was played. But the Jets win gave the AFL almost instant national crediibility. The real impetus to the merger was the AFL bidding for the same college players and raiding the NFL for talent, and driving up costs, and the AFL owners in general had deeper pockets than the NFL owners and were prepared to fund losses. And they had Al Davis As I recall it was the battle/bidding war for John Brodie (QB 49ers) that eventually led the NFL to want to merge.

 

[terrynever]

Thats a misconception.
The NFL and AFL agreed to the merger 3 years before SB3 was played. But the Jets win gave the AFL almost instant national crediibility. The real impetus to the merger was the AFL bidding for the same college players and raiding the NFL for talent, and driving up costs, and the AFL owners in general had deeper pockets than the NFL owners and were prepared to fund losses. And they had Al Davis As I recall it was the battle/bidding war for John Brodie (QB 49ers) that eventually led the NFL to want to merge.

Signing Namath in 1964 really put the AFL on the map. That was such a fun war with teams hiding players in motels for days on end until they signed. And the AFL really opened up the passing game, forcing the NFL to respond.

 

[Eddie Jurak]

One thing I always think about in HOF debates like this is that it is the Hall of FAME, not the Hall of Statistical Excellence. Namath may not qualify for the later but he certainly qualifies for the former. I'm sure the guy in Cooperstown who came up with the name in the 1930s wasn't thinking deeply about this, but "Fame" implies something beyond mere numbers or even on field achievement. It implies capturing a position in the cultural Zeitgeist for whatever reason. Namath was not a dominant player for more than a couple of seasons, but he was far more important to professional football than, say, Bert Jones or Kenny Anderson. Some of that was playing in New York versus Baltimore or Cincinnati, some of it was his personality, but it would be impossible to tell the history of the NFL around the time of the merger without mentioning Namath and that gets him into the Hall of Fame in my mind.

This is a great point, even though we all focus on talent being the key to HoF and bemoan players who shouldn't make the cut getting in. I don't even think that is wrong - most of the unworthy guys who somehow sqeak into the HoF anyway aren't guys who had that kind of geberational impact on the game. No question Joe deserves his place.

 

[reggiecleveland]

[/QUOTE]

.If Namath were a senior at Alabama right now, he would be the first pick in the 2020 draft.
[/QUOTE]

Shocking seeing what he was pre injury. Pretty impressive, especially considering the time, conference he played in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7cgdDY0zho

 

[terrynever]

The young, healthy Joe Namath could have led Oklahoma’s 2019 offense. That video reminds us how mobile he was before the college knee injury.

 

[terrynever]

Story detailing his first knee injury. Torn ligament. Bear Bryant put him back in the next week.

https://www.al.com/sports/2016/10/alcom_vintage_looking_back_at_2.html

 

[Rough Carrigan]

joe is a great guy someone i would love to have a beer with but he is only in the HOF for 2 reasons
1 played in NY
2 Won Super Bowl 3
which if the colts would had not slept through the 1st haif they win by 14

the HOF Meadia has a bias towerd big city teams

case in point on denver
rod smith shouild be a HOF has stats better than Michael Irvin and the rings
Randy Gradishar shouild also be in the HOF

• 7× Pro Bowl (1975, 1977–1979, 1981–1983)
• 2× First-team All-Pro (1977, 1978)
• 3× Second-team All-Pro (1979, 1981, 1983)
• 7× All-AFC selection (1976–1979, 1981–1983)
• NFL Defensive Player of the Year (1978)

[TH]Tackles:[/TH]

2,049

Pro Football Weekly 's personnel scout Joel Buchsbaum wrote that "there are quite a few scouts who will tell you that former Broncos ILB Randy Gradishar was almost as good, even as good, as Jack Lambert" and "unlike Lambert, Gradishar was not a flashy headhunter, just a great anticipator who was a deadly tackler and great short-yardage defender

When naming the top linbeackers ever, Buchsbaum wrote, concerning Gradishar, "Maybe the smartest and most underrated ever. Had rare instincts, was faster than Lambert and very effective in short-yardage and goal-line situations. The fact he is not in the Hall of Fame is a shame and may be attributed to the fact he was a sure tackler but not a lights-out hitter or look-at-me type of player."[26] In 2006 was named by Riddell author Jonathan Rand as one of the Top 25 linebackers of all-time.[27]
Pro Football Weekly published these comments collected from NFL scouts, "Superior diagnostician with exceptional strength, balance, tackling form and very good lateral mobility. Not as flashy or brutal as some ILBs but means almost as much to Denver's defense as Walter Payton does to Chicago's offense" and "Is most dominant defender in AFC when healthy. Although not as brutal as Butkus or Bergey, he's strong at the point of attack, does a superb job of playing off blocks and getting to the ball, gets good depth on his pass drops and is consistently excellent"[28]

i bet if randy was in pittsurbugrh dallas GB or NY he wouild be in

I wonder if the way those Denver teams got destroyed in Super Bowls in the 80's is coloring everyone's perception of players on their defense.

 

[bankshot1]

With all due respect j-man the Colts did nothing against the Jets D that day.

I do agree with your conclusion about SB3 and Joe's entry into the HoF

 

[Al Zarilla]

With all due respect j-man the Colts did nothing against the Jets D that day.

I do agree with your conclusion about SB3 and Joe's entry into the HoF

The Colts must have totally overlooked the Jets, right? The Colts were 13-1 regular season with a point differential of 18+ per game. The Jets were an excellent 11-3, but it was all against the untested AFL. The Colts beat the Browns 34-0 in the NFL championship game. The Jets squeaked by the Raiders 27-23 in the AFL Title Game. When the two leagues did meet in Super Bowls 1 and 2, neither the Chiefs nor the Raiders gave the Packers much trouble at all. The guy who could have been MVP of SB 1, Max McGhee, even admitted he was out til the wee hours drinking, not expecting to play until starter Boyd Dowler got hurt. On the other hand, Colts QB Earl Morrall was terrible that day and Johnny U not much better. Still, it was the kind of matchup about which people might say “Well, if the two teams played 10 games against each other, the Colts would win 7 or 8.” We’ll never know.

 

[terrynever]

SB III was Don Shula’s worst coaching job ever. He hated talking about that game and fled to Miami not long after where he quickly turned into a genius.

 

[joe dokes]

SB III was Don Shula’s worst coaching job ever. He hated talking about that game and fled to Miami not long after where he quickly turned into a genius.

Costing the Colts a 1st round draft pick tampering penalty in the process.

 

[mauf]

The Colts must have totally overlooked the Jets, right? The Colts were 13-1 regular season with a point differential of 18+ per game. The Jets were an excellent 11-3, but it was all against the untested AFL. The Colts beat the Browns 34-0 in the NFL championship game. The Jets squeaked by the Raiders 27-23 in the AFL Title Game. When the two leagues did meet in Super Bowls 1 and 2, neither the Chiefs nor the Raiders gave the Packers much trouble at all. The guy who could have been MVP of SB 1, Max McGhee, even admitted he was out til the wee hours drinking, not expecting to play until starter Boyd Dowler got hurt. On the other hand, Colts QB Earl Morrall was terrible that day and Johnny U not much better. Still, it was the kind of matchup about which people might say “Well, if the two teams played 10 games against each other, the Colts would win 7 or 8.” We’ll never know.

The Chiefs won SB4, and the AFC was better than the NFC throughout the ‘70s (though part of that was the Steelers, who weren’t an AFL team), so I’d argue that the gap between the two leagues was not nearly as wide as the conventional wisdom held it to be when Namath made The Guarantee.

I voted “good but not HOF,” but I don’t think Griese should be in either. I think it’s hard to argue for one and against the other, unless you think two rings should be automatic.

 

[Al Zarilla]

The Chiefs won SB4, and the AFC was better than the NFC throughout the ‘70s (though part of that was the Steelers, who weren’t an AFL team), so I’d argue that the gap between the two leagues was not nearly as wide as the conventional wisdom held it to be when Namath made The Guarantee.

I voted “good but not HOF,” but I don’t think Griese should be in either. I think it’s hard to argue for one and against the other, unless you think two rings should be automatic.

Yes, the "keep matriculating the ball down the field, boys" Chiefs. Hank Stram was a good'un. Pretty sure they were underdogs to the Vikings in the Super Bowl, not as big as Jets vs. Colts. The Chiefs had little trouble with the Vikings. Chiefs beat the crap out of the Patriots most years back then, but so did a lot of teams. He who laughs last laughs last.

 

[mauf]

Namath was 10th in career passing yards at the time of his retirement.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_career.htm
Five of the nine ahead of Namath are Hall of Famers (Tarkenton, Unitas, Tittle, Jurgensen, Dawson). The other four aren’t (Hadl, Brodie, Snead, Gabriel).

This doesn’t really illustrate anything, except why this is a terrific debate.

Namath was definitely better than the four non-HOFers. None were clearly better statistically, none won a title, and only one (Brodie) even won a playoff game. Namath also had more Pro Bowl nods than the others.

But Namath doesn’t belong with the five HOFers either. Unitas and Tittle are in the pre-modern GOAT discussion, and Tarkenton is a pantheon guy too. Jurgensen and Dawson are a cut below those three, but both put up clearly superior numbers to Namath’s in roughly the same time period.

Reasonable people differ on where to draw the line between HOF and non-HOF, but most of us would agree Namath is close to the line.

 

[joe dokes]

Namath was 10th in career passing yards at the time of his retirement.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_career.htm
.

To provide some additional context, and acknowledging that it was against AFL competition, Namath's 4007 yards in 1967 (in 14 games) was the single season record for a long time. (until Air Coryell Fouts). And as recently as 1997, the NFL season leader had fewer than that. And even as recently as 2005, Brady led with "only" 4100 or so.

 

[terrynever]

Namath was 10th in career passing yards at the time of his retirement.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/leaders/pass_yds_career.htm
Five of the nine ahead of Namath are Hall of Famers (Tarkenton, Unitas, Tittle, Jurgensen, Dawson). The other four aren’t (Hadl, Brodie, Snead, Gabriel).

This doesn’t really illustrate anything, except why this is a terrific debate.

Namath was definitely better than the four non-HOFers. None were clearly better statistically, none won a title, and only one (Brodie) even won a playoff game. Namath also had more Pro Bowl nods than the others.

But Namath doesn’t belong with the five HOFers either. Unitas and Tittle are in the pre-modern GOAT discussion, and Tarkenton is a pantheon guy too. Jurgensen and Dawson are a cut below those three, but both put up clearly superior numbers to Namath’s in roughly the same time period.

Reasonable people differ on where to draw the line between HOF and non-HOF, but most of us would agree Namath is close to the line.

The best part of this discussion has been realizing how young and agile Namath once was. His final years sort of stick in my brain. But he was so much more. The arm and quick release were special, and not often see in those days.

And thanks for reminding me that Norm Snead once existed. Eagles traded Jurgensen for Snead.

 

[bankshot1]

fwiw Hadl was a pretty decent QB, played in the same era, and SB guarantees aside, arguably had a better career/more success than Namath.

 

[Al Zarilla]

fwiw Hadl was a pretty decent QB, played in the same era, and SB guarantees aside, arguably had a better career/more success than Namath.

Hadl had some good to great receivers to throw to: Lincoln, Lowe, Garrison, Frazier and the great Lance Alworth, plus the great Sid Gilman coaching. Namath had Maynard and Sauer, who else?

 

[terrynever]

Hadl had some good to great receivers to throw to: Lincoln, Lowe, Garrison, Frazier and the great Lance Alworth, plus the great Sid Gilman coaching. Namath had Maynard and Sauer, who else?

That was a fun team to watch. The AFL in the 1960s was much more entertaining than the NFL. Scores were way higher. Offenses more wide open.

 

[bankshot1]

Hadl had some good to great receivers to throw to: Lincoln, Lowe, Garrison, Frazier and the great Lance Alworth, plus the great Sid Gilman coaching. Namath had Maynard and Sauer, who else?

Lincoln and Lowe were primarily running backs. (for masochists take a look at the '63 AFL championship game-these guys destroyed the Pats) .

In that regard Namath had Snell and Boozer. And Maynard (pretty sure HoF) and Sauer were pretty good but not Bambi-class good. If you look at Hadl #s they are generally better than Namath's

 

[j-man]

I wonder if the way those Denver teams got destroyed in Super Bowls in the 80's is coloring everyone's perception of players on their defense.

maybe but i think he was born too early in life and was not flashy at all and other than 1977 played on just ok broncos teams but the utiemtie do-over wouild been what if the broncos hire bill b after 1978 he was a coaching assintent on the 78 broncos if that happhed bill couild had coached the 2 greatest QB'S of all time ELWAY and Brady yeah the elway deal wouild had still happahed because that was ownership irisey was good friends with egar kaler the owner before bolwan actilly in this fake timeline i bring up bill couild had coached elway utill 1999 then been a tv guy for a year then coached at NE from 2000 utill now

i know that was unrealstilc but it shows how trin a line life is