Judge’s March To 62 Homers
- Thread starter Wingack
- Start date
Not that much. Teams averaged 136 HR in 154 games in 1960 (0.88/g) and 153/162 in 1961 (0.94/g), so that’s like a 7% increase. Maybe I’m overstating it but I’ve always been struck by guys like Gentile and Cash blowing up that year. No doubt that hitting 61 was impressive and I didn’t intend to diminish that feat
I'm repeating myself, but folks are inconsistent about evaluating PEDs.
Mantle was using PEDs in 1961. Had the doctor administering the shot not been a dangerous quack, he might have hit 62 homers in 61.
Ruth injected himself with goat testosterone to increase his strength as an active player.
We make guys like Bonds and McGwire villains because there was a higher degree of media scrutiny surrounding PEDs when they played. I think one can make an argument that guys like Mays, Mantle, Ruth and the countless others that experimented with pills back in the day didn't lie about their use and that there is a moral difference in their behavior... but it's impossible to argue that they weren't trying to get an edge over their competition through pharmacology.
If you want to ban PED users of the steriod era from the HoF that's one thing (I disagree with you, but get it) but erasing their records is foolish and inconsistent with history. It also, I feel, perpetuates some pretty uncomfortable tropes about how the game was purer in the post-war era. People didn't just start using substances with Jose Canseco.
https://razzball.com/greenies-roids-spitters-joy-juice-part-iii/ (the last boy also goes into this in depth)
http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2009/02/baseball-peds-120-year-history.html
Mantle was using PEDs in 1961. Had the doctor administering the shot not been a dangerous quack, he might have hit 62 homers in 61.
Ruth injected himself with goat testosterone to increase his strength as an active player.
We make guys like Bonds and McGwire villains because there was a higher degree of media scrutiny surrounding PEDs when they played. I think one can make an argument that guys like Mays, Mantle, Ruth and the countless others that experimented with pills back in the day didn't lie about their use and that there is a moral difference in their behavior... but it's impossible to argue that they weren't trying to get an edge over their competition through pharmacology.
If you want to ban PED users of the steriod era from the HoF that's one thing (I disagree with you, but get it) but erasing their records is foolish and inconsistent with history. It also, I feel, perpetuates some pretty uncomfortable tropes about how the game was purer in the post-war era. People didn't just start using substances with Jose Canseco.
https://razzball.com/greenies-roids-spitters-joy-juice-part-iii/ (the last boy also goes into this in depth)
http://joyofsox.blogspot.com/2009/02/baseball-peds-120-year-history.html
Is there any actual evidence that Sosa used PEDs or does everyone just assume he did because he transformed from a good-great home run hitter into an otherworldly one? And do they assume he started using in 1998? He also put up some eye-popping numbers in 1996 - 40 HR in the Cubs first 124 games (a 52 HR pace) before breaking his hand and missing the rest of the season - and regressed back to his normal career totals in '97 and the first two months of '98 before exploding with 20 homers that June.
If Judge hits 62 homeruns he is still behind Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa. It doesn’t really matter what anyone thinks. There are people in this country that think Trump is the President and he’s wearing a Joe Biden mask right now. Facts are facts and they always will be.
I don’t even know who that is, but I do know that people have been cheating and using drugs since sports have been invented. I also know that one of the very best players in baseball got suspended for PEDs literally last week, so I’m pretty good which knowing that most of what I’ve ever seen is either mostly on a level playing field or just slightly bullshit.
Yeah, I think there are a whole lot of people that do not view Bonds (or the other guys) as clean during the years they passed 61. And do not really recognize them as true record breakers.
I think if someone comes along and does it cleanly (as far as we know) providing fans with a legitimate alternative I think people may want to look to him as the new rightful single season king. I think baseball fans want someone like that to come along.
As best as I can tell the proponents of Judge 62* as the all-time season HR king, want to ignore and exclude the existing leaders: Bonds 2001-73 HRs , McGwire 1998-70, 1999-65) and Sosa's 1998-66, 1999-63, 2001-64) .
I think to adhere to that rationale is fine. But to be consistent we should ignore and asterisk the MLB years of, at a minimum 1998-2001, but to be safe add to the tails, and assume the years of 1996-2003 were wholly tainted and should be ignored by "real" baseball fans.
I think to adhere to that rationale is fine. But to be consistent we should ignore and asterisk the MLB years of, at a minimum 1998-2001, but to be safe add to the tails, and assume the years of 1996-2003 were wholly tainted and should be ignored by "real" baseball fans.
No, but one can at least make a case that Rosie Ruiz did. If one ignores the cheating, that is.
Listen, I’ve been saying everyone’s juicing forever. It’s not the cheating, it’s the getting caught. Being good at cheating is a skill like any other, and if you get caught then you shouldn’t hold the records over the guys who didn’t, because they got you, dummy. That’s the risk everyone knows they’re taking.
At this point there have been more seasons w/162 games than seasons w/154. More appropriate at this point to have an entry "Most Homers in a 154 Game Season" versus always comparing one record to the other.
Judge being a FA this winter is going to very interesting. Obviously the Yankees will be the front-runners for his services, but it's entirely likely that both of the Yanks' biggest rivals could be challengers for Judge's services as both NYM and Sox have need for power-hitting RF and have the pockets to make the bidding very competitive.
As was mentioned upthread, the watered down competition is also a factor in 1961. It is obviously unknowable but I wonder if they had moved to 162 games but kept the AL at 8 teams if he’d have hit 61 or not.
It feels like everyone here is trying to or directly implying that Yankee fans have a bias about the record because Judge is a Yankee. I really don't feel that way and if Pete Alonso hit 62, I'd feel the same way that he would be an important name in homerun history. The record is muddy and it's very meaningful both to the player and to the audience to see someone beat the record cleanly. Now, if Judge hit 75 homeruns, no question we'd be talking about this differently, but if he hits 62, it's pretty important. Doesn't change who the record holders are, doesn't change that his name doesn't get put anywhere important, but it's not important just because he's a yankee.
Yup. Bonds' arrogance (just one item: he had a special Lazy Boy type chair just for him installed in the clubhouse, which TV was always showing, kept me from liking the Giants even as a Bay Area guy.) As soon as he retired, the Giants became my (strong) second team as refreshing young guys like Cain, Lincecum, Posey and Crawford were coming along to help bring the titles.
Re Judge, I always picture him and Mookie at the all star games showing genuine friendliness in the outfield. Tall and short. Any friend of Mookie's...
The current single season home run champion is Jimmie Foxx. Bonds, Sosa, McGwire don’t count because of roids. Maris had 162, plus the asterisk of Mantle protecting him in the order. And Ruth was loaded up with animal cum. Jimmie Foxx hit 58 in 1932, and had two additional homers that were discounted because the game got rained out. Jimmie Foxx, 60 homers, single season king
I wasn’t being serious, just trying to show how dumb it is to try to separate what counts from what doesn’t
Just for kicks, I wanted to see who were the single season leaders for AB/HR (it's just the screen shot of the results, not an active link):
Yeah that I completely agree with, although I am serious that I personally ignore everything pre-integration.
1) Mantle 1961> Maris 1961 in that list does make one think how things would have gone if the batting order was flipped.
2) The fact that there is debate about the HR record sort of makes me reconsider my stance to go ahead and put Bonds/Arod/Clemens in the HOF. Those guys, Bonds in particular, really did irreparable harm to the game by mucking up the numbers - and therefore our ability to enjoy chasing historical numbers - in ways that will last forever.
If 61 really was the record this would be really fun.
2) The fact that there is debate about the HR record sort of makes me reconsider my stance to go ahead and put Bonds/Arod/Clemens in the HOF. Those guys, Bonds in particular, really did irreparable harm to the game by mucking up the numbers - and therefore our ability to enjoy chasing historical numbers - in ways that will last forever.
If 61 really was the record this would be really fun.
I'd argue that the game changing and putting a lot of historical records out of reach has done more damage to the "enjoyment of chasing historical numbers" factor than the steroid guys ruining the home run record.
Think about it, pitchers being used less frequently has basically ruined all attainable pitching records/milestones from the past. The 3,000 hit club might have seen it's last member get inducted this season. Nobody steals bases anymore. What records are left?
We have new records now. "Greatest launch angle", for example. Or however the Hell they measure it.
Re "mucking up the numbers" I get what you're saying, but I do think the Sosa-McGwire HR chase in 1998 was a net benefit for MLB. It was national news in a way that was rare by that time, appointment viewing for sports fans across the country which lots of folks claim was critical in easing the bad feeling of the 1994 strike.
Hard to evaluate that objectively -- the inaugural seasons of the Rays and Diamondbacks in '98 caused attendance to pop, and it continued to increase in the seasons that followed: https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/majors/misc.shtml
For instance, how do you tease apart causation and correlation and the number of factors at play there (the expansion teams, TV contracts, spike in revenues, Yankees getting good -- their attendance alone went from 2.2M in '96 to 3M in '98, etc.).
Per Katie Sharp, Judge is the second AL player to hit 50 homers before September. Maris hit 51 before September.
Judge is now tied for most homers before September in AL history, after hitting no. 51 just now.
Who is going to kidnap Judge ? Actually I don't care as long as the Y%nkees lose in the playoffs or don't make the playoffs at all.
What does ARod consider the record:
View: https://twitter.com/arod/status/1567606921397678080?s=21&t=CE1Hom1CBAkLQJ1AVlxRfQ
View: https://twitter.com/arod/status/1567606921397678080?s=21&t=CE1Hom1CBAkLQJ1AVlxRfQ
I thought about this the other day when they batted him leadoff against the Rays. Just walk him. Honestly, in any game where the rest of the lineup is quiet, walk him anytime there isn't anyone on base
The HR today was with MIN up 3-0 and Judge leading off the inning, no one is going to IBB anyone in that situation.