Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash
- Thread starter glennhoffmania
- Start date
People were pretty glowing about OJ before the murders weren't they? Not to say that the cases are the same, but its not so outlandish that a famous celebrity could fool a lot of people with a combination of natural charm and being revered for something totally amoral like being good at sports.
I am having a tough time with an issue with Kobe. I coach a high school team, and this weekend is our home tournament. I am a white guy, and only half my players are white kids. Kobe is a favorite and I have a few times shared some of the workout stories about him with my guys, though I use Curry or KD, than Kobe. I expect my guys want to do video tribute or something at the opening ceremonies, but I don't want to do it. Last year one of my players, a black kid dealt with a false allegation, not of the sexual kind, but the school and parents involved the police with zero evidence, and it was easy to exonerate the kid. As black kids, they all have experience with being seen as guilty when innocent. So, as the white coah not wanting to do Kobe trubute, it is complicated. On the other hand, in my eyes, he isn;t the right guy to do this for. Of equal concern is the possibility of backlash from groups in the community that will see this as black and white issue (in more ways than one).
Anyway what I am doing is:
1. Talking to my guys explaining my thoughts, including the fact as a white guy there is lots i have never experienced, and can only sympathize, not empathize. This will include a conversation about consent, etc.
2. Pass the buck upstairs. The tournament organizers will make the decision, and I will speak against a formal Kobe tribute. I will not hide my opinion from the players.
3. If my guys, and the other team want to do a 24 second, 8 second thing, write kobe on their shoes, buy a pair of Kobes, etc, as players, I am in not standing in their way.If this sparks a protest, as it may, I will point to 1 and 2.
Anyway what I am doing is:
1. Talking to my guys explaining my thoughts, including the fact as a white guy there is lots i have never experienced, and can only sympathize, not empathize. This will include a conversation about consent, etc.
2. Pass the buck upstairs. The tournament organizers will make the decision, and I will speak against a formal Kobe tribute. I will not hide my opinion from the players.
3. If my guys, and the other team want to do a 24 second, 8 second thing, write kobe on their shoes, buy a pair of Kobes, etc, as players, I am in not standing in their way.If this sparks a protest, as it may, I will point to 1 and 2.
My thought from the very beginning was spatial disorientation. Van Nuys tower reported the winds calm, visibility 2½ miles and overcast conditions with the ceiling at 1,100 ft. Van Nuys was about 10 miles from the crash site. Camarillo was in MVFR/IFR at the time so I’m guessing the weather conditions at the crash site were similar (albeit with maybe higher ceilings) . So my guess was that he was trying get altitude to clear the hills, flew into a cloud and became disoriented. But, he was s very experienced pilot (IIRC he had over 8000 hours total and over 1500 in the type) so, I agree, I think something else contributed to the accident.
I looking forward to reading the accident report.
NTSB said he had a subscription to Foreflight on his iPad. As GF said, paper is rarely used anymore so everyhing is on the iPad and it’s unlikely it contributed to the crash.
https://foreflight.com/
Regarding Kobe's true nature - I really want to believe in redemption. As a human. As a Catholic. But, man, it's hard to read the report and see how anyone could be good and do that. He raped this girl while choking her, made her look back at him 3-4 times and promise she wouldn't tell anyone, then made her kiss his blood-covered dick before masturbating while still wearing a shirt covered in her blood. After, he at the very least sat there while his attorney said her name in open court 6 times, bullied and harassed her, then later released an apology noting what a hard year it'd been for him.
The article I posted yesterday had a comment from the Daily Beast writer stating that she reached out to the survivor in 2016 but couldn't talk to her because of the NDA. The way the writer phrased it, it sounded like Kobe was still holding her to the NDA, but it was ambiguous - probably purposefully so. Regardless - as much as I want to believe in redemption, how can that exist without true contrition? Like I said earlier, where was his charity work with rape or sexual abuse survivors? Where was his advocacy on their behalf?
That's what gets me about Kobe, Chapman, Hill - if you want to apologize and make amends, do it to the community you affected. How do survivors feel watching a guy very publicly be glorified for his work for LA in general, or basketball in general, or youth basketball, or young NBA players when he completely ignores their cause? Isn't that an extra slap in the face? He rebuilds his brand by very publicly bringing money and attention to very causes, while staying completely silent about the groups he harmed.
Regarding the racial aspect to this - I posted the DB article to my Instagram the other day and woke up the next morning to a text from one of my very best friends - a black woman - linking me to a twitter thread about how white women shouldn't comment about Kobe's rape. There's not nothing there. Obviously, there is a horrid history of black men being falsely accused of sexual violence, particularly toward white women. But, as @Preacher pointed out very well, the evidence isn't really there that happened to Kobe.
The fact that most people don't know the actual facts of the case speaks to the brutal effectiveness of Kobe and his attorney's defense strategy and the subsequent collaboration with the NBA, Nike, ESPN, whatever to cash back in on Kobe's athleticism and refurbished image.
That said, it seems shameful to leverage the racist history of rape allegations against innocent black men to cover up the very credible allegation against this particular black man. It is also a shame to see Kobe apologists subjugate the history of violence against women by reference to the history of violence against blacks.
Awhile back, I posted an article my friend (different one) published in response to the 16 or so Harvard Law Professors who very publicly wrote condemning her rape allegations against a fellow student. Both she and the rapist are black. In the open letter, these professors defended the student by stating that people should be more wary of believing accusations against black alleged rapists because of the history cited above. My friend very astutely replied that black women alleging rape had historically been ignored or shamed, and that she felt particularly betrayed having her professors doubt her allegations by reference to the race of her assailant while ignoring her own blackness.
The survivor here was white, but that message still seems relevant to the extent women of all races have historically - and continue to be - ignored when alleging rape.
The article I posted yesterday had a comment from the Daily Beast writer stating that she reached out to the survivor in 2016 but couldn't talk to her because of the NDA. The way the writer phrased it, it sounded like Kobe was still holding her to the NDA, but it was ambiguous - probably purposefully so. Regardless - as much as I want to believe in redemption, how can that exist without true contrition? Like I said earlier, where was his charity work with rape or sexual abuse survivors? Where was his advocacy on their behalf?
That's what gets me about Kobe, Chapman, Hill - if you want to apologize and make amends, do it to the community you affected. How do survivors feel watching a guy very publicly be glorified for his work for LA in general, or basketball in general, or youth basketball, or young NBA players when he completely ignores their cause? Isn't that an extra slap in the face? He rebuilds his brand by very publicly bringing money and attention to very causes, while staying completely silent about the groups he harmed.
Regarding the racial aspect to this - I posted the DB article to my Instagram the other day and woke up the next morning to a text from one of my very best friends - a black woman - linking me to a twitter thread about how white women shouldn't comment about Kobe's rape. There's not nothing there. Obviously, there is a horrid history of black men being falsely accused of sexual violence, particularly toward white women. But, as @Preacher pointed out very well, the evidence isn't really there that happened to Kobe.
The fact that most people don't know the actual facts of the case speaks to the brutal effectiveness of Kobe and his attorney's defense strategy and the subsequent collaboration with the NBA, Nike, ESPN, whatever to cash back in on Kobe's athleticism and refurbished image.
That said, it seems shameful to leverage the racist history of rape allegations against innocent black men to cover up the very credible allegation against this particular black man. It is also a shame to see Kobe apologists subjugate the history of violence against women by reference to the history of violence against blacks.
Awhile back, I posted an article my friend (different one) published in response to the 16 or so Harvard Law Professors who very publicly wrote condemning her rape allegations against a fellow student. Both she and the rapist are black. In the open letter, these professors defended the student by stating that people should be more wary of believing accusations against black alleged rapists because of the history cited above. My friend very astutely replied that black women alleging rape had historically been ignored or shamed, and that she felt particularly betrayed having her professors doubt her allegations by reference to the race of her assailant while ignoring her own blackness.
The survivor here was white, but that message still seems relevant to the extent women of all races have historically - and continue to be - ignored when alleging rape.
The NTSB press conference that GF09 posted earlier. I went back and listened again. The NTSB spokesperson said the aircraft was at 2300 ft (not 2200 as I originally posted) when communication was lost, descended in a steep, left bank at a rate of approximately 2000 ft/minute. During the Q&A she said the crash site was at 1085 ft and 20 to 30 ft below the top of the hill. Also, the pilot had 1250 hours in the type and not 1500 hours as I stated earlier.
View: https://www.facebook.com/ktvu/videos/274676376850145/
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Correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t the Sikorsky have an autopilot? If so then I would assume the pilot would engage the autopilot while using Foreflight.
What would happen if the autopilot ( if it has one) would suddenly disengage? Not saying this was the cause, I’m just curious how a helicopter would behave.
From my BiL, who flies Blackhawks:
- Spatial disorientation can happen during normal weather, but it's very common if you fly unexpectedly into clouds. It's considered an emergency if you do
- When you can't use the visual horizon or any of the cues that you normally have, it can cause panic and you fly using your proprioceptive system, which is highly inaccurate
- that helicopter should've had no issue flying instruments and just declaring the emergency (but easy for me to say, I wasn't there)
- (in response to joke about Iraq being safer than OC) I think forced human decisions happen all the time, humans love their emotions, they are just highlighted when the implications are more severe.
- I think (BiL's opinion) the guy was just overconfident and didn't want to disappoint.
- it happens all the time in cars, just with less severe outcomes
- in an example of gallows humor, warnings about flying into clouds now come with (careful, nobody wants to Kobe this shit).
I am not a pilot......but I've read various pieces by pilots and other experts on this. IIRC, the pilot asked for (incorrect terminology ahead) ATC to guide him, ATC told him he was too low for that, so the consensus seemed to be that the climb was the pilot going high enough to get radar-guided by ATC. "High enough," of course, meant into the clouds where he became disoriented and, as suggested upthread, may well have thought he was climbing when he wasn't. One pilot I read said something like the onset of spatial disorientation can be almost immediate upon entering a cloud, and if it isn't recognized and accounted for just as immediately a bad outcome is likely because the pilot's first instinct is to "do something" (which may not be the right thing).
All that aside, the input from people here who actually know what they are talking about is pretty invaluable.
What always gets me in these types of things is thinking about the period of time when people know something is wrong. I guess I can only hope that here, the passengers were equally as disoriented.
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Watching a report about the Lakers, imagine if this had happened when Kobe was still an active player?
folks would be calling for the season to be canceled, and that’s just to start
folks would be calling for the season to be canceled, and that’s just to start
The pilot asked for flight following which is sorta not the same as asking ATC to guide him. The official name for flight following is Radar Traffic Information Service and its there to help the pilot out with traffic, weather and airspace avoidance by basically giving him helpful advice. The pilot is under no obligation to accept the advice of ATC and navigation is still his responsibility. Conversely, a controller is not required to provide flight following; it’s a service that they can provide if they have the time and In some cases, ATC will deny it if their work load is too heavy.
According to the ATC transcript the pilot was in VFR conditions at 1500 feet when he left Van Nuys airspace. I don’t know what airspace class he was in when he left Van Nuys but, assuming it was Class G ( uncontrolled airspace) he was legally required to stay clear of the clouds so, if he did enter the clouds, then it was most likely inadvertent. At this point it is still too early to determine exactly what happened but spatial disorientation is possible. But we don’t know of that was the primary cause or just something that may have contributed to the accident.
https://www.boldmethod.com/blog/bose/how-to-use-vfr-flight-following/
https://www.washingtonpost.com/transportation/2020/01/27/transcript-conversation-between-pilot-ara-zobayan-air-traffic-control-kobe-bryant-crash/
When they kept cutting back to the West/Shaq/Ernie Johnson roundtable before and during the Celtics game last night, my wife asked "Did he die again"?
In terms of the racial angle here, @Marciano490 has it right when he says there's not nothing there. My wife, who is a black woman (and was a Laker fan who lived in LA during the early 2000s and loved Kobe) basically told me to shut the fuck up about the rape stuff. Her feeling on this is that if Kobe was white nobody would give a shit about the allegation, and the only people talking about it are white women. I don't think she's right, but let's just say after a very heated argument on Sunday night I decided to drop it.
I am totally stupid about piloting (and a good many things). But I do always kind of have a default plan.
If your in (or fly into) a cloud....couldnt you just Pull up? Climb Climb Climb. Lot less stuff to hit. Also seems like from a flight controls perspective its pretty basic (for a pilot with 1500+ hours) to know if your going up or not (altimeter and altitude indicator).
Maybe he was trying. Maybe they are supposed to. Maybe Climbing isnt as easy as just pulling back on the stick and watching the altimeter. Maybe the spatial awareness thing makes you think your climbing. But man it seems like if your in a situation, even an instant one, the first thing you want to do is give yourself some space.
How difficult is it to initiate a 200fpm climb? 400? Is there any downside to something like that? Passenger discomfort? Ass chewing because you could get into commercial space?
As i said...not a pilot. But from a common sense standpoint....Climb man.
Choppers can be some scary shit. My military experience jumping from them was set early on with my first jump, when a Buddy yelled over the rotor blast and noise "Hey....if the chopper doesnt have Oil and shit all over the inside dont get on it!" "Why?" "Cause its all leaked out! AHahahahahhaaaa" With that he walked off toward a bird and I walked off toward another.
@Gunfighter 09 can you speak to this? How silly is this.
If your in (or fly into) a cloud....couldnt you just Pull up? Climb Climb Climb. Lot less stuff to hit. Also seems like from a flight controls perspective its pretty basic (for a pilot with 1500+ hours) to know if your going up or not (altimeter and altitude indicator).
Maybe he was trying. Maybe they are supposed to. Maybe Climbing isnt as easy as just pulling back on the stick and watching the altimeter. Maybe the spatial awareness thing makes you think your climbing. But man it seems like if your in a situation, even an instant one, the first thing you want to do is give yourself some space.
How difficult is it to initiate a 200fpm climb? 400? Is there any downside to something like that? Passenger discomfort? Ass chewing because you could get into commercial space?
As i said...not a pilot. But from a common sense standpoint....Climb man.
Choppers can be some scary shit. My military experience jumping from them was set early on with my first jump, when a Buddy yelled over the rotor blast and noise "Hey....if the chopper doesnt have Oil and shit all over the inside dont get on it!" "Why?" "Cause its all leaked out! AHahahahahhaaaa" With that he walked off toward a bird and I walked off toward another.
@Gunfighter 09 can you speak to this? How silly is this.
Interesting, haven't thought about it from the racial/gender angle. Seems very much about color though; jersey color. My aunt, a progressive professor at a school in SoCal, dyed-in-the-wool basketball/Laker fan who raises awareness of women's issues all the time, posted a illustration of Kobe ascending into heaven in her FB feed. Something tells me if Kobe spent his career on the Bulls she might have posted something substantially different.
I have a whole host of follow up-questions Ralph, but this isn't the forum for those. Also don't want to step into your marital space and/or give ammunition to future battles.
Not really seeing the jersey color angle on twitter. Am seeing the race angle.
One of the experts quoted in one of the stories made it sound like the pilot may very well thought he was climbing. Disoriented pilots sometimes try to "do" something before they completely focus on the instruments, and then fixate on what they are doing and dont shift all focus to the instruments quickly enough. I would have thought that impossible to not realize you were going down, but a number of interviewed pilots say it isn't.
I
Well, im a minority and have lived in LA my whole life, so she's wrong. Period. Also, the fact that so many minorities in LA have claimed this is a role model for their children is disturbing.
I've found the blowback to anyone even daring to mention rape completely disgusting and infuriating. But whatever, I'm done getting worked up over this shit. The truth is undefeated, even if it takes a long time.
He was on a VFR flight plan and was legally obligated not to fly into the clouds. But even if he could, flying into a cloud can be really dangerous because it’s easy to become disoriented, you don’t know where the clouds top out at and you could reach the aircraft’s ceiling and still be in the cloud, there’s turbulence that could wreck you, and there might be other aircraft in the clouds that you cannot see. There’s an old adage that safety regulations are written in blood because, in most cases, they are the result of someone doing something stupid and getting hurt/killed. The VFR regulations were written they way they are for precisely that reason. If you want to fly in a cloud, you file for IFR and do exactly what ATC tells you to do.
Disorientation or a medical emergency seem like the two leading theories. Very little time to correct and only one pilot would make both of those scenarios particularly deadly.
I don't know what more to say about people's thoughts on the allegations against Kobe. He told his side of the story. She told her side of the story. We know what the police reported. We know the statements from various friends and co-workers. My best guess is that it started off as a consensual encounter that, at some point, became too rough for the (adult) woman. At which point she made this clear and whether or not Kobe understood this and decided to keep going, we'll never know because a) nobody else was in the room and b) we don't have consistent statements regarding this.
Put it all together and you've got those who say "he's definitely a rapist."
Thing is... a lot of other people, with the same information, seem to think it was something else and aren't obligated to behave as if "he's definitely a rapist."
I don't know what more to say about people's thoughts on the allegations against Kobe. He told his side of the story. She told her side of the story. We know what the police reported. We know the statements from various friends and co-workers. My best guess is that it started off as a consensual encounter that, at some point, became too rough for the (adult) woman. At which point she made this clear and whether or not Kobe understood this and decided to keep going, we'll never know because a) nobody else was in the room and b) we don't have consistent statements regarding this.
Put it all together and you've got those who say "he's definitely a rapist."
Thing is... a lot of other people, with the same information, seem to think it was something else and aren't obligated to behave as if "he's definitely a rapist."
There is some sort of collective amnesia that seems to take hold in these situations. As the glowing tributes continue to pour in from everywhere, that's got to be at least one explanation. All these people can't be willfully bad, evil, insensitive, rape enablers. They either never knew, or have completely forgotten about the incident, and all of it's ugly details. Hell, I had. Thanks to @Marciano490 for reminding us just how brutal and degrading an attack it was. With all of this occurring 16-17 years ago, and with the blizzard of information we all live in now, it's not that hard to understand that many have simply forgotten about it. Which makes it all the more the shameful that so many media organizations, ESPN chief among them, have failed completely to remind everyone about this part of his past. They all covered the story when it happened, have easy access to all of that material, and have willfully refused to bring that perspective to their coverage of his death and legacy. There's a legitimate debate to be had about redemption, whether he truly changed, and became a better person, etc. But if his numbers are retired league-wide, and if they ever(unlikely, I know) did replace Jerry West with him as the logo, it would be an such an affront to his victim, to all victims, and to common decency and sense.
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Retire his number league wide, make him the logo, build a statue in every arena. Then when the Netflix documentary comes out in a few years detailing the rape (which is the only way anyone in this world learns anything about anything now), all these idiots can own it.
I definitely think that Kobe likely grew up a lot from the guy he was in the early 'aughts and it sounds like he did a lot of good/great things in the last 15 or so years of his life. But I also don't think I have ever seen such an intensive effort to rehabilitate (or perhaps recreate is the better term) an athlete's image as what I saw with Kobe in the wake of the Eagle, CO incident. And people with histories of shitty/reprehensible behavior can do good/great things for others. But I struggle with translating that to them being good to great people. Bill Clinton has done a lot of great things for other people, largely through the work of the Clinton Foundation. Those things do not absolve him of his pattern of preying on women and that is pretty much what my feelings on Kobe come down to. It sounds like Kobe has done a ton of good in the world, especially when it involves kids, but IMO there is no amount of good you can do that wipes away certain actions. But, I am a bit of an absolutist when it comes to this stuff, that I fully acknowledge.
I have to acknowledge my bias here as well - I followed the NBA writ large much more closely back in the early 2000s than I have since (I have basically been all Celts since then). So my clearest vision of Kobe is probably from that era and his image, in my mind, never recovered from what it was back then.
My cynical view is that most (not all) people dont really "pay attention" to the details of anything until they're in their mid-20s. That means that only people 40+ and up today were even aware of the details at the time. And those people aren't ESPNs target audience.
This is seriously the best comment that I’ve read on this incident and people’s reaction in the aftermath. Thank you. I agree 1000%.
Heard the Ringer Podcast with Simmons and J.A. Adande regarding Kobe just now. They got into the rape at about 30 minutes in. J.A. was clearly uncomfortable talking about it, and he really lost me when he said, "Are we going to let one year and one incident outweigh the entirety of his career and his life? You, know there has to be a balance-" At this point there is a very obvious edit (I used to work in radio, but you can't miss it.) and they move onto how his students at Northwestern talked about it in the aftermath.
J.A. strikes me as an example of large segment of sports fans who are aware that an incident happened in Colorado, but didn't and still don't really want to know the details of what happened because it might affect how they view Kobe.
I do think this will eventually be discussed in more detail out once the shock wears off (I think it is fair game now, personally), which will probably happen after the funeral, but the willful ignorance displayed by so much of the sports media to this is really disappointing.
J.A. strikes me as an example of large segment of sports fans who are aware that an incident happened in Colorado, but didn't and still don't really want to know the details of what happened because it might affect how they view Kobe.
I do think this will eventually be discussed in more detail out once the shock wears off (I think it is fair game now, personally), which will probably happen after the funeral, but the willful ignorance displayed by so much of the sports media to this is really disappointing.
To be fair, this Sarah Spain column is pretty good, and predictably, she's taking crap on Twitter for it, a lot based around it being "too soon" and that she happens to be a white woman.
https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/28586207/now-right-remember-kobe-bryant-life-all-it
You know how people often say "boy, I'd love to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation!" ?
Yeah, no.
One of the problems with this whole discussion is because Kobe was rich and famous and charismatic, and because the civil settlement included an NDA, and because the victim doesn't owe any of us anything, the victim's perspective has been almost totally lost in this discussion. All this talk of absolution and redemption is ultimately somewhat misguided because it approaches the issue from Kobe's perspective and point of view, as if he is the one who matters and he's the person with whom we are identifying. It makes Kobe the focus of our concern. But really that's the wrong perspective -- it's the victim who matters and whose point of view should be privileged, and we should be identifying with her, not Kobe. It's complicated because none of us can or have the right to speak for her, but from the victim's perspective, I can imagine it might seem grotesque to suggest that Kobe has been redeemed by other good works, or that what he did to her has to be viewed in balance with the rest of what he did.
Karl Malone is straight garbage.
From the ESPN column:
"It would be one thing if Malone was unable to financially provide for his son, but he made more than $100 million during his NBA career. The Salt Lake (Utah) Tribune reported that when Bell's grandparents initially took Malone to court for paternity in 1986, his second year with the Jazz, they requested Malone pay $200 a week. Malone didn't respond to the suit, but a Louisiana judge ruled he was Bell's father -- after a paternity test showed that was indeed accurate -- and ordered Malone to pay $125 a week, plus past and future medical expenses. Malone claimed that was too much and later reached a confidential out-of-court settlement with Bell's family between 1988 and 1989."
As an aside, Bell's mother, Gloria Williams, is in prison for kidnapping. She kidnapped an infant girl from a Jacksonville hospital 20 years ago and raised her as her own. Williams plead guilty and is serving an 18 year prison sentence. She was finishing up a masters degree when arrested.
Like I said, I think she's wrong. I was stunned at how emotional she got over this. I'm not sure what it is about this whole thing but a lot of people seem to have lost any sense of perspective over what's an appropriate reaction to this whole thing.
Yes to this, and I think that is where some of us differ in terms of our views on redemption and atonement. I don't believe there is any way to "redeem" yourself after you rape someone. You can do good in the world but that does not go towards a "redemption score" that ultimately leads to my viewing you as a good person.
Thanks for posting that. A very good, thoughtful piece. I’d like to see much more of that kind of discussion on Sportscenter, PTI, etc., but not holding my breath. And I can only imagine the garbage she’s getting on Twitter for that. As ever, social media sucks.
Thank you. Sarah Spain is awesome and ESPN needs to do a better job of showcasing her journalism.
Thanks @GoDa and @barbed wire Bob
I know GF09 mentioned that eye witness testimony is usually not very reliable but arent there reports of the Chopper Sputtering and "struggling".
I dont think anything can be ruled out yet including mechanical. (thats were I was trying to go with my "its all leaked out story").
Whirly birds are crazy man.
I know GF09 mentioned that eye witness testimony is usually not very reliable but arent there reports of the Chopper Sputtering and "struggling".
I dont think anything can be ruled out yet including mechanical. (thats were I was trying to go with my "its all leaked out story").
Whirly birds are crazy man.
Not a snarky question...Now that he is dead, is the NDA dead too? I doubt that the victim would want to talk about it now, but what about down the line?
Yep. Kobe got away with it because he was famous, rich, and shameless. The fact that Kobe is black is mostly incidental to the case. People don't want to admit that for reasons I can necessarily plumb, which are private to each of them. But I think a lot of it has to do with this: if this person I admire and even love is bad, does that make me bad too?
Let me be clear: it's an understandble response especially if you live in a country that murdered it's natives and refuses to commit to reparations of any kind for either that or slavery. Paranoia isn't paranoia if people are actually out to get you, after all. We're hypocrites: our culture has been vicious and punitive with the criminals it created with unfair policing, segregation and poverty. There's really no system for restorative justice but what communities of color desperate for it have created themselves. And you know why they did? Because punishing people or casting them out tended to result in them just popping up in other communities and committing the same crimes there. The best way forward IS to talk about these crimes and to involve the perpetrators in those discussions. Shaming and punishing only creates more dysfunction.
There was no way Kobe would have to do that in 2003, though. He was too rich, too famous, and the culture just wasn't there. And as everyone's pointed out, sports media worked hard to rehabilitate his image.
Thanks for everybody's kind words, by the way. It is hard to post about this stuff but running away or avoiding it doesn't help anybody.
You don’t know what more to say— except that the issue is entirely he said/she said (it’s not, per numerous above posts referencing physical evidence, injuries, and Kobe’s statement), and no one can know what really happened-- except your best guess is that it started out consensual until she changed her mind.
Maybe my sarcasm meter is busted..?
Nobody responded to what I wrote about my basketball team, but I am seeing the same thing from the black kids I coach, and I mentioned there they have had their own experiences of being treated badly by authority figures. So when I speak to them about it I focus only on what he said taking responsibility.
I have unposted a dozen times in this thread, because the contributions by so many here are too much to measure up to.
But thanks so much to all that have shared their stories. It helps a lot of us understand better. Changing the culture is so important, and understanding it is necessary for that.
The NTSB said they were getting crash photos and videos that, upon review weren’t of the crash and were actually videos/photos of helicopter crashes in other countries. If people are doing that then can you imagine the number of false “eye witness” accounts they have wade through? At this point I wouldn’t trust any eye witness testimony.
There is a race problem. For sure.
But I think the question (which I think you're covered well) is what is the race angle relevant to here?
Do I believe that in 2003 (and today) the police in Cordillera would be more willing to pursue rape allegations by a young white woman against a black man (even a very famous one)? Of course. And that is a problem. And it is one that needs to be addressed for a couple of the reasons. The obvious ones. It means that white rapists go free, and it means that black men are falsely accused.
But that doesn't entirely answer the question about how we should feel about the ones who are not falsely accused.
To conflate these issues is problematic. It shouldn't a zero sum game. But it often is. Maybe we're destined to see this exact same question, issue, and conflation play out exactly every 25 years in Los Angeles in matters involving famous black athletes.
To me, it all comes down again to good faith if we want to have a discussion about it.
There are some who say "wait 24 hours" who are saying it in bad faith. They are using it as a fig leaf to try to avoid discussing something that they don't want to discuss in 24 minutes, 24 hours, or 24 years. There are some who say "wait 24 hours" (like a friend of mine) who are saying, "yes, we need to talk about the rape, it's important, but it's difficult for me, and I want to remember Kobe the basketball player before I am ready." That's a different thing. It's an attitude I am still highly critical of, but it does not shut the door on the discussion. It still elevates basketball above rape, but it's at least a conversation you can have and try to understand, even if you view the issue as clear.
So too here. There are some that want to say, "all you people talking about the rape are not considering the race problem," because they want to discuss social injustice and these issues matter and can be discussed in good faith even where the accused are guilty. And those discussions, again if the person you're having them with is making their claims in good faith, still leave room for very important points about making the world a place where women are heard, understood, and protected. There are others who are just using it as a fig leaf to avoid grappling with something that gives them cognitive dissonance about a hero and have found something to latch on to try to make you shut up.