Maybe a focus of the thread but not the focus. I am more interested in who made the dumb call to take off.
Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash
- Thread starter glennhoffmania
- Start date
The pilot in command is always responsible for what the aircraft does. Not the passengers. The PIC has an obligation to risk losing the passengers future business if the passenger wants or asks to do something unsafe.
The pilot in command, always and only the pilot in command, that is what the title means. Dealing with passengers unrealistic expectations WRT weather and safety is an important part of the title and a key focus of the training the FAA requires to earn the qualifications.
I keep seeing the "LAPD helicopters were grounded" line, but that is an apples to plums comparison that is a bit of a red herring. Two different types of helicopters, two different levels of IFR capability with those helicopters and a very different mission. Military and police aircraft are optimized for finding and tracking targets and communicating with their tactical forces. Civilian transport aircraft are optimized to get their passengers safely to their location, even in bad weather. I assume LAPD has a weather minimums matrix that "grounds" their aircraft in weather conditions that are not as bad as what high level civilian aircraft can operate in, and then a whole series of approval to launch situations based on the scenario and rank of the approval authority. I imagine if there would have been high level threat that required air support on Sunday morning like a high speed chase involving a high threat suspect, the LAPD would have launched aircraft after some mission analysis, establishment of some safety parameters and approval from a higher authority.
A military example that also deals with the SoCal marine layer exists in San Diego where San Diego international sits between Naval Air Station North Island and Marine Corps Air Station Miramar, and International regularly conducts IFR operations when the Marine Air Groups on Miramar or Wing on NASNI hold their aircraft waiting for the weather to clear.
Shaq was hurt at the start of the 2002/3 season because he refused to have surgery during the off season, as it would interfere with his summer time social schedule. That is the season with the 11-19 start.
http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/170802656/kobe-bryant-shaq-and-sexual-assault-scandal
The 03 /04 season, after adding Malone and Payton, the Lakers started 18-3, then fell apart in the middle when Malone got hurt, then were unbeatable again when Malone was healthy. They rolled through the playoffs and then got beat by the Pistons when Malone got hurt again. They weren't good enough, and Shaq was no longer dominant enough, for them to win without another inside presence like Malone.
Shaq never averaged 20pts or 10 rebounds a game in the regular season after 2005 and never again in the playoffs after leaving LA.
*edit for statistical accuracy.
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In situations like this, I cant stand the use of the word "complicated." It's not complicated at all. Kobe was an all time great basketball player, a philanthropist, a good father (by appearances, anyway), and a rapist. He can be all of those things, they are not mutually exclusive, and nothing cancels out anything else. The people writing these stories push the term complicated, to give themselves cover. Either write about it (the bad side), or dont. Focus on the assault, avoid it, gloss over it, whatever. Either way, there is likely to be some criticism, it comes with the territory. But stop telling us how complicated it is, because it isnt. This isnt "one size fits all." Just shoot your shot, and be ready to defend it.
The guy that I see similarities with is Ted Kennedy. I was not a Ted Kennedy fan, and I believe he skated in a situation where 99.9999 % of the people in the country would have been voted out of office, and more likely arrested, tried, convicted, and jailed for a long time. Just like Kobe. But he was helpful in passing legislation that helped a lot of people, in particular the Americans with Disabilities Act. It doesn't cancel out what he did at Chappaquiddick, or in Palm Beach*, just like Kobe's seeming maturity and charity work doesn't cancel out what he did.
*Kobe's lawyers were just following the playbook laid out by William Kennedy Smith's lawyers. Patricia Bowman's name was in the press (NBC and the NYT) a week after the incident.
I mostly agree with this conclusion, but he did this in his first season with Miami. That was probably his last elite, mostly uninjured season, though.
Thank you for posting this
This is type of information people need to have shared with them, because their own lack of information leads them to such wildy inaccurate theories and beliefs. This is one of the downsides of having access to so much information. There aren't as many experts, but people think they are making informed opinions on things when they are really basing their conclusions on 1% of the information available
I'm staying at my buddy's place for a couple nights while I'm away from town. We've been friends for 28 years now, I stay at their place probably 10 times a year. We took his dog for a walk and I was a little wary of broaching the Kobe subject with him, especially after the way my wife reacted (I mentioned this upthread a few pages back, "those charges were dropped" was her response). But I did bring it up and right away he says "Whatever, a rapist is dead". Then we discussed the details of the crash further, but my sense of relief when he said that, just reinforces what I've always known about him and our friendship
I always forget that Lakers superteam that never quite was when thinking about LeBron in Miami, the Warriors dynasty or the current Lakers.
I do remember Malone’s “I’m hunting little Mexican girls” comment from that year though, even if I didn’t realize till this thread what an overall creep he is.
I have zero respect for Kendrick Perkins. On The Jump right now talking about the mental toughness it took for Kobe to deal with those “legal issues” in Colorado and still play basketball.
As if the "legal issues" were such an inconvenience to him brought on by some vindictive 19 year old hotel worker against poor, misunderstood Kobe. Poor Kobe, having to "deal with" those issues.
Wow. That's ummm certainly an angle to look at the situation i hadn't pondered.
As evidenced in the early part of this thread, any rehashing of Bryant's rape trial in any detail is going to be met with a powerful reaction by those who idolize or respect the guy.
As we also saw upthread, there are, unfortunately, people out there who view rape/assault as an ideological issue or one where both sides almost always have some fault.
To these people, those bringing up the uncomfortable subject are "that person" who always has to ruin a good thing - in this case the honoring of a sports icon after their passing.
Its inconvenient and uncomfortable so why do people have to be like that, especially when the establishment voices have no interest in dredging up an old story? I mean if the NBA/sports complex is telling me what a great person and father Bryant was, who are you, with your "well actually..." to say otherwise?
Kudos to those who aren't backing down. Its not comfortable to do that - I don't think anyone who is a decent human being enjoys discussing rape/assault. And I suspect that even fewer people like to go against a popular narrative.
However this is how culture change occurs - and it will never come easy. People aren't going to change their views overnight but it is likely to happen over time, especially as the light is shown in places where people normally dont or wont look.
As we also saw upthread, there are, unfortunately, people out there who view rape/assault as an ideological issue or one where both sides almost always have some fault.
To these people, those bringing up the uncomfortable subject are "that person" who always has to ruin a good thing - in this case the honoring of a sports icon after their passing.
Its inconvenient and uncomfortable so why do people have to be like that, especially when the establishment voices have no interest in dredging up an old story? I mean if the NBA/sports complex is telling me what a great person and father Bryant was, who are you, with your "well actually..." to say otherwise?
Kudos to those who aren't backing down. Its not comfortable to do that - I don't think anyone who is a decent human being enjoys discussing rape/assault. And I suspect that even fewer people like to go against a popular narrative.
However this is how culture change occurs - and it will never come easy. People aren't going to change their views overnight but it is likely to happen over time, especially as the light is shown in places where people normally dont or wont look.
Very informative answer. One question: Kobe owned the chopper. Does that weigh into the pilot’s thinking?
The ‘copter was owned a charter service out of Long Beach, Kobe apparently had a leasing agreement with them. I’m sure the thought that Kobe had an appointment to make did enter into the pilots mind. The weather conditions at the time of the flight were MVFR which stands for marginal visual flight conditions which basically means the flight was doable under the visual flight rules but risky since, at the very least, the weather makes navigation and communication more difficult, which taxes the pilot’s abilities. Still, he was an experienced pilot with over 8200 hours of flight time. He had been flying for the charter service for over 10 years so he was very familiar with the weather that can occur in the LA basin. My guess is that he figured the flight would be more difficult but nothing he couldn’t handle.
They won three straight titles, which somehow GS never did. They are the only team to do that in the NBA besides Jordan's Bulls (twice!) since the sixties Celtics, pretty sure that qualifies as a full-fledged "superteam".
Sorry for being unclear. I was talking specifically about the 03-04 team with Payton and Malone both joining. That to me is more like LeBron and Bosh going to Miami, Durant heading to GSW, LeBron bringing AD to LA - the Voltron ring chasing thing.
Those two were running on fumes by the time they got to LA trying to get a ring before retiring, Payton was 35 in his 14th season and Malone was 40 in his 19th (and final) season. Neither was very good anymore. The better comparison is Barkley going to the already-won-two-titles Rockets for three seasons, one conference finals loss and two first round losses and then Barkley retired.
That’s fair. And I’d forgotten till now Payton did win with the Heat in 06, contributing about 8ppg and 3 assists and rebounds.
And then ATC put them in a holding pattern for 12 minutes. Maybe they get through the clouds if not for the delay.
And the pilot affirmed every request of ATC. If the pilot asked for expedited attention due to deteriorating conditions I'm guessing (and hoping) ATC would have accommodated.
I'll wait for the experts to chime in with how the protocol for this actually works.
The weather was MVFR all day. We don't know what was the primary cause of the accident but I think the 12 minute delay had little to do with it.
No way for Brady. He’s got that complicated legacy thing as well because it may have been more probable than not that he was generally aware of a scheme that was more probable than not designed to deflate footballs, possibly. An evidentiary standard within an evidentiary standard. Plus, for some reason, ESPN will be like, he got convicted in a court of law or something so that’s definitive. Also, he got that woman pregnant and broke up with her. Too complicated. They’re not changing the NFL logo to a Brady silhouette.
Kobe died in a crazy tragic accident way too young; when hopefully the other icons die well into old age they’ll be remembered and memorialized, but not like this. It’s when and how Kobe died that is making everyone go slightly nuts about this. If God forbid Tommy died in a tragic accident tomorrow of course he’d be getting this same outpouring of love and reverence.
They’re going so nuts they forgot about the whole rape thing. That makes sense. Early death erases past sins.
I mean, he won an Oscar two years ago and was cheered, clearly the majority of people had forgotten about the rape long before he died.
When Polanski was cheered in absentia, do you think the people there had forgotten why he couldn’t attend or just didn’t care?
It's not going to end anytime soon either. With the NBA All-Star game coming up it's gonna be an embarrassing flow of overkill tributes. It's already WAY over the top.
Well, he got convicted. But maybe since he didn’t serve any time in jail it was like an exoneration to some. Like, when the state dropped the charges against Bryant because the victim declined to participate after 14 months of threats and intimidation, it’s an exoneration. Shout down that complaining witness and we can establish innocence. Have we come so far that we’ve come full circle or did we just never leave the station?
It’s just gotten completely and utterly ridiculous. Guys changing numbers. People talking about the league retiring his numbers. Petitions to have Kobe be the logo. Good lord it’s now officially way over the top and slow the fuck down. Way too many people have lost their ever loving minds.
Deliberately avoiding ESPN for the next few days. They are not going to let this thing fade. The morbidity of it all. FFS, people don't cry that much when their mom dies.
I’m not sure about betting lines. But this is a great way to cut down the chances of victims reporting sexual assaults to law enforcement which in turns lowers the burden on prosecution offices across the board since they have fewer reports to review. It emboldens current or future offenders as well since they know even if a victim complains, they have a good idea the victim will drop from the case after a flurry of death threats. It’s just a win-win across the board. At this point, just make rape legal one day a year on January 26th so we can truly honor his legacy. It’s like The Purge but for rapes.
I couldn't help but read that phrase as: an evolutionary standard within an evidentiary standard. I've been out of the country for a long time, but wasn't there some complicated song about Bridget as Brady's baby mama?
I think SoSH has a better ear than ESPN for the Kobe legacy. The day that the NBA adopts the Kobe image for the Logo or any other basketball imago will be its downfall.
I just feel compelled to post this: https://www.latimes.com/sports/lakers/story/2020-01-26/lakers-kobe-bryant-obit
See how long it took them to get to the rape trial. More than one paragraph.
Yep, total afterthought/obligatory mention in the Time Magazine cover story, 10th/11th paragraph and just this bullshit:
"Bryant’s biography included another critical element: in 2003, he was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The criminal case was dropped after Bryant’s accuser refused to testify in court. A civil suit ended with a settlement. Bryant issued a statement of apology, which read in part: “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”
The case failed to derail Bryant’s career, and by the time he retired, it tended to be mentioned reluctantly, if at all, in assessments of his legacy. In the era before #MeToo, an NBA superstar could commute between games and court appearances without apparent consequence."
https://time.com/5774268/kobe-bryant-basketball-legacy/
Edit: Although at least they ran this also:
https://time.com/5773151/kobe-bryant-rape-case-complicated-legacy/
"Bryant’s biography included another critical element: in 2003, he was arrested and charged with sexual assault. The criminal case was dropped after Bryant’s accuser refused to testify in court. A civil suit ended with a settlement. Bryant issued a statement of apology, which read in part: “After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.”
The case failed to derail Bryant’s career, and by the time he retired, it tended to be mentioned reluctantly, if at all, in assessments of his legacy. In the era before #MeToo, an NBA superstar could commute between games and court appearances without apparent consequence."
https://time.com/5774268/kobe-bryant-basketball-legacy/
Edit: Although at least they ran this also:
https://time.com/5773151/kobe-bryant-rape-case-complicated-legacy/
Can't believe that the Trailblazers didn't get the memo about lying down for the Lakers last night. How rude of them to ruin the big night.
I haven't been as surprised by an outcome since the Diamondbacks failed to do their patriotic duty in 2001.
I haven't been as surprised by an outcome since the Diamondbacks failed to do their patriotic duty in 2001.
Damn, that’s strikingly well-put. Not that I was particularly skeptical of her allegations, but really drives home important aspects their credibility.
As always, this place is at its best when people who know what they’re talking about post. That goes for people like Preacher, who’ve dealt with stuff like this in a professional capacity, and especially for the victims of sexual assault (and the loved ones of victims), posting about the impact that the public reverence of Kobe has had on them.
Weekend sports talk host in Chicago just used the phrase ,"...and because he was a beautiful person".
Its fucking disgusting.
Its fucking disgusting.
On the other hand, former Celtic great Don Nelson immediately acknowledged his daughter he didn't know he had. They have an incredible relationship and I am proud to call her a very close friend. Nelly lives his best life.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2019/06/24/don-nelson-on-weed-poker-mortality-and-the-daughter-he-had-out-of-wedlock/
OK. I did send private replies to a few individuals and I would like to acknowledge @Preacher's more thoughtful response. However - in both cases, I was encouraged to post my thoughts here... so, I will.
The following are, or are related to, publicly available details (ie. the transcripts of interviews, preliminary hearing testimony, and other available case info). I'm not going to link every item - but you can find the transcripts on TheSmokingGun and we can chase specific other items, if necessary.
What did you think about the points the defense brought up in the preliminary hearing about the other elements of the SANE exam and the conclusions?
What do you think about credibility of the accounts in both Kobe's police interview and the accusers?
Are you aware that there is no dispute about what happened through them meeting... him asking her for a tour... her agreeing and sneaking back to his room... taking a tour... various moments of mutual flirting... going back to his room... and making out for 5 minutes?
Are you aware that the dispute focuses on the 5-ish minutes of sex, though they both agree it stopped when he asked about finishing. and what happened after?
Did you know the accuser maintain a couple of lies, but most importantly one about her being kept from leaving and forced to clean up (this went toward the notion of false imprisonment and overall guilt/menace of Kobe) for over a year... before finally admitting this was not true and she just said this because she thought it made her story more believable?
Are you aware that as the police were questioning Kobe they asked him about a lot of the elements of the accuser's interview - without a lawyer present - and that Kobe responses were largely consistent - including some not-so-flattering and explicit parts - but didn't match her recollection of, what I'll call, his "evil villain" lines.
In light of the accuser's other "believability" lie - does that not give you pause?
Are you aware that of the two people that encountered her after the incident - where we now know she didn't clean herself up hotel room per Kobe's instruction, but at a mirror by the elevator (sic?), according to her new version - one didn't see anything unusual and thought she seemed normal and continued on with her normal end-of-shift behavior.
Are you aware that the guy with the more dramatic story of the accuser in distress also acknowledged having (condom covered) sex with her within the past 48 hours? While I wouldn't claim the circumstances surrounding the two accounts lead to only one set of conclusions - do they not give you pause?
Are you aware of the distinction between the phrases the officers used in questioning Kobe (bruises on neck... lot of blood...) and the reality of what happened? There were no bruises or even red marks on her neck. None on her arms. A single half-penny size mark on her jawline was the only thing - and even that was only noted at the hospital and not by officers that first looked at the accuser.
Are you are that there was actually not a lot of blood? Are you aware that this fact impacted officer behavior (decision to not look for blood in room)? Are you aware that even the accuser only claimed there was a small amount?
Are you aware of the details of the blood evidence on Kobe's shirt?
I'd guess you're aware of the multiple underwear/semen/blood/pubic hair/sex-with-another-guy-after-Kobe-but-before-SANE-exam, issues. Does none of that give you pause?
I'd assume you're aware of the mental health history.
I'd imagine you know of some of the friend/acquaintance accounts about the accuser's behavior and statements she made, before and after the accusation.
I know you know that Kobe did not admit guilt and actually said he believed the entire encounter was consensual. It isn't ambiguous.
I know you know that charges were dropped.
^In light of all of that - no pause is given?
I've seen these forums sometimes stray from "sports forum where sensitive issues get discussed (as they relate to athletes)" to something closer to "support group for people who have been affected by those sensitive issues." I'm not trying to trigger anyone's emotions or open old wounds - but it would be nice to be able to talk about facts in situations like this (in this place) and not be shouted down by people just waving their hands claiming "settled science" or going off on some kind of passive-aggressive cultural pontification designed to dismiss a reply, without actually offering dismissive reasoning.
