It's no big deal. She's only getting death threats now.
View: https://twitter.com/HodaAndJenna/status/1225802679630356481?s=20
Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash
- Thread starter glennhoffmania
- Start date
View: https://twitter.com/HodaAndJenna/status/1225802679630356481?s=20
The NTSB has started talking ahead of releasing their preliminary findings.
There are two key items, in my opinion:
-The Instrument panel was destroyed. Due to the fact that there is no cockpit voice recorder nor flight data recorder on the aircraft, I think the NTSB is messaging that the ADSB data might be the best information we have. No word on what kind of data was gained from the iPad, personal Cell phones etc, those might help get a better idea of flight parameters prior to impact, but we likely won't have highly accurate on board flight parameter data.
-The engines were running at impact. The ESPN article makes some stupid reference to a tree limb being hit by blades and that means the engines were running, but that is nonsense. The blades would be turning regardless of engine status. They very likely scoped the engine cores and were able to determine the rotational speed of the engine turbines at the time of impact based on the witnessing on the turbine blades and some other forensic magic.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-07/kobe-bryant-helicopter-showed-no-signs-of-engine-failure-ntsb-says https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/key-questions-unanswered-in-kobe-bryant-crash-as-ntsb-prepares-preliminary-report/ar-BBZJqbJ
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28654661/no-engine-failure-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-investigators-say
There are two key items, in my opinion:
-The Instrument panel was destroyed. Due to the fact that there is no cockpit voice recorder nor flight data recorder on the aircraft, I think the NTSB is messaging that the ADSB data might be the best information we have. No word on what kind of data was gained from the iPad, personal Cell phones etc, those might help get a better idea of flight parameters prior to impact, but we likely won't have highly accurate on board flight parameter data.
-The engines were running at impact. The ESPN article makes some stupid reference to a tree limb being hit by blades and that means the engines were running, but that is nonsense. The blades would be turning regardless of engine status. They very likely scoped the engine cores and were able to determine the rotational speed of the engine turbines at the time of impact based on the witnessing on the turbine blades and some other forensic magic.
https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2020-02-07/kobe-bryant-helicopter-showed-no-signs-of-engine-failure-ntsb-says https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/key-questions-unanswered-in-kobe-bryant-crash-as-ntsb-prepares-preliminary-report/ar-BBZJqbJ
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28654661/no-engine-failure-kobe-bryant-helicopter-crash-investigators-say
I found a couple of things that were very interesting in that LA Times article.
So probably the crash was not caused by a mechanical problem, at least with the engines or drive train.
Regarding the bolded, I never heard that before now. GF09, correct me if I’m wrong but doesn’t a Part 135 flight require the pilot to be instrument rated? If so, then ascend through the cloud cover shouldn’t have been a problem for a pilot with his experience. Still, it’s looking like the crash was due to pilot error as a result of spatial disorientation.
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The NTSB preliminary investigation update.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf
The pilot was instrument rated:
Snoop Dogg threatens Gayle King ...
NEW YORK (AP) — The CBS News chief called threats against journalist Gayle King “reprehensible” Saturday as backlash grew against rapper Snoop Dogg and others critical of King for an interview where she asked about a sexual assault charge against the late Kobe Bryant.
Snoop Dogg had threatened King online this week following her interview with WNBA player Lisa Leslie about Bryant, the former Los Angeles Lakers star killed in a helicopter crash on Jan. 26.
“We fully support Gayle King and her integrity as a journalist,” CBS News President Susan Zirinsky told the Associated Press. “We find the threats against her or any journalist doing their job reprehensible.”
CBS would not discuss the nature of any private threats against King. Her friend, Oprah Winfrey, said in an NBC interview that King had received death threats and was traveling with security.
The rapper had joined with others, including 50 Cent and Bill Cosby, in criticizing King for asking Leslie whether Bryant's legacy had been complicated by the accusation that he raped a woman at a Colorado resort in 2003. Bryant said the two had consensual sex, but he later apologized for his behavior and settled a civil suit against him.
In a profane video posted on Instagram and shared on other social media platforms, Snoop Dogg criticized King for attacking “your people." He told her to “back off ... before we come get you."
King's questions had attracted little notice as part of a wide-ranging interview shown on “CBS This Morning.” But then CBS — mistakenly, it said later — posted a video online that focused strictly on the discussion about the assault case.
“The interview with Lisa Leslie was comprehensive and thoughtful,” Zirinsky said. “We are a country where differences of opinion are welcome, but hateful and dangerous threats are completely unacceptable.”
I mean, any time you can lend your voice to notes feminists like Bill Cosby and 50 Cent, you gotta make yourself heard.
It’s funny that Snoop name checks Cosby as being innocent.
It’s funny that Snoop name checks Cosby as being innocent.
I dont believe people should be lionized just because they were blessed with incredible athletic ability, but Kobe seemed to be more interested in philanthropic activity than most athletes and seemed to be a pretty good guy. There have numerous stories of him being friendly with fans that met him. There is also the incident in Colorado and there are articles about him being a womanizer. I don't know how to reconcile all that and it doesn't matter.
These debates could have occurred 5 or 10 years ago so I don't understand why it should now become a big discussion because he died. It seems most people have focused on the goods things about him and that is their right. Kobe is gone, so if the "he was a rapist" crowd is successful in tarnishing his legacy, the only people affected will be his family.
These debates could have occurred 5 or 10 years ago so I don't understand why it should now become a big discussion because he died. It seems most people have focused on the goods things about him and that is their right. Kobe is gone, so if the "he was a rapist" crowd is successful in tarnishing his legacy, the only people affected will be his family.
I mean, Snoop had a credible accessory to murder charge on him. Maybe finding some fellowship in that.
It would be easy to fire off a sarcastic or scathing response to this but I believe you are making this post in good faith so I will respond in kind. Imo, its the only way we can move forward as a society versus "cancelling" someone who doesn't agree with you.
In short, you are likely right that the rape allegations are painful for Bryant's family and friends. Its also doesn't square with the Kobe hagiography that followed his death. Its clear he was hugely influential in sports and popular culture amongst women as well as men.
That said, we are now living in a time when we are starting to be more honest about the behaviors of the rich and powerful people. People who have been victimized now have more of a voice - if you read some of the posts in this thread from people like Preacher, you will realize that this is not trivial. In most cases, the victims of assault have to go through even more trauma just to simply seek justice. But a few brave ones kept going and fortunately other stories are now being told. That is partly the answer to your question about why this is being brought up now.
Finally, as painful as an honest (I prefer that to the term "tarnishing") look at Bryant's legacy is in the wake of his passing, you have to realize that his victim and others have suffered far longer than Kobe's family.
Its inconvenient if you are a Bryant fan or you simply don't feel comfortable speaking ill of someone after they have passed. But if you are a fan of seeking truth, it has to happen, even if it topples some of our heroes.
I still think it's pointless. Most people are aware of what happened in Colorado, but many of them are choosing to say nice things about him and how his passing has affected them. Others are focused on the rape accusation and are offended by all the adulation. No minds will be changed. The story will run its course in a few weeks and no final Kobe approval rate poll will be conducted.
Well we can disagree there.
Humanity's history is littered with almost countless examples of people of status exploiting those of lesser standing, often in a horrific fashion. Its uncomfortable for people to see people we admire exposed and for tidy narratives to unravel. However if we want to evolve collectively, we need to acknowledge that even extremely talented, otherwise good people can commit terrible acts. Kobe's friends and family may have to suffer though this but if discussing the Colorado incident deters bad behavior going forward, its clearly worth it.
Heck, its worth it even if you believe that Bryant didn't do what was alleged but younger athletes act more cautiously going forward in terms of whom they interact with and how even consenting parties may have a difference of opinion on what that actually means.
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When you argue for the status quo, which is what highminded theses like these ultimately do, you argue for keeping a system in which rape and sexual assault is more or less permitted. If you don’t think anyone should try to change minds on that; it’s a tacit endorsement, no?
Only thing I can think of is that either they hit something or temporarily lost power and the pilot wasn't able to recover in time.
4000 feet doesn't sound like you would hit something though.
According to my BiL, any time you go through the clouds you’re at risk for spatial disorientation. His take was that people always want to pinpoint the one thing that went wrong and make it explainable and rational, but humans - even highly trained ones - goof up. Overestimate their abilities. Get distracted.
People crash cars or trip over nothing or bump into walls all the time. But, when it’s a big event like a copter crash that killed a celeb, people need to find a deeper reason.
That’s his take, anyways.
. Well, they did hit the Earth
Read the preliminary report from the NTSB that GF09 posted. So far there is no indication of an mid-air collision with something and the damage to the rotors and engines indicates they were operating under power at the time of impact. The ADS-B data shows the aircraft was in a descending, left turn and, near the end of the turn, the descent rate increased to over 4,000ft/ minute before hitting the ground. An eyewitness also said the helicopter started to roll to the left and he caught a glimpse of its belly shortly before impact. The NTSB is still analyzing the flight control computers so we don’t know if they were functioning correctly at the time of the crash. It’s way too early to come to a conclusion as to what caused the crash but, so far, I read the data as indicating pilot error, possibly due to spatial disorientation. Take that fwiw since I’m just some guy on a sports message board.
https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/Documents/DCA20MA059-Investigative-Update.pdf
^^^^
Okay that clears some things up. But it doesn't explain why the pilot descended and turned left, esp when he said on the ATC that he was going up. Even disoriented you would have to think that instinctively you wouldn't, say, descend, and if maintained altitude they would have been OK. This doesn't look like a case like the pilot didn't realize where they were and crashed into the hill.
Okay that clears some things up. But it doesn't explain why the pilot descended and turned left, esp when he said on the ATC that he was going up. Even disoriented you would have to think that instinctively you wouldn't, say, descend, and if maintained altitude they would have been OK. This doesn't look like a case like the pilot didn't realize where they were and crashed into the hill.
The usefulness of these kinds of conversations is an empirical question, and when it comes to sexual assault given the huge change in consciousness we've seen around these issues in the past few years I feel comfortable saying you are wrong to think its pointless.
I think it comes down to that old idiom, “Never meet your heroes.” I’d take it a step further: don’t have heroes. Recognize people for their great accomplishments, for sure, but that’s the sum of it. It’s the effort to lionize Kobe, which necessarily requires diminishing his crime, that is causing the problems here. A lifetime of good works could not erase that. The closest he could have come, should he have lived, is to make amends with the victim.
These two videos might help you understand spatial disorientation. The bottom line is that our inner ear is not really designed for flying and even the most experienced pilots can get completely lost in the clouds.
View: https://youtu.be/7vdT9FEvB3Q
View: https://youtu.be/n1xH0NCPgTg
One thing you should be aware of when discussing helicopters is that, unlike fixed wing aircraft, they are dynamically unstable: they cannot maintain a steady flight regime. The pilot (or autopilot) must continuously make adjustments and control movements in order to keep the helicopter traveling in the intended direction. So if the pilot did become disoriented, then I would expect the helicopter to fly in what we would consider a radical manner. Again, this is all speculation on my part so your opinion is just as valid as mine. We will just have wait for the NTSB to detemin a likely cause.
This is where I am at. If you dont want to hear skepticism, dont look to expect us to sing hosannas while you elevate him on a pedestal.
And from a flawed but must respect the awesome pov... he isn't even the best player of his generation. Do you take kobe over tim?
Years ago I would have thought you are right as well, but then I went on the Tower of Terror at Disney World
The only way I knew if I was going up or down was when my chain was hitting me in the face, otherwise I was clueless. When the doors opened at the top to show you how high up you were, I would have sworn we had been descending right before that
Good times though, I hate rides and don't love flying, but that ride helped me get over bits of turbulence when flying
When I first read about the flight path and listened to the audio, in which the pilot went silent, my first thought was a medical emergency. I wonder if an autopsy on the pilot is being done (or even could be done given the state of the body). No idea if I'm right or not, but I'd be curious to know if BWB or Gunfighter think it's a possibility.
His last communication was that he was going to climb above the cloud level. He climbed to 2300' and was just another 100 feet away from doing so. Instead, he made a hard left turn and started a descent that ended with the crash.
My knowledge is limited to flying with my Dad, but there was a dial that showed the positional relationship of the plane to the horizon. Shouldn't Kobe's pilot have been able to use such a dial to keep the helicopter flying level?
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I am becoming less resistant to the Spacial D alone theory. I’ve been there, of course never single piloted.
The climbing to 2300' (100' short of the top of the layer, a fact they couldn't know) and then descending back down can really be a few things in my mind:
- Climbing through 800-1000 of marine layer fog while trying to quickly establish an instrument scan and figure out the navigation and airspace problem you have given yourself by climbing out of "helicopter altitudes" can feel like it is taking forever. He might have just gotten impatient waiting to break out on top and made the decision to go back down under the layer and not popped back out until he was in an unsurvivable position relative to the terrain. -
- He could have had spacial D from the moment that he popped into the clouds and most of the flight path driving inputs were actually poorly controlled inputs that only were a result of him struggling to regain control of the aircraft.
-He could have been on his way to popping out on top and some external input convinced him to turn around and go back down - a medical emergency, an aircraft issue, running into a bird or UAS etc. He might have misread his map software and thought he was about to climb into some airspace without a clearance and elected to go back down. But that descending turn looks "controlled" or at least intentional to me, so I think something motivated him to go back down rather than impatience or spacial D.
Bob is right, the NTSB report will give us the best idea, I bet they have enough sources of information from the wreckage to figure most of it out.
The mantra pilots are taught from day one is Aviate, Navigate and Communicate, so I don't read to much into the fact the pilot wasn’t talking to ATC before the crash. From the accident reports I’ve read it‘s actually quite common not to hear anything from the pilot(s) before the crash.
Autopsies and drug-screenings are mandated by the FAA for fatal accidents. In this particular case, the autopsies were performed by the LA County Medical Examiner-Coroner. They haven‘t released any information regarding any toxicology reports but the most recent press release say the victims all died by blunt trauma.
Since this was a Part 135 flight, the pilot was subject to routine drug testing.
https://www.faa.gov/documentlibrary/media/order/faa_order_8020.11d.pdf
https://mec.lacounty.gov/2020/press-releases/nine-helicopter-crash-victims-identified/
My takeaway from those is that the pilot could have started to ascend through the cloud layer, as he told ATC, and thought he was accelerating while going up but was actually accelerating while going down. Can it be that simple?
I have a feeling this will be one of those accidents where the NTSB attributes the crash to pilot error but cannot determine the exact cause. Instead they will use phrases like “most likely caused by X, possibly due to Y.”
Yep. Look at the pilot in the second video around the 2:30 mark. He said he easily would have rolled the aircraft based on what his ears were telling him if he didn’t have the visual cues.
If you read this thread - and your post suggests that you perhaps haven't - you'd come across various people, fellow posters, who have either been sexually assaulted or raped, or had someone very close to them who was and for whom it was very traumatic even at a degree of removal.
These people are, to some degree, re-victimized each time it's reinforced in the national dialogue that someone who's famous or powerful can commit these crimes and not just get away with it but thrive. And if that doesn't make sense to you and your gut reaction is "who cares?" or "you didn't know Kobe, what does it matter to you?", I think these posts, or maybe some direct good-faith dialogue with them, can help illuminate why that's important.
It didn't use to make sense to me either, but I've come to understand that celebrity is not just a set of common stories that we share and can relate with in this vast and diverse country, it's also a statement of what we value. Just as much as great public figures can inspire us to action, entertain us or move us, that same power to remain in our consciousness can be used for negative ends, as well. When OJ's life came apart, he was a football player to us, but he was a symbol and a pillar to the black community. His struggle was their struggle, no matter the facts. The list of celebrities who have essentially gotten away with molesting a child is long and ugly (everyone from MJ to R Kelly to billionaire SC Johnson to Stephen Collins, and reflects something about what we care about as a society and the extent to which our instincts are (or should be) to protect the vulnerable. So too, when any of the many, many rape victims out there (and in here) are confronted with story after story about men who've raped someone, and not only pay no real price for it but are praised to the point where it feels like people truly prefer to believe it never happened. It reinforces that message just as powerfully as our modern media ecosystem reinforces other banal or more-positive messages: you don't matter, your pain doesn't matter, the law does not and will not protect you, there are no rules, go fuck off.
If that sounds melodramatic to you, I encourage you to listen to some stories from victims of how all this praise of Kobe makes them feel (or, say, Floyd Mayweather), and then see if you'd still maintain your statement that I've bolded.
What could possibly go wrong with Boeing Software.....
No in all honesty thanks for posting. I,maybe like many, have had a hard time wrapping my head around how someone could not "feel" this. This helped.
I have no idea the physics of a helicopter at 2300 feet...
Could he have just stopped forward momentum and hovered? Then, using instruments, gone straight up until he broke the fog layer?
I presume the gauges can indicate forward airspeed and elevation and just go by those?
probably over simplifying.
Could he have just stopped forward momentum and hovered? Then, using instruments, gone straight up until he broke the fog layer?
I presume the gauges can indicate forward airspeed and elevation and just go by those?
probably over simplifying.
Helicopter pilots use visual references to hover. You can't do that inside of a cloud.
Airspeed and altimeter are not enough?
If one is IFR rated (redundant) why could hover not be achieved with instruments alone? Could one slide (yaw?) laterally?
If that is easy to explain in laypeople terms. In general not even just kobe related. Thanks
A few problems with the "IFR hover"
-Helicopter (or any pitot static system) airspeed indicators are not terribly accurate below 40 knots. So achieving 0 airspeed is a relative thing.
-The air is not still. You have to make near constant (but not too constant) inputs to the main rotor to stay in one place to account for the variations in wind velocity and direction.
-Hovering requires referencing close in objects and not moving relative to them. High hovers above 100 feet or so are more difficult due to the distance away from the references the pilot is scanning for relative motion.
-Some helicopters have a display that shows GPS generated velocity vectors relative to a small box on the display, and this is somewhat helpful for long hovers at night. These instruments don't measure your heading very well, so you can get the aircraft to stop in one direction, but there is no really way to know if you have applied the proper amount of anti-torque to the tail rotor and are not slowly spinning in one place without visual reference. You could cross reference the heading indictor to help with this, but that starts to get difficult, especially single piloted. There is only so much RAM between the ears of your average pilot. Once again, you are still missing the small inputs needed to counter act winds near the aircraft.
-Most helicopters advertise a minimum IFR speed of around 60 knots or so to avoid getting into these situations. I am not sure what that number is for the S-76.
-Some more advanced helicopters have a hover hold mode that can engage below 40kts or so, provided a constant heading. These are typically used by search and rescue helicopters for hovering over water with little visual reference. They are still using visual reference to get into the position where they can activate the hover mode (usually aided by a radar or some type), so it is not really applicable to this scenario.
Not sure what to make of this
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28754306/pilot-kobe-bryant-crash-had-faa-violation-2015
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28754306/pilot-kobe-bryant-crash-had-faa-violation-2015
It’s a crap article. In five years of flying that was the only violation they could find? And apparently he learned from it.
https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28773196/vanessa-bryant-sues-helicopter-company-deaths
Wrongful death lawsuit filed today. I kind of agree with the article that it is a little unusual that she wouldn't at least wait until the FAA completes it's investigation.
Wrongful death lawsuit filed today. I kind of agree with the article that it is a little unusual that she wouldn't at least wait until the FAA completes it's investigation.
I'll never understand why the natural process in an accidental death always has to involve a lawsuit. The money won't bring them back and it's not like the Bryants are hurting for capital. No need to piss in the face of the family of the guy who died that doesn't have billions coming in from jersey sales, endorsements, and the like.
You want to strike now with the lawsuit. The money is pointless. It’s all about image. You don’t want the image of Bryant to be that of a guy who was more likely than not a rapist to potentially continue which may occur were it not for the lawsuit (sit ideally by and the media continues to churn). If that’s the case, the foundation crashes. If you continue as the victim, then Bryant’s victim is quickly forgotten (again) and continually pushed aside. This is how perpetrators win. This is why victims don’t come forward. I find the Weinstein verdict and the Bryant memorial occurring on the same day particularly interesting.
And maybe Bryant if filing the lawsuit along with the other families, or to be the first because she can afford it, of those who have passed who may not have millions of dollars coming in every year. In turn allowing those kids and families financial support in a time of need.
If it’s in any way a viable case, 1000 good attorneys would take it at cost for the publicity, or at the very least on contingency. They’re not gonna shit whatever Vanessa Bryant eats.
Hell, it’s just as possible the other families go after Bryant’s estate for negligent hiring or some crap. I’m guessing he’s the deepest pocket at play.
Suing the pilot won’t accomplish that. Alternatively, spot the other families the legal fees if you feel so strongly.
Interesting. Thank you for sharing your expertise, much appreciated. All I (we, most of us) see are videos of helicopters doing great things and can't appreciate the detail / intricacy / difficulty involved really.
Feel free at any point to provide an example of a part 121 or 135 operator that killed passengers and wasn't sued by the estate(s) of the dead passengers.
I think you are projecting your distaste for the deceased onto the widow (who also lost her not selling many sneakers daughter) and I don't think that is entirely appropriate.
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