Kobe Killed in Helicopter Crash

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Sunny von Bulow
SoSH Member
Jan 10, 2004
24,483
The 718
I dunno. It’s a pretty crappy post that trivializes the experiences of rape survivors on this board while bringing in V&N elements to a thread that doesn’t need it.

This Kobe matter isn’t a liberal vs. conservative matter so it’s weird to tie that together with peoples’ opinions of Kobe. If the post stays, we’re going to see a SoSH pile on that ends the quality of this thread.

We absolutely need to consider opposite perspectives on these issues but you can make them in a respectful way. He/she didn’t.
I agree it’s not a respectful perspective. It’s hostile, unhinged, and devoid of anything productive. I think it’s important because it shows what some people think and how that informs what society does.

The mask has slipped here.
 

CR67dream

blue devils forevah!
Dope
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Oct 4, 2001
7,206
I'm going home
I agree it’s not a respectful perspective. It’s hostile, unhinged, and devoid of anything productive. I think it’s important because it shows what some people think and how that informs what society does.

The mask has slipped here.
I agree 100%. And he is gone for good, so there is no need for anyone to pile on. Thanks to everyone who has contributed in a productive way here.
 

Sam Ray Not

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Jul 19, 2005
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I have a fat 30 something cousin who got his wife pregnant, neither holding a job, and they moved back to NY from Ohio to reap the benefits of being professional leeches
Is he the 400 lb. fat guy sitting on his bed who messed with the 2016 election?
 

Dehere

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Apr 25, 2010
3,143
I'm commentating on a European Basketball Champions League game today (between a Hungarian club and an Italian club), and I've just received an email from my coordinating producer which says that this message has been passed along to clubs and onsite personnel at all of the games taking place today and tomorrow:

I'm really wondering what to say in the aftermath of this tribute. There are a lot of things I'm thinking I'd want to say, some of which might get me removed from future basketball commentary assignments; given that my game is very far removed from Kobe and the NBA, it's more likely I'll just reference Kobe's Italian connections and - in the context of a brief appraisal of his career - allude to the fact that Bryant's legacy is darker and more complicated than all of the glowing tributes which have come out in the past 48 hours might make it seem.
FWIW I think the FIBA-approved copy that you quote is actually pretty good. It’s significant that they say "The basketball world mourns” rather than “the world mourns” and that they call Kobe “an icon of the game” rather than just “an icon”

The next paragraph is simply factual. I could see amending “legend” to “basketball legend” or just dropping the word, but it also seems ok to just read it as written if that’s your preference.

The copy makes no comment as to Kobe’s character or his life outside of basketball, and you may not be obligated to either. Really I wish more US media were adopting the tone of this tribute.
 
FWIW I think the FIBA-approved copy that you quote is actually pretty good. It’s significant that they say "The basketball world mourns” rather than “the world mourns” and that they call Kobe “an icon of the game” rather than just “an icon”

The next paragraph is simply factual. I could see amending “legend” to “basketball legend” or just dropping the word, but it also seems ok to just read it as written if that’s your preference.

The copy makes no comment as to Kobe’s character or his life outside of basketball, and you may not be obligated to either. Really I wish more US media were adopting the tone of this tribute.
FWIW, I don't think I'm supposed to read any of that copy - the bit at the end in italics will be read by the public address announcers in each arena, I think, so anything I'd say would have to pivot off of that.

(The bit I struggled with in reading the whole of that message was the part about Kobe being a "great role model" - I don't need to rehash this entire thread for anyone to understand why that phrasing is problematic.)
 

EvilEmpire

paying for his sins
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Apr 9, 2007
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I don't think I've ever been called a "white knight liberal" before, and I've been called lots of things. :confused:
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Aug 23, 2008
51,291
FWIW, I don't think I'm supposed to read any of that copy - the bit at the end in italics will be read by the public address announcers in each arena, I think, so anything I'd say would have to pivot off of that.

(The bit I struggled with in reading the whole of that message was the part about Kobe being a "great role model" - I don't need to rehash this entire thread for anyone to understand why that phrasing is problematic.)
I'd guess most people outside the American basketball sphere wouldn't even know what you were referring to regarding a darker legacy. Cristiano Ronaldo, probably one of the 5 or 10 most famous athletes in the world for example, was accused of rape in the United States by an American and I'd bet most Americans have already forgotten the story despite it happening in the last year or so.
 

SeoulSoxFan

I Want to Hit the World with Rocket Punch
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Jun 27, 2006
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I don't think I've ever been called a "white knight liberal" before, and I've been called lots of things. :confused:
And I ain't even white. I want my money back, possibly towards a Prius or a fair trade bag of Chai leaves.

P. S. So hbk's been online since 1990-something, eh? I think the first time I was online was around 1984 on my Vic20. Now get off my 1200 baud Vicmodem!
 
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YTF

Member
SoSH Member
I know that most mods on forums are white knight liberals, being that employed Conservatives don't have time to play on message board forums all day (hey, that's a perk for you lefties, getting a check in the mail without getting off of your ass).

Everything I posted was factually. I'm sorry that some of you haven't reached puberty yet, and the world is still black and white to you. Don't worry, someday you'll grow up.

Most of you on this forum are great, even those that I disagree with on baseball or other issues. But the select few who seem to want to control the conversation, those are the people who I have a problem with. It's becoming an issue on most forums, like twitter and facebook. I've bee online since 1996, and while there were flame wars and trolls back then, everyone was given an opportunity to speak freely. You seem to want to erase any history or speech that dents your bubble, it's why you're trying to have statues removed, people fired from their jobs for tweets, etc, in the belief that erasing the past will change it. It won't.

But,alas, it's 2020, and the far left can't have that. They not only lost at life, they're trying to drag everyone down with them. I know, I have a fat 30 something cousin who got his wife pregnant, neither holding a job, and they moved back to NY from Ohio to reap the benefits of being professional leeches.

Judging from the reaction to the the Felicia Sonmez suspension, I'm glad that the majority are still decent people who know that there is a time and a place for bringing up the past upon someone's tragic death. The same people who called al-Baghdadi 'a scholar' and
praised Soleimani after his assassination, just because they can't stand Trump.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmWh2k7pGw&t=175s


For those here trying to make it about themselves, your being sexually assaulted (though we're only hearing one side) doesn't make you an expert as my totaling two vehicles doesn't make me a forensic scientist on Dale Earnhardt's crash

I know this post won't stay up long, you can't have dissent in your safe space. Go ahead and delete my account, that'll really change my life
What's incredibly odd/stupid about this is that the mods encouraged both side of the conversation to continue minus personal attacks. I find that to be more than fair.
 

pappymojo

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SoSH Member
Jul 28, 2010
6,668
I know that most mods on forums are white knight liberals, being that employed Conservatives don't have time to play on message board forums all day (hey, that's a perk for you lefties, getting a check in the mail without getting off of your ass).

Everything I posted was factually. I'm sorry that some of you haven't reached puberty yet, and the world is still black and white to you. Don't worry, someday you'll grow up.

Most of you on this forum are great, even those that I disagree with on baseball or other issues. But the select few who seem to want to control the conversation, those are the people who I have a problem with. It's becoming an issue on most forums, like twitter and facebook. I've bee online since 1996, and while there were flame wars and trolls back then, everyone was given an opportunity to speak freely. You seem to want to erase any history or speech that dents your bubble, it's why you're trying to have statues removed, people fired from their jobs for tweets, etc, in the belief that erasing the past will change it. It won't.

But,alas, it's 2020, and the far left can't have that. They not only lost at life, they're trying to drag everyone down with them. I know, I have a fat 30 something cousin who got his wife pregnant, neither holding a job, and they moved back to NY from Ohio to reap the benefits of being professional leeches.

Judging from the reaction to the the Felicia Sonmez suspension, I'm glad that the majority are still decent people who know that there is a time and a place for bringing up the past upon someone's tragic death. The same people who called al-Baghdadi 'a scholar' and
praised Soleimani after his assassination, just because they can't stand Trump.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chmWh2k7pGw&t=175s


For those here trying to make it about themselves, your being sexually assaulted (though we're only hearing one side) doesn't make you an expert as my totaling two vehicles doesn't make me a forensic scientist on Dale Earnhardt's crash

I know this post won't stay up long, you can't have dissent in your safe space. Go ahead and delete my account, that'll really change my life
Not to pile on, but in a single post, this genius both laments that people could be fired from their job for a tweet and then celebrates that someone was suspended from their job over a tweet.
 

The Social Chair

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SoSH Member
Feb 17, 2010
6,082
Zach Lowe with the best piece on Kobe as a basketball player I've read so far. He also makes sure to mention the rape case early in the piece. However, look at the text ESPN editors decided to add hyperlinks to in that paragraph.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28574908/kobe-bryant-greatness-was-beautiful-maddening
I also felt ambivalent entering his orbit. It was and is impossible to separate Bryant the basketball supernova from the man who was accused, in 2003, of sexually assaulting a 19-year-old woman in a Colorado hotel. Fourteen months later, prosecutors dropped the criminal charge when the woman declined to continue to participate in the case after a series of courthouse errors, including the release of her name. (Bryant and the woman subsequently settled her civil suit out of court.) Bryant issued a written apology, saying in part, "Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did." That was a real and serious concession. It is hard to reckon with now.
 

Preacher

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Jun 9, 2006
6,411
Pyeongtaek, South Korea
Nike pulling jersey from store to prevent profiteering off death. Will be interesting to see what happens in a few months

https://nypost.com/2020/01/27/kobe-bryant-gear-pulled-from-nikes-online-shop-in-wake-of-tragic-death/
Won't that drive up the prices on the merchandise that's already out there and buyers won't have a legitimate retailer to go to with Nike pulling the merchandise? That seems like an odd move. If Nike sees an increase in demand, they could up the supply and people could get legit merchandise from Nike rather than marked up at some re-seller.
 

InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
21,766
Pittsburgh, PA
I knew we were in for a good one after this opening line:
I know that most mods on forums are white knight liberals, being that employed Conservatives don't have time to play on message board forums all day (hey, that's a perk for you lefties, getting a check in the mail without getting off of your ass).
It'd be hard to even call it a blaze of glory, really. Wasn't this the same guy who was given a timeout a day or two ago?

Cracks me up on several levels. Not least because politically, the median SoSH mod is centrist-to-conservative, although far-more-relevant generalizations include "cerebral" and "even-keeled".

I'm trying to imagine him delivering that screed at a bar in front of other people. How far do you think he gets before the first "I'm gonna stop you right there..."? I guess the stuffed animals in his survivalist bunker don't talk back at him quite so much.

P. S. So hbk's been online since 1990-something, eh? I think the first time I was online was around 1984 on my Vic20. Now get off my 1200 baud Vicmodem!
Yeah okay Mr. OG, but didja have one of these? Huh?



Because we phoned the shit out of that 20-minute battery life!

edit: OK, I now see the admonitions about continuing down that line. No substantive reply coming from me here, I'll move on.
 
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santadevil

wears depends
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Aug 1, 2006
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Last, right before I was heading to be, my wife sends me a link of Jimmy Fallon's tribute to Kobe. Jimmy was a friend, so he was a bit shooken up by Kobe' and Gigi's deaths.

I made a comment to her about a rapist being dead. She replied back with, "Those charges were dropped".

I was floored and didn't want to engage further, because I was absolutely wiped from the long day I had a work. But, it just further emphasizes that point, people aren't informed, so they can't make informed judgements. Kobe's lawyer did exactly what she was paid for and the general public just kind of went "Meh", nothing to see here, charges were dropped

That's scary to me. My wife isn't an NBA fan, knew of Kobe because you just know the big names in the NBA, even when you aren't a fan
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I'm still in a bit of shock.

Why were they traveling at 185 MPH? That seems really fast given the conditions and altitude of travel.
This may provide clues. From link.
https://nypost.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-had-a-long-history-of-flying-in-helicopters/
Kobe used a chopper to play a trick on Pelinka, the LA Times reported in 2017.

Bryant had the pilot do military maneuvers on the chopper with Pelinka on board, and even turn the engine off in midair.

“My life was flashing before my eyes,” Pelinka told the newspaper. “I almost had a heart attack. Kobe’s just sitting there calm and collected.”
 

djbayko

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Jul 18, 2005
25,895
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This may provide clues. From link.
https://nypost.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-had-a-long-history-of-flying-in-helicopters/
Kobe used a chopper to play a trick on Pelinka, the LA Times reported in 2017.

Bryant had the pilot do military maneuvers on the chopper with Pelinka on board, and even turn the engine off in midair.

“My life was flashing before my eyes,” Pelinka told the newspaper. “I almost had a heart attack. Kobe’s just sitting there calm and collected.”
We have flight data and recordings. There's no evidence of this type of behavior here, correct?
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
I finally had the opportunity to read through much of the thread from Sunday. This thread was at game thread pace and I got caught up in it without reading the literally hundreds of previous posts. While my feelings of this case differ from many those who know me personally know that I would never intend to offend anyone who have suffered due to rape affecting them or their loved ones. For those who were offended please accept my apologies.
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
We have flight data and recordings. There's no evidence of this type of behavior here, correct?
None that I have seen. The link does provide some insight into Kobe and his pilots fear levels/mindset to where flying in fog wouldn’t seem to be something that would deter them from traveling to their destination. Basically, if you can shut an engine off in midair it is reasonable to believe that they aren’t going to worry about flying in fog or at a high rate of speed (and I have no idea what 185mph is in copter speed).
 

moondog80

heart is two sizes two small
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Sep 20, 2005
8,098
This may provide clues. From link.
https://nypost.com/2020/01/26/kobe-bryant-had-a-long-history-of-flying-in-helicopters/
Kobe used a chopper to play a trick on Pelinka, the LA Times reported in 2017.

Bryant had the pilot do military maneuvers on the chopper with Pelinka on board, and even turn the engine off in midair.

“My life was flashing before my eyes,” Pelinka told the newspaper. “I almost had a heart attack. Kobe’s just sitting there calm and collected.”
That quote from Pelinka sounds like a media-savvy executive trying to put his guy over as daring, fearless, coldblooded, etc.
 

Eastchop

Member
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Jul 31, 2006
468
I’m also a girl dad, of a budding athlete (softballl).

I share the sentiment re girls are awesome, and I understand why the woman telling this story was moved by her encounter with Kobe.

I don’t doubt that Kobe’s sentiment was sincere. He seemed to live his daughters dearly.

The next rhetorical move would seem to be to say that you can’t square this with his rape history, ie hiw could someone who loves his daughters so much do such a horrible thing to someone else’s daughter.

But I’m not doing that, because it plays into the whole thing of “what if it was your daughter” or “what if you had a daughter” that is thrown at people who aren’t sensitive to the horror of sexual assault, ie Blasey Ford/Kavanaugh. Which I detest because you don’t or shouldn’t need a daughter to have basic human empathy for someone who’s been hurt by another person.

My thing here is to push back on the idea that Kobe is more laudable because he was such a great father *of girls * as if that’s somehow rarer or more difficult or something . You love your kids of whatever gender because you love your kids. I don’t get a medal for loving my daughter so much snd taking her to softball because she’s a girl and that’s more remarkable than if I did the same for a 9 year old boy.
This is an excellent post, and I agree.

I’ve personally received multiple comments that seemed to suggest parenting a daughter is somehow harder or different that I’ve chosen to ignore but never sat well with me (And I have actually had someone say my parenting effort was admirable despite having been “stuck with” girls). I think this is not uncommon and is a worthwhile part of the conversation
 
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barbed wire Bob

crippled by fear
SoSH Member
None that I have seen. The link does provide some insight into Kobe and his pilots fear levels/mindset to where flying in fog wouldn’t seem to be something that would deter them from traveling to their destination. Basically, if you can shut an engine off in midair it is reasonable to believe that they aren’t going to worry about flying in fog or at a high rate of speed (and I have no idea what 185mph is in copter speed).
Most likely the pilot disengaged the rotors from the engines. This is not an unusual event. Pilots do this all the time to practice autorotation. The FAA publishes a guideline on how to do it.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2011/Aug/56414/FAA P-8740-71 Planning Autorotations [hi-res] branded.pdf
https://gizmodo.com/how-helicopters-are-designed-to-land-safely-when-their-1708128868
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Most likely the pilot disengaged the rotors from the engines. This is not an unusual event. Pilots do this all the time to practice autorotation. The FAA publishes a guideline on how to do it.

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/gslac/library/documents/2011/Aug/56414/FAA P-8740-71 Planning Autorotations [hi-res] branded.pdf
https://gizmodo.com/how-helicopters-are-designed-to-land-safely-when-their-1708128868
Thank you and all the aviation people out there educating us on the fly.

See what I did there
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
22,673
We had a discussion about the coverage of Kobe in my newsroom today. My editor, who is someone I would consider a pretty progressive woman, was pretty strongly against talking about his sexual assault case during the day-of/day-after news coverage. Her rationale that it was too soon in the immediate aftermath for that to become the main talking point, and after a few days have gone by it would be more appropriate to then discuss the complicated legacy he leaves behind as a rapist.

In my personal opinion, I can't really fault the ESPN shows or various podcasts that are doing just career memorials to Kobe and barely acknowledging the rape stuff. People who were tuning into ESPN on Sunday afternoon by and large, were not people who viewed Kobe as a rapist; they remembered him and perhaps idolized him as a basketball player and wanted to remember the good times. As a business, you want to cater towards your largest audience and extensive coverage of the rape trial would logically turn some of those people away. Yes, there is some journalistic responsibility to tell the whole story, but I can understand why some organizations are straying away from that during the immediate aftermath of his death.

Another potential issue is that you don't want to trivialize his sexual assault case. You could argue that mentioning that he had a sexual assault trial in between video shots of him throwing alley-oops to Shaq and him scoring 81 points would be more insensitive to the issue that not acknowledging it at all. As if it was just a random anecdote in his career and not a major defining characteristic. I listened to the Simmons/Ryan podcast and it was just two guys talking about Kobe for 30 minutes a few hours after the news broke. They were not prepared to really do a serious, deep conversation about his legacy as an abuser, and I can understand that. It is a very serious, very sensitive topic and it isn't something that you just want to briefly mention for 20 seconds in between a discussion about his basketball career.

If I was running a website, I would have two major stories in my carousel, one being the basic obituary/look back on his career as a basketball player, and another long piece dedicated to the complicated reputation he leaves behind as a rapist, how his life is a case of a powerful person taking advantage of a teenage girl, and how it remains a problem in our society in regards to how he handle both sexual assault and privilege. But that is easy enough to do in print; it is harder to thread that needle on SportsCenter.
 

GoDa

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Sep 25, 2017
962
The allegations against Kobe are certainly a valid topic for discussion. I'd like to think that given the totality of his life and circumstances of his death, those in the media would have the decency to let the bodies get cold and people (family/friends) a chance to mourn (him and his daughter) before going down that road. The reporter in question certainly has her own murky past with #MeToo - so I don't know if her motivations were 100% sincere... part of building her brand... or some mix of those and other factors. Suspension by WaPo probably only drew attention to what would've otherwise not received much.
 

Preacher

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Jun 9, 2006
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Last, right before I was heading to be, my wife sends me a link of Jimmy Fallon's tribute to Kobe. Jimmy was a friend, so he was a bit shooken up by Kobe' and Gigi's deaths.

I made a comment to her about a rapist being dead. She replied back with, "Those charges were dropped".

I was floored and didn't want to engage further, because I was absolutely wiped from the long day I had a work. But, it just further emphasizes that point, people aren't informed, so they can't make informed judgements. Kobe's lawyer did exactly what she was paid for and the general public just kind of went "Meh", nothing to see here, charges were dropped

That's scary to me. My wife isn't an NBA fan, knew of Kobe because you just know the big names in the NBA, even when you aren't a fan
I heard some of the Jimmy Fallon tribute as well. Jimmy Kimmel was also broken up. Even Ellen was crying on her show. I know people here have posted articles detailing the 2003 accusation. I remember when I was at a Sexual Assault Trial Advocacy Course about 10 years ago. One of the instructors read the details from the case and laid out all the evidence collected. The blood on the shirt, the result of the SANE, the physical injuries, etc. She then continued to read the account of what happened to the victim. The release of her name, the death threats, and ultimately her decision to no longer participate in the prosecution of the case after being bullied and intimidated for over a year. It was a very detailed accounting of the case over about 20-30 minutes. Only after going through all of that, she told use the name of the accused. I was astonished because I just didn't remember much from the case in 2003. I'm sure I barely paid attention to it other than what was in the headlines and probably assumed it was some money grab thing or something and of course the charges were dropped. I was one of the people who said "Meh," nothing to see here.

Since then, I've probably reviewed a couple hundred sexual assault complaints. I've participated in dozens of sexual assault trials, both as a prosecutor and a defense attorney. Rarely, have I had a case with as much physical evidence as the Bryant case. In fact, most of my cases have no physical evidence. Many of them are delayed reports given after DNA has been washed away and physical injuries have healed. But we'll prosecute on a credible complaint alone if that's all we have. People should at least read some of the details of the case before deciding they want to deify the man.

Edit: Also, I don't remember who said it in this thread but we will never know the number of victims who decide not to come forward because of what happened in the Bryant case. That was an excellent point. We'll also never know the number of victims who decide not to report because of how the news coverage has been regarding his death.
 

joe dokes

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Jul 18, 2005
30,243
The allegations against Kobe are certainly a valid topic for discussion. I'd like to think that given the totality of his life and circumstances of his death, those in the media would have the decency to let the bodies get cold and people (family/friends) a chance to mourn (him and his daughter) before going down that road. The reporter in question certainly has her own murky past with #MeToo - so I don't know if her motivations were 100% sincere... part of building her brand... or some mix of those and other factors. Suspension by WaPo probably only drew attention to what would've otherwise not received much.
As long as there are hagiographies produced about him in the immediate aftermath of his death, then the criminal charges, civil settlement, and public apology are just as immediately fair game. Otherwise, "it's too soon" will inevtiably morph into "why are you bringing up that old stuff"?
When OJ dies, should they only mention the Heisman, 400 relay record and 2003 yards in 14 games?

It would be insensitive (at best) to go track down someone who is obviously saddened and directly ask, "so what about the rape case?" But that's not what the Post reporter (or anyone else that I'm aware of) has done.

Finally, I dont know what a "murky past with 'me too'" means, and I'm not sure I want to know. I suspect, however, that it undercuts whatever point you were trying to make.
 
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BigJimEd

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Jan 4, 2002
4,432
When is an appropriate time? A couple weeks from now when no one is paying attention?

I don't have a big problem when media members focus on the basketball side abs talking about what a great player he was.

However, when they start discussing the off field that's a different story. Not sure who it was on ESPN earlier but two of them, male and female, were discussing Kobe's legacy and they went out of their way to state how he was an inspiration not just on the court but off as well. They briefly mentioned some off the court "controversies."

Disgusting. It is not inspiring and does not take courage to continue to play basketball after raping someone.
 

jezza1918

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Jul 19, 2005
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South Dartmouth, MA
I heard some of the Jimmy Fallon tribute as well. Jimmy Kimmel was also broken up. Even Ellen was crying on her show. I know people here have posted articles detailing the 2003 accusation. I remember when I was at a Sexual Assault Trial Advocacy Course about 10 years ago. One of the instructors read the details from the case and laid out all the evidence collected. The blood on the shirt, the result of the SANE, the physical injuries, etc. She then continued to read the account of what happened to the victim. The release of her name, the death threats, and ultimately her decision to no longer participate in the prosecution of the case after being bullied and intimidated for over a year. It was a very detailed accounting of the case over about 20-30 minutes. Only after going through all of that, she told use the name of the accused. I was astonished because I just didn't remember much from the case in 2003. I'm sure I barely paid attention to it other than what was in the headlines and probably assumed it was some money grab thing or something and of course the charges were dropped. I was one of the people who said "Meh," nothing to see here.

Since then, I've probably reviewed a couple hundred sexual assault complaints. I've participated in dozens of sexual assault trials, both as a prosecutor and a defense attorney. Rarely, have I had a case with as much physical evidence as the Bryant case. In fact, most of my cases have no physical evidence. Many of them are delayed reports given after DNA has been washed away and physical injuries have healed. But we'll prosecute on a credible complaint alone if that's all we have. People should at least read some of the details of the case before deciding they want to deify the man.

Edit: Also, I don't remember who said it in this thread but we will never know the number of victims who decide not to come forward because of what happened in the Bryant case. That was an excellent point. We'll also never know the number of victims who decide not to report because of how the news coverage has been regarding his death.
I had a long, sobering discussion last night with a young woman who recently graduated college, where she opened up and told me all about her own story...and while I don't feel like relaying any details, she is a rape survivor and one who never reported anything. And while I am well aware of all of the reasons why she should report, given the bolded I am in complete support of her decision. As her former coach and someone who will always be close with her, I wish I could tell her something different, but I can't. That saddens me more than anything.
 
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Cotillion

New Member
Jun 11, 2019
4,926
I am seeing the "Make Kobe the Logo" crop up in more and more places.

So yes. Now is the time to discuss "complexity" of Kobe as soon as you start throwing things around like "role model" "great on court and off court".

And it should be discussed more beyond calling it "complicated" "complex character" and all the other euphemisms that people throw on in front of it to get it out of the way as soon as possible to say "yep, I checked the mention the sexual assault box in my article."

Especially considering the "black mamba" personality was conscious marketing choice of embrace "bad guy on the court" after the sexual assault case. Before he had been playing a more "Michael Jordan" good guy persona (albeit not that well).
 

Gunfighter 09

wants to be caribou ken
Moderator
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Jul 31, 2005
8,548
KPWT
None that I have seen. The link does provide some insight into Kobe and his pilots fear levels/mindset to where flying in fog wouldn’t seem to be something that would deter them from traveling to their destination. Basically, if you can shut an engine off in midair it is reasonable to believe that they aren’t going to worry about flying in fog or at a high rate of speed (and I have no idea what 185mph is in copter speed).
They didn’t shut an engine off in mid air, they pulled a speed control lever back. The equivalent of putting your can in neutral for a second. It gets quiet because the engines are idling, but the pilot maneuvers to ensure the rotational speed on the rotor head stays constant, and that is what keeps you in controlled flight. It is a maneuver that every helicopter pilot practices regularly, because managing Nr (rotational speed of the rotor head) without power from the engines is step one for surviving two of the most common helicopter emergencies - losing power from the engines or losing thrust from the tail rotor.

The reporter in question certainly has her own murky past with #MeToo - so I don't know if her motivations were 100% sincere... part of building her brand... or some mix of those and other factors. Suspension by WaPo probably only drew attention to what would've otherwise not received much.
I don't think it is fair or appropriate to call Sonmez's past "murky" or say that she made her sexual assault allegation to "build her brand." We should always error on the side of believing victims of sexual assault, even if you still believe in and advocate for due process and presumption of innocence for the accused. There is a well reported and detailed article from Reason written by Emily Yoffe if you want to go down that path, but I don't see the relevance here. Sonmez getting suspended for doxing her readers is fair game. Sonmez getting chastised by her boss's boss's boss and really getting suspended for daring to mention and link an article about the sexual assault allegation against Bryant is bullshit and a shameful move by the management of the WaPo.
 
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The Napkin

wise ass al kaprielian
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Jul 13, 2002
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right here
The allegations against Kobe are certainly a valid topic for discussion. I'd like to think that given the totality of his life and circumstances of his death, those in the media would have the decency to let the bodies get cold and people (family/friends) a chance to mourn (him and his daughter) before going down that road. The reporter in question certainly has her own murky past with #MeToo - so I don't know if her motivations were 100% sincere... part of building her brand... or some mix of those and other factors. Suspension by WaPo probably only drew attention to what would've otherwise not received much.
You know who else would probably like to be able to take a couple days off before going down the road of dealing with the Kobe rape? The woman he raped.
 

Marciano490

Urological Expert
SoSH Member
Nov 4, 2007
62,312
We had a discussion about the coverage of Kobe in my newsroom today. My editor, who is someone I would consider a pretty progressive woman, was pretty strongly against talking about his sexual assault case during the day-of/day-after news coverage. Her rationale that it was too soon in the immediate aftermath for that to become the main talking point, and after a few days have gone by it would be more appropriate to then discuss the complicated legacy he leaves behind as a rapist.

In my personal opinion, I can't really fault the ESPN shows or various podcasts that are doing just career memorials to Kobe and barely acknowledging the rape stuff. People who were tuning into ESPN on Sunday afternoon by and large, were not people who viewed Kobe as a rapist; they remembered him and perhaps idolized him as a basketball player and wanted to remember the good times. As a business, you want to cater towards your largest audience and extensive coverage of the rape trial would logically turn some of those people away. Yes, there is some journalistic responsibility to tell the whole story, but I can understand why some organizations are straying away from that during the immediate aftermath of his death.

Another potential issue is that you don't want to trivialize his sexual assault case. You could argue that mentioning that he had a sexual assault trial in between video shots of him throwing alley-oops to Shaq and him scoring 81 points would be more insensitive to the issue that not acknowledging it at all. As if it was just a random anecdote in his career and not a major defining characteristic. I listened to the Simmons/Ryan podcast and it was just two guys talking about Kobe for 30 minutes a few hours after the news broke. They were not prepared to really do a serious, deep conversation about his legacy as an abuser, and I can understand that. It is a very serious, very sensitive topic and it isn't something that you just want to briefly mention for 20 seconds in between a discussion about his basketball career.

If I was running a website, I would have two major stories in my carousel, one being the basic obituary/look back on his career as a basketball player, and another long piece dedicated to the complicated reputation he leaves behind as a rapist, how his life is a case of a powerful person taking advantage of a teenage girl, and how it remains a problem in our society in regards to how he handle both sexual assault and privilege. But that is easy enough to do in print; it is harder to thread that needle on SportsCenter.
He didn’t take advantage of a teenage girl. He raped a teenage girl.

The allegations against Kobe are certainly a valid topic for discussion. I'd like to think that given the totality of his life and circumstances of his death, those in the media would have the decency to let the bodies get cold and people (family/friends) a chance to mourn (him and his daughter) before going down that road. The reporter in question certainly has her own murky past with #MeToo - so I don't know if her motivations were 100% sincere... part of building her brand... or some mix of those and other factors. Suspension by WaPo probably only drew attention to what would've otherwise not received much.
She didn’t have a murky past with #metoo, she was sexually assaulted.

Nobody wants to “build their brand” around be a rape or sexual assault survivor. That’s the same as saying people make these claims for attention. We should put that old lie to bed.

I don’t really understand the “body cooling” thing before it’s appropriate to talk about someone’s bad deeds along with their athletic achievements. Maybe Rev could come along and tie it to Antigone or something.

As I’ve said, I think it’s 100% necessary to have the conversation immediately, because otherwise the message to survivors is they don’t matter.
 

E5 Yaz

Transcends message boarding
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InstaFace

The Ultimate One
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Sep 27, 2016
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Maybe Rev could come along and tie it to Antigone or something.
Friends, SoSHers, basketball fans, lend me your ears;
I come to praise Caesar Kobe, not to bury him.
The evil good that men do lives after them;
The good evil is oft interred with their bones, if they're famous enough;
So let it be with Kobe. The noble Victim
Hath told you Kobe had ambitions on her body:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Kobe answer’d it.
Here, under leave of her and the rest–
For she is an honourable woman;
So are they all, all honourable women–
Come I to speak in Kobe's remembrance.
He was my sporting enemy, a great taker of the Inefficient Mid-ranger:
But the victim says he was rapey;
And she is an honourable woman.
Kobe hath brought many trophies home to Rome The LA Forum
Whose merchandise did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Kobe seem grabby?
When that the poor Laker fans have cried, Kobe hath wept:
Grabbiness should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet the victim says he held her down and choked her;
And she is an honourable woman.
You all did see that on the national broadcast
Phil Jackson thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this control-freakiness?
Yet the victim says he slandered her and incited online mobs to hound her;
And, sure, she is an honourable woman.
I speak not to disprove what she spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love to hate him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish instincts,
And men lose their reason when their sporting heroes are involved. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Kobe,
And I must pause till it come back to me.


---

Online parody's but a walking shadow, a pale imitation
Who struts and frets its time upon the forum thread
and then is heard no more. It is a tale
told by a procrastinator, full of shortcuts and half truths,
Signifying nothing.