Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

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Strike4

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Putting aside the merits of the trade, isn't this what we've all been looking for from Ainge's hoarding of picks and role players? I think of all the outcomes that could have been expected, the bad ones were:

1. Ainge abandons the "plan", blows his load and moves valuable assets for a very good but not great player, without accompanying moves to improve the team or settle cap issues or fill holes;
2. Ainge continues to hoard picks while waiting for the perfect deal and opportunity; that never comes, and the gears are never in synch and windows pass.
3. Ainge gets too cute trying to outfox other teams in trades, and the Celtics end up with a team that fails to reach expectations.

The basic outcome we were all looking for was: Ainge turns picks and role players into certain types of very good/great players while signing other very good/great players. Look at the roster now - he's basically done it. Even if Kyrie underperforms, they have Hayward, Horford, Tatum, Brown and some other good players. Did Ainge pull off a trade for Demarcus Cousins? No. But he didn't do 1, 2 or 3. He overpaid for something that is as near a certainty as the Celtics will probably see for a long time.
 

ehaz

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To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.

This isn't to say Kyrie cannot get better at certain skills because he clearly can still improve physically. However he has also been in the NBA six years. In none of those six years has he ever played what could be called good defense (aside from some small sample sizes in the playoffs and even then he let guys he was guarding get free). He doesn't distribute well and he, by some accounts (of course this could be team LeBron muddying the waters) he isn't a good locker-room guy.

Look, I hope I am wrong and the guy comes to Boston and helps lead them to more banners. However, I have watched enough NBA to know what this guy is - he has amazing handles and can beat anyone off the dribble. However a guy with his skill set who has no interest in playing consistent defense is a huge red flag. I strongly predict that if he pulls his turnstile act here next winter, a lot of people giddy about him now are going to be cursing him. Again, I hope I am wrong...
James Harden had "warts" too and look at what he's done with a shittier team of shooters built around him.
 

Red Averages

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With Irving, do the Celtics have a new "Big 3"? Hayward-Horford-Irving. They may struggle out of the gate, but if they get rolling, look out.
Only if you believe 3 top 3 picks in a row (Brown, Tatum, LAL pick) don't count. This team has a ton of upside, especially on offense. How do you stop a lineup of Kyrie, Brown, Tatum, Hayward, and Horford?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I'm not expecting him to turn into the next Avery Bradley on defense. If he can even make just a modest improvement it changes his value.
I get this line of thinking. My question is this - why hasn't he done so to date? What is Irving waiting for? He's been on a championship contending team for three years now? Is it that he lacked a Brad Stevens in his life?

I love Brad Stevens and think he has worked miracles with some of the players he has had (Evan Turner should be paying for Stevens vacations for the rest of Turner's career) but if the greatest player of this era cannot get Kyrie to play his best on both ends of the court, how is Stevens going to do it?
 

Imbricus

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Ugh. Bad overpay. Can't believe this. No way that Brooklyn pick should be in there. Cleveland had to move Irving, and Ainge played right into their hands. This is like the anti-Butler trade.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I think people actually tend to overrate Thomas's defense.

Having weird feelings about the deal because I like some parts and hate others. Certainly don't hate upgrading IT, as I'm not sure there's really any way to put together a championship team in today's NBA with him playing 40 minutes. So much depends on the Lakers now.
 

ishmael

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Please use statistics to back up your argument. For next season, at least, Cleveland has upgraded assuming Thomas is healthy. If Thomas is not healthy that clearly changes things. But the C's traded a guy who had a +5.4 BPM and 4.8 VORP as well as player with a +1.6 BPM and a 2.1 VORP for a guy who clocks in at +2.5 BPM and 2.9 VORP. In other words, the Celtics traded an older, team-first but more efficient version of Kyrie as well as an above league average three and D wing for a high usage ball-stopper. If the Cavs can get past Golden State (and they have more depth again assuming that Thomas is healthy), I think the calculus changes for James, especially with another young asset aboard - and I think the Cavs will try to pay Thomas if that happens too.

Yes Kyrie has sick handles and yes he CAN play better defense than Thomas. But why hasn't he played consistently better defense? Was he saving it for Brad Stevens? Add the Brooklyn pick and this is a bad bet. Uncle Drew has shown no proclivity to be a team guy and that is while playing on a championship contender.

I want to be clear - IT4 is a flawed player and I get the argument in favor of Kyrie over him even if I don't agree. Crowder is a nice value NBA wing. And Zizic is a question mark as is the Brooklyn pick in terms of what it nets. However together this is a massive - and too concentrated - bet that Kyrie comes to Boston and changes his ways after six NBA seasons where he showed that he is a ball-stopper, a disinterested defender and a guy who couldn't put winning before being the alpha. These are facts. I guess he can still change but I won't be holding my breath.
This sums up my thoughts as well. Crazy that many of us who readily admit that IT4 is flawed, still hate this trade...
 

Jed Zeppelin

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Lebron will trade the Brooklyn pick if he can. Did it once before. He's not staying for a rookie.
 

brandonchristensen

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As a non fan of the NBA, I wish I was more excited or aware of what anything in this thread is talking about.
 

Steve Dillard

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Passive NBA fan, but isn't Irving similar style and ceiling but more proven than Fultz?
If so, comparing where we were on June 1 v now

Conventional v actual
Fultz v Irving
Brooklyn 18 v LAL 18
Nothing v Tatum
 

Clears Cleaver

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Charlie Pierce tweeted about how worried he is about team chemistry being upset. I say the deal as reported is well worth that risk.
LOLOL. only four players from last year's team remain. what chemistry is he talking about? Brown and horford and smart? come on. that is so f'n lazy
 

PedroKsBambino

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It's interesting to think about how the moves come together...

If you don't deal Fultz for Tatum/pick it's tougher to deal that Nets pick.

If you don't get Hayward, you don't trade Bradley for Morris. And when you make that deal, do you know you may flip IT and Crowder for Kyrie? Morris is a lot more valuable now than he looked to be.

Gotta think Ainge at least saw this possibility when they made the Bradley for Morris deal, and possibly the entire sequence this offseason.

Plus, Nate Duncan is going to be beyond shocked the Celtics didn't sign IT to a max extension
 

Kid T

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The people who hate this deal don't hate it because the Celtics gave up too many assets. They hate it because they think Kyrie is not a top 50 player in the NBA (and probably not even a top 10 PG) and we just gave up a top 5 pick in a draft next year that will probably be loaded.

In other words the Nets pick will probably be a better value (benefit/cost) than Kyrie himself. That is a downgrade in quality long term.

If you think Kyrie is a top 25 player then obviously feel free to disagree.
No I think many who hate the trade believe Kyrie is a T25 player in this league. But the difference between him and IT might be Crowder and Zizic (to account for age difference, injury, one less year of control, and to make the trade work under the cap). If Ainge had drawn the line on any high draft pick - lets say he offers 2-3 of the Celtics own first rounders...who would have beaten that? Ainge bid against himself because of his desire to do the deal now, the offer I outlined would have been fair and strong and Ainge should have made Cleveland decide to accept it or move on.
 

nighthob

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If it's unprotected, I really hate this trade. I'm just stunned that Kyrie Irving was the player that Ainge chose to cash his chips in on, especially with the possibility of The Brow being available.
I understand why everyone wants the Unibrower, but given the mechanics of the new CBA there is pretty close to a 0% chance that he goes anywhere before the middle of the next decade.

If Boston had two of the top five picks, and the matching salary (which wouldn't have been easy) they could have gotten New Orleans to listen, but the answer probably would have been the same. No.

Boston was getting stuck with a premium for an in conference deal, but I don't think was too much given the circumstances. I love Crowder, but he's a quality roleplayer. I love Lil' Zeke (and will maintain to my dying day that had Boston drafted him the Pierce/Garnett team would have won a second title), but he's about to turn 29, has an arthritic hip, no ability to play D, and nearing the traditional expiration date for guys that small. I like Zizic, but he's another guy whose value is tied to hustle and effort, and whose upside is strictly NBA-starter level player.

Boston needed a premium asset to make the deal happen, and that was the Nets pick, and I'm OK with that. It clearly took balls of steel betting on the Lakers pick conveying, but if it does this team is a dynasty in the making.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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My hope is that "Playoff" Kyrie knows he has to show up big time this season. It feels like he has a Westbrook like chip on his shoulder. Now that he has his own team - which has been his ask - he has to step up to the plate.
 

allstonite

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The people who hate this deal don't hate it because the Celtics gave up too many assets. They hate it because they think Kyrie is not a top 50 player in the NBA (and probably not even a top 10 PG) and we just gave up a top 5 pick in a draft next year that will probably be loaded
I am a big Kyrie fan after his playoffs so I'm a little biased but not a top 50? That's ridiculous. Those last 2 series were obviously the peak of his career so far but if he can keep something close to that up he's close to top 10 in the league.

I also think D'Angelo Russell might be underrated and was in a bad situation in LA (mostly his own fault) but with a fresh start might make Brooklyn feisty enough to stay out of the top 5, especially since there are a LOT of bad teams tanking. I just browsed the rest of their roster and it's pretty terrible though.

I love IT and he's been a great ambassador for the team but I'm glad the Celtics having to give him a max deal is completely off the table. Him getting north of $30 million when he's 35 could have been awful. It seems like he was more of a throw in to this trade. The Cavs get a comparable player for Kyrie for the one more year they have Lebron to make a run then pick up an extra draft asset for the looming rebuild.

Like Kliq I have a lot of thoughts on this trade but I'm more positive than negative (subject to change next May after the draft lottery)
 

moly99

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To quote others- I think its HRB in this forum but other NBA-heads say this as well - at 25, you are what you are in the NBA.
Just to add to this: on average players reach peak stats in their fourth season in the NBA. Kyrie is who he is.

Or, to use an anecdotal evidence, look at the careers of Melo and Allen Iverson. Did either of those guys transform into team players when they moved?
 

themuddychicken

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Maybe I'm crazy but I like this deal.

With Boston's cap situation they can't sign a star for the next few years, and if the young guys pan out and require extensions then they never would be able to sign another star. That means their only avenue to get anyone is via trade. Even if it is an overpay talent-wise, part of the equation is the ability to acquire someone that the cap is preventing you from signing.

I also am lower on IT than many. I think he has zero value beyond this year, meaning that I think you're better letting him walk than extending a 30 year-old with a bad hip who relies on quickness.

So beyond this next year, to me, it's Jae, Zizic, and the pick for Kyrie. That's really not that bad.

Re-sign Smart after next season and you've got Kyrie, Smart, Tatum/Brown, Gordon, Horford with Tatum/Brown as your 6th man. That's much better than the 2018-2019 Celtics were looking yesterday.
 

moly99

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I am a big Kyrie fan after his playoffs so I'm a little biased but not a top 50? That's ridiculous.
1) From the view of marginal utility, point guard is the least valuable position in the NBA. Or for people who have never studied economics, just think of it in terms of supply and demand. There are a fuck ton of great point guards in the NBA right now, and it is the easiest position to find a replacement star.

2) His statistical production is really mediocre. I will let a Cavs fan give you a rough gist of the issues: http://www.cavstheblog.com/?p=48848
 

Imbricus

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Cleveland GM must be laughing his ass off. I bet there's no way any other offer compared to this. Danny, Danny, Danny. :confused:
 

Rico Guapo

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People are being awfully critical of this deal when no one really knows how ITs hip is going to affect him going forward, or where BK finishes next year (let alone how those pesky ping pong balls fall).
 

Gash Prex

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Come on guys, I love IT - he gave everything he had and bleed green but he was a big defensive liability in the playoffs - so much so the Celtics had design the entire defense to hide him which could be taken advantage of like Cleveland demonstrated. This solves the impending IT hip/fa issue and puts the window for competition more in line with our young stars.

Maybe Ainge paid retail - but if you want the product, sometimes you gotta pay full price. The chances that Brooklyn is #1 is a long shot
 

shawnrbu

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People are being awfully critical of this deal when no one really knows how ITs hip is going to affect him going forward, or where BK finishes next year (let alone how those pesky ping pong balls fall).
Getting really excited about the thought of Kyrie being motivated about being the guy to lead a team over LeBron in the East ending the 7 year streak. Going to be a lot of fun watching Kyrie, Hayward and Tatum the next 4 years.
 

Merkle's Boner

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I thought you guys were just fucking around with this flat earth shit but I'm reading it elsewhere. Please tell me he's goofing on all of us. CHB will have a field day with that.
 

nighthob

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Re-sign Smart after next season and you've got Kyrie, Smart, Tatum/Brown, Gordon, Horford with Tatum/Brown as your 6th man. That's much better than the 2018-2019 Celtics were looking yesterday.
I doubt they wait until after the season to sign Smart, I expect them to extend him this fall when they can keep the price of the extension down.
 

Jed Zeppelin

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I doubt they wait until after the season to sign Smart, I expect them to extend him this fall when they can keep the price of the extension down.
This might be my favorite part of the deal. Smart always had an infinitely better chance of being a part of the next Celtics title winner than Thomas.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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There's an entire thread about what to do about IT and without rehashing the conversation, there only one good solution: trade him. And that's what DA did.

For those who are saying that we should have given up that package to get Butler or George, they are forgetting that neither team wanted IT4. And comparing that to the Butler package - 3 years of Kris Dunn, who many here wanted the Cs to draft, the #7 pick (which could have ben DSmith Jr.), and Levine, well I suspect most teams would have taken that.

And Crowder - while I love him, it's pretty clear that his minutes were going to go down as JB, Tatum, and Morris got their run.

It all depends on BRK pick, which is extremely hard to value. But one thing: BRK is trying to win. Not sure CHI, IND, ATL, etc. are. Russell, Mozgov, Carroll, and Crabbe are all NBA players and it's likely that DA and the rest of this crew think the Nets are going to win 35 games.

If the Nets win 35 games next year, the trade will be a win for the Cs.
 

RoDaddy

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Disappointing trade because of what we gave up but I'm excited by the Irving upgrade to IT. IT was amazing this year but I always saw his game as basically Hawgie hockey, forever limited because of his awful defense, and as a little guy, perhaps more prone to injury. Danny is not quite in the BB we trust category, but he is very good at what he does and deserving of a long look at this trade - as in let's wait a few years before judging. But Irving BETTER not leave after 2 years!!
 

PedroKsBambino

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This is NOT going to help the chances of signing LeBron next offseason, though...
 

quint

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a really good source
So, let's try to unemotionally look at the assets traded:

Crowder: Fine complementary player on a great contract, but how many minutes given the arrivals of Hayward and Tatum would he be getting?
Thomas: Great story, motivational leader ... but coming off a bad hip, and was last season his career peak?
Zizic: Maybe he'll be a solid big man ... but is a big man really an important part of Stevens's game plan?
BKN pick: A completely valuable unknown
This is exactly correct. Especially when one considers the return.

How anyone thinks Ainge got fleeced or whatever, should take a deep and realize how much this improves the Celtics long term and short term.

For a bunch of question marks.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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And as for protections, I'm sure DA tried to do it but the Cavs probably told him no dice. And yes he could have waited but the Cavs are going to the conference finals this year so they just could have kept him.
 
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