Kyrie Irving traded to Celtics for IT, Crowder, Zizic, BKN 1st, 2020 2nd

Status
Not open for further replies.

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
Yes, but every competitive team will have blown their wad by that point and Kyrie can sign for more here. Who's their competition for him? And the 'cant' play defense thing is not set in stone. He balled up in the playoffs as he always does. It may be a bit of 'Rondo on national broadcast syndrome' but let's give the guy a minute to get into the system before we equate him to IT. He at least *can play defense when so inspired. IT didn't have that ability no matter how hard he tried.

It's also a much easier decision to max Kyrie than IT, so much so it's not even worth listing the reasons.
And this is where reasonable people can disagree. I - and perhaps I am alone here but I suspect not - am not so keen on maxing a one way player who is very ball dominant, which is what Kyrie Irving is. I know he looks good defensively when the C's fans have seen him in the playoffs but lets look at numbers. Kyrie Irving's Defensive Rating (from B-Ref) for the past three regular seasons:

108
106
112

The past three playoff years:

104
107
115

I know Defensive Rating has its share of issues but I find it difficult to believe its completely missing a transformation in Irving's defense during the playoffs.

At the end of the day, I hope I am wrong. I would love it if Stevens found a new gear for a guy with this guy's talents. But the mantra of "he is only 25" ignores the fact that in the NBA, that is typically the age of an established talent in the league.
 

DavidTai

Member
SoSH Member
Dec 18, 2003
1,242
Herndon, VA
Having seen two playoffs where Irving got it done and IT4 didn't, as well as their relative ages, Irving is the far, far, better player to max.

And the real key to Irving, frankly, is that he's twenty-FIVE years old, not twenty-nine years old. He's likely to actually play out his max contract and be worth it the whole time, and fit within the period when Tatum and Brown mature and are entering their prime.
 

scottyno

late Bloomer
SoSH Member
Dec 7, 2008
11,308
His playoff defensive stats have to be skewed by the fact that 12/52 games were against arguably the best offensive team in nba history and another 10 were against a very good offensive Toronto team. You'd expect those to be worse than a full season vs roughly average teams if he wasn't stepping it up.
 

benhogan

Granite Truther
SoSH Member
Nov 2, 2007
20,126
Santa Monica
Stevens has worked magic on lesser players like Turner, Crowder, and even Thomas. What's he going to do with legit stars like Hayward and Irving?
100% buyer of this comment

This is the crux of the roster rotation this year. Stevens took this group of veterans: IT, Crowder, Jerebko, Olynek, Zeller, Green, Bradley to the #1 seed in the East in three seasons. They bought low, squeezed every ounce of their talent on the cheap and are selling/moving/letting other teams pay high now. They have imported huge pedigreed talent in 12 months: Brown #3 pick, Tatum #3 pick, Irving #1 pick 4X All Star, Hayward All-Star, Al Horford All-Star, and a couple of solid role players: Morris and Baynes. They kept solid/improving role players like Smart and Rozier. This team is built for the next 5 years.

Danny was clearly concerned that IT wanted that Brinks truck regardless of hip issues/age/defensive shortcomings. Letting him walk for nothing and not being able to use that slot would have been an inefficient use of roster management/salary cap space. IT had to be moved, absolutely loved the guy and will cheer hard for that Brinks truck to show up next year.

Stevens is hands down the best coach, under 60, in the NBA/NCAA today (that should satisfy Pop and Coach K fans). Brad now has the talent on the roster to be playing for the Championship in years 2-5. The East is theirs for the taking for many years. Add in Lakers/Sac pick, Clips pick, Memphis pick and some of the current youngsters and we are on a decade long ride.

Please extend Brad Stevens to a 10yr deal.
 

Clears Cleaver

Lil' Bill
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2001
11,370
A couple takeaways:
Its clear Ainge didn't like Fultz. He had no intention of signing IT, let Bradley walk and had only Smart as viable long term starting option on roster yet still traded down. Pretty lucky that Kyrie became available. I'd love to know what Ainge's plan was. Rozier?!?! The draft where he had two lottery tickets was top heavy with bigs, not ball handlers

I can't wait for the hand wringing when the C's finish the regular season with 50 wins and some bad non-chalant losses. Add the Celtics to the list of teams for which the regular season has zero meaning. And with limited depth now (versus great depth last year), they are going to literally rest guys and give away games. This is 180 degree change from last couple years and might test stevens a bit. The bigger issue is that most Boston fans dislike kyrie already, so when the media narrative pushes down on the nightly effort, it could be a problem. Until the playoffs. Lol
 

soxfan121

JAG
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 22, 2002
23,043
Let's just play out the alternative scenario for a moment, in which the trade never happened and we kept both the Brooklyn and LAL picks. Say furthermore that they are both top 5 picks. And say that the C's decide not to re-sign IT4 because of too high contract demands/uncertainty around his health. Where does that leave us?

Hypothetically, in a best-case scenario we come away with both Porter and Ayton, or Doncic and Bamba, and we have no true starting PG other than Rozier and Smart (who is a RFA in 2018). Suddenly we have a team oozing potential but VERY young and green (no pun intended). You're looking at a lineup that doesn't start to look like anything until 2019/2020 or so:

PF - Porter
SF - Tatum/Hayward
C - Horford/Bamba
SG - Jaylen
PG - free agent signing? Or break the bank for Smart?
Bench - Zizic, Crowder

In a world where Jrue Holiday can command 5/$126M, how confident do you feel about getting a quality PG in free agency to go with this very young lineup? (Of course, the C's will have a similar decision to make with Kyrie when the time comes, but ...)

Now there are other questions to be asked, such as whether Brow will ever become available (doubtful), whether we might have taken a chance on DeMarcus Cousins (I'm sure that trade was available if Danny had thought he'd fit with the C's culture), whether we could have beaten the lame offers that netted Jimmy Butler and PG13, etc. But in a vacuum, I can certainly understand the reasoning behind the Kyrie trade.

EDIT: In retrospect, maybe we should have just made the no-brainer move from the beginning: draft Fultz as IT4 insurance, forget about the Tatum + pick trade since we were gonna sign Hayward to play 3 anyway, keep the Brooklyn 2018 pick and use it on a frontcourt player since those seem to be the best prospects this time around.
So, this alternate scenario exists and we can watch it happen in real time. Because you just described the Sixers to a T. Complete with the need to sign the PG equivalent of JJ Redick so there's someone old enough to buy the beer on road trips.

Ainge obviously values a "winning environment" a lot and has made it a priority to surround his yutes with quality veterans and professionals. The Horford signing looks a lot different to me now than it did last summer; he's clearly here to be a quality player but he's mostly here to be a leader and facilitator, not a scorer and rebounder.
 

OurF'ingCity

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
8,469
New York City
And the real key to Irving, frankly, is that he's twenty-FIVE years old, not twenty-nine years old. He's likely to actually play out his max contract and be worth it the whole time, and fit within the period when Tatum and Brown mature and are entering their prime.
I think this is the key point. People are focusing on waiting until the Brooklyn pick fleshes out to determine whether this trade was "good" or not, but I think the real key future event is whether Kyrie re-signs in Boston. If he does, then you've essentially "won" the trade if Kyrie provides more value over these 2 years + his next contract than the Brooklyn pick would have (yes, obviously Kyrie will be much much more expensive so it's not apples to apples but I think the general point still applies).

If he doesn't re-sign, however, you traded four years of a high draft pick (plus the opportunity to trade the pick either before or after the draft) for only two years of Kyrie, which in my opinion significantly reduces the value of the trade. So the Celtics must think they at least have a very good chance of re-signing Kyrie or they would not have done this deal. (In this respect the Boston media really worries me because I agree with some of the other posters here and in other threads that they are going to be all over Kyrie if he has a few games where it seems like he's lollygagging, if leaks about clubhouse "issues" emerge, etc.)
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,390
100% buyer of this comment

This is the crux of the roster rotation this year. Stevens took this group of veterans: IT, Crowder, Jerebko, Olynek, Zeller, Green, Bradley to the #1 seed in the East in three seasons. They bought low, squeezed every ounce of their talent on the cheap and are selling/moving/letting other teams pay high now. They have imported huge pedigreed talent in 12 months: Brown #3 pick, Tatum #3 pick, Irving #1 pick 4X All Star, Hayward All-Star, Al Horford All-Star, and a couple of solid role players: Morris and Baynes. They kept solid/improving role players like Smart and Rozier. This team is built for the next 5 years.

Danny was clearly concerned that IT wanted that Brinks truck regardless of hip issues/age/defensive shortcomings. Letting him walk for nothing and not being able to use that slot would have been an inefficient use of roster management/salary cap space. IT had to be moved, absolutely loved the guy and will cheer hard for that Brinks truck to show up next year.

Stevens is hands down the best coach, under 60, in the NBA/NCAA today (that should satisfy Pop and Coach K fans). Brad now has the talent on the roster to be playing for the Championship in years 2-5. The East is theirs for the taking for many years. Add in Lakers/Sac pick, Clips pick, Memphis pick and some of the current youngsters and we are on a decade long ride.

Please extend Brad Stevens to a 10yr deal.
Love this post.

Here was the C's roster in Stevens' first year as HC:

Jeff Green
Rajon Rondo (4x all star)
Avery Bradley
Jordan Crawford
Jared Sullinger
Brandon Bass
Gerald Wallace
Kelly Olynyk
Kris Humphries
Courtney Lee
Jerryd Bayless
Keith Bogans

Not surprisingly, that team won 25 games.

They vaulted to the best record in the Eastern Conference, and from that craptastic roster, Ainge/Stevens have turned the roster into:

Kyrie Irving (4x all star)
Al Horford (4x all star)
Gordon Hayward (all star)
Jayson Tatum (#3 pick)
Jaylen Brown (#3 pick)
Marcus Morris
Aron Baynes
Marcus Smart
Terry Rozier
Etc.

This roster is absolutely freaking LOADED compared to that first roster. And they still have the following draft picks:

2018
- Their own 1st rounder
- LA Lakers' 1st rounder, if it falls between 2-5

2019
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 8
- Clippers 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2020
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 6
- Clippers 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2021
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019 or 2020
- Their own 1st rounder
(Note: No clue what happens to the Clippers' pick if they don't use it in 2020...)

Long story short, they still have TONS of ammo to continue to improve the team with really good players.

That said, I think it's possible to absolutely be in awe of how they've upgraded and transformed the team over a four year period, and yet still feel like they gave up too much for Kyrie in this one particular deal.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
Love this post.

Here was the C's roster in Stevens' first year as HC:

Jeff Green
Rajon Rondo (4x all star)
Avery Bradley
Jordan Crawford
Jared Sullinger
Brandon Bass
Gerald Wallace
Kelly Olynyk
Kris Humphries
Courtney Lee
Jerryd Bayless
Keith Bogans

Not surprisingly, that team won 25 games.

They vaulted to the best record in the Eastern Conference, and from that craptastic roster, Ainge/Stevens have turned the roster into:

Kyrie Irving (4x all star)
Al Horford (4x all star)
Gordon Hayward (all star)
Jayson Tatum (#3 pick)
Jaylen Brown (#3 pick)
Marcus Morris
Aron Baynes
Marcus Smart
Terry Rozier
Etc.

This roster is absolutely freaking LOADED compared to that first roster. And they still have the following draft picks:

2018
- Their own 1st rounder
- LA Lakers' 1st rounder, if it falls between 2-5

2019
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 8
- Clippers 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2020
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 6
- Clippers 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2021
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019 or 2020
- Their own 1st rounder
(Note: No clue what happens to the Clippers' pick if they don't use it in 2020...)

Long story short, they still have TONS of ammo to continue to improve the team with really good players.

That said, I think it's possible to absolutely be in awe of how they've upgraded and transformed the team over a four year period, and yet still feel like they gave up too much for Kyrie in this one particular deal.
Fantastic summary, Jones.

Fwiw, I'm in the "in awe of how they've upgraded and transformed the team over a four year period, and yet still feel like they gave up too much for Kyrie in this one particular deal" camp. While I'm not sure they could have swung the deal with one of the lesser picks in place of BKN 2018, I do wonder if they have pulled it off without Crowder, who annoyingly fills the Cavs' biggest roster hole (young, rugged, playable wing defender who can hit threes) and was oh-by-the-way the #5 ranked SF in the league last year by RPM.

I definitely do not think "freeing up minutes for Jaylen, Jayson and Semi" is sufficient justification for giving your #1 conference rival exactly what they need.

Question for CBA experts: setting aside the unknowable question of what lesser haul Koby Altman might have settled for, could the deal have been pulled off salary-wise without Crowder?
 

cheech13

Member
SoSH Member
Jan 5, 2006
1,608
While I understand that the statistics indicate that Kyrie Irving the player might not be as good as Kyrie's reputation and that the acquisition cost was very high, I am somewhat surprised at the range of opinions here, especially on the negative side. He's not Lebron or Davis, but most aren't. But he is a legit superstar talent in his prime . He's been Rookie of the Year, All-NBA, a 4x All-Star, All-Star MVP, FIBA MVP and World Champion all by the age of 25. That's an absurd resume and he has a unique skillset that is going to become increasingly valuable in today's MVP. Those guys don't grow on trees and it's basically the best case scenario for a top pick. Be happy with who he is, not with who you want him to be.
 

DGreenwood

Member
SoSH Member
Feb 2, 2003
2,446
Seattle
This roster is absolutely freaking LOADED compared to that first roster. And they still have the following draft picks:

2018
- Their own 1st rounder
- LA Lakers' 1st rounder, if it falls between 2-5

2019
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 8
- Clippers 1st rounder, if it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2020
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 6
- Clippers 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019, and it falls outside top 14
- Their own 1st rounder

2021
- Memphis' 1st rounder, if they didn't use it in 2019 or 2020
- Their own 1st rounder
(Note: No clue what happens to the Clippers' pick if they don't use it in 2020...)
I think you forgot the Sac pick in 2019 if the Lakers pick doesn't convey in 2018.
 

TheoShmeo

Skrub's sympathy case
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
12,890
Boston, NY
Having seen two playoffs where Irving got it done and IT4 didn't, as well as their relative ages, Irving is the far, far, better player to max.

And the real key to Irving, frankly, is that he's twenty-FIVE years old, not twenty-nine years old. He's likely to actually play out his max contract and be worth it the whole time, and fit within the period when Tatum and Brown mature and are entering their prime.
I think this well summarizes why this was a great deal.

For me, the keys are

- Irving is better and younger than Thomas

- difficulty around signing Thomas

- Thomas' injury situation

- Thomas' balls to the walls style not holding up long term

- Crowder's relatively disappointing playoffs last year

- opening up for playing time for Brown and Tatum

- Celts do still have one potentially high pick

- Nets' pick volatility

- NBA champions usually have at least 2-3 bona fide stars and the Cs have two such players (Hayward and Irving), one player who is close (Horford) and two potential future stars (Brown and Tatum) following this deal. One could argue they already had that with IT but I like Irving more.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,505
While I'm not sure they could have swung the deal with one of the lesser picks in place of BKN 2018, I do wonder if they have pulled it off without Crowder, who annoyingly fills the Cavs' biggest roster hole (young, rugged, playable wing defender who can hit threes) and was oh-by-the-way the #5 ranked SF in the league last year by RPM.

I definitely do not think "freeing up minutes for Jaylen, Jayson and Semi" is sufficient justification for giving your #1 conference rival exactly what they need.

Question for CBA experts: setting aside the unknowable question of what lesser haul Koby Altman might have settled for, could the deal have been pulled off salary-wise without Crowder?
Crowder's minutes were going to be reduced this year so he's surely at his statistical peak for Boston (if he isn't, that means the Cs whiffed on Brown and Tatum and that would be its own problem).

One of the reasons this trade could go through is that IT and Crowder surely has more value to CLE than any other team in the league. I mean CHI wasn't taking that package for Butler and IND wasn't going to take that package for PG (even though IND probably should given Pritchard's mandate to compete).

BTW, in terms of your question, I believe the rule is that the salaries can't be more than $5MM apart. Given KI's salary of $18,868,626, assuming that JB and JT are off the table, then the two next available salaries are Morris ($5MM) and Yabu ($2,247,480) and I am getting that IT, Morris, and Tabu do not work as their combined salaries would be $13,508,875.

I'm sure that if I have the cap rules wrong someone will correct me.
 

BaseballJones

ivanvamp
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
24,390
The Clippers pick converts to a 2022 second-rounder if it doesn't convey by 2020.
Oh man that would totally suck. I don't get how those rules work. The pick could potentially be as good as a 2019 first rounder or as bad as a 2022 second rounder?

Also, great post and sobered me up to how bad the Celtics were when Stevens first joined.
Yeah it was pretty rough. DA and BS have done incredible work here.

I think you forgot the Sac pick in 2019 if the Lakers pick doesn't convey in 2018.
Yep, good pick up.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,852
Oh man that would totally suck. I don't get how those rules work. The pick could potentially be as good as a 2019 first rounder or as bad as a 2022 second rounder?
.
No rules. That's simply what they agreed to.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
I definitely do not think "freeing up minutes for Jaylen, Jayson and Semi" is sufficient justification for giving your #1 conference rival exactly what they need.
1. Jaylen, Jayson, and Semi, particularly the first two, are all critical going forward. Getting them valuable minutes quickly, in good situations, is one of the most important missions for the Celtics as a franchise.

2. Having 2 All-Star level shot creators, plus Horford, means that we won't be seeing any more of Jaylen Brown, Point God, for awhile, which is probably good for his immediate on-court production.

3. Brad, for all his positives, seems to get a bit frustrated with young players making mistakes, and taking away his Crowder-shaped safety blanket is probably a good thing for developing the young guys.

4. Crowder definitely is a great fit for Cleveland, but the Cavs have no real path to getting better next year, even if LeBron stays, and most seem to think he has one foot out the door already. If making CLE better for one season is what you need to get the Cavs to do an in-conference deal, you do it.

5. Related to the above, the Warriors are still head-and-shoulders above everyone. The Celtics and Cavs both have some championship equity in the case of an injury, but realistically, the Celtics' window begins as soon as one of their young players takes a leap, and that probably won't be this year. That makes giving Cleveland one year of fun, while developing the young guys, much more palatable.

6. If IT is cooked, the Cavs will be completely fucked offensively whenever LeBron has to sit, which changes a lot of this analysis. I'm also not convinced that Cleveland will be nearly as good at deploying a healthy IT as Brad was.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
1. Jaylen, Jayson, and Semi, particularly the first two, are all critical going forward. Getting them valuable minutes quickly, in good situations, is one of the most important missions for the Celtics as a franchise.
Hmm, you could be right. As a Warriors fan, I'm thinking 24/7 about maximizing championship odds first and player development second, which is why I totally support the signings of Iguodala, Livingston, Young, and Casspi even if it nominally "blocks" young'uns I'm pretty excited about like McCaw and Bell (McCaw in particular). But I can see how in the case of the Cs it's more about striking a delicate balance between "GFIN" and developing the young'uns.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
Hmm, you could be right. As a Warriors fan, I'm thinking 24/7 about maximizing championship odds first and player development second, which is why I totally support the signings of Iguodala, Livingston, Young, and Casspi even if it nominally "blocks" young'uns I'm pretty excited about like McCaw and Bell (McCaw in particular). But I can see how in the case of the Cs it's more about striking a delicate balance between "GFIN" and developing the young'uns.
Yeah, I'd say the Celtics are in a spot more similar to the Warriors 4-5 years ago, where I'd get frustrated (for example) watching Klay post up all the time, but that was probably more helpful for them long-term than perfectly optimizing his role.

Obviously the Warriors now have to fully maximize immediate championship equity with every move.
 

mauf

Anderson Cooper × Mr. Rogers
Moderator
SoSH Member
It's clear Ainge didn't like Fultz. He had no intention of signing IT, let Bradley walk and had only Smart as viable long term starting option on roster yet still traded down. Pretty lucky that Kyrie became available. I'd love to know what Ainge's plan was. Rozier?!?! The draft where he had two lottery tickets was top heavy with bigs, not ball handlers.
At the time of the pick swap, I thought Danny might be an unusually strong believer in the conventional wisdom that point guards are worth less than wings and bigs in today's NBA. I also thought he might be more bullish on IT than most of us. The Kyrie trade puts both of those notions definitively to rest -- he's bearish on Fultz, and he put his money where his mouth is.

I suspect, however, that believes the aforementioned CW enough that he was willing to live with Smart and/or Rozier at the point indefinitely rather than pass on an opportunity to acquire a young forward (Tatum) who he thinks has a chance to be special, even though the team didn't have a short-term need at that position.
 

DourDoerr

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Oct 15, 2004
2,937
Berkeley, CA
One of the interesting wrinkles to the trade is how will IT perform in a contract year. Particularly if he gets a late start or is feeling some lingering effects from his injury early on. There's a lot of pressure on him to get some numbers to justify his perhaps only shot at a big contract. This may lead him to take some poor percentage shots in order to get the numbers up and I'm curious how that will fit within the Cavs' goals.

As for the C's, I'm very happy - the offseason went pretty much as well as it could have. 25 year-old superstars simply aren't available often and it's exactly why you stockpile assets for when they do go on the market. Would have liked to have kept Zizic, but overall you have to give something to get something. IT's injury concern, his unfixable hole on defense, the glut at forward, and the late season performance of the Nets make the trade very palatable.

A battle-tested, veteran champion PG who's about to enter his prime added to a young roster that will hopefully learn and grow in the next couple of years is just a fantastic alignment of the stars. I love the athleticism and speed on this roster. It's amazing how Ainge in earlier deals had added new vets who might duplicate some of the skill sets that were sent away. Great job Danny.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,505
Pretty sure it's a percentage (within 125%, IIRC?), not a raw number. But I'm not as familiar with the Celtics' specific situation in terms of available salary fodder, trade exceptions, etc.
See #86 here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84. It's 125% for taxpaying teams, $5MM for non-taxpaying teams.

This article states that the Cs are non-taxpayers, so the $5MM would apply. That's Irving for Thomas + Crowder alone wouldn't have worked.

edit: article notes that the Cavs will also receive approximately $40MM of luxury tax relief. All in all, this was nice of Danny.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

Member
SoSH Member
Mar 26, 2005
30,505
The other thing I'm wondering is that DA felt a need to execute the deal now rather than wait and see if he could extract more concessions from CLE. For CLE, they probably aren't in a rush to do anything but having Kyrie for a full training camp with the rest of the teammates could have been a factor in DA saying that waiting isn't going to get him anything more useful.
 

RedOctober3829

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
55,300
deep inside Guido territory
The other thing I'm wondering is that DA felt a need to execute the deal now rather than wait and see if he could extract more concessions from CLE. For CLE, they probably aren't in a rush to do anything but having Kyrie for a full training camp with the rest of the teammates could have been a factor in DA saying that waiting isn't going to get him anything more useful.
He also could have had the sense from around the league that another deal for Kyrie was on the table and he had to trump the offer or risk not getting Irving.
 

lexrageorge

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 31, 2007
18,101
Oh man that would totally suck. I don't get how those rules work. The pick could potentially be as good as a 2019 first rounder or as bad as a 2022 second rounder?
The pick was in return for the C's trading Deyonta Davis and Rade Zagorac to the Grizzlies, who owned the Clippers pick and the associated protections. So really anything this pick turns into is basically house money. FYI, the Clippers originally sent the protected pick to the Grizzlies for one Jeff Green.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,333
I wonder how much the Rondo injury impacted everything that has happened this offseason. The top-seeded Celtics were well on their way to bombing out in embarrassing fashion against freaking Chicago. Feels like they really needed that, I dunno—gravitas?—of making the ECF to be able to pitch an upward trajectory to Hayward and to get Irving excited to be here.

Could have put them in the tough position of just having to run it back, wait out IT's contract and see what happens with the 2018 draft before picking a direction. Given the upcoming squeeze on their cherished flexibility, I'm guessing Ainge feels pretty giddy about what he was able to do.
 

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
See #86 here: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q84. It's 125% for taxpaying teams, $5MM for non-taxpaying teams.
The five million number applies to amounts in the MLE to under max range. Once you hit the max range it's 125% + $100k. The five million works out to more than 25% for amounts in the ≈ $7million-->$19million range that applies. So if you're over the cap but under the tax, the 25% + 100k applies on small trades and once you hit the $19 million (or so) threshold. For example, in this case the outgoing salaries calculated at the 25% +100k rule doesn't reach the necessary threshold for Irving. But thanks to the $5 million rule they reach it with a $200k cushion. But if they were shipping out $22 million then the incoming salaries are capped at $27.5 million.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
Fantastic summary, Jones.

Fwiw, I'm in the "in awe of how they've upgraded and transformed the team over a four year period, and yet still feel like they gave up too much for Kyrie in this one particular deal" camp. While I'm not sure they could have swung the deal with one of the lesser picks in place of BKN 2018, I do wonder if they have pulled it off without Crowder, who annoyingly fills the Cavs' biggest roster hole (young, rugged, playable wing defender who can hit threes) and was oh-by-the-way the #5 ranked SF in the league last year by RPM.

I definitely do not think "freeing up minutes for Jaylen, Jayson and Semi" is sufficient justification for giving your #1 conference rival exactly what they need.

Question for CBA experts: setting aside the unknowable question of what lesser haul Koby Altman might have settled for, could the deal have been pulled off salary-wise without Crowder?
I assume the Cavaliers wanted Crowder in the deal, even if they didn't it would've been tough to pull off without him.

If Crowder was out of the deal, Celtics would've had to include one of Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown or Marcus Smart(after Sept. 7th, Marcus Morris could be added to this list). Then they'd have to add one of Guerschon Yabusele or Terry Rozier. And that would add a 16th guaranteed contract to Cleveland, which they likely wouldn't want.
 

sezwho

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 20, 2005
1,952
Isle of Plum
TLDR: He was 53rd in the NBA and 12th among PG's in RPM last year while playing next to the best facilitator in the history of basketball. And that was a good season for him.

Kyrie is a good player, but he is massively overrated by people looking at his individual scoring ability and ignoring all of his many flaws.
I respect your opinion, and the analytic foundations thereof, but frankly think it's more likely that scheme is what's being measured. Next year will show whether the slide rule is greater than the eyeball, at least in this case.

I do acknowledge the numbers aren't on my side here, which is an uncomfortable position for a financial engineer :(

Lacking a strong foundation in RPM, I'm left broadly asserting that context of Cavs hero ball is Kyrie's real challenge and president Brad will get his best.

I like our 'Big 3' and the supporting cast as well but we're going absolutely nowhere playing 'my turn/your turn' hoops.
 

moly99

Member
SoSH Member
Jun 28, 2007
939
Seattle
In fairness to Kyrie his weaknesses should all be easy to fix. He is already great at creating scoring opportunities and drawing double teams. All he needs to do is get better at picking out open teammates.

The issue is simply motivation. In Cleveland he wanted the ball in his hands but he did not want the responsibility of running the offense. If he is coming to Boston because he wants to re-enact the classic "four guys stand around and watch Kobe play hero ball" style of play then I am going to throw things at my TV. If he buys into running the offense for the Celtics then I won't mind him dominating the ball.

Lacking a strong foundation in RPM, I'm left broadly asserting that context of Cavs hero ball is Kyrie's real challenge and president Brad will get his best.
RPM itself doesn't matter. (I actually made a mistake in listing it, and meant to use BPM.) You can use BPM, win shares, or whatever other evaluation you want.
 

JimBoSox9

will you be my friend?
SoSH Member
Nov 1, 2005
16,667
Mid-surburbia
At the time of the pick swap, I thought Danny might be an unusually strong believer in the conventional wisdom that point guards are worth less than wings and bigs in today's NBA. I also thought he might be more bullish on IT than most of us. The Kyrie trade puts both of those notions definitively to rest -- he's bearish on Fultz, and he put his money where his mouth is.

I suspect, however, that believes the aforementioned CW enough that he was willing to live with Smart and/or Rozier at the point indefinitely rather than pass on an opportunity to acquire a young forward (Tatum) who he thinks has a chance to be special, even though the team didn't have a short-term need at that position.
I've definitely heard Stevens say in the past that he's of the new school that doesn't think in terms of 5 positions so much as 'ballhandler', 'wing', and 'big'. Even though Irving is only 6'3", is it possible that part of the team-building calculus is that they see Kyrie as having the scorer skillset to play a wing role in smaller lineups (with Smart defending the opposing 2?), creating lineup flexibility and favorable matchup options? GH is more than capable of advancing the ball and initiating the offense, with Irving looking for scoring lanes. That seems to be the kind of thing this brain trust likes.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
after Sept. 7th, Marcus Morris could be added to this list
Hmm, I might have tried hard to get them to bite on Marcus Morris, then. He's not that much worse of a player than Crowder, but he is worse, and less familiar with Stevens-ball; and the margin between a good player like Crowder and a meh player like Morris is magnified when you're giving the player to your #1 rival in the conference. (Yeah, Crowder's a bit shorter than Morris, but longer-armed, more rugged, and actually a better rebounder).

I get the sense that once BKN 2018 was in the deal, Koby Altman would have bitten regardless, but who knows.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
(Yeah, Crowder's a bit shorter than Morris, but longer-armed, more rugged, and actually a better rebounder)..
????? Marcus Morris' standing reach is about 8'9; Jae's is 8'4. It's actually one of Jae's biggest negatives, and makes it very hard to credibly play him at the 4.

I know RPM likes Crowder more than MM, but given the team's construction, they may have preferred to keep the latter.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
????? Marcus Morris' standing reach is about 8'9; Jae's is 8'4. It's actually one of Jae's biggest negatives, and makes it very hard to credibly play him at the 4. I know RPM likes Crowder more than MM, but given the team's construction, they may have preferred to keep the latter.
Oops, my bad, I was going by wingspan — DX has Crowder at 6'-9.25" and I was looking at one measurement for Morris that had him at 6'-7", but now I see another (a likely more reliable one) that has him at 6'-10". And yeah, that standing reach difference is significant.

I can see how Crowder is an imperfect positional fit on a team like the Cs that's so deep in wings and relatively shallow in bigs. But I think that may be outweighed by the fact that he's a significantly better player than Morris, a comparable or slightly better rebounder, and the fact that he's a much better fit than Morris on your primary rival.

I'd love to have seen the Cs run out a unit of Irving-Brown-Crowder-Hayward-Horford and make the old, slow, wingless Cavs try and hang with them.
 

Saints Rest

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
In fairness to Kyrie his weaknesses should all be easy to fix. He is already great at creating scoring opportunities and drawing double teams. All he needs to do is get better at picking out open teammates.

The issue is simply motivation. In Cleveland he wanted the ball in his hands but he did not want the responsibility of running the offense. If he is coming to Boston because he wants to re-enact the classic "four guys stand around and watch Kobe play hero ball" style of play then I am going to throw things at my TV. If he buys into running the offense for the Celtics then I won't mind him dominating the ball.
Ainge and Brad should just point out how playing within the system got a guy whose skill set has some similarities to Kyrie's into the top 5 in MVP voting, 3rd team All-NBA, and top 3 in scoring.
 

Eddie Jurak

canderson-lite
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2002
44,480
Melrose, MA
Calling Crowder a "comparable but slightly better rebounder" compared to Morris is significantly underselling him. Morris is an execrable rebounder, while Jae is a good one.
 

Ed Hillel

Wants to be startin somethin
SoSH Member
Dec 12, 2007
43,592
Here
Brown is a really good rebounder, probably will be better than Jae as he gains more weight.

Also, re: Jae vs. Morris, keep in mind Drummond was gobbling up boards and taking opportunities while Johnson and Horford...well, yeah.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
I do think that Kyrie is better defensively in the playoffs, but an underated thing is this... Kyrie doesn't get worse on offense in the playoffs, if anything he's a bit better in the playoffs than the regular season over his 3 years. IT has been significantly worse on offense in the playoffs than regular season each of his 3 years.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
I'd love to have seen the Cs run out a unit of Irving-Brown-Crowder-Hayward-Horford and make the old, slow, wingless Cavs try and hang with them.
Yeah, I think you can make a strong case for Crowder being better to keep than Morris.

The thing is, Morris wasn't available to deal until Sep. 7. After what we just saw happen with the George trade, if you think that a) Kyrie is the guy you want and b) the Cavs are overvaluing the Nets pick, you can't let the delta between Jae and Morris hold the deal up for 2 weeks.
 

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
Yeah, I think you can make a strong case for Crowder being better to keep than Morris.

The thing is, Morris wasn't available to deal until Sep. 7. After what we just saw happen with the George trade, if you think that a) Kyrie is the guy you want and b) the Cavs are overvaluing the Nets pick, you can't let the delta between Jae and Morris hold the deal up for 2 weeks.
And again, it couldn't be just Morris for Jae. Would've had to include either Yabusele or Rozier as well. And have Cleveland be willing to accept a 16th guaranteed contract.

I'd guess Cleveland would've held tight to demanding Crowder as opposed to Morris+. Crowder is a better fit for their roster. Apparently getting an NBA team to wait two weeks is tough anyway. If they could, we might be talking about adding Paul George or Jimmy Butler instead of Kyrie Irving.
 

Cellar-Door

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 1, 2006
34,464
I'm not sure if Kyrie as he is right now can be the best player on a championship team. I lean towards yes, if he had a good 2 and 3 (and the Warriors with 2 top 5 players and 2 more top 40 or so didn't exist). He has one of the hardest things to find that's hard to quantify. He's a guy you can feel 100% confident he can get a bucket for himself in a big situation. He can shoot, he's unbelievable off the dribble in ISO, and he never gets blocked, it's uncanny. If I needed 1 bucket Kyrie would be top 5 in the guys I'd want out there in the NBA (Durant, LeBron.... maybe Curry? who else are you taking over Kyrie?) I think that's underrated as a skill you need.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
And again, it couldn't be just Morris for Jae. Would've had to include either Yabusele or Rozier as well.
Morris ($5M) + Zizic ($1.65M) + IT ($6.26M) gets them to $13.91M, which is within $5M of Kyrie ($18.87M). (Kyrie's contract escalates, though, so if the matching is based AAV, maybe they come up just short).

Edit: d'oh, I can't do addition: $12.91M. So they'd have to kick in another cheap contract, as mcpickl notes. Still think Cleveland wasn't gonna walk away over Crowder v. Morris and extra guaranteed contract, but who knows.
 
Last edited:

mcpickl

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 23, 2007
4,546
Morris ($5M) + Zizic ($1.65M) + IT ($6.26M) gets them to $13.91M, which is within $5M of Kyrie ($18.87M). (Kyrie's contract escalates, though, so if the matching is based AAV, maybe they come up just short).
That's $12.91M
 

HomeRunBaker

bet squelcher
SoSH Member
Jan 15, 2004
30,096
Having seen two playoffs where Irving got it done and IT4 didn't, as well as their relative ages, Irving is the far, far, better player to max.

And the real key to Irving, frankly, is that he's twenty-FIVE years old, not twenty-nine years old. He's likely to actually play out his max contract and be worth it the whole time, and fit within the period when Tatum and Brown mature and are entering their prime.
I don't want to get caught into making this a Kyrie for Isaiah trade as I have layed out my point previously about it being Kyrie for a potentially high lottery pick, a couple players on cost-controlled contracts, and an injured expiring contract. This isn't about one being the superior playoff performer on BOTH ends of the floor over the other (which green tinted optical wearers ignore) but about how Kyrie helps us moving forward over a non-Isaiah Celtics team as he was going to be a limited part of our present and no part of our future anyway......it just so happens that he replaces Isaiah as the same position. One item not discussed much is him being cost-controlled for these next two years while retaining that salary slot that is lost when Isaiah leaves which can now allow for an extension of Smart. Isaiah would have not done this TEAM much of a service continuing to talk about his Brinks Truck that is never coming......which makes it all the more remarkable that Celtics fans are critical of Kyrie's selfishness while ignoring Isaiah's which was about to play up all season long if he is/was able to play.

The two medical people on here and celticsnuts didn't have positive things to say about 5-9 guards playing NBA basketball with torn hip labrum's and the one I spoke to outside of here opined the same. It's like people are discussing Isaiah as if nothing is physically wrong with him and he'll be the same player he has been the previous two years. And those continuing to criticize Kyrie's defense while ignoring that we just upgraded our team defense are also wearing Isaiah-colored blinders. Relax folks, we'll no longer go to sleep in mid-February being awaken by nightmares of DeRozen and LeBron forcing switches to knock down 8-foot turnarounds on our 5-9 helpless guard.


I'd love to have seen the Cs run out a unit of Irving-Brown-Crowder-Hayward-Horford and make the old, slow, wingless Cavs try and hang with them.
I still feel we can see similar lineups with Rozier and Smart capable of playing much bigger than their size. There is a decent chance that Morris is a terrible fit with this team in which case we go with 3 guards and a wing with Horford until Tatum is ready for a steady dose of first unit minutes which likely won't come until at least the following year. I'm expecting to see a good amount of Kyrie-Smart-Rozier lineups.......or even Larkin-Smart-Rozier second units if Jaylen is getting the starting nod at the 2 to keep Smart in his ideal role. This is still a very deep team when healthy but on nights when a guy or two is out you'll see either Theis or Yabusele get some opportunites.

We have now entered the point where these regular season games are all about preparation for the real season to begin. This is when Doc was brilliant when he was here in creating roles for his bench and deep bench guys and I feel Brad is similar in that regard. Guys will get short term opportunities all year to find a role for them once the real season begins. It's all about the springtime now.
 
Last edited:

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

Well-Known Member
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 24, 2002
48,214
True. Instead it will be over the Cs helpless 6-3 guard. Irving is a bad defender period. Let's just accept that fact and if he somehow improves in Boston we can celebrate it.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,852
True. Instead it will be over the Cs helpless 6-3 guard. Irving is a bad defender period. Let's just accept that fact and if he somehow improves in Boston we can celebrate it.
Except this time the Cavs won't switch the 6'3 Irving onto him. We'll be doing it.
 

Sam Ray Not

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 19, 2005
8,849
NYC
True. Instead it will be over the Cs helpless 6-3 guard. Irving is a bad defender period. Let's just accept that fact and if he somehow improves in Boston we can celebrate it.
I think it's interesting how we always value size in big men, but tend to underestimate how much of a defensive boon it is to add 6 inches of height at any position, even when the player being brought in isn't known as a defender.

The Warriors, for example, have consistently pushed to get bigger/longer at every "small" position for years, from the original deed of dumping Monta to clear a starting role for Klay (who was not remotely known as a defender when they drafted him), to dumping Jarrett Jack to sign Iguodala, to signing 6'-7" Livingston as the primary backup PG (when plenty of smaller, flashier guys, including IT, were available), to letting Barnes walk in order to sign Durant (= 8.5 added inches of standing reach, and instant rim protection added to the death lineup). Unsurprisingly, over those years, they went from bad defensively, to mediocre, to pretty good, to tops in the league.

As Jeff Van Gundy put it, "they're big when they're small," which is an underrated part of why their death lineup is so bullet-proof on both ends of the floor. Heck, even Curry has grown an inch or two since his rookie year and is now probably 80th-90th percentile of height for a PG, which makes those pull-up 28 footers that much easier for him to get off than it would for a mighty-mite. Anyone still remember the Cs/Ws game where IT pulled up for a potential game-winner that would have broken the Ws' historic 24-0 streak, only to have it casually blocked at the top by Livingston, who had given him 3-4 feet of airspace? That shot makes for a poetic bookend with to Kyrie's dagger-three in Game 7 that brought the Warriors' historic season crashing down.

And heck, if Bob Myers' length fetish wasn't clear enough, the Ws this offseason cut loose beloved and productive 6'-3" combo guard Ian Clark and replaced him with Swaggy P, whose main (only?) selling point over Clark is that he's 6'-7" with a 7-foot wingspan. And they also added 6'-10" three-point gunner Omri Casspi. They now literally have only two players on the 15-man roster listed at under 6'-7": Curry and Iguodala (6'-6" with a seven-foot wingspan). They were the second tallest team in the NBA last year, and I assume the Clark/Young swap makes them #1.

Or as 6'-5" Charles Barkley put it: "they too small, Ernuh!"

Anyway, on topic: I suspect Ainge — who was part of possibly the biggest starting 5 of all-time with DJ, Bird, McHale and Parish, a team that just steamrolled opponents with their combo of size and skill — has seen the writing on the wall: get bigger at every position, repeat as necessary. IT for Kyrie is a start.
 
Last edited:

nighthob

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 15, 2005
12,680
True. Instead it will be over the Cs helpless 6-3 guard. Irving is a bad defender period. Let's just accept that fact and if he somehow improves in Boston we can celebrate it.
The thing is that no matter what you think of Irving's defense, Boston no longer has to build an entire defensive scheme around unsuccessfully hiding the point guard.
 

Jed Zeppelin

Member
SoSH Member
Aug 23, 2008
51,333
The thing is that no matter what you think of Irving's defense, Boston no longer has to build an entire defensive scheme around unsuccessfully hiding the point guard.
While also being undersized just about everywhere else on the floor. The size overhaul of this roster might be the most underrated aspect of the offseason. Strong defensive games last season (which felt few and far between) too often required superhuman efforts by individual players. Still have some questions about the interior (not so much about size but rather quality) and how various players will be utilized, but I think Ainge and Stevens are thinking they will blow the doors off most teams with offensive efficiency and versatility from every position on the floor while the D develops as Brown improves and maybe a guy like Ojeleye surprises as a versatile wing defender.
 
Last edited:
Status
Not open for further replies.