Kyrie is dirty rotten no good and we have schadenfreude…?

Kliq

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But this isn't so feasible since they gave all their own picks to HOU in the extremely ill-advised Harden deal.
Correct, but presumably you can get somewhat equitable assets back when you trade Durant.
 

benhogan

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HomeRunBaker

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I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.

It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
I don’t know who is actually calling the shots or having influence since Haralabos left but I cannot say in confidence that I trust the Mavs process after they completely botched the Brunson FA. This is a part of why they were so desperate last week….by their own making.
 

JM3

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The fact that the Mavs don't really have a core of guys to go with Dončić 5 years in speaks to a fair # of questionable organizational choices.
 

radsoxfan

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My suggestion for the Nets in the off-season when KD requested the trade was to just trade KD/Kyrie and start over. I don't think they are a title contender, and unless Durant can lure an available superstar to Brooklyn, they aren't going to be one in the future. The whole thing has been a disaster, but the assets you would fetch in a trade for Durant (and apparently, Kyrie) would put the team on a decent starting path to a more sustainable future. Could Durant be moved in the next few days? Wow, that would seem incredible but the Kyrie trade might open the door for that possibility.
As much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).

I suppose Dinwiddie and DFS are decent rotation pieces that could be traded at another point, but a significant part of the value they got was minimizing the on court decline to keep KD engaged.
 

Jimbodandy

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I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.

It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
Dallas front office did a pretty poor job on Jalen Brunson's contract extension

Unloading Porzingis for Dinwiddie/Bertans wasn't great.

Last summer they signed a 34yr old JaVale McGee to a 3yr deal. A bit of a head-scratcher

People have strong opinions on Kidd as an HC.

There seems to be some evidence that the MAVs aren't being optimally run

https://www.mavsmoneyball.com/2022/6/27/23183260/the-mavericks-are-in-a-lose-lose-situation-with-jalen-brunson
Yeah they're pretty poorly run. They deserve a ton of credit for snagging Luka, as he was undervalued in that draft by a bunch obviously. Other than that, it really has been a decade or so of trading a quarter for two dimes. They're like a family pizza place where the old man died and the kids take over and gradually run the thing into the ground a little bit at a time, not from a lack of effort but just from a lack of acumen.

I think that the folks talking about this being a hail mary for Luka aren't very far off. And it will probably bite them in the ass. But Luka and The Jags wasn't going to do anything this year, and the front office is "doing something".
 

PedroKsBambino

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As to Nets, feels to me like they should view this as a 'blow it up' event and....blow it all up. They may or may not get a KD deal done until summer but I'd try. That is tough for them because they don't have their own picks from the Harden deal, and thus would need to replenish through Kyrie/KD deals. But reflecting on it I think that's where they are, or at least should be. That would favor Lakers offer.

I do not get a clear sense that is where THEY think they are, and I would guess they beleive the can pivot to a "frisky and competitive EC team" right away and thus part of this deal was two very solid rotation guys being in it. I don't agree with their assessment, but I get trying that at least for this season's playoff run and then figuring out what's next.
 

Fishy1

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Trading Porzingis and then going out and getting Christian Wood of all guys also baffles me. Fine, you decide Porzingis is a bad fit or not what you wanted. He has his warts, but at least he makes it harder on other teams to score at the rim. Wood doesn't really do that for you. In fact he's a bad defender, as far as I can tell.

Porzingis is an injury risk, but isn't your ceiling higher with him, Luka and Kyrie in a vacuum? (acknowledging that hypothetical might have been impossible, given that Dinwiddie (who is fine, and I imagine Dallas could've sent someone else off) was traded for Porzingis).

Whoever said the Mavericks wanted to "do something" is right - they may even have a terminal case of the do-somethings right now.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Its been made abundantly clear that this board has people who are elite at critiquing front office moves, especially after the fact. These folks have been out there pointing out all the bad decisions for months and deserve their credit.

What I'd like to see - and we likely won't get it - is the actual team/player thinking here. Like has Luka's camp already issued some form of ultimatum? What was their plan absent this transaction? That sort of thing.

From where I sit, building a contender in the NBA is incredibly hard. The nature of roster size, the cap and the premium on elite talent means that one bad decision or simply one that doesn't work (injuries) can sink a season and even destroy a window.

Even if the Dallas front office are the biggest idiots that NBA experts have ever seen, presumably they know that Irving carries a lot of chemistry risk yet they made the deal. I would love to know all of the context around it including whether they think its a 3D chess move or a last resort/"eff-it" type move.
 

Cellar-Door

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I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.

It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
My impression of Dallas is that it's a shitshow. Their front office is a mess, they're constantly mired in sexual harrassment issues, Cuban is involved and a clown, they hired Jason Kidd, they gave overpay extensions to Hardaway and Porzingis because they felt they had to justify that trade, then they salary dumped Porzingis, now they have few picks going forward and one of the least talented 3-15 in the league. They're basically Sacramento being dumb away from having one of the worst teams in the league.
There is zero evidence that they are well run.

Edit- oh yeah, forgot not offerring Brunson an extension, badly mis-judging his market and then doubling down by not trading him.
 

Kliq

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My impression of Dallas is that it's a shitshow. Their front office is a mess, they're constantly mired in sexual harrassment issues, Cuban is involved and a clown, they hired Jason Kidd, they gave overpay extensions to Hardaway and Porzingis because they felt they had to justify that trade, then they salary dumped Porzingis, now they have few picks going forward and one of the least talented 3-15 in the league. They're basically Sacramento being dumb away from having one of the worst teams in the league.
There is zero evidence that they are well run.

Edit- oh yeah, forgot not offerring Brunson an extension, badly mis-judging his market and then doubling down by not trading him.
It really goes back even further to the dismantling of the Dirk title team, particularly with the decision to not resign Tyson Chandler, who was the best defensive player in the NBA, helped neutralize LeBron in the Finals and was a necessary guy to play next to Dirk.
 

JM3

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Its been made abundantly clear that this board has people who are elite at critiquing front office moves, especially after the fact. These folks have been out there pointing out all the bad decisions for months and deserve their credit.

What I'd like to see - and we likely won't get it - is the actual team/player thinking here. Like has Luka's camp already issued some form of ultimatum? What was their plan absent this transaction? That sort of thing.

From where I sit, building a contender in the NBA is incredibly hard. The nature of roster size, the cap and the premium on elite talent means that one bad decision or simply one that doesn't work (injuries) can sink a season and even destroy a window.

Even if the Dallas front office are the biggest idiots that NBA experts have ever seen, presumably they know that Irving carries a lot of chemistry risk yet they made the deal. I would love to know all of the context around it including whether they think its a 3D chess move or a last resort/"eff-it" type move.
If they're being honest I'm sure the explanation is something like...

We are 28-26 this year despite decent health & despite having Luka we're 24th in ppg. We're not doing anything this year & our avenues for acquiring impact talent are limited. We're also, I believe, 0-7 when Luka doesn't play.

Our offense was much better with the Luka/Brunson tandem & Luka/Irving is a rich man's version of that. Kyrie has shown he is an elite off the ball piece & he allows us to have Luka/Kyrie running the offense 48 minutes per game. Luka also cannot cover quick point guards, & Dinwiddie couldn't either, so Kyrie isn't really a defensive downgrade.

DFS is a fine complementary player, but hopefully we can pick up a competent wing from...somewhere or other or just play more Josh Green.

Yes...Kyrie is legit crazy...but he's also really good at basketball. Dinwiddie & DFS have been solid pieces for us & play the 2nd & 3rd most mpg for us, & we'll have to find a way to replace those 68 minutes, but if Kyrie was sane it would be a no-brainer to give up this & more for the chance to add him to Luka. So let's take the discount & hope things work out. Worst case, he'll probably be S&T'able, or movable later. We tend to take on bad contracts & ship them around for other bad contracts. Why not do it again?

& maybe Kidd will be able to get through to Kyrie & everyone will live happily ever after, but yeah...YOLO.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It really goes back even further to the dismantling of the Dirk title team, particularly with the decision to not resign Tyson Chandler, who was the best defensive player in the NBA, helped neutralize LeBron in the Finals and was a necessary guy to play next to Dirk.
That was the Donnie Nelson regime. The current Mavs GM was hired in June of 2021.
 

Auger34

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I don't perceive Dallas as terribly run so presumably they have a decent idea about the risk associated with this transaction.

It would be fascinating to get more legit color on their thinking here because the funky fit plus the cost as well as the drama downside suggests a bit of desperation. But maybe that's not fair.
I don’t know if Dallas is terribly run but I think it’s safe today they aren’t run particularly well (numerous “off-court” issues if you will, their team outside of Luka was pretty bad, and their draft record is heinously bad)

And it suggests more than a bit of desperation. I think the decision makers in Dallas thought they had to go all in on a star for Luka and this was their only reasonable way to acquire one (since Kyrie is nuts and will probably end up causing damage for the franchise like he’s done everywhere he’s been, the price was lower than it would be for any other player if his caliber).

The problem is that I still don’t think they are good enough to compete for a title and now you’re left waiting for the inevitable other shoe to drop
 

Auger34

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& maybe Kidd will be able to get through to Kyrie & everyone will live happily ever after, but yeah...YOLO.
When I first was looking at the trade one of my thoughts was “Maybe Dallas thinks Kyrie will respect Kidd more than your typical head coach since Kidd was a legendary point guard too..that’s not a bad gamble” and then I remembered the Steve Nash experience
 

JM3

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When I first was looking at the trade one of my thoughts was “Maybe Dallas thinks Kyrie will respect Kidd more than your typical head coach since Kidd was a legendary point guard too..that’s not a bad gamble” and then I remembered the Steve Nash experience
Not all legendary point guards are the same person/coach. But yeah, I don't really expect it to work.
 

Smokey Joe

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It's possible that Dallas may already have blown its shot at Luka and this may be the one last attempt to salvage it. I mean does Dallas have a path to getting a player better than KI in the near future?
Yes. But it starts with competent management and intelligent ownership and apparently that has already been discussed in this thread
 

terrynever

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Nets trying to replicate the 2019 Raptors formula. A bunch of long guys that play hard, built around a single superstar. Unfortunately for the Nets, that success is probably dependent on Simmons becoming 2019 Siakam (or even better 2019 Simmons), although perhaps now he will have the ball in his hands a lot more which may help him be more impactful offensively. Will be interesting to see if it works.
Good point about Simmons. This is perhaps his last best chance to demonstrate he can return to form. The recent down time with more knee soreness is concerning.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I think Dallas is worse than they were before the trade. Kyrie is a better player than Dinwiddie, he scores a decent amount more points, although Dinwiddie has been just as efficient as Kyrie scoring the ball this year, is a better defender, much more durable and doesn't come with the self-imploding nature of Kyrie. Then you toss in DFS, probably Dallas' most important non-Luka player and their only really reliable wing defender, plus the potential picks.

Luka needed help with this Dallas team before, but this was a rash, poorly conceived move that will seal their fate when it comes to retaining Luka, unless they can somehow quickly wash their hands of Kyrie and get a considerably better player in his place.
Obviously you are entitled to how you view the trade but I think instead of making a blanket statement that DAL is better or worse, it seems more apt (from an analysis POV) to look at the error bars.

DAL is probably worse but could be better - and frankly could be much better if KI, errr, plays ball. Obviously this is a WAG but my guess is that it is more likely than not that this will implode, which might jeopardize Luka's future with DAL. However, we have no idea, but management might have heard grumbling from Luka already. Which, (again just a WAG) if true, would likely mean that the semi-rational decision is to take a shot with KI.

Yes. But it starts with competent management and intelligent ownership and apparently that has already been discussed in this thread
Obviously, looking in hindsight, it's impossible to argue that DAL management has been successful in team building. And this one is a long shot to succeed, but if it does, well then I guess we'll start hearing about how smart and well-run DAL is.
 

astrozombie

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I don't think the Mavs are the worst-run team in the league, but they do not seem to be run well. Cuban seems to have this idea that he can constantly "reload" rather than rebuild in a way that seems to guarantee that they will be potentially mediocre. They were incredibly fortunate to get Luka. Assuming he was drafted fifth, the prior three players drafted fifth were Fox, Dunn and Hezonja, so not really foundational pieces outside of Fox (and yes, obvious caveats for that's not exactly how the draft would have gone if the Mavs picked fifth in any one of them, I know). In a way, it is admirable that Cuban always wants to field a decent team. Not what I would prefer as a fan, but admirable.
The Kyrie trade is more along those lines. I am sure in his mind he is getting a distressed asset at a discount (the takes on the return are varied) and that is going to push them to the playoffs and once in, they can make some noise. In reality, I don't think that Kyrie makes that team elite (better, but still not beating the top of the West) and the backend is Kyrie doing Kyrie things, which after doing it at 3 stops now I think is safe to say is just the way he is.
 

Cellar-Door

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If they're being honest I'm sure the explanation is something like...

We are 28-26 this year despite decent health & despite having Luka we're 24th in ppg. We're not doing anything this year & our avenues for acquiring impact talent are limited. We're also, I believe, 0-7 when Luka doesn't play.

Our offense was much better with the Luka/Brunson tandem & Luka/Irving is a rich man's version of that. Kyrie has shown he is an elite off the ball piece & he allows us to have Luka/Kyrie running the offense 48 minutes per game. Luka also cannot cover quick point guards, & Dinwiddie couldn't either, so Kyrie isn't really a defensive downgrade.

DFS is a fine complementary player, but hopefully we can pick up a competent wing from...somewhere or other or just play more Josh Green.

Yes...Kyrie is legit crazy...but he's also really good at basketball. Dinwiddie & DFS have been solid pieces for us & play the 2nd & 3rd most mpg for us, & we'll have to find a way to replace those 68 minutes, but if Kyrie was sane it would be a no-brainer to give up this & more for the chance to add him to Luka. So let's take the discount & hope things work out. Worst case, he'll probably be S&T'able, or movable later. We tend to take on bad contracts & ship them around for other bad contracts. Why not do it again?

& maybe Kidd will be able to get through to Kyrie & everyone will live happily ever after, but yeah...YOLO.
I generally agree, but I'd point out, the Mavs offense is really good this year, significantly better than last year tied for 8th best in the league. The PPG thing is pace related.

But overall, yeah the clear idea here is.... "we whiffed on adding an elite talent to Luka, we're low on assets and probably can't compete for a normal elite talent. Even if Dinwiddie and DFS make us a more well rounded team, it's one with a low ceiling and no cap flexibility" so... take a shot at a guy whose price for trade was well below his on-court value, see if it works, if it doesn't, you hope to S&T to recoup a part of the draft capital spent, and you paid a far future 1st to clear cap.


How much more will Luka get from Dallas than a Super Max from another team?
No way to know, he's not a FA until 2026 which will be a new CBA, but honestly the Supermax doesn't matter for his level of player, it matters to the Beal's of the world, but Luka will make it up and then some in endorsement money.
 

the moops

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As much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).
I don't know about this. Lakers were offering two picks and a bunch of trash. DAL offered one unprotected pick, and two good players. BRK could turn around and trade DFS and Dinwiddie for a better haul than the one additional LAL pick, IMO
 

radsoxfan

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I don't know about this. Lakers were offering two picks and a bunch of trash. DAL offered one unprotected pick, and two good players. BRK could turn around and trade DFS and Dinwiddie for a better haul than the one additional LAL pick, IMO
Not all picks are created equal.

Still plenty of uncertainty (and LA will always be a potential FA destination), but unprotected post-Lebron Laker picks have a lot of potential value.
 

InstaFace

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The Mavericks have already accomplished the hardest thing in NBA roster-building: acquiring a young alpha-dog MVP candidate. As 538's research showed, the league's champion teams are overwhelmingly drawn from those who have one of the league's six-or-so best players on it, with appropriate complementary players at a certain level. If there are ~6 "alphas" in the league at any given time, i.e. players who can be the best player on a championship team, then 24 teams lack one. The Mavs don't.

It's a lot easier to get a "beta" (player good enough to be the 2nd-best player on a championship team) than to find another Doncic. Irving might well still qualify. And it's easier still from there to build the rest of a championship roster, as the Lakers 2020 more or less demonstrate, among various others.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The fact that the Mavs don't really have a core of guys to go with Dončić 5 years in speaks to a fair # of questionable organizational choices.
I agree and I will also add that in todays climate it is naive to think that the Mavs have 5-years to appease Doncic. There is a very real chance that something needs to be done this year or next before he asks to be moved.

I’ll say this about Doncic. Everyone loves his talent, however……he’s already clashed with an executive and a GM, neither of whom are any longer with the organization, and the two “second wheels” he’s had in Dallas (Porzingis and Brunson) have played better since leaving…..and in the formers case, played better both before and after his time with Doncic).

I’m not yet being critical of Doncic but there are some red flags creeping up that we should watch moving forward.
 

Cellar-Door

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As much as I love the Tsai spite, if this is the plan, they really should have taken the Lakers deal (assuming the picks were unprotected).

I suppose Dinwiddie and DFS are decent rotation pieces that could be traded at another point, but a significant part of the value they got was minimizing the on court decline to keep KD engaged.
I bet they were not unprotected. But also, if you do that trade you have to trade Durant basically, because you're totally punting this season, and.... Durant and Westbrook isn't something that's going to work. Based on what we've heard from leaks, you'd probably have to pay a pick to re-route him somewhere else. Now the deal is 1 Lakers 1st and some bench trash.... I think the Mavs deal is better.
Honestly.... I think Mavs picks after Luka's deal is up have at least as much upside as Lakers, the Lakers inevitably can sign guys because stars want to live in LA, Dallas if they lose Luka.... not so much.
 

radsoxfan

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Indeed. But a post Luka pick is just as juicy.
Haha no doubt.

But Lebron is 38 and Luka is 23.

Sure Luka could still force his way out but those Laker picks are almost surely post Lebron (or at least post elite Lebron).

But again, if there is some top 3 or top 5 protection that changes things quite a bit.
 

bakahump

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To me this becomes "does this make the Mavs THE favorite for the NBA championship this year".
If the answer is Yes, then The Kyrie Gamble is probably worth it.
If the answer is No, which I happen to believe, then the Kyrie gamble is not worth it.
Throwing a hail mary to Keep Luka is probably a necessity. But doing so by throwing that hail mary to Kyrie is .....not smart.
I think a better case could have been made to get another star even at more cost and hoping THAT star could have enticed Luka to be content.
Even if there WASNT another available star to pair with Luka, a case could be made that "getting Kyrie" may not save the Mavs-Luka relationship anyway and by trying that move your throwing good money (Future picks) after bad (losing Luka anyway).
 

the moops

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But also, if you do that trade you have to trade Durant basically, because you're totally punting this season, and.... Durant and Westbrook isn't something that's going to work. Based on what we've heard from leaks, you'd probably have to pay a pick to re-route him somewhere else. Now the deal is 1 Lakers 1st and some bench trash
But if you are trading Durant as you say, you just keep Westbrook around
 

Cellar-Door

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But if you are trading Durant as you say, you just keep Westbrook around
Yeah, sorry I was unclear. I was saying you have to commit to trading Durant because otherwise you're getting a single 1st and trash from re-routing Westbrook. And I think Tsai still isn't interested in moving Durant likely. His preference is still to show Durant they can win without Kyrie and are committed to him
 

Devizier

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Lakers and Mavericks packages were six of one, half a dozen of another. Both decent packages with their own strengths. The only one that seemed to offer a different twist is the Suns’ but it seems like no one trusts CP3 going forward.
 

NoXInNixon

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As 538's research showed, the league's champion teams are overwhelmingly drawn from those who have one of the league's six-or-so best players on it, with appropriate complementary players at a certain level. If there are ~6 "alphas" in the league at any given time, i.e. players who can be the best player on a championship team, then 24 teams lack one. The Mavs don't.
Sorry for the derail, but I read the article you linked to, and had to share this quote from it, because it will never cease giving me joy:

"If there’s one Celtics move that looks bad in retrospect, it isn’t necessarily trying and failing to acquire Butler or George, it’s trading the No. 1 draft pick for Philadelphia’s No. 3 pick, with which they chose Tatum. While Tatum has a fairly promising projection, he doesn’t have the upside of No. 1 pick Markelle Fultz, whose comparables include players such as Harden, Westbrook and Wall. The trade might have made sense for a team that already had its stars in place and wanted to develop complementary players around them, but the Celtics have plenty of complementary players and are short on stars."
 

InstaFace

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Predictions are hard, especially about the future.

Nate Silver's skills translate decently well to retrospective data analysis, even if it's on a topic that's a bit far from his core competency. But quite a bit less so when his editorializing requires having some basketball scouting skill. Or at least having more than Bryan Colangelo.
 

benhogan

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Sorry for the derail, but I read the article you linked to, and had to share this quote from it, because it will never cease giving me joy:

"If there’s one Celtics move that looks bad in retrospect, it isn’t necessarily trying and failing to acquire Butler or George, it’s trading the No. 1 draft pick for Philadelphia’s No. 3 pick, with which they chose Tatum. While Tatum has a fairly promising projection, he doesn’t have the upside of No. 1 pick Markelle Fultz, whose comparables include players such as Harden, Westbrook and Wall. The trade might have made sense for a team that already had its stars in place and wanted to develop complementary players around them, but the Celtics have plenty of complementary players and are short on stars."
Ha, that's great stuff....Love it

In that same vane, I distinctly remember folks saying the Celtics were headed toward purgatory when Kyrie & Co left town.

Celtics: 2 ECF, a finals appearance & odds-on favorites to win the Championship this season.
Kyrie: one first-round series win 3.5 years later.
 

HomeRunBaker

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Are we really sure Harlabob had any idea what he was doing though?
We aren’t privy to what happened and I’m not taking sides or being critical of Doncic. We should keep these past issues in the back pocket of our minds based on what occurs in the future with Doncic.
 

Cellar-Door

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It could be Toronto but I suspect it’s a much larger exploration to package one of those guys with Durant. If Jaylen sits tonight I’m opening up my Orville Redenbacher!
View: https://twitter.com/TheSteinLine/status/1622710406971097107


Stein with confirmation Toronto is one of the trades they're looking at....

Kyrie out with DFS and Van Vleet in makes BKN a much better team, a real threat in the East.


Edit- to be honest I don't think they have any intent to trade Durant, if they did they would have done a different deal for Kyrie that was more young player/pick heavy, you trade Durant you're taking a step back and not competing for a title, so you don't need vets.
 

HomeRunBaker

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yeah, we know, it's part of what sparked the discussion on twitter, that the Kyrie trade happened, there were rumors various teams were checking in on Durant, SAS said he thought BOS would be one of them, then Jaylen is added to the injury report.
Kyrie deal finalized and Jaylen officially Out tonight so that’s that lol.
 

Reverend

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yeah, we know, it's part of what sparked the discussion on twitter, that the Kyrie trade happened, there were rumors various teams were checking in on Durant, SAS said he thought BOS would be one of them, then Jaylen is added to the injury report.
Oops—I guess I got lost in the sudden 37 odd page or so flurry of this thread! o_O
 

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The league has “never had a better content creator.” :D