Let's talk about this ballclub.
- Thread starter nvalvo
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If you're Charlie Blackmon, it makes you hit .500. Too bad he couldn't have gotten those symptoms.
Pretty much.
Really nothing to get overly fussed-over.
I'm just enjoying getting to see live Baseball for a bit.
Also agree on this, and it's making this board less enjoyable to read.
Actually Ron Roenicke is low on my list of culpability for this pathetic season. He just doesn't have the pitching staff, and there's not a thing he can do about that. Blaming him is like blaming the bartender because the bar ran out of beer.
It's hardly nonsense at all. You think players, knowing full well that ownership has written off the season by gutting the talent on the team, are going to be as motivated and focused to play well as they would be otherwise? I'm one of the biggest proponents of Sabremetrics on the board, but to dismiss the human element in the game is going far to much the other way. It's quite obvious from the way they're playing this year that among their numerous issues is a screaming lack of focus and effort.
No one disagrees with this.
But isn't it far more likely that a global pandemic and 4+ month shutdown, followed by this weird no-fans baseball, probably has a hell of a lot more to do with it than the trading of a teammate that happened 7 months ago?
Yes, I do, because ultimately their performance is what gets them paid, and in the end - that is what they care about. Not the fans, not the city/team, but the money, so I have a very hard time believing since they know the team will suck, they do not care about their performance.
Having seen how the 2012 team ended their season......I have to disagree. That team didn't care one whit.
I guess we'll see if Devers gets his act together. But if they keep getting blasted night after night, the motivation isn't going to be there.
Other teams have dealt with the pandemic and shutdown a tad more positively than this one has. No one doubted that there was a lot of young talent on this team even without Mookie, the problem is that it hasn't shown up this season at all.
I'm struggling with the logic that the league is employing here. If they are going to use multiple year results to determine draft order citing a 60 game season, why not do the same to determine your playoff teams as well? Shouldn't it work both ways?
Maybe on the margins, but they started last year with the exact same record despite management doing the exact reverse of gutting the team - they pretty much brought everyone back. Which if anything suggests this team is playing a bit better relative to expectations, given the talent disparity on this year's team vs. last year's team. Put another way, if you told me before the 2019 season began that the Red Sox would start 6-13 I'd have said "wow, that's terrible, everything must be going wrong for them!" But if you told me before this season that the Red Sox would start 6-13 I'd have said "eh that's maybe a bit worse than I hoped but not particularly surprising."
Plus, even if your theory is completely right, what's the real-world impact on record over 20 games from the motivation/focus concerns you're raising? One more win? Two? Would we really be feeling that much better about this team if they were 8-11 right now as opposed to 6-13?
They haven't said they're going to do that, that's just Callis guessing.
My point is just don't get too into tying the Sox's record to their draft position, because it might not end up that way.
I can't disagree that other teams have dealt better. But to pin it on the Mookie trade seems too simplistic. They're also down EdRo and Sale.
Would people really be happy if they had Mookie, won 25 games this year, and then Mookie left anyway?
No, but I think the problem with the comparison to last year is that with all the talent still on the team you could much more easily figure "Eh, it's just a slump." Having a superstar around makes everyone more comfortable with the idea that they'll snap out of it.
I'll say this though: last year was WEIRD. They never gelled all season. It was so odd.
In baseball, a high draft pick is a total crapshoot. You need years of bad play ala Houston to get multiple high draft picks. Not going to happen in Boston (I hope)
Losing Mookie has to hurt the team chemistry but I also think that losing Cora has a negative effect on the young players like Devers. I would speculate that if Cora was managing the team, Devers would not have shown up fat.
Watching Mookie last night was really depressing. He's not Ellsbury, he's not Andrew McCutchen. He's going to be great for the Dodgers.
I agree with all of this.
Joe Kelley's remarks in the wake of his suspension so a deep dissatisfaction with the Astros in part because Cora became a fall guy, and his players don't think it was fair. I think that speaks highly of the way Cora is viewed in the Red Sox clubhouse.
Yeah that would have been much better I guess. (sharing sarcasm with you here) I mean, let's keep Mookie and Price, stay over the luxury tax, stink this year anyway in a wacky, surreal season (not that anyone could forsee Covid), and then not have the money to not only keep Betts, but rebuild the team itself.
These guys are human, and not automatons, which is why saber metrics, while great, can't tell a manager everything about what to do. One guy is, by the metrics, a good matchup against a pitcher, but what the books don't know is that this player is playing with flu-like symptoms...he's trying, but he's just not got it that day. We don't know it, so we see the numbers matchup, and we say that the manager screwed up. When in reality, he's doing a good job managing giving what he DOES know.
HOWEVER...there's no way that these guys are individually sucking so far because they traded away Mookie Betts. That's a nonsense proposal. If that IS true, then this is the weakest-willed group of athletes ever. And I don't believe that to be the case at all.
I understand the idea that trading Mookie may have signaled to some players that ownership was not trying to compete and perhaps that is affecting their concentration/effort this year (I also agree that may be a stretch and I'd think impossible to quantify). At the same time, aren't there many professional athletes that would actually be more motivated after the Mookie trade in terms of proving doubters wrong and showing that they can win without him? I'm sure it is different for each guy and I'd imagine this is where leadership comes in in terms of how to frame it but I think, on balance, it's tough to blame the Mookie trade in terms of concentration/effort.
Bobby Dalbec is 25, it's time to let him play the rest of this season and find out if he can become a cheap version of Mark Reynolds or not.
Might as well give Jarren Duran a shot too, he's going to be 24 in a few weeks and reportedly looked great in preseason V2.
There's very little to lose by throwing these guys out there, it's not like they are teenagers.
Might as well give Jarren Duran a shot too, he's going to be 24 in a few weeks and reportedly looked great in preseason V2.
There's very little to lose by throwing these guys out there, it's not like they are teenagers.
Agreed as well. The dropoff from a young, player-friendly, stats-friendly manager like Cora to a mediocre retread like Roenicke is substantial. I don't think it really matters this season, and I was okay with them going with Roenicke even before this season started because we all assumed they'd be bad regardless, but I certainly hope they don't retain Roenicke after this year (unless he goes back to being Cora's bench coach, of course).
I don't see any reason why they couldn't or shouldn't just re-sign Cora, but I'd also be okay with Bloom going a different direction based on his own criteria of what makes a great manager so long as that doesn't mean extending Roenicke or hiring some other Dusty Baker/elder statesman type (which wouldn't seem to align with Bloom's supposedly cutting-edge approach anyway).
I’m baffled by the bizarreness of the speculation in this thread. People really think that Cora being gone, or the team trading Betts and Price, are why Devers appears out of shape, lacking in focus, and/or just doesn’t care as much?? Because just competing or, you know, making money aren’t big enough incentives to try? People don’t think, instead, that having our lives completely upended by COVID had a negative impact on and disrupted the routines of some of these guys?
How about JDM? Is he also just depressed about Cora, Mookie, and Price being gone? And so he’s not playing well? It isn’t connected at all, instead, say, to not being able to watch video replays of the current game’s at bats??
How about JDM? Is he also just depressed about Cora, Mookie, and Price being gone? And so he’s not playing well? It isn’t connected at all, instead, say, to not being able to watch video replays of the current game’s at bats??
So you're going to sit Devers for Dalbec in order to see if he can be a borderline starter? Or you're going to sit Chavis, who is a better version of Dalbec (better performance at higher levels of minors, already hitting decently in majors, more positional flexibility, same age), when Chavis is actually performing well? I get wanting to "play the kids". But they're already playing better "kids" in this example.
Dalbec can play first base, third, and DH. Devers can play third and DH (and has been fielding like a DH lately.) Chavis can play second, first or DH. JD can stand in left field, since Benintendi is out.
There is no reason not to play Dalbec and Duran. There's plenty of playing time for them.
There is no reason not to play Dalbec and Duran. There's plenty of playing time for them.
So instead of the better players in Devers and Chavis playing the field and improving their skills there, you would DH them. And then JD plays in the outfield along with Verdugo and JBJ. And I guess all of them DH instead of playing their positions here and there so you can play Duran, a one tool player who stunk at AA last year and hasn't been playing competitively this year to show he's improved. Or maybe you're just going to sit JBJ entirely? None of that makes sense.
Face it, barring injuries or trades you're pretty much stuck with this team. The good prospects are in the deeper minors and aren't going to jump to the majors. Dalbec is blocked by better players and Duran is too far away.
I remember Devers talking about it feeling weird not playing when the season should have started, around April. So the claim he's "disinterested" doesn't hold water to me.
What was reported by beat reporters such as Pete Abe is he looked out of shape, again, and was sent to the alternate training site for a couple days in summer camp. And now he's started really slow. It may be related, it may not be as he might just be a chronic slow starter (hello Big Papi), as pointed out in 2019 he had a bad April then.
Two beat writers last night also suggested Cora might be needed to keep Devers in line:
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1294036158289252364
What was reported by beat reporters such as Pete Abe is he looked out of shape, again, and was sent to the alternate training site for a couple days in summer camp. And now he's started really slow. It may be related, it may not be as he might just be a chronic slow starter (hello Big Papi), as pointed out in 2019 he had a bad April then.
Two beat writers last night also suggested Cora might be needed to keep Devers in line:
View: https://twitter.com/PeteAbe/status/1294036158289252364
The rumor about him going to an alternate site (BC) during camp because he was out of shape was refuted shortly after it came out. They isolated him because of a possible COVID exposure, not for some two day fat camp.
OK. I guess people have been extrapolating everything because he's looked fat. Such is the natural prejudice in this case.
My apologies.
2012 Pitching numbers Games 105-162 (16-42) IP 511.67 H 550 R 333 ER 314 BB 213 Ks 430 HR Allowed 81 ERA 5.52 AVG GAME SCORE 45.05 WPA AVG -.105
Sounds of a defeated manager who has thrown in the towel.
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1294467454845038599
View: https://twitter.com/alexspeier/status/1294467454845038599
Wow I really don't understand where you are coming from at all.
At this point, why would anyone care about getting at-bats for Jackie Bradley? I love him, but his time here is ending very soon. JBJ has 2 weeks left of his Red Sox career before he is dumped at the deadline for whatever they can get for him-- probably very little, but there is no reason to keep him. He's a free agent after this season and we have nothing left to play for.
Moreland is another guy I like, but he is also gone in 2 weeks for whatever they can get. Pillar and Peraza have played a lot so far, but there's no need for them to play much now either. They are mediocre veterans who aren't going to be part of the next good Red Sox team and this season is a complete tire fire with nothing left to play for.
It's time to see what we've got with Duran and Dalbec because of their ages and because this season is a complete disaster. I don't care if you don't like either guy, they are in the pipeline and some observers think they have potential. There is no downside to giving them playing time now.
There is plenty of room for them to play basically every day after Bradley and Moreland are traded in 2 weeks. They can also play most days before the deadline too, with Chavis playing second base and JD playing some LF, and other guys getting occasional days off.
It's not hard, because this team sucks, and there is nothing left to play for.
It's time to see what they can do. Why are you so adamantly against the idea of giving playing time to these rookies over veterans in this dumpster fire of a season? Either the rookies play well and maybe we have something here, or they suck and we know for sure we don't. It's time to find out.
That is what teams do when they are completely out of contention, unless they are stupid.
This is the type of team I'd be throwing out for the 2nd half of the season. There is no reason not to play the kids after the trade deadline.
SP: Eovaldi, Perez, Houck, Mata, Brewer (opener)
RP: Barnes, Taylor, Hernandez, Brice, Hembree, Osich, Stock, Valdez
Lineup: Duran, Verdugo, Bogaerts, Devers, Dalbec, Vazquez, Benintendi or Pillar, Chavis, 9th
Bench: Pillar or Benintendi, Arroyo, Aruaz, Plawecki, Lin, Munoz
(trade: Workman, JBJ, Martinez, Moreland for pitching or draft considerations, if possible)
(dump: Brasier, Walden, Godley, Covey, Springs)
SP: Eovaldi, Perez, Houck, Mata, Brewer (opener)
RP: Barnes, Taylor, Hernandez, Brice, Hembree, Osich, Stock, Valdez
Lineup: Duran, Verdugo, Bogaerts, Devers, Dalbec, Vazquez, Benintendi or Pillar, Chavis, 9th
Bench: Pillar or Benintendi, Arroyo, Aruaz, Plawecki, Lin, Munoz
(trade: Workman, JBJ, Martinez, Moreland for pitching or draft considerations, if possible)
(dump: Brasier, Walden, Godley, Covey, Springs)
Chavis has only played one game this year at 2B for a reason, he's an emergency 2B not a full time guy. His future is at 1B. If Moreland goes, it will be Chavis seeing more time there as they try to figure out what he, the so far same aged yet better version of Dalbec, is going to be.
Again, Duran has never played above AA and didn't hit there. He has one tool so far: speed. He is decently well thought of as a prospect, but being a prospect doesn't make you a major leaguer yet. The minors exist for a reason. He is 23 and is not going to expire like a pumpkin left on the front porch for a month. He will need time to learn to make contact and to actually play CF, which he has little experience doing. He was a 2B in college. And then the upside will be a decent glove speed guy with no power.
I like this approach and I’d enjoy watching the kids. My only change would be to see if there is any trade value to Hembree and Barnes as well. And I would keep JDM.
I disagree. Roenicke can't be blamed for being stuck with primarily minor leaguers and castoffs for pitchers, but he can be held responsible for the constant stream of mental errors, physical errors, and players looking unprepared and uninterested in being on the field. These are the things that are supposed to be worked on in spring training. The Sox' opponents aren't exhibiting similar problems so it can't be just the shortened and split spring training. When I see things like Brasier making a mental error that leads to an important run in a close game, Devers making far too many errors, barely hitting, and looking like he doesn't want to be there, outfielders throwing to the wrong bases, runners getting thrown out on the bases, etc. I think it goes back to the manager.
After Brazier's balk last night I have to agree that I have may have cut Roenicke a little too much slack. In any case I very highly doubt Roenicke will be in charge when pitchers and catchers report to spring training next February.
There’s likely a sense of nothing mattering.
Like if RR says “get your head out of your ass or you’re benched for 5 games” there is probably some apathy there.
Like if RR says “get your head out of your ass or you’re benched for 5 games” there is probably some apathy there.
Guys, RR is not going to be the manager of this team next year. His only job is getting this team through this season without someone dying.
Chavis started 40 games at second base last year, 43 at first. I think he's pretty bad defensively at second (and everywhere else too) but he needs to be a versatile player to get the most out of him.
If he was solely a first baseman, he wouldn't be worth much, with a career OPS+ of 99 in 423 PAs. His versatility makes him much more useful. For the rest of this lost season, he should be moved around the field to get more experience at other positions. There's nothing to be gained from locking him into first base, and that certainly is no reason to keep Dalbec sitting around in Pawtucket, not playing real games.
There's plenty of room to play these guys, look at the lineup amfox1 just posted.
If you don't play these guys now, when in the world would you ever play them? You'd give them playing time next year, when we will presumably be trying to contend (or at least starting a season that isn't ruined yet) and when they have missed an entire season of games?
No you wouldn't, because you've made it clear that you don't think either of them will be anything and you are totally against giving them a chance in a season that is completely lost.
And maybe neither one will ever be any good, but that isn't the point. The point is, we should find out what they can do, since this season is a dumpster fire and they are sitting around playing intrasquad games, despite being at the age when they should be ready to play in the majors.
There's no good reason not to play them now. None.
Normally I'd say keep the kids down in AAA because of the service clock. But this year there is no AAA, and so from that standpoint it's a lost year for their development. I'd rather have them playing real games, unless management feels they'd be so overwhelmed that it would harm their development. I can't speak to that particular point because it's possible that that's the reality.
But Dalbec is already 25. Losing a year of service time for him isn't really that big of a deal at this point. He should be getting real game reps now. Houck is 24. I'd let him come up and see if he can be a starter. If not, use him in the bullpen. Duran is 23 and could use some more seasoning in the minors...IF THERE WAS THE MINORS THIS YEAR! Since there's not, I'd use him in the OF and get him real game reps.
Obviously from an on-field product perspective, this season could not be more of a disaster. They're 6-15 (.286), and they've given up 8, 8, 9, 17, 10, and 11 runs in their past six games (avg of 10.5). Their "number one" starter (Eovaldi) has a 5.93 era and 1.43 whip. Their "closer" (Workman) has a 4.76 era and 2.12 whip. Their "ace reliever" (Barnes) has a 6.75 era and a 1.63 whip. Their stud DH (Martinez) has a .737 ops, 98 ops+, and just 2 homers. Their stud 3b (Devers) has a .578 ops and a 54 ops+. Benintendi has a .442 ops and 27 ops+ and is injured, maybe for the rest of the year.
I'd trade Pillar (who actually is a useful player and wouldn't be bad to keep moving forward, but because of those reasons, he might have trade value) and try to trade JBJ (who I also like) and bring Duran up and hell....maybe even play Rusney Castillo if they need someone to fill in, because they can now afford to pay him and I believe it's the last year of that crazy contract. So run with an OF of Castillo, Duran, and Verdugo. I mean...why not? What's the worst that can happen?
I'd keep Chavis at 2b and let him learn on the job and see if he can improve. Move him to 3b on days when you're sitting Devers. Give Chavis more versatility. Bring up Dalbec to play 1b or 3b. Between Devers (who should rarely sit), Chavis, Peraza, and Dalbec, you've got those three IF spots covered. I also like giving time to Arauz, who, at 21, obviously fits the "play this kid to see what he can do" mold.
Now is the time for these experiments. In a wacky season with no minor league baseball, these kids' development is going to be stunted by not playing real games. Since the team sucks beyond comprehension, now is the time to trade away the guys that aren't part of the Sox' future, and bring up these kids to see what they can do.
But Dalbec is already 25. Losing a year of service time for him isn't really that big of a deal at this point. He should be getting real game reps now. Houck is 24. I'd let him come up and see if he can be a starter. If not, use him in the bullpen. Duran is 23 and could use some more seasoning in the minors...IF THERE WAS THE MINORS THIS YEAR! Since there's not, I'd use him in the OF and get him real game reps.
Obviously from an on-field product perspective, this season could not be more of a disaster. They're 6-15 (.286), and they've given up 8, 8, 9, 17, 10, and 11 runs in their past six games (avg of 10.5). Their "number one" starter (Eovaldi) has a 5.93 era and 1.43 whip. Their "closer" (Workman) has a 4.76 era and 2.12 whip. Their "ace reliever" (Barnes) has a 6.75 era and a 1.63 whip. Their stud DH (Martinez) has a .737 ops, 98 ops+, and just 2 homers. Their stud 3b (Devers) has a .578 ops and a 54 ops+. Benintendi has a .442 ops and 27 ops+ and is injured, maybe for the rest of the year.
I'd trade Pillar (who actually is a useful player and wouldn't be bad to keep moving forward, but because of those reasons, he might have trade value) and try to trade JBJ (who I also like) and bring Duran up and hell....maybe even play Rusney Castillo if they need someone to fill in, because they can now afford to pay him and I believe it's the last year of that crazy contract. So run with an OF of Castillo, Duran, and Verdugo. I mean...why not? What's the worst that can happen?
I'd keep Chavis at 2b and let him learn on the job and see if he can improve. Move him to 3b on days when you're sitting Devers. Give Chavis more versatility. Bring up Dalbec to play 1b or 3b. Between Devers (who should rarely sit), Chavis, Peraza, and Dalbec, you've got those three IF spots covered. I also like giving time to Arauz, who, at 21, obviously fits the "play this kid to see what he can do" mold.
Now is the time for these experiments. In a wacky season with no minor league baseball, these kids' development is going to be stunted by not playing real games. Since the team sucks beyond comprehension, now is the time to trade away the guys that aren't part of the Sox' future, and bring up these kids to see what they can do.
Here is the entire list of Red Sox teams that began the season (22 games if/when the current squad loses tonight) 10 games under .500). In some cases, 10 games under .500 was reached earlier than game 22, noted in parenthesis:
1906 6-16
1927 6-16 (5-15)
1932 4-18 (3-13)
1996 6-16 (3-13)
2020 6-15
The 1966 gang was 7-17 after 24 games, and the 1976 edition was 6-15, with game 21 being the end of a 10 game losing streak. That team then won 8 out of 9.
Historically bad.
1906 6-16
1927 6-16 (5-15)
1932 4-18 (3-13)
1996 6-16 (3-13)
2020 6-15
The 1966 gang was 7-17 after 24 games, and the 1976 edition was 6-15, with game 21 being the end of a 10 game losing streak. That team then won 8 out of 9.
Historically bad.
On JDM, he has an opt-out after the year and almost assuredly will use it, given that both leagues will likely be DH leagues going forward. Therefore, I'd trade him now and get a viable prospect for him.
My wild JDM trade - JDM (Miami native) to the Marlins for Edward Cabrera and a second prospect. MIA could try to make a big trade at the deadline and they have the prospects to do it.
A 32 year old DH declining each of the past three years, with a .737 short sample OPS this year, in a pandemic in which teams may not have fans next year? I was surprised Mookie got close to his pre-Covid market value, but would be more surprised if JD took that risk. I mean, he declined the same opt out last year, and his market is probably much less now.
Beyond that, I agree that trying to trade him fits in with my view of him declining. Let's see what we can get. While it may not match with the Devers position decision (does he move to 1B first?), it certainly would not hurt to free up the DH position.
Edit: on the Devers/DH point, the 2021 FA class seems the most impactive. Arenado, Seager, Lindor, Bryant, Baez are all players on the market then. Lindor would be very pricy and duplicative of X, but I could see the Sox using the money saved in Mookie and JD, and seeing if Seager is unaffordable to the Dodgers who will have the Betts deal limiting them, and Bellinger/Buheler coming up. Seager, Arenado or Bryant at 3B, or Baez at 2B.
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I don't think any other team will take on JD's contract at this point. There is no garauntee that the NL will have the DH permanently, and it's very unlikely that he opts-out of the contract.
