Let's talk about trading Hanley & Pablo

[MakMan44]

Matthew Kory wrote a post over on Fangraphs about what it would like if the Sox traded both players
 
On value to other teams:
 

It’s not hard to see that since the Red Sox signed these players, their value has dropped, possibly substantially. It’s not that Sandoval and Ramirez couldn’t step in and help other clubs right now. Quite possibly they could. They’re but a few months past being desirable free agents. The problem is that they don’t appear like they will come close to providing the value for which they’re being paid. If the Red Sox are going to give these contracts away, making the players essentially like free agents to the acquiring team, that acquiring team isn’t going to want to pay them their current salaries.

 
On whether it's still a good idea:
 

 But considering where Boston is now, that seems presumptive. In other words, it’s not at all clear yet that Sandoval and Ramirez are mistakes. What’s more, the Red Sox don’t have talented enough players at present to replace Sandoval and Ramirez, unless you assume the way they’ve played so far in 2015 is the way they’ll continue to play more or less throughout their contracts. But if Boston has to pay their contracts to make them go away, those are mistakes that are going to linger seasons into the future, no matter when they admit it.

 
Overall, I tend to agree. I think dumping the contracts now, is going to look like a mistake. We're not even a full season in, and though it's frustrating, it's going to take more than a half season to see if the contracts are such a bust that they need to be traded away. Still, I know this idea has gotten traction around here, specifically in the selling thread so I think it's a good idea to start a new topic to break down the idea further. 

 

[moondog80]

I wish the people who want to dump them for a meager return were in my fantasy league.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Aside from Panda's defensive regressions this season (most expected this regression 2-3 years down the road)......what exactly did you expect out of these guys? Each are performing offensively similar to their recent track record.

 

[DJnVa]

So, we sign them for more than other teams valued them for, watch their value drop, and try to trade them after less than half a season.
 
I completely understand the theory of a sunk cost, but I'm not seeing it.

 

[The X Man Cometh]

Disappointing as they've been, it would be selling quite low on a player the Giants (a smart team) were willing to pay 90M for, and Ramirez who has killed the ball.
 
At the end of the day, the reason which would make selling Ramirez or Sandoval urgent is behind the scenes behavior.... something we aren't privy to.

 

[Toe Nash]

If there were a team with an opening at DH and a lot of money to spend, Hanley could be attractive and more useful to that team than the Sox. The main reason his value has dropped is because he hasn't shown much ability to play a position.
 
Maybe the Angels, though they might be saving that spot for Pujols. Otherwise, the Twins could be interested if they are "going for it," but would likely need a subsidy.

 

[ifmanis5]

The Dodgers went for it once... Why not a Punto II, This Time It's Personal deal?

 

[NDame616]

 
Disappointing as they've been, it would be selling quite low on a player the Giants (a smart team) were willing to pay 90M for, and Ramirez who has killed the ball.
 
At the end of the day, the reason which would make selling Ramirez or Sandoval urgent is behind the scenes behavior.... something we aren't privy to.
 

 
How has either been disappointing? Did we (Red Sox fans) have the right expectations of these guys? Hanley is on pace to hit almost the most HRs in a season of his career, and he has his 2nd highest OPS since 2011. Yup, he's terrible in LF. But that's on the Red Sox for thinking he'd just seamlessly move there,
 
And for Sandoval, he had a terrible start to the season and is now working his way back to where he probably "should" be. He isn't a .900 OPS guy. He's a .750ish OPS guy. Same as Hanley, his defense has been bad, but I'm hoping that's just a SSS.
 
Offensively, I don't get the "zomg these two have disappointed!" theme. 

 

[geoduck no quahog]

And who would be the 3B / 1B  or the DH going forward? I assume any trade involves Miguel Cabrera or Josh Donaldson? Playful talks like this need to include the full picture.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Aside from Panda's defensive regressions this season (most expected this regression 2-3 years down the road)......what exactly did you expect out of these guys? Each are performing offensively similar to their recent track record.

 
Regression would imply that Panda has been playing above his head defensively before this season and that this is more in line with his true talent level and I think that's a wholly unsupportable position to take. So I'm assuming you mean decline here?
 

The Dodgers went for it once... Why not a Punto II, This Time It's Personal deal?

 
Is this a serious post? The Dodgers decided not to pursue Hanley with any kind of serious interest this past winter and now they're going to trade for him a half season later? And where would he and Panda play? They are already struggling to get Guerrero and Van Slyke into the lineup every day and you think they want to add two more veterans and another 40 million AAV to their roster?

 

[lexrageorge]

OPS by month (April/May/June):
 
Hanley:  .999/.622/.814.  Remember that he hurt his shoulder in May.
 
Pablo:  .839/.553/.867
 
Neither is really a problem for this team offensively.  They may be overpaid, but unless that's causing the Sox to lose out on other players, it's not that big of a concern.  

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

This has always struck me as a bad idea for several reasons, but one of which that I think hasn't gotten very much play around here does receive a mention in the article:
 

How much is difficult to say, but if we assume it’s some substantial figure for each, that leaves the Red Sox having paid substantial money to sign Ramirez and Sandoval and then, not three months into the first season of their deals, paid substantial money to get rid of them. That makes a bad public statement about the people running the team, and it effectively hangs a large banner outside Fenway Park saying “Free Agents Shouldn’t Bother.”
 

 
Consider also that Sandoval was reported to have received a richer offer from the Giants, and that Ramirez reportedly actively sought out employment with the Red Sox, I agree that this would send a bad message to potential free agents looking to take John Henry's money. I know the perception is that dollars trump everything, and maybe that's true, but I could definitely see this having an impact on the team's perception throughout the league.
 
And at a minimum, they'll most likely be looking to add a good SP, a good RP, and a 1B this offseason. Maybe they can trade for all three of those guys, or maybe they can cross their fingers on the internal options, but at some point, they'll have to go back to the free-agency well again.

 

[soxhop411]

This has always struck me as a bad idea for several reasons, but one of which that I think hasn't gotten very much play around here does receive a mention in the article:
 
 
Consider also that Sandoval was reported to have received a richer offer from the Giants, and that Ramirez reportedly actively sought out employment with the Red Sox, I agree that this would send a bad message to potential free agents looking to take John Henry's money. I know the perception is that dollars trump everything, and maybe that's true, but I could definitely see this having an impact on the team's perception throughout the league.
 
And at a minimum, they'll most likely be looking to add a good SP, a good RP, and a 1B this offseason. Maybe they can trade for all three of those guys, or maybe they can cross their fingers on the internal options, but at some point, they'll have to go back to the free-agency well again.

See MIA. And their last fire sale

 

[smastroyin]

It's a dumb idea that shows the need for even smart people to fill column space during the year.
 
There are many reasons it is a dumb idea, but primarily the reason is that the same issues that were in play when the Red Sox made the signings are still in play.  It's not like they made these signings and then all of a sudden had Kris Bryant and Mike Trout become available to them instead.  The only difference is that they probably aren't going to be competitive this year, but that's not a reason to take a bath after 3 months play on 5 year contracts.

 

[dynomite]

I wish the people who want to dump them for a meager return were in my fantasy league.

Not that this should necessarily dictate anything, clearly, but Sandoval is currently the 35th ranked 3B in Yahoo fantasy baseball, sandwiched between Martin Prado and Daniel Murphy. (Note that this includes all players eligible at 3B, including Miggy Cabrera and Chris Davis types)

If you're high on Panda I would imagine it's not because he's a glitzy fantasy-type guy but a reliable veteran who does everything decently.

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

See MIA. And their last fire sale

 
I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me right now.

 

[Schnerres]

The author already answered the question. There isn´t a great 3rd base option, so keep Sandoval.
Hanley will stay at LF for this and maybe next season and turn into the best DH when David Ortiz retires. What´s not to like about part 2?

 

[soxhop411]

 
I honestly can't tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me right now.

I'm agreeing. High profile FA would be more hesitant to sign with the Sox if there is a chance that the sox would ship them out before they are halfway done with their contract. Example: MIA fire sale after their huge FA splash. Which caused Stanton to be weary of signing an extension with them and causing FA to think twice before signing with them

 

[Yelling At Clouds]

 
 
The Sox trading Crawford, Gonzalez, and Beckett didn't seem to make it harder for them to sign Sandoval, Ramirez, etc...(for better or worse). Money talks.

 
The difference being the respective reputations of the Marlins and Red Sox at the time when the trades went down. If the Red Sox pull off two similar deals in the span of four years, their reputation will take a much bigger hit than it did the first time.

 

[DanoooME]

 
Is this a serious post? The Dodgers decided not to pursue Hanley with any kind of serious interest this past winter and now they're going to trade for him a half season later? And where would he and Panda play? They are already struggling to get Guerrero and Van Slyke into the lineup every day and you think they want to add two more veterans and another 40 million AAV to their roster?

 
Well, of course, the Sox would get Guerrero and Van Slyke back in the deal.  That solves that problem.
 
But seriously, I think the post was totally tongue in cheek,  And Van Slyke is really only a 28 year old platoon guy, so it's not like there's any rush to get him in the lineup.
 
As others have mentioned, it's foolish to think they could find a buyer at any reasonable price, so this is just a mental exercise that's just mental.
 
Let's face it, get used to the duo known as Handaley being in the lineup for years to come.

 

[Al Zarilla]

Hmm, if you told me I could place two guys on my most disliked team at the salaries these two get, they might be a good first guess.

 

[DJnVa]

The Dodgers went for it once... Why not a Punto II, This Time It's Personal deal?

 
Adrian Gonzalez was expensive but performing and had been here nearly 300 games.
 

 

[moondog80]

Not that this should necessarily dictate anything, clearly, but Sandoval is currently the 35th ranked 3B in Yahoo fantasy baseball, sandwiched between Martin Prado and Daniel Murphy. (Note that this includes all players eligible at 3B, including Miggy Cabrera and Chris Davis types)

If you're high on Panda I would imagine it's not because he's a glitzy fantasy-type guy but a reliable veteran who does everything decently.

 
Was more talking about the general "sell low" mentality than actually targeting them in fantasy.  Though I play in an AL-only league, where Pablo still has decent value; I imagine he's waiver fodder in ML leagues.

 

[strek1]

The hate is so palpable that many want to dump these guys for 10¢ on the dollar now?