Levangie saw Machado stealing signs

AB in DC

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As Price was coming set, Machado, leading off from second, would place his hands on his hips. Then, just before each pitch, Machado would begin a series of motions: touching his helmet with either his right or left hand, sometimes then touching or pulling the script on his jersey afterward and other times grabbing or touching the thigh/groin area of his pants.

As the at-bat unfolded, LeVangie remained in the dugout while Price fell behind Hernandez 2-1 and then 3-2 before—following three foul balls—throwing a 93 mph fastball that Hernandez swung through for strike three.

"Was it a little exaggerated? Yeah, maybe, but I saw the whole thing," LeVangie said of Machado's gyrations. "I had told [Boston manager] Alex [Cora] I wanted to go [to the mound] before the Puig at-bat because I wanted to talk about some things.

"But when a guy gets a big punchout in that situation and a coach comes out to take a visit...I didn't want to f--k with the momentum there because David got a huge strikeout."

[...]

From second, Machado gestured again. Puig swung at the first pitch he saw, a 93 mph fastball, knocking an RBI single into center to give the Dodgers their first—and only—lead of the series. It was Machado who scored.
Poor Dana Levangie.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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I am loathe to defend Manny Machado, but isn't that his job? I mean MLB history is littered with players and coaches whose skill was to pick up the other club's signs. I was always told, that figuring out signs shows a high baseball IQ.

Nothing against AB in DC, but aside from the person doing it, why is this a story? Do we not do that anymore?
 

The Gray Eagle

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Need to find a way to use that against them.
This right here is the way to handle it. There's nothing wrong with stealing signs, even if Machado is doing it, but we should be working on a way to use it against them by letting them tell the hitter it's going to be one kind of pitch, then throwing them another. If we do that a couple times, they won't trust the signals from their runners anymore.
 

SumnerH

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I am loathe to defend Manny Machado, but isn't that his job? I mean MLB history is littered with players and coaches whose skill was to pick up the other club's signs. I was always told, that figuring out signs shows a high baseball IQ.
Yeah, stealing signs like this is perfectly fair game, and you're kind of negligent if you don't try to do it*. It's when you get someone sitting in the stands with binoculars signalling in that it becomes extralegal.

*That's never stopped the unwritten rules police from complaining about it, of course.
 

EdRalphRomero

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Yeah, I will criticize Machado for almost everything. I think he should get a 5 game suspension every time he does his dumb smirk in the dugout. But I can't fault him for this.
But could he really decode signs from second? I mean, even in the regular season there is a pretty complicated code with a runner there right? It's not like the catcher is using the old "1 for fastball" with a runner staring in at the signs.
 

findguapo

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I am loathe to defend Manny Machado, but isn't that his job?
Yes, sounds to me like Machado did an excellent job for his team - If Puig knew a fastball was coming, Machado gets a lot of credit. Red Sox should have mixed the signs up immediately if they knew Machado had them.
 

Salem's Lot

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I don’t respect Machado because he does some real bush league stuff around the 2nd base bag that could injure people. That being said, sign stealing is part of the game, and if Levangie knew he was doing it and made the decision to not go to the mound before the Puig at bat, that is on him, not Machado.
 

E5 Yaz

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I am loathe to defend Manny Machado, but isn't that his job? I mean MLB history is littered with players and coaches whose skill was to pick up the other club's signs. I was always told, that figuring out signs shows a high baseball IQ.

Nothing against AB in DC, but aside from the person doing it, why is this a story? Do we not do that anymore?
You're right, it's not a story. The only thing more foolish about it are those who register righteous indignation over it
 

InstaFace

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You're right, it's not a story. The only thing more foolish about it are those who register righteous indignation over it
Of whom we have many examples here already, which include... um.... no one.

But man, if anyone got righteously indignant about it, they'd sure be foolish!

edit: snark aside, it actually IS a story, because it was blatant, LeVangie saw him, didn't do anything (for which he's upset with himself, as the article mentions), and Puig ended up getting a big hit, perhaps partly as a result. Thankfully it wasn't decisive, but the real conclusion here is that they need to do more to counter these tactics.
 

simplyeric

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"Was it a little exaggerated? Yeah, maybe, but I saw the whole thing," LeVangie said of Machado's gyrations. "I had told [Boston manager] Alex [Cora] I wanted to go [to the mound] before the Puig at-bat because I wanted to talk about some things.

Need to find a way to use that against them.

I am loathe to defend Manny Machado, but isn't that his job? I mean MLB history is littered with players and coaches whose skill was to pick up the other club's signs. I was always told, that figuring out signs shows a high baseball IQ.

Nothing against AB in DC, but aside from the person doing it, why is this a story? Do we not do that anymore?

Use Pom as an opener and drill him.

Only kidding (sort of).
 

E5 Yaz

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Of whom we have many examples here already, which include... um.... no one.

But man, if anyone got righteously indignant about it, they'd sure be foolish!
I think people calling for him to be drilled over it would count as being over-the-top reactionary.

As, by the way, does your response
 

In my lifetime

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I agree that this is hardly new, not dirty, nor a story. However, especially considering the impetus to speed up the game, isn't it time to provide the pitcher, catcher and SS with an ear piece to call pitches. Seems like this alone would knock 10-15 minutes off each game.
 
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RIFan

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I agree that this is hardly new, not dirty, nor a story. However, especially considering the impetus to speed up the game, isn't it time to provide the pitcher, catcher an SS with an ear piece to call pitches. Seems like this alone would knock 10-15 minutes off each game.
Unless you want all pitches to be called from the dugout, that's not going to work for obvious reasons.
 

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From that same link:

"Oh, it's clean," the pitching coach said. "It's baseball. If you're not hiding your stuff with a runner on second base and you're giving them a free view, that's on you, the pitcher and the catcher. It's up to the pitcher and catcher to manage that and to us to oversee it and make sure we're going about it the right way.

"We see this all the time. Not just him, with everyone. We are very respectful of all this, and it's a big part of who we are and what we try to manage.
"I've seen worse in a Little League a few years ago," he said. "It was a Little League World Series game I saw on television. It was extremely obvious."
 

joe dokes

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Hopefully they'll have a big lead next time Machado is on 2nd and they can do what needs to be done............




.......throw a wild pitch to move him to 3rd.

I agree. This is nothing.
 

Sox and Rocks

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Hopefully they'll have a big lead next time Machado is on 2nd and they can do what needs to be done............




.......throw a wild pitch to move him to 3rd.

I agree. This is nothing.
Why not throw a wild pickoff attempt instead? You know, the kind that accidentally drills the runner in the rib area?

And do it because he's Machado, not because he's stealing signs. And also use different signs.
 

TheYaz67

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"I've seen worse in a Little League a few years ago," he said. "It was a Little League World Series game I saw on television. It was extremely obvious."

Little League actually reacted to this event in 2017 by changing their rules to make relaying information to batters (so type of pitch and/or location of catcher/pitch) illegal under the rubric of it being "unsportsmanlike conduct". The penalty is runner is out, and the player and manager may be ejected from the game....
 

joe dokes

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Why not throw a wild pickoff attempt instead? You know, the kind that accidentally drills the runner in the rib area?

And do it because he's Machado, not because he's stealing signs. And also use different signs.
Duh, if you drill him, he's still on second unless the pitcher can guarantee a solid ricochet.
 

DourDoerr

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Saw the thread title and thought MM was using binoculars or something. This? Nothingdagwoodsandwich.
 

Noseminer

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Machados' name inspires rage in most people. That's why this is getting any attention at all. It shouldn't. Don't want to see a TD celebration? Keep them out of the endzone. Don't want to see a bat flip on a HR? Don't throw a meatball that gets crushed. Don't want to see a pitcher pump his fist after a big K? Don't K in a big spot. Don't want 2nd base runners to steal signs? Make sure they don't reach 2nd base. If they do, change the signs as often as you must. It's really not that hard.
 

NickEsasky

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I agree that this is hardly new, not dirty, nor a story. However, especially considering the impetus to speed up the game, isn't it time to provide the pitcher, catcher and SS with an ear piece to call pitches. Seems like this alone would knock 10-15 minutes off each game.
Unless this earpiece provides the catcher with telepathy, how does having this communication device keep the batter from knowing what's coming given that he is in earshot of the catcher.
 

ElcaballitoMVP

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Need to find a way to use that against them.
Hey Dana, get off your butt and go have them change their signs. 1 means 2, 2 means 3, 3 means 4, 4 means 1. Throw down a 4, Machado relays changeup, and the pitcher brings the heat. Have fun hitting a heater when you're expecting a changeup.
 

TheoShmeo

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As pointed out by many, Machado did what he was supposed to do.

But he's a menace who plays baseball without regard to the health of the opposition, he took out Pedroia for 1.5 seasons and he has a stupid face. Any excuse to fart in his general direction is good with me.

And I agree that the angle that Levangie saw this and let it go is what makes the story interesting. I also take heart in the fact that it happened during a win, and I doubt that the Sox are going to let that punk ass piece of lint do that to them again. Which is good.
 

chrisfont9

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Machados' name inspires rage in most people. That's why this is getting any attention at all. It shouldn't. Don't want to see a TD celebration? Keep them out of the endzone. Don't want to see a bat flip on a HR? Don't throw a meatball that gets crushed. Don't want to see a pitcher pump his fist after a big K? Don't K in a big spot. Don't want 2nd base runners to steal signs? Make sure they don't reach 2nd base. If they do, change the signs as often as you must. It's really not that hard.
Exactly. Tomorrow someone will report that Elizabeth Warren told the Sox that Baez was tipping his fastball, and they'll win the news cycle.
 

mauidano

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So much time to fill in during a a Championship Series. Some editor actually ran with this story. Whew.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Does anyone know how catcher signs work? Do they use an indicator like batter/runner signs?
Sure they do, particularly if there's a runner on second. Sometimes it's not just fingers to denote numbers, the catcher is tapping his shoulders and knees and chest like a 3rd base coach.

The thing that plays a role in why Lavangie didn't go out to the mound is the mound visit limit. I would expect that as a result of that rule, teams have contingency plans for changing signs that don't necessarily require a mound visit. Like there's a plan A, B, and C for sign/indicator and the coach or the catcher can change them just by calling out a code word known by the pitcher, catcher, and SS/2B. If teams don't have such a thing in place, they soon will.
 

findguapo

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Does anyone know how catcher signs work? Do they use an indicator like batter/runner signs?
In college, with a runner on 2nd, the signs frequently corresponded with the # of outs + a number. If we were doing plus 2, and their was 1 out, then the 3rd sign would be the pitch call. That was a pretty basic one, there were a lot of other variations as well, such as knee/chest touches, etc.
 

KiltedFool

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Usually when you've got a guy on second you have an indicator, so the signal right after the indicator is the real signal. For example Major League there's a line "first sign indicator" which means when Taylor gives signals, the first signal is the indicator and when he gives that signal again the sign right after it is the real one. Lot of different ways to mix it up, I used to have a signal to have my pitcher shake me off to mess with batters. But most of these codes are pretty easy to break if you see enough repetitions, that's why you shuffle them.

You can do stuff with "it's the third signal unless I tap my chest first then it's the second" all kinds of things.

With limited mound visits you may have to set up a sequence of what your signals shift to.
 

InstaFace

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I think people calling for him to be drilled over it would count as being over-the-top reactionary.

As, by the way, does your response
Wait, who's "people"? The one guy who said "kidding!" as a second line in his post? I don't see a single person being indignant over it, nevermind righteously so. Meanwhile, we're at post 44 and everybody on the thread clearly agrees that this is legit conduct by Machado and it's on the Sox to mitigate it. Like, dozens of people. I don't know why you imagine that windmill to be an abomination, but tilting at it in this venue is really a waste of everyone's time.

For a guy who dishes out scornful mockery to posters like a cafeteria lunchlady dishing our green bean casserole, you sure have a thin skin when it comes to having your own ridiculous posts pointed out.
 

Kevin Youkulele

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Unless this earpiece provides the catcher with telepathy, how does having this communication device keep the batter from knowing what's coming given that he is in earshot of the catcher.
I kind of assumed that going to earpieces would have to involve either calls from the dugout or the pitcher putting his glove over his mouth and say something--which would be a big departure from the way things are usually done, meaning that this is not very likely to actually happen.
 

charlieoscar

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Easy solution...go back to the 1876 rules.

The batsman, on taking his position, must call for a 'high,' 'low,' or 'fair' pitch, and the umpire shall notify the pitcher to deliver the ball as required; such a call cannot be changed after the first pitch is delivered.


  • High - pitches over the plate between the batter's waist and shoulders

    Low - pitches over the plate between the batter's waist and at least one foot from the ground.

Baseball Almanac
 

Doug Beerabelli

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Why not have the SS stand in front of the runner on 2b, making it hard for the runner to pick up the signs. Once the sign has been given, give time for SS to get back into desired position, and then throw the pitch! Maybe even do jumping jacks or wave the glove in front of runner's face (being sure not to obstruct the runner, of course).
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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I kind of assumed that going to earpieces would have to involve either calls from the dugout or the pitcher putting his glove over his mouth and say something--which would be a big departure from the way things are usually done, meaning that this is not very likely to actually happen.
Why not a remote in the catcher's glove or something that he can operate by hand to send an audible signal to a pitcher's earpiece? One beep fastball, two beeps curve, three beeps changeup, etc.
 

djbayko

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Yeah, stealing signs like this is perfectly fair game, and you're kind of negligent if you don't try to do it*. It's when you get someone sitting in the stands with binoculars signalling in that it becomes extralegal.

*That's never stopped the unwritten rules police from complaining about it, of course.
Do the unwritten rules police really complain about this? Stealing signs has been part of the game forever. I might be wrong, but I associate unwritten rules with attempting to maintain some sort of tradition.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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The wrong side of the bridge....
And I agree that the angle that Levangie saw this and let it go is what makes the story interesting.
What makes it interesting for me is that it highlights the many decisions coaches and managers have to make in the course of a game where there's no right answer. Levangie had a valid point about not disturbing a pitcher who's on a roll. And in the end, it worked out. Maybe if he goes out there to have them change signs, Price's focus is shaken, LA has a big inning, and we're looking at a 1-1 series now. OTOH, if he goes out there maybe Puig doesn't get the hit and Price pitches just as well. We often talk as if the right decision should be obvious, but a lot of the time, it's anything but.