Minamino is having a nice run in the domestic cups. A brace against Norwich, and it's on to the quarters. The draw is tomorrow.
Liverpool 2021/2022 Jurgen’s Comeback Tour
- Thread starter Mighty Joe Young
- Start date
The big team were kept apart.
Crystal Palace vs. Everton or Boreham Wood
Nottingham Forest or Huddersfield Town vs. Liverpool
Middlesbrough vs. Chelsea
Southampton vs. Manchester City
Interesting article about how hard Salah gets fucked by officials in England: https://paultomkins.substack.com/p/incredible-mo-salah-stats-that-suggest?utm_source=twitter&s=r
Data don’t lie… Salah is such a statistical outlier in fouls that he falls off the graph. It’s worth both getting angry for Mo and also shaking your head at the English bias.
Data don’t lie… Salah is such a statistical outlier in fouls that he falls off the graph. It’s worth both getting angry for Mo and also shaking your head at the English bias.
Just looking at the data, Salah is very low on fouls drawn per 90 but he is also an extreme outlier in terms of fouls committed per 90. He has only 9 fouls in 24 90s this year. Compared to the 115 PL players who have themselves been fouled more times than Salah's 20, he has the lowest fouls committed per 90. Son is very close but nobody else is even in the ballpark. If anything, he is a bigger outlier in terms of fouls committed than fouls against.
I'm not saying there isn't some refereeing bias involved but at least part of it seems to be his playing style, probably going into fewer 50/50 challenges than most guys, which would explain being very low on both fouls committed and fouls against. Other stats seem to back this up. For example, he has only won 4 tackles all year which is a ridiculously low number.
I also don't see much evidence of English bias. There are tons of non-English players getting lots of fouls called against them.
I'm not saying there isn't some refereeing bias involved but at least part of it seems to be his playing style, probably going into fewer 50/50 challenges than most guys, which would explain being very low on both fouls committed and fouls against. Other stats seem to back this up. For example, he has only won 4 tackles all year which is a ridiculously low number.
I also don't see much evidence of English bias. There are tons of non-English players getting lots of fouls called against them.
Its Forrest … this should be fun. they’ve already beaten Arsenal, Huddersfield Town and Leicester City. I have always loved the fact they have more European Cups than ManU
United have 3, Forest have 2 (now tied with Chelsea for 3rd among English sides), But that's still 2 more than City, Spurs, and Arsenal combined.
From 1977-84, England won 7 European Cups in 8 years (Liverpool 4, Forest 2, Villa 1). A great trivia question is which non-English side won in that stretch.
Hamburger SV, in 1983
My mistake … I thought their only one was from the Treble Year.
(and I have mentally erased the 2007/08 team from all recollection)
We’ve seen home streaks hang like a weight on these guys in the past. Ending one in a completely inconsequential manner seems like the way to do it.
So what are our thoughts on this - presumably temporary - experiment of deploying Mane through the middle With Diaz on the left?
Jota has looked off the pace since he got hurt and Firmino would seem to be 3rd choice right now. Going forward (assuming health) is this going to be a rotation, or mix and match (or as the English say “horses for courses”)
One of the traditional jobs of the CF is holdup play … and I’m not sure any of the possibilities are particularly good at that (maybe Origi).
Personally I like Mane there .. but I don’t think he has settled yet.
Jota has looked off the pace since he got hurt and Firmino would seem to be 3rd choice right now. Going forward (assuming health) is this going to be a rotation, or mix and match (or as the English say “horses for courses”)
One of the traditional jobs of the CF is holdup play … and I’m not sure any of the possibilities are particularly good at that (maybe Origi).
Personally I like Mane there .. but I don’t think he has settled yet.
I don't think Mane has the touch for it. He's at his best when he's running. His passing isn't particularly accurate, his finishing is either spectacular or dreadful, and he's not physical. I don't see how this works long term.
I'd rather see them try Salah through the middle with Diaz on the left and trying Mane back on the right. When Jota is in for Mane, Salah goes back out right with Jota through the middle.
Salah isn't Le Cut Inside Man, but it's his post powerful tool. He's so left footed I think he'd be dramatically less effective. He tries bad left-footed passes and shots rather than risking his right whenever possible. It's probably his biggest overall weakness. Moving him central would expose it.
Maybe I'm still traumatized from the spanking he delivered in the league cup semifinal but it seems to me that the answer is to play Jota back into form. The guy is a menace.
Brighton is a pain in the ass, and then there's Arsenal midweek. I'm expecting a fair bit of rotation and that Jota will start through the middle flanked by Diaz & Mo.
It's been a while, but Klopp occasionally deployed a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1 when injuries made the preferred setup untenable. I don't think they're at that point, but if Klopp does get really frustrated with the front 3, either of these formations could be trained up quickly.
In my memory, the few times they rolled out the 4-2-3-1 with Bobby at the 10 behind Salah...that was a lot of fun.
It's been a while, but Klopp occasionally deployed a 4-4-2 or a 4-2-3-1 when injuries made the preferred setup untenable. I don't think they're at that point, but if Klopp does get really frustrated with the front 3, either of these formations could be trained up quickly.
In my memory, the few times they rolled out the 4-2-3-1 with Bobby at the 10 behind Salah...that was a lot of fun.
According to Diaz’s scouting report he has played quite a bit of left AM. While fun I don’t see Klopp abandoning midfield control for the extra attacking option. That was the old Coutinho model.
This is concerning:
Konate missed Inter. VVD and Thiago did not practice yesterday.
https://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/brighton-v-liverpool-team-news
Konate missed Inter. VVD and Thiago did not practice yesterday.
Ominous rumblings out of the Salah camp today with his agent claiming Salah will not sign the latest offer but still wants to stay. In his presser today Klopp kind of echoed the stalemate nature of the negotiations.
View: https://twitter.com/brfootball/status/1502347838583451649/photo/1
I think the biggest factor is basically where else is he going to get what he wants? Real are looking to sign Mbappe and possibly Haaland as well. If not then Haaland goes to (gulp) City. Barca has been blustering about signing Haaland as well but no one thinks they have the cash to do it.
And then you have Harry Kane as well cluttering up summer transfer destinations.
So PSG maybe? Would Salah really want to play in the French league? Or back to Serie A ?
View: https://twitter.com/brfootball/status/1502347838583451649/photo/1
I think the biggest factor is basically where else is he going to get what he wants? Real are looking to sign Mbappe and possibly Haaland as well. If not then Haaland goes to (gulp) City. Barca has been blustering about signing Haaland as well but no one thinks they have the cash to do it.
And then you have Harry Kane as well cluttering up summer transfer destinations.
So PSG maybe? Would Salah really want to play in the French league? Or back to Serie A ?
PSG seems like the only truly plausible destination, assuming they are dumb enough to pay a bundle for a third stupendously talented forward in his 30s who won’t do much running.
But in the end I think Liverpool and Salah will find a way to split the difference and agree on a new contract. If Klopp may only be there two more years, surely he wants to maximize his odds of winning big trophies during that time.
But in the end I think Liverpool and Salah will find a way to split the difference and agree on a new contract. If Klopp may only be there two more years, surely he wants to maximize his odds of winning big trophies during that time.
I think they’re nuts for fighting with Salah but will eventually come to their senses. Wouldn’t Salah make a ton of sense at Madrid though? They could go straight 442 with Mbappe Benzema Vinicius and Salah
The thing is FSG is kind of skating on thin ice with the fan base already. The outrage over the super league fiasco has diminished slightly but selling Salah would ratchet it up to the rafters. And a replacement would cost more so what’s the point?
Yes, I agree completely. FSG have basically one job and it’s to pay Salah who along with Klopp was the catalyst for that turnaround. Liverpool fanbase would try to talk themselves into a Salah sale but it would be incredibly risky for FSG and it all seems nonsensical to me. They’re treating it like baseball with its luxury tax threshold. Clubs have to worry about their pay structure in football but Salah is a class of player where paying him can’t trigger having every new signing or resigning player use his contract as a benchmark. You play nice with him and get that deal done because you really can’t win that deal
The counter point is that they seem to have hit on Jota and Diaz at lower prices than they would get for Salah. Not that I want that to happen but I’m sure there are some at FSG that think they could pull it off like they did with the Coutinho money. It’s a super dangerous proposition to think you’ll get it right every time.
Totally agree on the PR hit though.
Even that comparison is kind of sobering though. Jota has been a successful transfer by any standard and is a really good player having a very good season with 13 npg+a so far. And at the same age Salah had 42 npg+a. Salah really is different gravy, as the English like to say.
Since we don’t know what he’s asking for it’s hard to judge whether LFC is being unreasonable. But, if he’s asking to be the highest paid player in the a Premier League then they should pay him because he’s the best player in the Premier League and should remain at the top of his game for at least a couple of more seasons.
And, more to the point, replacing him with a similarly gifted player is going to cost a lot more that the salary raise Salah will get. Sure Mbappe and Haaland are a lot younger ... But their salary demands will dwarf anything Salah gets.
So I guess Plan B would involve selling him for £100m plus and bring in Bellingham and a Dias clone.
And, more to the point, replacing him with a similarly gifted player is going to cost a lot more that the salary raise Salah will get. Sure Mbappe and Haaland are a lot younger ... But their salary demands will dwarf anything Salah gets.
So I guess Plan B would involve selling him for £100m plus and bring in Bellingham and a Dias clone.
The guy is playing like he could have used the time off. He looks exhausted and his feet are heavy.
How is that possible?? Has the shine already wore off the EPL title from 2 seasons ago? I mean, if they take it down again this season (not great odds, but very much still innit) then does that get FSG back into good graces? Seems too fickle, even with respect to Scousers
Scheming up the Super League on the heels of furloughing club staff used up the rest of their goodwill for many, myself included. I cancelled my club membership after a decade and won't financially support an FSG-led ownership group.
Having said that, there are immeasurably worse ownership groups the club could have (and has) had; "less morally reprehensible", "more business-savvy", and "astute in empowering talent evaluators" are about the best things I can muster for almost any group of wealthy individuals. It remains to be seen if FSG are serious about having better engagement with supporter-led groups before making colossal blunders like with the Super League - personally, I think it's a matter of months before they have egg on their face yet again, and it could well be with any fallout from the Salah situation.
Having said that, there are immeasurably worse ownership groups the club could have (and has) had; "less morally reprehensible", "more business-savvy", and "astute in empowering talent evaluators" are about the best things I can muster for almost any group of wealthy individuals. It remains to be seen if FSG are serious about having better engagement with supporter-led groups before making colossal blunders like with the Super League - personally, I think it's a matter of months before they have egg on their face yet again, and it could well be with any fallout from the Salah situation.
Has there been any reliable reporting on what Salah is actually asking for? It seems like a situation where the years might be more important than the wages.
Nothing concrete .. it’s been reported the current offer on the table would make him the highest paid in the team. Rumours persist that he’s asking for a league high wage. Which is kind of stupid given some of the ridiculous contracts in the league. Why should LFC shell out because petro fueled teams lavished stupid money on the likes of John Stones , Jack Grealish etc.
On the flip side, why would Salah see those contracts think he isn't worth even more as a proven, dominant commodity? Both sides could have justifiable points that make a breakup inevitable. Liverpool might be able to shell it out for a player of Salah's character but the nature of the business means the new precedent is set. Paying through the nose for Salah might really hurt their ability to economically sign talent moving forward.
Klopp won't be at Anfield forever. That clock's ticking is getting a little louder. What is Klopp's coaching and system worth in terms of getting more out of players? Will Liverpool need to expand the wage bill further for the same level of success under a lesser coach? I'd guess yes.
The situation sucks but I can't see a scenario where Salah's economics are going to work. He has a right to demand what he's worth. The club has a right not to reset their wage structure. I don't think this is going to work out.
Does my reverse lock work outside of game threads?
Here’s the Sportrac ranking of EPL salaries. ManU with 5 of the top 10 in the league. WOOF!
Ronaldo leases the way by a fair margin, and while Salah is certainly better now, Ronaldo is being paid for his brand as much as his on-pitch production. Unless he’s playing Spurs, natch.
But paying Salah as much as KDB? That seems hard for FSG to argue against, especially given some of those other names in the top 10.
Ronaldo leases the way by a fair margin, and while Salah is certainly better now, Ronaldo is being paid for his brand as much as his on-pitch production. Unless he’s playing Spurs, natch.
But paying Salah as much as KDB? That seems hard for FSG to argue against, especially given some of those other names in the top 10.
Information on contracts is notoriously unreliable but as best I can tell somewhere between 300-400k per week is just the going rate for top PL attackers. KDB, Sancho, Grealish, Lukaku, maybe Kai Havertz depending on what info you believe, Auba was in this area too before leaving Arsenal.
I can see why Liverpool might not want to go outside that band or perhaps try not to land at the very top of the band (ie, 400k per week) but it doesn't seem outlandish on Salah's part.
I would be more concerned about the years to be honest. Three years from this summer seems appropriate, you get his age 30-32 seasons and there's good reason to believe at least two of those will be very high level. Anything beyond that seems kind of dicey. The track record of PL forwards aged 32 and beyond is really ugly.
Pretty wild that United handed out three of the top five biggest salaries just last summer. And then got worse.
Yeah - if he wants KDB money then FSG should pay him. But there’s a whole bunch of contracts on that list which are completely nonsensical. Some are arguable the price of doing business (Sancho, Lukaku for example) - but a lot are just clubs paying stupid money for past accomplishments - see Cavanni, Edson
And I agree it’s the years that should be the biggest concern.
And - whatever happened to Saul Niguez ? He signed with Chelsea but I don’t think he has played for them?
He’s played, just not particularly well, so not as frequently as they probably intended. He started at wingback against Norwich last week, had a goal in their FA Cup match against Luton recently. He’s on a loan with an option to buy, which I’m guessing they won’t exercise.
Klopp is really something else: https://www.reddit.com/r/LiverpoolFC/comments/teznmo/did_you_care_really_when_roman_abramovich_came_to/
His comments here feel a little brave, quite honest, and long overdue.
His comments here feel a little brave, quite honest, and long overdue.
Kudos to him and he is exactly right to turn that question on the media and British society in general. No sizeable country has done more to encourage the world's kleptocrats and autocrats to park their wealth within its borders, happily looking the other way while lapping up the trickle down benefits, and Roman is just a symptom of that disease.
Game on, you City bitches.
the remaining schedule is not easy. Of course, the key to it all is @City on April 10. But of the last 9, there’s 6 top-half sides, the Merseyaide derby, and a spicy Newcastle squad.
Running the table with the FA Cup and UCL at the same time would be an incredible achievement. Klopp has this squad playing incredible stuff at the moment. It’s going to be exciting.
the remaining schedule is not easy. Of course, the key to it all is @City on April 10. But of the last 9, there’s 6 top-half sides, the Merseyaide derby, and a spicy Newcastle squad.
Running the table with the FA Cup and UCL at the same time would be an incredible achievement. Klopp has this squad playing incredible stuff at the moment. It’s going to be exciting.
After the Arsenal game Klopp went on a mini rant over Sadi Mane not being protected enough by the refs. Mane seems to go down very easily when contact is felt. But my impression is he still draws lots of fouls. This is borne out by this (very cool) site. Mane is in the top 10 this year - as he was last year
https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2021_2022/ranking/jugadores/faltas-recibidas/
Rather conspicuous by his complete absence from the list is Mo Salah. Klopp had actually referenced the previous study of MO’s lack of fouls before.
Edit : LFC is 17th in fouls received while middle of the pack in fouls given
https://en.as.com/resultados/futbol/inglaterra/2021_2022/ranking/jugadores/faltas-recibidas/
Rather conspicuous by his complete absence from the list is Mo Salah. Klopp had actually referenced the previous study of MO’s lack of fouls before.
Edit : LFC is 17th in fouls received while middle of the pack in fouls given
Zaha absolutely dominating that as usual. Surprising to see two other Palace players in the top 5 too.
Alexander-Arnold is out for “weeks” according to Klopp with a hamstring injury.
Hopefully back for the City game.
Hopefully back for the City game.
This should be pinned somewhere; modern elite sports is a deal with the devil. A lot of people come to sport to escape from "the real world" and I can understand, but it seems harder and harder to do these days. I'm glad I'm not a Newcastle fan, despite the trophies and successes that seem inevitable.
Let's hope this is an "avoid meaningless International Games" injury. Milner or Bradley should be fine for Nottingham Forest (and even Watford) but we need him back for the Champions League (hello Benfica on April 6th) and Man City (April 10th) fixtures. So, 2.5 weeks?
Well - one hopes for sure - that was a pretty vague prognosis. Agreed that this is a good time to have this injury. RB backup is probably the weakest position on the team right now.