Manager's Discretion

Al Zarilla

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I don’t see any mention of the fact that the HP umpire wasn’t going to issue any warning until crew chief Phil Cuzzi told him to. ESPN had clear footage that that was the case. When the dust settled, the HP ump got back into his position and started to squat down when Cuzzi signaled or yelled at him to do all the warnings, which he did. Smoltz was all over it and was livid that the warnings were issued. Guess NESN missed all that?
 

Adrian's Dome

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I still think it's absurd that umpires are missing context when issuing warnings.

No team intentionally throws at a leadoff batter on an 0-2 count. If Porcello had smacked Gardner square on the ass with a 4-seamer with the first pitch of the game, that would be a different story.

Given the context of Porcello clearly not throwing at Gardner intentionally, it's ridiculous that warnings are issued as Severino immediately went high and hard at Mookie. One of those pitches was intentional, the other was not. The Sox are being warned and pressed into a high stress environment...why?

Perhaps a separate discussion can be started on the universal "warning" and why it automatically applies to both sides when only one is being intentionally (and illogically) aggressive. Is it realistic that umpires could potentially warn specific players on their actions instead of entire teams?
 

Reverend

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I still think it's absurd that umpires are missing context when issuing warnings.

No team intentionally throws at a leadoff batter on an 0-2 count. If Porcello had smacked Gardner square on the ass with a 4-seamer with the first pitch of the game, that would be a different story.

Given the context of Porcello clearly not throwing at Gardner intentionally, it's ridiculous that warnings are issued as Severino immediately went high and hard at Mookie. One of those pitches was intentional, the other was not. The Sox are being warned and pressed into a high stress environment...why?

Perhaps a separate discussion can be started on the universal "warning" and why it automatically applies to both sides when only one is being intentionally (and illogically) aggressive. Is it realistic that umpires could potentially warn specific players on their actions instead of entire teams?
This raises a really interesting issue of information given how early the warning was given and I think it's a good catch.

In retrospect, it just occurred to me listing to Eck and DOB: Porcello had way more movement on his fastball than he usually does last night. Eck was just now speculating how that might even mess up the batters... if the ball doesn't go where it usually does?

Like, now that I think about it, the pitch in question happened before even Porcello knew what kind of stuff he had last night.

But the umpires assumed or imputed intent. Now that we look back... that contention seems even less supportable. Heck, Porcello may not have known where the ball was going for the first few before he figured it out and settled into what he had.
 

Adrian's Dome

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Why not? If you are intending a brushback then it seems an ideal count as you still have a 1-2 count, assuming your control is good enough not to hit the batter.
Seriously?

Because major league hitters, even good ones, all hit like Cesar Crespo on an 0-2 count. At that point you're basically giving away an easy out. There's literally no reason to go for a message there given the risk it actually hits them. Even if it doesn't it sets them on the track to a more favorable count.
 

charlieoscar

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Seriously?

Because major league hitters, even good ones, all hit like Cesar Crespo on an 0-2 count. At that point you're basically giving away an easy out. There's literally no reason to go for a message there given the risk it actually hits them. Even if it doesn't it sets them on the track to a more favorable count.
Well, for starters, it definitely would be better doing it on an 0-2 count than on 3-0/3-1/3-2 counts or 2-2 counts.
 

williams_482

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Well, for starters, it definitely would be better doing it on an 0-2 count than on 3-0/3-1/3-2 counts or 2-2 counts.
I guess the logic here is that you don't expect to actually hit the guy when you throw at him to "send a message"? That's the only way your statement here makes any sense, and I don't think it holds up.

Count - league OBP - change in OBP from ball - change in OBP from HBP
0-2 - .196 - +.031 - +.804
3-0 - .943 - +.057 - +.057
3-1 - .709 - +.291 - +.291
3-2 - .453 - +.547 - +.547

So yes, the cost of throwing a ball in an 0-2 count is very small (which is why we see so many wasted pitches in that count), but the cost of a HBP is about as big as it gets. Meanwhile, drilling a guy on a 3-0 pitch barely costs you anything, as he is overwhelmingly likely to reach base anyway.
 

charlieoscar

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I guess the logic here is that you don't expect to actually hit the guy when you throw at him to "send a message"? That's the only way your statement here makes any sense, and I don't think it holds up.....
I did say a brushback and I did say in my original post with the data that players aren't afraid crowd the plate because of all the body armor they now wear and also that umpires almost never enforce the rule about the batter making an effort to get out of the way. Additionally, if a player crowding the plate gets hit with a pitch in the strike zone, that is supposed to be called a strike, not hit-by-pitch.
 

geoduck no quahog

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Well, for starters, it definitely would be better doing it on an 0-2 count than on 3-0/3-1/3-2 counts or 2-2 counts.
What's nuts is thinking that a pitcher would purposely hit the first batter of the 2nd game of a critical series 1 strike away from retiring him. Up 5 runs in the 7th with 2 outs and no one on? OK. Retaliation for hitting your best player earlier in the game? OK.

Context matters. Severino thought he was protecting Gardiner. Or he was just trying to move Betts' feet.

Porcello had no obvious reason to hit bean head. Severino was a borderline asshole.

The only reason to think Severino wasn't dangerous is that an intention to hit Betts probably would have been at his body. He's still an asshole.
 
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Adrian's Dome

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Up 5 runs in the 7th with 2 outs and no one on?
Even then, a batter would never be intentionally thrown at on 0-2. You do not give up that favorable of a count, ever.

Intentional HBPs happen on 0-0 counts. Or 1-0, if the pitcher somehow happens to miss on the first one. That's it.
 

Rasputin

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I gotta be honest, I don't really like pinch-running for Leon on second in the 10th with two outs in a tie game and two catchers on the DL. There's a really high degree of probability that Dan Butler is going to see game action for a team that kept Swihart on the roster and not playing for three months to avoid having Dan Butler see game action.
 

richgedman'sghost

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Sooner or later, Butler is going to have to start a game, probably in Toronto. Sandy Leon has been ridden very hard by Cora and you don't want to run the risk of Leon collapasing down the stretch. The Red Sox under Cora have preached giving players plenry of rest and with a 9 and a half game lead, they can afford to give Butler at leaat one start.
 

richgedman'sghost

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The reason they kept Blake on the roster is that he is a good player. I think it had more to do with their confidence in Swithart rather than lack of confidence in Butler.
 

Reverend

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Sooner or later, Butler is going to have to start a game, probably in Toronto. Sandy Leon has been ridden very hard by Cora and you don't want to run the risk of Leon collapasing down the stretch. The Red Sox under Cora have preached giving players plenry of rest and with a 9 and a half game lead, they can afford to give Butler at leaat one start.
Don't forget that the understated flip-side of what Cora preaches is that a player can be ready to play at any time without worrying about being hot or not.

It's a really good way of inculcating readiness.
 

teddywingman

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If Leon had been on second, the winning run would not have scored on that play.

You really want to second guess a decision that helped ensure a victory?
 

Rasputin

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The reason they kept Blake on the roster is that he is a good player. I think it had more to do with their confidence in Swithart rather than lack of confidence in Butler.
If they'd had that much confidence in them, they'd have played him.
If Leon had been on second, the winning run would not have scored on that play.

You really want to second guess a decision that helped ensure a victory?
I'm very comfortable second guessing decisions that end up working out. That said, I first guessed this one.
 

teddywingman

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Fair enough. I immediately thought it was the right move, and it worked out.

At worst, Beni makes an out, and you have a AAA catcher playing defense with a possible PA coming in the 12th inning, if the game goes that long.
 

Rasputin

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Fair enough. I immediately thought it was the right move, and it worked out.

At worst, Beni makes an out, and you have a AAA catcher playing defense with a possible PA coming in the 12th inning, if the game goes that long.
With two outs, that's very likely, though, especially when you consider that with any extra base hit, walk, or hbp and most singles the speed at second is irrelevant.
 

Lowrielicious

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With two outs, that's very likely, though, especially when you consider that with any extra base hit, walk, or hbp and most singles the speed at second is irrelevant.
On the other hand, speed at second is very relevant if there is another wild pitch or two in the inning (either in Benis at bat and/or the next one if he doesn't make an out and the game is not over).
Sandy cruised into second easily on the first WP of the inning, but getting to third or scoring on a wild pitch is a different beast.
 

teddywingman

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With two outs, that's very likely, though, especially when you consider that with any extra base hit, walk, or hbp and most singles the speed at second is irrelevant.
I get your point, which is mostly true. I'd only quibble with "most singles." Leon is really slow and could have been held at third or thrown out on the majority of singles, I'd venture.

Anyway. I don't know anything about Butler. If it turns out (we'll soon see) that he's a butcher behind the plate, then yes. The move was a risk. But if it becomes apparent that he's a capable ~replacement level defender, then I don't think that the downgrade from Leon is all that significant. Leon isn't exactly Fisk with the bat, and his spot in the lineup wouldn't come up for another 8 hitters. At which point, with Sonny Gray following Holder, the odds of this team walking it off seemed pretty high.
 

beautokyo

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Speaking of Leon, what do you think he said to the home plate Umpire after getting the walk in the top of the 10th? My guess is "Are you sure that's a strike?" cause the ump got in his face a bit.
 

edoug

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We may see Butler tomorrow. Giving Leon a couple of days off. I think he scores on that play. a slow chopper up the middle and not a particularly good throw. Still I don't condemn Cora for running for Leon. The Yankees bullpen was almost out of bullets.
 

joe dokes

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I get your point, which is mostly true. I'd only quibble with "most singles." Leon is really slow and could have been held at third or thrown out on the majority of singles, I'd venture.

Anyway. I don't know anything about Butler. If it turns out (we'll soon see) that he's a butcher behind the plate, then yes. The move was a risk. But if it becomes apparent that he's a capable ~replacement level defender, then I don't think that the downgrade from Leon is all that significant. Leon isn't exactly Fisk with the bat, and his spot in the lineup wouldn't come up for another 8 hitters. At which point, with Sonny Gray following Holder, the odds of this team walking it off seemed pretty high.

It may be an old trope, but I can't imagine that a 31-year old catcher at AAA is a butcher defensively.
 

tonyarmasjr

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I gotta be honest, I don't really like pinch-running for Leon on second in the 10th with two outs in a tie game and two catchers on the DL. There's a really high degree of probability that Dan Butler is going to see game action for a team that kept Swihart on the roster and not playing for three months to avoid having Dan Butler see game action.
I'm pretty sure that's not the case. If anything along those lines, it was to keep Dan Butler off the 25-man, not out of game action, since he's out of options.

Anyway. I don't know anything about Butler. If it turns out (we'll soon see) that he's a butcher behind the plate, then yes. The move was a risk. But if it becomes apparent that he's a capable ~replacement level defender, then I don't think that the downgrade from Leon is all that significant. Leon isn't exactly Fisk with the bat, and his spot in the lineup wouldn't come up for another 8 hitters. At which point, with Sonny Gray following Holder, the odds of this team walking it off seemed pretty high.
Dan Butler is Sandy Leon - different, but same same. Good receiver, above average defensively. He's a touch below controlling the running game. Overall, he's a replacement level catcher due to not being much of a hitter. .715 career AAA OPS, .740 in 10 ml seasons (and buoyed a little bit by his "prime" years being spent there) vs. Leon's .720 and .654. The only thing that really distinguishes them is that Leon has spent the last few years on a big league roster. I think that's a function of him being a bit younger, being in the right place (Boston) at the right time (see: Swihart, Blake and Vazquez, Christian), and having a miracle first half of 2016.
 

Humphrey

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Toronto is 28th in MLB in stolen bases (or at least stolen bases per game, which might be a tad different due to the number of games played by each team). Keep Leon fresh, play Butler at least one game.
 

edoug

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Maybe, but I'm not sure. And he may have been held up at third. He's pretty slow.
Yes he is but from contact to the throw reaching home it was it took about 8 seconds.
I think if Leon takes a decent secondary lead he makes it. Would he be stopped at third? I'm glad we'll never know.