I'm not surprised Maddon is going back to LAA but why does that influence Cole?MLB says it´s done. This puts Cole closer to the Angels.
https://www.mlb.com/
He was born in California. It´s been said he would like to return there, and Art Moreno has been trying for years to build a team capable of winning a WS. Bringing Maddon in is, I believe a first step, Cole would be the second. Besides, it´s my wishful thinking he doesn´t go to the Evil Empire.I'm not surprised Maddon is going back to LAA but why does that influence Cole?
Cole being from California and Moreno wanting a title would be the same without Maddon. The question was, what does Maddon have to do with making Cole closer to CaliforniaHe was born in California. It´s been said he would like to return there, and Art Moreno has been trying for years to build a team capable of winning a WS. Bringing Maddon in is, I believe a first step, Cole would be the second. Besides, it´s my wishful thinking he doesn´t go to the Evil Empire.
A proven manager, I believe, attracts good players. Maybe I'm skewed with the Patriots.Cole being from California and Moreno wanting a title would be the same without Maddon. The question was, what does Maddon have to do with making Cole closer to California
It is debatable, as with all managers and coaches, how good he really is. But he made Tampa a contender and the Cubs a WS winner. He started making shifts as routine alignments. He is better than most managers. Of course, Cole will take the biggest offer although maybe as some players like the now maligned Ottavino he puts other things in perspective, we will see.Cole will take the biggest offer but I have been saying for a while I think the Angels are the faves. I don’t think Maddon being there will have any effect either way, I think it’s debatable at this point if he is anything special as a manager or just an experienced name.
No he didn't, no he didn't, and it's not too clear, respectively. If you want @VORP Speed to illuminate you on his tenure in TB, I'm sure he'd be happy to.But he made Tampa a contender. He started making shifts as routine alignments. He is better than most managers.
Jon, I wonder why Boone is being discussed as a candidate for MOY, when it strikes me that Cashman is responsible for the team's success this year.He was certainly the manager when those things happened, the question is how much of it was him and how much the front office telling him what to do. The evidence in the intervening years leans a lot towards it being the front office mostly, but again I will let our resident TB fan explain that in more detail.
And FWIW I have always liked Maddon, but I think manager is a different job now than even 5 or 10 years ago, and I'm not sure he is any better than a couple dozen other possibilities.
There is something to be said for a manager who is willing to implement the FO's ideas, though. You think, for example, if the Rays had Jim Leyland they would have done basically the same thing?He was certainly the manager when those things happened, the question is how much of it was him and how much the front office telling him what to do. The evidence in the intervening years leans a lot towards it being the front office mostly, but again I will let our resident TB fan explain that in more detail.
And FWIW I have always liked Maddon, but I think manager is a different job now than even 5 or 10 years ago, and I'm not sure he is any better than a couple dozen other possibilities.
Yeah, this ties into what I'm saying, I think MOY is an anachronistic award that probably should be abolished, it's like Trainer of the Year at this point. I'm not saying it's an easy job to do well, but it's really hard for an outsider to disentangle what the manager is doing and what the front office has instructed him to do. Boone did a great job this year of keeping his team focused despite historically bad injury issues and never losing his temper with the media. This is basically a manager's job now, and Mickey Callaway is an example of a job poorly done, but not sure it really needs an award anymore.Jon, I wonder why Boone is being discussed as a candidate for MOY, when it strikes me that Cashman is responsible for the team's success this year.
Yeah, I don't think we're disagreeing on anything here, and I'd even add that Maddon brings some legitimacy to a team currently dealing with the Skaggs aftermath, which a neophyte manager wouldn't bring.There is something to be said for a manager who is willing to implement the FO's ideas, though. You think, for example, if the Rays had Jim Leyland they would have done basically the same thing?
But I think you're entirely right that any advantage in that regard he may have had has probably gone away because basically every manager now is versed in analytics, works closely with the front office, is willing to experiment, etc. So at this point I agree that his main advantage would be that he doesn't suck, and he has experience leading a team to the World Series on a couple of occasions.
My point is that Cashman had traded for so many excellent parts that it facilitated any juggling Boone had to do. If Cashman had not done that (see DDski), there wouldn't have been much Boone could do.Boone did a great job this year of keeping his team focused despite historically bad injury issues and never losing his temper with the media.
No, I get it, but you could say that about the other candidates too, I'm sure. It's an anachronistic award, they probably should stop giving it out.My point is that Cashman had traded for so many excellent parts that it facilitated any juggling Boone had to do. If Cashman had not done that (see DDski), there wouldn't have been much Boone could do.
That’s a vast overstatement. The position is “manager,” not lineup transcriber. No matter how much input they’re getting, they still have to execute and make the final decisions. Nobody from the front office called down and told Martinez to take Doolittle out w/2 outs and a runner on 1st last night. He made that call.No, I get it, but you could say that about the other candidates too, I'm sure. It's an anachronistic award, they probably should stop giving it out.
Its the Mets, right? It has to be - he only wants to manage in NY.Girardi just stepped down as USA Baseball manager, which likely means he has a MLB job lined up.
or the CubsIts the Mets, right? It has to be - he only wants to manage in NY.
No, Beltran is the one who turned down other interviews and wants to stay in NY. Girardi just wants to manage again.Its the Mets, right? It has to be - he only wants to manage in NY.
Ah that's right. I like both hires for both clubs. Beltran more but both are good.No, Beltran is the one who turned down other interviews and wants to stay in NY. Girardi just wants to manage again.
I have to say that Girardi's a sharper guy than I realized. In his time as nyy manager I think, especially as a Red Sox fan you sort of see the pugnacious front he puts on and he didn't exactly wax poetic with the press. But he's clearly a perceptive guy on many levels.It probably doesn't matter, but poor Joe Girardi desperately wants one of these open jobs and Fox has paired him with the quite stupid AJ Pierzynski, which I think is making Girardi (who I generally love to listen to) sound dumber at a time when I'm sure many GMs are watching and listening. If I were Girardi, I would beg my bosses for a different pairing before the next game.
What about Kapler? He is rumored to be on the Giants short list.If Derek Shelton gets one of the openings this off-season, and it sounds like he’s in mix for Pirates and Mets, then that would be a Rays family tree of Maddon, Martinez, Montoyo, Baldelli, Shelton plus GMs Friedman and eventually Bloom. Vive La Renaissance.
Big shoes, or a big hat to fill there. I don’t follow the NL much anymore, but doesn’t Kapler have some baggage that might need to be checked with him being a coach somewhere before he gets another manager gig?What about Kapler? He is rumored to be on the Giants short list.
Sorry, I feel like I've been jumping on a lot of your posts lately, but guess how many times Bochy won 90 games in the last 21 years (8 for SD, 13 for SF)? 92 in 2010, 94 in 2012, that is it.Big shoes, or a big hat to fill there.
I think he's been great on the MLB Network, really insightful, well thought out and easy to listen too.I have to say that Girardi's a sharper guy than I realized. In his time as nyy manager I think, especially as a Red Sox fan you sort of see the pugnacious front he puts on and he didn't exactly wax poetic with the press. But he's clearly a perceptive guy on many levels.
Maybe he does have a bit of a thing about being the smartest guy in the room. I don't know. But I suspect that being in the same place for 8 or 9 years, whatever his tenure was, the perception of any personality oddities are going to be magnified at the end of such a term.
I'm surprised that there are Sox fans that didn't realize Girardi was smart earlier. In between managing MIA and being hired by NY, he did a year of color commentary for YES and was easily the best announcer I've ever heard. That was 12 years ago, I don't think he's quite as good a universal managerial candidate as he was back then (the game has changed a good bit and also I think he has started to slip slightly), but I would hire him in a second over Showalter (who it looks like PHI might pick) or Dusty Baker or any of the other 'experienced' guys. He would bring some desperately needed professionalism to the Mets if hired there.I have to admit that I was really surprised to learn that he had a degree in industrial engineering from Northwestern. I know formal education isnt everything but I doubt that program is pumping out many idiots
3 World Series titles have him on his way to the hall of fame though, IMO. That’s the idea, I believe, to win those. Also, I don’t think he was ever close to being fired, rare for a manager and says a lot.Sorry, I feel like I've been jumping on a lot of your posts lately, but guess how many times Bochy won 90 games in the last 21 years (8 for SD, 13 for SF)? 92 in 2010, 94 in 2012, that is it.
I know but IMO that was 95 percent his starting pitching and 5 percent him.3 World Series titles have him on his way to the hall of fame though, IMO. That’s the idea, I believe, to win those. Also, I don’t think he was ever close to being fired, rare for a manager and says a lot.
How about getting SD to the WS. All Tony Gwynn?I know but IMO that was 95 percent his starting pitching and 5 percent him.
After thinking the guy was your classic old school retread when the Giants originally hired him, I have become a huge Bochy fan.I know but IMO that was 95 percent his starting pitching and 5 percent him.
How many presidential administrations ago was that? Tommy Lasorda is available also, Jim Leyland too. Managing is a young man's game now with almost no exceptions (Maddon to LAA I think is smart for them and Francona still seems top-notch), you or I could have gotten a title out of Bumgarner in his prime.How about getting SD to the WS. All Tony Gwynn?
I genuinely respect your opinion, but the track record is brutal.In short, Bochy was a damn good manager.
Again, when looking at his track record, are you incorporating the talent levels? Because a cursory glance at a few of those Padres and Giants teams in seasons where they struggled shows that they were, at best, middle of the road in both hitting and pitching and often amongst the worst in the league.I genuinely respect your opinion, but the track record is brutal.
I was mulling over a post like yours so I’ll add onto yours. At SF, Bochy had one position player star, Buster Posey, of course, in the championship years, three very good players in Crawford, Belt and Pence and mostly journeymen around them. For pitchers, Bumgarner of course was a superstar, especially in the post season pitcher, and beyond him were very good for some periods Lincecum and Matt Cain and a mostly disappointing Barry Zito. Again, they got a lot out of some journeymen, like Vogelsong, Affeldt, Casilla and near end of career guys like Tim Hudson and Jake Peavy. Actually, pitching coach Dave Righetti should go into the HOF with Bochy.Again, when looking at his track record, are you incorporating the talent levels? Because a cursory glance at a few of those Padres and Giants teams in seasons where they struggled shows that they were, at best, middle of the road in both hitting and pitching and often amongst the worst in the league.
Manager W/L record seems like a pretty poor metric for the same reasons that pitcher W/L is kind of useless. It tells you very little about the talent around the diamond and instead tries to pin on one person what is really a multi-variable measurement.
To be clear, are you arguing that a managers W/L, without regard for the talent level of the roster, is the best measure of managerial ability? Seems like you are setting the bar kind of low there.It just seems to me like you guys are setting the bar insanely low, but I will stick to my original point that any 'big shoes' that the next SF manager has to fill are almost entirely in perception and not in reality. Of course perception seems to matter more than reality fairly often these days...
I didn't know I was looking forward to seeing a Yankee fan argue that winning World Series rings isn't that big of a deal actually, but I'm real happy to be here.It just seems to me like you guys are setting the bar insanely low, but I will stick to my original point that any 'big shoes' that the next SF manager has to fill are almost entirely in perception and not in reality. Of course perception seems to matter more than reality fairly often these days...
You cite W/L and a bunch of players names but are essentially dismissing actual player performance. Even with the players you cited, they had down years.Nope, I am arguing that a manager who has won 90 games twice in the last 21 years is not 'big shoes to fill'. Obviously talent level matters but that's just too many bad/mediocre years for a team who had Lincecum, Bumgarner, and Cain. Joe Torre won a bunch of titles in NY and then slowly became a worse manager, which was much more evident to me as I watched his team every night. It was a good move for NY to let him go when they did, he was a tire fire in LA when they hired him immediately afterwards, and Girardi was an easy immediate upgrade despite Torre's rings.
Most managers have a shelf life, Bochy had some great postseason runs but IMO his time was up a while ago. If someone else hires him, I do not think he will be successful.