Managing Carousel 2019

patoaflac

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I'm not surprised Maddon is going back to LAA but why does that influence Cole?
He was born in California. It´s been said he would like to return there, and Art Moreno has been trying for years to build a team capable of winning a WS. Bringing Maddon in is, I believe a first step, Cole would be the second. Besides, it´s my wishful thinking he doesn´t go to the Evil Empire.
 

E5 Yaz

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He was born in California. It´s been said he would like to return there, and Art Moreno has been trying for years to build a team capable of winning a WS. Bringing Maddon in is, I believe a first step, Cole would be the second. Besides, it´s my wishful thinking he doesn´t go to the Evil Empire.
Cole being from California and Moreno wanting a title would be the same without Maddon. The question was, what does Maddon have to do with making Cole closer to California
 

patoaflac

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Cole being from California and Moreno wanting a title would be the same without Maddon. The question was, what does Maddon have to do with making Cole closer to California
A proven manager, I believe, attracts good players. Maybe I'm skewed with the Patriots.
 

jon abbey

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Cole will take the biggest offer but I have been saying for a while I think the Angels are the faves. I don’t think Maddon being there will have any effect either way, I think it’s debatable at this point if he is anything special as a manager or just an experienced name.
 

patoaflac

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Cole will take the biggest offer but I have been saying for a while I think the Angels are the faves. I don’t think Maddon being there will have any effect either way, I think it’s debatable at this point if he is anything special as a manager or just an experienced name.
It is debatable, as with all managers and coaches, how good he really is. But he made Tampa a contender and the Cubs a WS winner. He started making shifts as routine alignments. He is better than most managers. Of course, Cole will take the biggest offer although maybe as some players like the now maligned Ottavino he puts other things in perspective, we will see.
 

jon abbey

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But he made Tampa a contender. He started making shifts as routine alignments. He is better than most managers.
No he didn't, no he didn't, and it's not too clear, respectively. If you want @VORP Speed to illuminate you on his tenure in TB, I'm sure he'd be happy to.
 

patoaflac

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When he got there on 2006, the team was a disaster, but from 2008 to 2013 he had a good run with the Rays, winning the AL East for the first time and getting to a WS with a team with a low budget and no fan base. Of course there have been better managers in MLB, but he´s had some great years. By the way I don´t like the guy, because he has this air of superiority.
 

jon abbey

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He was certainly the manager when those things happened, the question is how much of it was him and how much the front office telling him what to do. The evidence in the intervening years leans a lot towards it being the front office mostly, but again I will let our resident TB fan explain that in more detail.

And FWIW I have always liked Maddon, but I think manager is a different job now than even 5 or 10 years ago, and I'm not sure he is any better than a couple dozen other possibilities.
 

InsideTheParker

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He was certainly the manager when those things happened, the question is how much of it was him and how much the front office telling him what to do. The evidence in the intervening years leans a lot towards it being the front office mostly, but again I will let our resident TB fan explain that in more detail.

And FWIW I have always liked Maddon, but I think manager is a different job now than even 5 or 10 years ago, and I'm not sure he is any better than a couple dozen other possibilities.
Jon, I wonder why Boone is being discussed as a candidate for MOY, when it strikes me that Cashman is responsible for the team's success this year.
 

OurF'ingCity

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He was certainly the manager when those things happened, the question is how much of it was him and how much the front office telling him what to do. The evidence in the intervening years leans a lot towards it being the front office mostly, but again I will let our resident TB fan explain that in more detail.

And FWIW I have always liked Maddon, but I think manager is a different job now than even 5 or 10 years ago, and I'm not sure he is any better than a couple dozen other possibilities.
There is something to be said for a manager who is willing to implement the FO's ideas, though. You think, for example, if the Rays had Jim Leyland they would have done basically the same thing?

But I think you're entirely right that any advantage in that regard he may have had has probably gone away because basically every manager now is versed in analytics, works closely with the front office, is willing to experiment, etc. So at this point I agree that his main advantage would be that he doesn't suck, and he has experience leading a team to the World Series on a couple of occasions.
 

jon abbey

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Jon, I wonder why Boone is being discussed as a candidate for MOY, when it strikes me that Cashman is responsible for the team's success this year.
Yeah, this ties into what I'm saying, I think MOY is an anachronistic award that probably should be abolished, it's like Trainer of the Year at this point. I'm not saying it's an easy job to do well, but it's really hard for an outsider to disentangle what the manager is doing and what the front office has instructed him to do. Boone did a great job this year of keeping his team focused despite historically bad injury issues and never losing his temper with the media. This is basically a manager's job now, and Mickey Callaway is an example of a job poorly done, but not sure it really needs an award anymore.
 

jon abbey

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There is something to be said for a manager who is willing to implement the FO's ideas, though. You think, for example, if the Rays had Jim Leyland they would have done basically the same thing?

But I think you're entirely right that any advantage in that regard he may have had has probably gone away because basically every manager now is versed in analytics, works closely with the front office, is willing to experiment, etc. So at this point I agree that his main advantage would be that he doesn't suck, and he has experience leading a team to the World Series on a couple of occasions.
Yeah, I don't think we're disagreeing on anything here, and I'd even add that Maddon brings some legitimacy to a team currently dealing with the Skaggs aftermath, which a neophyte manager wouldn't bring.
 

VORP Speed

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Maddon was really good at being an extension of the front office on the field, before that became the standard role for managers. It wasn't a trivial task at the time the Rays hired Maddon to find someone willing to go along with all the against the book, breaking the unwritten rules, goofy shit the front office wanted to do and, more than just tolerate it, actually embrace being the public face of it. He deserves a lot of credit for that. He bought into the analytics and the hierarchy, put the glasses on and became a super genius.
 

jon abbey

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Girardi just stepped down as USA Baseball manager, which likely means he has a MLB job lined up.
 

InsideTheParker

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Boone did a great job this year of keeping his team focused despite historically bad injury issues and never losing his temper with the media.
My point is that Cashman had traded for so many excellent parts that it facilitated any juggling Boone had to do. If Cashman had not done that (see DDski), there wouldn't have been much Boone could do.
 

jon abbey

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My point is that Cashman had traded for so many excellent parts that it facilitated any juggling Boone had to do. If Cashman had not done that (see DDski), there wouldn't have been much Boone could do.
No, I get it, but you could say that about the other candidates too, I'm sure. It's an anachronistic award, they probably should stop giving it out.
 

Plympton91

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No, I get it, but you could say that about the other candidates too, I'm sure. It's an anachronistic award, they probably should stop giving it out.
That’s a vast overstatement. The position is “manager,” not lineup transcriber. No matter how much input they’re getting, they still have to execute and make the final decisions. Nobody from the front office called down and told Martinez to take Doolittle out w/2 outs and a runner on 1st last night. He made that call.
 

Rough Carrigan

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It probably doesn't matter, but poor Joe Girardi desperately wants one of these open jobs and Fox has paired him with the quite stupid AJ Pierzynski, which I think is making Girardi (who I generally love to listen to) sound dumber at a time when I'm sure many GMs are watching and listening. If I were Girardi, I would beg my bosses for a different pairing before the next game.
I have to say that Girardi's a sharper guy than I realized. In his time as nyy manager I think, especially as a Red Sox fan you sort of see the pugnacious front he puts on and he didn't exactly wax poetic with the press. But he's clearly a perceptive guy on many levels.

Maybe he does have a bit of a thing about being the smartest guy in the room. I don't know. But I suspect that being in the same place for 8 or 9 years, whatever his tenure was, the perception of any personality oddities are going to be magnified at the end of such a term.
 

jon abbey

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VORP Speed

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If Derek Shelton gets one of the openings this off-season, and it sounds like he’s in mix for Pirates and Mets, then that would be a Rays family tree of Maddon, Martinez, Montoyo, Baldelli, Shelton plus GMs Friedman and eventually Bloom. Vive La Renaissance.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If Derek Shelton gets one of the openings this off-season, and it sounds like he’s in mix for Pirates and Mets, then that would be a Rays family tree of Maddon, Martinez, Montoyo, Baldelli, Shelton plus GMs Friedman and eventually Bloom. Vive La Renaissance.
What about Kapler? He is rumored to be on the Giants short list.
 

jon abbey

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Big shoes, or a big hat to fill there.
Sorry, I feel like I've been jumping on a lot of your posts lately, but guess how many times Bochy won 90 games in the last 21 years (8 for SD, 13 for SF)? 92 in 2010, 94 in 2012, that is it.
 

YTF

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I have to say that Girardi's a sharper guy than I realized. In his time as nyy manager I think, especially as a Red Sox fan you sort of see the pugnacious front he puts on and he didn't exactly wax poetic with the press. But he's clearly a perceptive guy on many levels.

Maybe he does have a bit of a thing about being the smartest guy in the room. I don't know. But I suspect that being in the same place for 8 or 9 years, whatever his tenure was, the perception of any personality oddities are going to be magnified at the end of such a term.
I think he's been great on the MLB Network, really insightful, well thought out and easy to listen too.
 

sean1562

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I have to admit that I was really surprised to learn that he had a degree in industrial engineering from Northwestern. I know formal education isnt everything but I doubt that program is pumping out many idiots
 

jon abbey

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I have to admit that I was really surprised to learn that he had a degree in industrial engineering from Northwestern. I know formal education isnt everything but I doubt that program is pumping out many idiots
I'm surprised that there are Sox fans that didn't realize Girardi was smart earlier. In between managing MIA and being hired by NY, he did a year of color commentary for YES and was easily the best announcer I've ever heard. That was 12 years ago, I don't think he's quite as good a universal managerial candidate as he was back then (the game has changed a good bit and also I think he has started to slip slightly), but I would hire him in a second over Showalter (who it looks like PHI might pick) or Dusty Baker or any of the other 'experienced' guys. He would bring some desperately needed professionalism to the Mets if hired there.
 

Al Zarilla

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Sorry, I feel like I've been jumping on a lot of your posts lately, but guess how many times Bochy won 90 games in the last 21 years (8 for SD, 13 for SF)? 92 in 2010, 94 in 2012, that is it.
3 World Series titles have him on his way to the hall of fame though, IMO. That’s the idea, I believe, to win those. Also, I don’t think he was ever close to being fired, rare for a manager and says a lot.
 

jon abbey

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3 World Series titles have him on his way to the hall of fame though, IMO. That’s the idea, I believe, to win those. Also, I don’t think he was ever close to being fired, rare for a manager and says a lot.
I know but IMO that was 95 percent his starting pitching and 5 percent him.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I know but IMO that was 95 percent his starting pitching and 5 percent him.
After thinking the guy was your classic old school retread when the Giants originally hired him, I have become a huge Bochy fan.

During the Giants three World Series runs, Bochy conducted a master class in how to manage not just a pitching staff but an entire roster. The most remarkable thing to me was how bloodless he was in making moves. Prior to 2010 Bochy seemed to have a reputation as a players manager but that switched flipped down the stretch.

The results were that he seemed to get everything out out rosters that featured a top MLB pitching staff only once (2010) and almost uniformly middle of the road offenses across that era. I weigh that far more than his W/L records with a lot of really bad teams (he didn't buy the groceries).

In short, Bochy was a damn good manager.
 

jon abbey

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How about getting SD to the WS. All Tony Gwynn?
How many presidential administrations ago was that? Tommy Lasorda is available also, Jim Leyland too. Managing is a young man's game now with almost no exceptions (Maddon to LAA I think is smart for them and Francona still seems top-notch), you or I could have gotten a title out of Bumgarner in his prime.

Also, looking at the 1998 SD team, Kevin Brown and Sterling Hitchcock had most of the wins with dominant pitching performance, then NY swept them in the WS.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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I genuinely respect your opinion, but the track record is brutal.
Again, when looking at his track record, are you incorporating the talent levels? Because a cursory glance at a few of those Padres and Giants teams in seasons where they struggled shows that they were, at best, middle of the road in both hitting and pitching and often amongst the worst in the league.

Manager W/L record seems like a pretty poor metric for the same reasons that pitcher W/L is kind of useless. It tells you very little about the talent around the diamond and instead tries to pin on one person what is really a multi-variable measurement.
 

Al Zarilla

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Again, when looking at his track record, are you incorporating the talent levels? Because a cursory glance at a few of those Padres and Giants teams in seasons where they struggled shows that they were, at best, middle of the road in both hitting and pitching and often amongst the worst in the league.

Manager W/L record seems like a pretty poor metric for the same reasons that pitcher W/L is kind of useless. It tells you very little about the talent around the diamond and instead tries to pin on one person what is really a multi-variable measurement.
I was mulling over a post like yours so I’ll add onto yours. At SF, Bochy had one position player star, Buster Posey, of course, in the championship years, three very good players in Crawford, Belt and Pence and mostly journeymen around them. For pitchers, Bumgarner of course was a superstar, especially in the post season pitcher, and beyond him were very good for some periods Lincecum and Matt Cain and a mostly disappointing Barry Zito. Again, they got a lot out of some journeymen, like Vogelsong, Affeldt, Casilla and near end of career guys like Tim Hudson and Jake Peavy. Actually, pitching coach Dave Righetti should go into the HOF with Bochy.

Anyway, if you look at those Giants teams, they had nowhere near the stars that the Astros, Red Sox, Dodgers and Yankees have in the current period.
 

jon abbey

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It just seems to me like you guys are setting the bar insanely low, but I will stick to my original point that any 'big shoes' that the next SF manager has to fill are almost entirely in perception and not in reality. Of course perception seems to matter more than reality fairly often these days...
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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It just seems to me like you guys are setting the bar insanely low, but I will stick to my original point that any 'big shoes' that the next SF manager has to fill are almost entirely in perception and not in reality. Of course perception seems to matter more than reality fairly often these days...
To be clear, are you arguing that a managers W/L, without regard for the talent level of the roster, is the best measure of managerial ability? Seems like you are setting the bar kind of low there.
 

jon abbey

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Nope, I am arguing that a manager who has won 90 games twice in the last 21 years is not 'big shoes to fill'. Obviously talent level matters but that's just too many bad/mediocre years for a team who had Lincecum, Bumgarner, and Cain. Joe Torre won a bunch of titles in NY and then slowly became a worse manager, which was much more evident to me as I watched his team every night. It was a good move for NY to let him go when they did, he was a tire fire in LA when they hired him immediately afterwards, and Girardi was an easy immediate upgrade despite Torre's rings.

Most managers have a shelf life, Bochy had some great postseason runs but IMO his time was up a while ago. If someone else hires him, I do not think he will be successful.
 

Leskanic's Thread

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It just seems to me like you guys are setting the bar insanely low, but I will stick to my original point that any 'big shoes' that the next SF manager has to fill are almost entirely in perception and not in reality. Of course perception seems to matter more than reality fairly often these days...
I didn't know I was looking forward to seeing a Yankee fan argue that winning World Series rings isn't that big of a deal actually, but I'm real happy to be here.

(I do see where JA is coming from -- Bochy is getting elevated to a high status that his 20+ year regular season record doesn't really back up. But while "rarely won 90+ games in a season" shoes aren't that big, "was able to pull the right strings at the right time for three Octobers this decade" are. Whether that's perception or reality is in the eye of the beholder, I guess.)
 

jon abbey

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There's just such a disconnect between the three postseason runs (four including the one with SD) and the rest of his career. Even if those WS teams had been great regular season teams, I'd be more impressed, but he's like the David Freese of managers or something. Freese just retired, I'm pretty sure no one is saying his replacement has 'big shoes' to fill.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Nope, I am arguing that a manager who has won 90 games twice in the last 21 years is not 'big shoes to fill'. Obviously talent level matters but that's just too many bad/mediocre years for a team who had Lincecum, Bumgarner, and Cain. Joe Torre won a bunch of titles in NY and then slowly became a worse manager, which was much more evident to me as I watched his team every night. It was a good move for NY to let him go when they did, he was a tire fire in LA when they hired him immediately afterwards, and Girardi was an easy immediate upgrade despite Torre's rings.

Most managers have a shelf life, Bochy had some great postseason runs but IMO his time was up a while ago. If someone else hires him, I do not think he will be successful.
You cite W/L and a bunch of players names but are essentially dismissing actual player performance. Even with the players you cited, they had down years.

More to the point, both San Francisco and San Diego had essentially replacement level production from both hitters and pitchers during the majority of their fallow seasons. If you want to dismiss that or claim that its Bochy's fault that is something else.

But the fact that he was able to win three WS with what was a strong core pitching staff plus one star regular player enhances his legacy rather than taints it for me. Torre had far more talent to work with than Bochy during their last runs so I get your criticism there.
 

jon abbey

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Girardi seems like he will get the Phillies or the Mets job, he would I think be a pretty good hire for either.

Lots of other names rumored for the Mets too (Eduardo Perez and Beltran both seem good candidates) but Brodie loves to go off the board. Maybe he’ll go with Geno Auriemma or Steve Carell or Elon Musk, or maybe he’ll send Syndergaard to the Astros for his college roommate Hinch.

Brodie is the GM equivalent of Charlie Day in this scene, WILD CARD, BITCHES!!

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MYtjpIwamos