YES, same here. I have to go back and re-read certain passages to make sure.
Manning Legacy: Scrotal Recall
- Thread starter GeorgeCostanza
- Start date
Peyton's running with a pretty shady crowd:
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/12/30/indy-doctor-manning-case-tied-financier-tim-durham/78070332/
Very sloppy/careless by Manning and the Colts to associate with this clinic and Guyer. This story adds context to the unethical activity and lack of overall integrity. More smoke. Dunham is a major swindler in this area who devastated many people and businesses.
We're continuing to head down the rabbit hole here. I hope AJ and the non-ESPN media stick with it.
http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/12/30/indy-doctor-manning-case-tied-financier-tim-durham/78070332/
Very sloppy/careless by Manning and the Colts to associate with this clinic and Guyer. This story adds context to the unethical activity and lack of overall integrity. More smoke. Dunham is a major swindler in this area who devastated many people and businesses.
We're continuing to head down the rabbit hole here. I hope AJ and the non-ESPN media stick with it.
Also of note the tangential incident with Guyer's step-son trying to murder a cop that pulled him over and subsequently dying in a shoot out seems more suspiciously drug related.
Let's remember the context. On September 8 2011, Peyton had his third surgery for the herniated disk issue. This one took a part of his hip to try to fuse bones in his spine.
He had spent time in Europe that summer, after the second surgery, seeking stem cell treatments, which were not successful.
As of late August, the Colts hoped he would play Game 1. By October, it was clear he wouldn't play that season but he didn't go on IR. The Colts had until March 1st to decide whether to pick him up for $28M.
While some in the press spoke of possible retirement as early as September 13, it was clear he wanted to play before the end of the season to show he was worthy of that money. The possibility of him playing the final game in that lost Colts season was floated as late as December.
So we don't know why exactly he would have used HGH but we do know that HGH accelerates recovery and that Peyton had every incentive ($28M from Colts or a team willing to pay him in free agency) to get back into playing shape as soon as possible.
We also know that around this time his wife received HGH from a clinic that was previously known to traffic in HGH [http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...roncos-hgh-ped-dale-guyer-institute/78025512/ ] (Sly's internship was signed for in October 2011 per the Guyer clinic).
We also know that Sly has significant incentive to recant, given the illegality of the HGH shipments and HIPAA violations demonstrated in the AJ report.
He had spent time in Europe that summer, after the second surgery, seeking stem cell treatments, which were not successful.
As of late August, the Colts hoped he would play Game 1. By October, it was clear he wouldn't play that season but he didn't go on IR. The Colts had until March 1st to decide whether to pick him up for $28M.
While some in the press spoke of possible retirement as early as September 13, it was clear he wanted to play before the end of the season to show he was worthy of that money. The possibility of him playing the final game in that lost Colts season was floated as late as December.
So we don't know why exactly he would have used HGH but we do know that HGH accelerates recovery and that Peyton had every incentive ($28M from Colts or a team willing to pay him in free agency) to get back into playing shape as soon as possible.
We also know that around this time his wife received HGH from a clinic that was previously known to traffic in HGH [http://www.indystar.com/story/news/...roncos-hgh-ped-dale-guyer-institute/78025512/ ] (Sly's internship was signed for in October 2011 per the Guyer clinic).
We also know that Sly has significant incentive to recant, given the illegality of the HGH shipments and HIPAA violations demonstrated in the AJ report.
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Just one quibble. We don't "know" that Manning's wife received hGH, unless I missed confirmation of that somewhere along the line. People choose to give more or less weight to Sly's claim, based on the totality of the other evidence in the documentary.
I thought Deborah Davies stated in one of her interviews that she had confirmation {meaning more than Sly's statements} of the shipments to Mrs. Manning.
Where is this? I heard this mentioned once before, but only earlier in this thread. Are we sure this wasn't a mixup during a live interview and that she was talking about "confirmation" via Manning's non-denial? I haven't heard her say it in any of the interviews I've watched, but I could have missed it and would be happy to be proven wrong. I'd also love to know how this could possibly be confirmed - the Mannings and Guyer certainly aren't cooperating.
This is exactly what I said. We don't "know" anything yet and people choose to give more or less weight to the claim based on evidence.
Listen, I think he probably did it, but we don't need to make shit up. Go over to the other thread to remind yourself of that.
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It's all well and good to talk about what is firmly known or not known at this point, but per post # 656 you're intimating that all Davies has as evidence are Sly's claims when she's clearly stated she has evidence beyond Sly. Yes, we'll see how it shakes out.
No one's making stuff up. This was in the documentary and very clearly stated by Deborah Davies on the Today show. She also said that they went "through a very rigorous editorial and legal process to be able to substantiate what is in the program."
And it's not even in dispute by anyone involved (including those who have emphatically denied everything else while admitting she had a prescription from Guyer).
So we know this as well as the other facts I outlined. I won't get into your DFG reference because it doesn't even merit a response. The reporting here is a difference in kind not degree.
Post #55 says Manning's agent confirmed HGH was delivered in Mrs.' name. No link though in that post. On my phone so no link to the post with no link.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for the OP to post an update with links separating facts from speculation.
Perhaps it would be a good idea for the OP to post an update with links separating facts from speculation.
I can see why you thought that, but I meant the evidence in the doc and whatever corroboration we've seen.
Come on...I know what's in the documentary. When I say making shit up, I mean making up that it's a known fact. While it may be a shield, not discussing one's medical history is a pretty good one. We cannot take non-denial as confirmation.
Yes, I'd love to see that. If it's true the agent said this, then I'm sorry for wasting people's time.
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You keep saying Sly's story. Do you mean the reporting in the documentary/Davies' reporting?
We "know" it because AJ/Davies reported it.
But you seem to be saying, that means we don't actually know it. Somehow, even though this fact is completely uncontested, we need to hear it from the Manning camp. Or maybe you want confirmation from the Chris Mortensens of the world. That seems to set a pretty high bar for "knowing."
But fine, I'll play along:
Scenario 1: The AJ report is wrong. Davies was wrong to repeat it on the Today show. The Guyer prescription for Ashley Manning that the Manning camp confirmed to Ian Rappaport was for something other than HGH.
Scenario 2: The AJ report is right. Ashley did receive HGH from Guyer.
Sure, since I didn't see the package and test the vial within, I don't know which scenario is fact.
But here's the thing with the denial strategy that Manning embarked on: when you deny everything but then partly confirm the primary allegation, it's hard to take you seriously at all.
I'll give into your point on "knowing". But all my money is on scenario 2.
The fact that you had to list out options means it's not a fact she received hGH. Let me know when you find that quote from Manning or his agent confirming she received hGH...or the quote from Davies saying they confirmed the delivery...and I'll shut up.
You're confusing my unwillingness to declare it a fact with my ability to deduce and form an opinion. IMO, it's likely
See post #555 in this thread. Davies says that AJ confirmed the shipments of HGH to Ashley Manning in Florida with a member of Peyton's own camp.
Thank you both. I had previously watched several interviews with Davies, and this is the only one where I've seen her go as far as saying "we know for sure that hGH was shipped to Ashley Manning" and further explains that it has been confirmed by someone in Manning's camp. I will say that her follow up on that statement is a little squirrely as she says "they have not denied that", but I'll give her the benefit of the doubt on language there. If what another poster said is true about Manning's agent confirming the hGH shipment, then that would help.
But I'll shut up now.
Finally. So, as I said, here is the situation in 2011:
* Early in the year, 2nd surgery.
* Summer: Peyton has stem cell treatments in Europe. These appear to be unsuccessful.
* September 8: 3rd surgery.
* Within a week, there are reports he'll be out the whole season or maybe even retire.
* In October, November, December or January, Ashley Manning receives prescribed drugs from Guyer (confirmed by Manning camp). Davies' reporting from Sly and other investigative journalism indicates this is HGH (not contested by anyone involved). (Dates assume Guyer confirmation of Oct 2011 start date for 3 month job was correct.) We do know Guyer deals in HGH from other reports and the 2007 conviction of his distributor.
* In December, Colts & Manning hope Manning can start last game of season. (Possibly driven more by Manning than the Colts, but he was not IR'ed as far as I can tell.)
* May 1: Colts $28M decision on Manning due.
Great post. I think one more point worth adding is:
* On March 31, 2011, Ashley Manning gives birth to twins, ruling out fertility issues as possible justification for HGH use.
Only remaining possibilities that could justify Ashley using HGH:
* HIV wasting. Seeing how Peyton is playing a game where cuts and bleeding are common, I think it's safe to assume he didn't contract HIV from Ashley, and thus Ashley does not have HIV. Guyer would not be able to prescribe HGH for this reason anyways.
* Intestinal issues, which, again, would have not been prescribed by Dr. Guyer at an anti-aging clinic.
He used HGH. He's a complete slime-ball for trying to let his wife take the hit for it when it's clear she has no reason to be using growth hormones. If he were half the man the media and NFL tries to make him out to be, he'd come clean to save his wife from scrutiny she doesn't deserve. The longer he lets this happen the worse of a human being he proves to be.
Are we certain that there is absolutely no post natal use for HGH ,anecdotal or otherwise? It would clearly not be one of the three valid reasons for a doctor to prescribe it, (as part of an IVF regimen isn't either but still done), but is there nobody out there who claims its benefits to deal with something involving women who had just given birth?
I'm just asking if anyone has heard of any reason post natal related that someone might be using HGH. I'm not or ever have been looking to have kids, so this isn't an area I know a huge amount about. I know other folks on here have, so somebody might have heard about something.
Manning has more money than God. Why would his wife get drugs from an anti aging doctor for anything doing with post natal problems? Wouldn't she have access to the best doctors in the world? It seems we are twisting ourselves in knots trying to find a reason for the hgh being sent to her.
I don't think its unreasonable to ask. I wasn't aware it was used in conjunction with fertility treatments till this whole thing started. And I would have to assume there isn't a post natal use, or someone here or elsewhere would have stated it by now, but it doesn't hurt to ask to make sure. Think of it as just trying to be thorough.
Bob Kravitz mentioned getting HGH from Guyer for fatigue. A parent of a newborn (twins in the Mannings' case) is certainly someone prone to exhaustion in the months postpartum. That could well be enough to limit how far anything goes for Peyton.
Guyer and Sly, however, plus the guys in Vancouver, probably will be in some trouble.
Guyer and Sly, however, plus the guys in Vancouver, probably will be in some trouble.
I don't believe for a second that Kravitz just happened to get hGH from the same anti aging clinic as the one in this story - he doesn't have enough journalistic integrity for me to believe it. I read that as his way of hinting "hey, even if it turns out Saint Peyton was taking hGH, it isn't cheating because it doesn't provide a competitive advantage." Oh the irony.
Are we certain that there is absolutely no non-natal use for HGH (post or otherwise) that is also off-label? The documentary claimed that there wasn't, but an IVF regimen, as is pointed out, isn't in the list of valid reasons and still seems to be done. If there's one off-label use that's done, why not others?
I have a suspicion that the HGH experts being consulted are trying to diminish the use of HGH, and are therefore inclined to suggest that its use is highly limited. But there may be loopholes, which these experts don't care to advertise. Meanwhile, the doc's who are exploiting these loopholes aren't really interested in calling attention to said loopholes, since that would be the first step to closing them. So we might not be hearing about other off-label uses, but they're still there.
Sure, but if we go that far we are saying that Ashley Manning acquired HGH for an off-label use completely unaware of the potential impact to her husband's legacy and career. Either Ashley Manning is not smart, the Mannings thought no one would notice she was acquiring HGH for herself or Peyton wanted HGH and acquired it in his wife's name. C seems the most likely explanation, still.
Assuming that Guyer is in fact hooking clients up with HGH for illegal off-label use, the HGH in question probably isn't going to be traceable legitimate product. You don't need a loophole. It was interesting to hear Sly talk about the virtues of D2 in the documentary as he mentioned he could 'keep his hands clean' as all he had to do was tell the athletes where to order it from and not procure it for them.
I don't know about this. From everything I read on boards where people actually write about taking this stuff for performance enhancement, the benefit of going to a doctor (in addition to having your body monitored) is that you know a prescription gets you legit hGH as opposed to bunk.
In fact, in a court filing a few pages back, we have evidence that this doctor has purchased hGH through a legit distributor (who happened to be caught repackaging and selling non-FDA approved Chinese hGH, presumably because of the higher profit margin).
The expert in the documentary went farther than this. He says, and Davies repeated on the Today show, that HGH is different from many other drugs in that prescription for anything other than the 3 uses is actually illegal. And yet fertility clinics do sometimes use it in IVF cycles. I don't yet know how to square this circle.
It would be very aggressive for a 37 year-old woman with 7-10 month old twins to pursue a new IVF cycle with HGH. So aggressive that a fertility clinic might not want to go there, leaving the patient to seek this option at a sketchy anti-aging clinic.
This is entirely implausible to me - more hoop jumping to save Peyton - but it's probably his best way out.
(Also, if she were doing IVF again, she would probably follow the same cycle protocol that worked with the twins, so if she's doing this in 2011 she would have also used HGH in 2010 in all likelihood. There are many ways to do IVF and you stick with what works.)
Maybe so, but I thought the use of non-FDA-approved product made it easier on everyone involved in the chain.
Here's a summary from HGH.org on the legality of non-FDA approved uses. It's hard to see how the state AG or feds stay away from going after Guyer:
"The food and drug administration has clearly stated, 'Whoever knowingly distributes, or possesses with intent to distribute, the Human growth hormone for any use in humans other than the treatment of a disease or other recognized medical conditions, where such use has been authorized by the Secretary of Health and Human Services, is guilty of an offense punishable by not more than 5 years in prison.' In addition, the law provides for fines....
These laws are supported by different parts of the Federal Food, Drug, and Cosmetic Act... According to the law, the Human Growth Hormone can only be lawfully administered by a physician, as a part of the treatment plan for a medical condition for which the administration of HGH is authorized. Use of the hormone for any other purpose is illegal.
If a person is caught administering HGH (without a prescription) with the intention to deceive or mislead, he would be subjected to minimum three years of imprisonment in a federal prison. As result of a proliferation of illegal, prescription-HGH, two additional laws have been designed and enforced..."
Regarding Kravitz, it's certainly possible. Or he was just noting how the Guyer Clinic seems to be touting HGH use to clients. I suppose that too could be seen by Kravitz as providing some cover to Peyton. In the AJ documentary, Sly does say at one point that he was surprised that Guyer hadn't been shut down since they were so aggressive at pushing stuff like HGH.
Perhaps, but from what I've seen, companies that are going the full black market route usually don't operate out in the open and ship from other countries.
It's all speculation...I'm probably wrong
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The best part of AJA and Davies being so professional about this is the constant drip-drip-drip. It's only gotten worse for Manning (and, presumably, the less-famous people implicated here as well), steadily, since day 1. Every time they think it's going to go away or they'll get some plausible deniability, there's another smackdown.
I really don't get it either.
If Giselle was reportedly receiving HGH shipments after Brady tore his ACL, and the story broke now, the story would be a lead story on the nightly news broadcasts.
To me, it comes down to AJA being the source of the story. Hell, I was flipping around a couple of nights ago and Lou Holtz was on FoxNews saying AJA was trying to bring America down with this story.
Your third paragraph contradicts your second paragraph. It's not about Al-Jazeera, it's about Manning (and not Brady) so people are trying to kill the story. I may seem whiny/paranoid/homer-ish writing that, but I believe it's true.
Personally, this changes nothing about how I feel about Manning and all his accomplishments. He has been a great and terrifying opponent for years and is top 5 or 6 all-time in my book and this story diminishes all of that 0.0%. But if does give me something annoying to say to various annoying people when they bring up Atmospheregate or Papi's anonymous drug screen so I am (very) grateful for that.
Yeah, Green Bay in particular and MLB seem to be skating by in Manning's shadow, for now at least.
While I don't disagree with top 6, I am curious: If true, he used a banned substance to extend his career to the Denver years. Are you saying this doesn't diminish his career because HGH shouldn't be banned, because it should have a limited use exception for herniated disk recovery, or because you think he would have successfully come back anyway?
Because it really doesn't matter what he used because everyone is using something. Yes, everyone is doing it.
It's not really in the league's interest, or any of the agencies that report on it, to expose widespread PED abuse, is it?
I don't think it's exactly a coincidence that *all* of the major networks (NBC, ABC/ESPN, CBS, FOX) has a stake in the NFL.