Manny, Ortiz, Duquette, Gedman, and Dinneen to be inducted into Red Sox Hall of Fame

67YAZ

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Happy for all of them, especially Duquette. He was the last GM before the great reorganization of the front office into baseball ops and business ops. He was there setting ticket prices, picking alternate uniform designs, overseeing the minor leagues, and negotiating free agent deals all at the same time - truly a general manger. The Duke did great work and deserves the recognition.
 

moondog80

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In a related story, this year's inductees into the WWF Hall of Fame are going to be Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, and SD Jones.
 

gars finnvold

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Duquette was also instrumental in signing and trading for a much larger number of African-American and Latino players. Talent became the most important factor in why the team pursued a player. That change in culture alone makes him worthy of inclusion in the RS HOF.
 

lexrageorge

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Duquette was by no means perfect, and I along with most fans was glad to see him gone once Henry & Co took over. But he also did a lot of good things, despite the front office being populated by a number of holdovers from the Yawkey regime. The Duke couldn't do much about that; Harrington was still in charge.

Rich Gedman really seemed like he could take over the Carlton Fisk mantle at one point until back injuries derailed his career.
 

Teachdad46

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Happy for all of them, especially Duquette. He was the last GM before the great reorganization of the front office into baseball ops and business ops. He was there setting ticket prices, picking alternate uniform designs, overseeing the minor leagues, and negotiating free agent deals all at the same time - truly a general manger. The Duke did great work and deserves the recognition.
After Dan's departure he founded a baseball academy for kids out in western MA. We sent our youngest son there for a week in late June. I drove down in a pouring rain and arrived to find Dan under an umbrella in a yellow hooded rain coat, water pouring off every square inch of him, coming out to the car to help us unload. He was gracious and unhurried, and stayed with us all the way through to handing us off to a staff member for registration once we were inside and settled. I was struck by the disparity between his public image and those 15 minutes.
 

oumbi

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I confess that I had no idea who Dinneen was, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. What impressed me, aside from his career, was this letter written by AL President Johnson to Babe Ruth, who had argued with and insulted Dinneen, who was serving as an umpire at the time. Johnson was a good writer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Dinneen
Dinneen had his own confrontation with Ruth in the 1922 season. On June 19, the outfielder got into an argument with the umpire, and during the next day's game he (Ruth) again insulted the official. In response, AL president Ban Johnson on June 21 sent a letter to Ruth, reading in part:[1]

I was keenly disappointed and amazed when I received Umpire Dinneen's report, recounting your shameful and abusive language to that official in the game at Cleveland last Monday. Bill Dinneen was one of the greatest pitchers the game ever produced, and with common consent we hand to him today the just tribute. He is one of the cleanest and most honorable men baseball ever fostered. ... Your conduct at Cleveland on Monday was reprehensible to a great degree – shocking to every American mother who permits her boy to go to a professional game. The American League cares nothing for Ruth. The individual player means nothing to the organization. When he steps on the ball field he is subject to our control and discipline. ... Again you offended on Tuesday. You branded Umpire Dinneen as 'yellow.' This is the most remarkable declaration a modern ball player has made. Dinneen stands out in the history of the game as one of the most courageous players we have ever had. If you could match up to his standard you would not be in the trough you occupy today. ... Coupled with your misconduct on Monday, you doubled the penalty on Tuesday. You are hereby notified of your suspension for five days without salary. It seems the period has arrived when you should allow some intelligence to creep into a mind that has plainly been warped.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Was that what did it? He never seemed the same after that hold-out in 1987.
That's my recollection too.

And it wasn't really a hold-out, I might be getting some details wrong, but back in the mid 80s there was a rule that basically said, if you're a free agent and don't sign with your former team by January 6 (I'm probably wrong about this date, but for some reason it sticks out in my mind), you can't rejoin your old team until May 1*. Gedman was a free agent in the midst of collusion, so even though he was a two-time All Star catcher (and there weren't a ton of them around) he sat on his hands until May 1 because he wouldn't sign for what the Sox offered. So since the Red Sox were good soldiers and did what the rest of the owners thought was right, they consequently had Marc Sullivan (son of Haywood) as the starting catcher for the first month. He sucked, the Red Sox sucked and they went into a tailspin for that year.

Gedman came back and looked wildly out-of-sync all year. His career nose-dived after that.

* Tim Raines also had to sit out the first month and all of Spring Training for the Expos. I remember watching the Game of the Week when he came back against the Mets and destroyed them. I think he went something like 4-5, with a grand slam, a few stolen bases and some nice plays in the field. I remember thinking that he was the anti-Gedman.
 

Ale Xander

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Happy for all of them, especially Duquette. He was the last GM before the great reorganization of the front office into baseball ops and business ops. He was there setting ticket prices, picking alternate uniform designs, overseeing the minor leagues, and negotiating free agent deals all at the same time - truly a general manger. The Duke did great work and deserves the recognition.
It's a shame Duquette is no longer setting Fenway ticket prices. They seem to have been lower when he was setting them.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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That's my recollection too.

And it wasn't really a hold-out, I might be getting some details wrong, but back in the mid 80s there was a rule that basically said, if you're a free agent and don't sign with your former team by January 6 (I'm probably wrong about this date, but for some reason it sticks out in my mind), you can't rejoin your old team until May 1*. Gedman was a free agent in the midst of collusion, so even though he was a two-time All Star catcher (and there weren't a ton of them around) he sat on his hands until May 1 because he wouldn't sign for what the Sox offered. So since the Red Sox were good soldiers and did what the rest of the owners thought was right, they consequently had Marc Sullivan (son of Haywood) as the starting catcher for the first month. He sucked, the Red Sox sucked and they went into a tailspin for that year.

Gedman came back and looked wildly out-of-sync all year. His career nose-dived after that.
You've got the basics right regarding Gedman. There was a hold-out that spring, but it was Clemens who held out because he refused to sign his pre-arb tender.
 

67YAZ

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It's a shame Duquette is no longer setting Fenway ticket prices. They seem to have been lower when he was setting them.
Remember when Fenway was a raucous Dominican party for Pedro's starts? Sigh...

If you want a kick, read the transcript from the EPSN "Outside the Lines" episode that followed Manny Ramirez during free agency (can't seem to dredge up the video):

Dan Duquette, General Manager, Boston Red Sox- I wanted to give this to you. What it is is really basically how we think you can really help the ball club, how we think you can really help the Red Sox and how we think you'll feel comfortable in Boston. Most of the Dominican players that come to the city, they seem to be comfortable there.

The most dynamic thing for the team is that you would go into the middle of the lineup with Garciaparra and Carl Everett (ph). So it should help you put up with good numbers. And fans in Boston appreciate your unique skill and your ability to hit.

Ramirez- I'm one of those guys that don't talk a lot. I just go and try to play the game. And...

Duquette- Yeah. You've always been quiet and businesslike and ready.

Ramirez- That's the only thing you could do is just work and see if you're happy.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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You've got the basics right regarding Gedman. There was a hold-out that spring, but it was Clemens who held out because he refused to sign his pre-arb tender.
Was this the winter when he went on Channel 5 and lamented that he (and his teammates) "had to carry their own luggage" from the airport? I remember that made people absolutely froth at the mouth.

I was at Shea Stadium that day in 1987 when Tim Raines returned. What a performance. IIRC, he hit a triple and just zoomed around the bases.
Even though I was 12 at the time, I remember being at my grandmother's house, watching that game and wondering why the Red Sox couldn't get players like that. For a while Raines, was otherworldly.
 

lexrageorge

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After 1986 World Series ended in inglorious fashion, Gedman was a free agent, but did not get any offers due to collusion. He was victimized by that stupid rule that free agents could not sign with their former team between early January and May 1st. He signed with the Sox soon after May 1st. He got hurt after only 50 games, and then much later revealed that he had a painful back injury from that point forward which kept him from swinging a bat. After averaging well over 130 games per season from 1984-86, he never exceeded 100 appearances behind the plate again.

Clemens contract similarly expired, but he was not eligible for free agency. He held out most of spring training and did not make his first start until the Sox 5th game of the season, as he had to finish working up his arm strength late in spring training.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Was this the winter when he went on Channel 5 and lamented that he (and his teammates) "had to carry their own luggage" from the airport? I remember that made people absolutely froth at the mouth.
Indeed it was. I believe he also had some laments about what a shithole Fenway was (he wasn't really wrong). In the hands of a more elegant speaker, it all might have carried more weight in support of his "the team is cheap" argument regarding his contract. But of course, Clemens was never a very elegant speaker.
 

moondog80

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Was this the winter when he went on Channel 5 and lamented that he (and his teammates) "had to carry their own luggage" from the airport? I remember that made people absolutely froth at the mouth.
It wasn't like he held a press conference to announce that he was tired of carrying his own luggage. He was making a point (perhaps prompted by the interviewer, I can't find the transcript) that certain aspects of being a ballplayer aren't as glamorous as people think. But much like Duquette's "twilight of his career" comment, where he was actually referring to the very long-term deal he had hoped Clemens would sign, the comment took a life of its own and turned into something else.
 

joe dokes

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The 2004 team won in great part because of Duquette's deals
Without getting into that debate, even if Duquette didn't ultimately steer the ship into port, he helped get the Sullivan Leroux Sox off the rocks and pointed the SS Harrington in the right direction.
 

E5 Yaz

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Without getting into that debate, even if Duquette didn't ultimately steer the ship into port, he helped get the Sullivan Leroux Sox off the rocks and pointed the SS Harrington in the right direction.
Always seemed petty that Nomar (and Brandon Puffer) got rings, but Duquette got a bag of rocks
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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true. i just thought he deserved some credit for that team
He was responsible for acquiring eight players of The 25 (Pedro, Manny, Damon, Wakefield, Lowe, Varitek, Mirabelli, Youkilis). Eight pretty damn important cogs in the championship machine, but who deserves more credit for their presence, Duquette for acquiring them or his successors for not trading them away? 50/50?

I think he gets adequate recognition for his role in that team.
 

joe dokes

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true. i just thought he deserved some credit for that team
I think he gets the appropriate amount of credit. 1/3 give him too much. 1/3 given him too little (Those 2 groups often the product of hot takes). And the rest have it about right.
 

santadevil

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I confess that I had no idea who Dinneen was, so I looked him up on Wikipedia. What impressed me, aside from his career, was this letter written by AL President Johnson to Babe Ruth, who had argued with and insulted Dinneen, who was serving as an umpire at the time. Johnson was a good writer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Dinneen
Dinneen had his own confrontation with Ruth in the 1922 season. On June 19, the outfielder got into an argument with the umpire, and during the next day's game he (Ruth) again insulted the official. In response, AL president Ban Johnson on June 21 sent a letter to Ruth, reading in part:[1]
This is really amazing and I loved the letter from Johnson to Ruth
We have such different opinions of the greats, even though we are reminded almost daily that many of our sports hero's shouldn't be our role models, it was also true back when Ruth played.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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In a related story, this year's inductees into the WWF Hall of Fame are going to be Stone Cold Steve Austin, The Rock, and SD Jones.
Holy crap SD Jones is in the WWE Hall of Fame. Wow haha. I guess he was a trailblazer for jobbers everywhere.

But yes Manny is well overdue. That number should also really be retired. One of the best hitters of his era. Steroids or no steroids.
 

8slim

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After 1986 World Series ended in inglorious fashion, Gedman was a free agent, but did not get any offers due to collusion. He was victimized by that stupid rule that free agents could not sign with their former team between early January and May 1st. He signed with the Sox soon after May 1st. He got hurt after only 50 games, and then much later revealed that he had a painful back injury from that point forward which kept him from swinging a bat. After averaging well over 130 games per season from 1984-86, he never exceeded 100 appearances behind the plate again.

Clemens contract similarly expired, but he was not eligible for free agency. He held out most of spring training and did not make his first start until the Sox 5th game of the season, as he had to finish working up his arm strength late in spring training.
RE: Gedman, as his career progressed I remember him becoming a devotee of the Walk Hriniak hitting style. Gedman ended up with a long, looping swing where his top hand came off the bat. So as he was addled with those injuries, there were times he looked absolutely impotent at the plate, hands flailing as he swung and missed. It was a shame, because as others have stated, Gedman was one helluva catcher for a few years. Really glad to see him get into the Sox HOF. I wonder if the AAA move to Worcester played a role, because he's been front and center on that recently.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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RE: Gedman, as his career progressed I remember him becoming a devotee of the Walk Hriniak hitting style. Gedman ended up with a long, looping swing where his top hand came off the bat. So as he was addled with those injuries, there were times he looked absolutely impotent at the plate, hands flailing as he swung and missed. It was a shame, because as others have stated, Gedman was one helluva catcher for a few years. Really glad to see him get into the Sox HOF. I wonder if the AAA move to Worcester played a role, because he's been front and center on that recently.
But I remember that Hriniak was credited with saving Gedman's career, no? Same thing with Boggs and Evans too.

I just read Hriniak's wiki and I forgot that Ted Williams had a major problem with Hriniak's (and I guess Charlie Lau's) style of hitting. That must've been a tough go of it for old Walt, being employed by the Red Sox and getting constantly ripped by their greatest hitter.
 

8slim

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But I remember that Hriniak was credited with saving Gedman's career, no? Same thing with Boggs and Evans too.

I just read Hriniak's wiki and I forgot that Ted Williams had a major problem with Hriniak's (and I guess Charlie Lau's) style of hitting. That must've been a tough go of it for old Walt, being employed by the Red Sox and getting constantly ripped by their greatest hitter.
Great question. I'm sure you're right, I can't remember the sequence of events though.
 

lexrageorge

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IIRC, Hriniak became hitting coach in 1984, but had been with the team for quite a few years before hand. Yaz, Boggs, and Evans became disciples and all had success under his instruction. Gedman was also a disciple and was fine at the plate prior to 1987.

Here is a thread and some other info on Gedman's injury issues:

https://sonsofsamhorn.net/index.php?threads/wtf-ever-happened-to-rich-gedman-and-the-1987-boston-red-sox.12454/
https://archive.bangordailynews.com/2003/07/29/ex-sox-gedman-likes-role-as-coach-former-catcher-instructing-hitters/
 

Teachdad46

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That's my recollection too.

And it wasn't really a hold-out, I might be getting some details wrong, but back in the mid 80s there was a rule that basically said, if you're a free agent and don't sign with your former team by January 6 (I'm probably wrong about this date, but for some reason it sticks out in my mind), you can't rejoin your old team until May 1*. Gedman was a free agent in the midst of collusion, so even though he was a two-time All Star catcher (and there weren't a ton of them around) he sat on his hands until May 1 because he wouldn't sign for what the Sox offered. So since the Red Sox were good soldiers and did what the rest of the owners thought was right, they consequently had Marc Sullivan (son of Haywood) as the starting catcher for the first month. He sucked, the Red Sox sucked and they went into a tailspin for that year.

Gedman came back and looked wildly out-of-sync all year. His career nose-dived after that.

* Tim Raines also had to sit out the first month and all of Spring Training for the Expos. I remember watching the Game of the Week when he came back against the Mets and destroyed them. I think he went something like 4-5, with a grand slam, a few stolen bases and some nice plays in the field. I remember thinking that he was the anti-Gedman.
Good memory...four for six with a slam...
 

67YAZ

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I think he gets adequate recognition for his role in that team.
He doesn't get enough credit for the work he did while GM. As I mentioned above, he was GM at a time when the GM was expected to oversee the business side and the baseball side. Harrington was owner and team president, and the Duke was second in command. Over 8 years, they grew revenues, increased attendance, and consequently, boosted the payroll from 11th highest in 1994 to 2nd highest in 2002 (Duke was fired in February after the bulk of the roster had be set). And he invested that extra money pretty well. His top 4 paid players were Manny (6 WAR), Pedro (6.4), Nomar (6.8), and Damon (4.9). Of course, the next 5 players put up a collective 1.4 WAR for $38.6m. But considering he inherited a team whose 2nd highest paid player was Andre Dawson (-1.1.WAR in 1994) immediately followed by 34 year old Frank Viola, 30 year old Mike Greenwell, 35 year old Otis Nixon (though he looked 70), 32 year old Jeff Russell, 38 year old Danny Darwin, and the immortal Joe Hesketh in his 35 year old season...Lou Gorman left an old & shitty roster behind. The Duke left Theo a much, much better hand while also making the playoffs 3 times along the way.

The Troy O’Leary singing alone earns him a spot in the Red Sox HoF.
 
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sean1562

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HriniakPosterChild

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But I remember that Hriniak was credited with saving Gedman's career, no? Same thing with Boggs and Evans too.

I just read Hriniak's wiki and I forgot that Ted Williams had a major problem with Hriniak's (and I guess Charlie Lau's) style of hitting. That must've been a tough go of it for old Walt, being employed by the Red Sox and getting constantly ripped by their greatest hitter.
Yes.

“Dewey Evans pretty near makes me vomit the way he swings.” —Ted
 

Archer1979

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But I remember that Hriniak was credited with saving Gedman's career, no? Same thing with Boggs and Evans too.

I just read Hriniak's wiki and I forgot that Ted Williams had a major problem with Hriniak's (and I guess Charlie Lau's) style of hitting. That must've been a tough go of it for old Walt, being employed by the Red Sox and getting constantly ripped by their greatest hitter.
Thanks HPC. I've always thought that was one of the greatest columns ever written:

https://www.si.com/vault/1986/04/14/633776/a-real-rap-session
GAMMONS: DO you realize that you three just agreed that the basics of the Ted Williams and Charley Lau theories are really the same and that you've been debating semantics?

WILLIAMS: I still say that what they do isn't what the Lau book preaches.
Also:
BOGGS: That's the way I hit, and you try to say I don't hit like that.

WILLIAMS: I didn't say that. I never told you a thing about your swing. Your hands are right, but you don't practice the way you hit. When you get in the cage, you swing through with your head straight down—Dewey Evans pretty near makes me vomit the way he swings.

MATTINGLY: I don't buy that, either.
 

moondog80

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i really dont know enough about advanced defensive metrics for catchers. Is Jason Varitek a Red Sox HoF? Sad that young sox fans wont even know who that guy is in ten years smh.
Rich Gedman is not exactly a high bar to clear.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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i really dont know enough about advanced defensive metrics for catchers. Is Jason Varitek a Red Sox HoF? Sad that young sox fans wont even know who that guy is in ten years smh.
Varitek went into the Red Sox Hall of Fame in 2016. Not sure why young fans 10 years from now not knowing who he is is all that noteworthy. Young fans rarely are going to know every former player no matter how good they were or how important those that saw them play think they were. History can be learned with time.
 

John Marzano Olympic Hero

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Indeed.

For Pedro alone, Duquette was a legend.
Getting Manny - amidst the media circus that ESPN was forcing him into - was great as well.

Dan Duquette will always hold a special place in my memory.
Duquette did a lot of things right, getting Pedro and Manny are 1 and 1a, but also completely hoodwinking the Mariners into parting with not only Lowe but Varitek for Heathcliff Slocumb is an all-time move. Drafting Nomar was another great thing. He did some dumb things too and for awhile was obsessed with turning trash into treasure, and was adversarial about his role with the press (which completely poisoned the well against him) but for the most part, he was a net positive.

One of the things that I really liked about Duquette is that he understood what a sunk cost was and how it's okay to move on from mistakes, he was the anti-Lou Gorman in this.