Mark Bellhorn: Hero or zero?

Tim Salmon

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Oct 24, 2005
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Quite the level to place Duran on.
Just a few lineups that may be in best ever combo

3B Pete Rose
RF Ken Griffey (Sr.)
2B Joe Morgan
LF George Foster
C Johnny Bench

CF Johnny Damon
2B Mark Bellhorn
LF Manny Ramirez
DH David Ortiz

CF Kenny Lofton
SS Omar Vizquel
2B Carlos Baerga
LF Albert Belle
DH Eddie Murray
3B Jim Thome
RF Manny Ramirez

CF Earle Combs
SS Mark Koenig
RF Babe Ruth
1B Lou Gehrig
I'm irrationally angry that you put together a list that includes Bellhorn. I don't even want him in the same thread as my good Soto vibes.
 

Big Papi's Mango Salsa

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I'm irrationally angry that you put together a list that includes Bellhorn. I don't even want him in the same thread as my good Soto vibes.
Did he run over your dog or something? I'm struggling to think of anything he could have done that would give you such a visceral reaction as to have it outweigh his incredible stretch from Game 6 of the ALCS through Game 1 of the WS in 2004.
 

Tim Salmon

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Did he run over your dog or something? I'm struggling to think of anything he could have done that would give you such a visceral reaction as to have it outweigh his incredible stretch from Game 6 of the ALCS through Game 1 of the WS in 2004.
Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
 

TapeAndPosts

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Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
Man, I would have loved to have 2004 Mark Bellhorn on the 2024 Red Sox. His 3.7 bWAR would have tied Raffy Devers for second place on the team.
 

JohntheBaptist

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Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
This is a bit, right?

Sorry, I am so stunned by this take I had to ask. What on earth.
 

cantor44

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Dec 23, 2020
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Did he run over your dog or something? I'm struggling to think of anything he could have done that would give you such a visceral reaction as to have it outweigh his incredible stretch from Game 6 of the ALCS through Game 1 of the WS in 2004.
I love Mark Bellhorn and we will ever be indebted to him! Long live Mark Bellhorn!
 

BeantownIdaho

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Dec 5, 2005
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Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
How do you remember Tim Salmon's 2004 and 2005 seasons?
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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If you don't love Mark Bellhorn it feels like you root for the wrong ballclub or maybe weren't around for 2004. One of the 25. Always love!
 

Hendu for Kutch

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Apr 7, 2006
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Nashua, NH
2004 AL Second Basemen:

92186

2004 Red Sox Postseason:

92187

In closing, you're wrong and I hate your guts. Never take Bellhorn's name in vain again. In that little 8 game win streak he had game-winning HRs in 25% of the games! Plus the official Yankee death knell home run!
 

nvalvo

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Jul 16, 2005
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Baseball-Reference informs me that in 2004, Bellhorn had 10.4 cWPA, i.e. Championship Win Probability Added. I wonder where that ranks all time for a single postseason.

Edit: 13.2 was just for the World Series.

Second edit: Not that high. Here are the top 10.

Championship WPA (cWPA) (Season)
Rank. Player
1. David Freese • 2011 84.5 71 PA
2. Hal Smith • 1960 63.6 8 PA
3. Bucky Harris • 1924 57.1 34 PA
4. Lance Berkman • 2011 56.7 76 PA
5. Tris Speaker • 1912 55.4 34 PA
6. Max Carey • 1925 53.9 31 PA
7. George Springer • 2017 50.6 83 PA
8. Harry Walker • 1946 46.2 22 PA
9. Gene Tenace • 1972 45.7 45 PA
10. Willie Stargell • 1979 44.8 46 PA
 
Last edited:

Tim Salmon

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If you don't love Mark Bellhorn it feels like you root for the wrong ballclub or maybe weren't around for 2004. One of the 25. Always love!
I'd rank Bellhorn above Schilling and Damon on the "One of the 25" love-o-meter, but I still don't want him anywhere on near a list of all-time great 1-4 lineups while I'm fantasizing about what the Sox could look like with Soto.
 

BaseballJones

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Oct 1, 2015
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Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
This is what I remember about Mark Bullhorn:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkXPxy_e1sI


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i_oo8QqXSTg


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8kYNJminXrE
 

Pandemonium67

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Apr 17, 2003
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One shortcoming of the 2004 Sox Netflix doc is that it didn't show Bellhorn's Game 6 dinger. Nor did it mention that a Sosher got head from his wife anytime Bellhorn went deep.
 

Tim Salmon

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One shortcoming of the 2004 Sox Netflix doc is that it didn't show Bellhorn's Game 6 dinger. Nor did it mention that a Sosher got head from his wife anytime Bellhorn went deep.
Huh, I had to fold the laundry every time Bellhorn struck out. I folded until we ran out of clothes.
 

Philip Jeff Frye

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Oct 23, 2001
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Didn't expect to see a debate about Mark Bellhorn in the "We're signing Juan Soto!!1!" thread, that's for sure.
 

tims4wins

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Everyone is citing the 3 game stretch (games 6-7-1), which means that everyone is forgetting that he had another HUGE hit in game 2 of the WS. Up 2-1 in the 4th inning, facing Matt Morris, 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, and he knocked one off the wall in CF for a 2-run double and a 4-1 lead.

Mark Bellhorn is a hero and @Tim Salmon should probably be banned.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh3BM2iw3_g&ab_channel=MLB
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Jul 19, 2005
4,116
I know there’s probably not going to be Soto news anytime soon, and I like reminiscing about Bellhorn as much as the next Sox fan who didn’t play for the Angels for a decade, but could we move that stuff elsewhere?
 

tims4wins

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This one in particular angers me to no end: "Bellhorn is a dark wraith in my happy memories of the 2004 team"

THERE ARE NO HAPPY MEMORIES OF 2004 WITHOUT MARK FUCKING BELLHORN

I'm irrationally angry that you put together a list that includes Bellhorn. I don't even want him in the same thread as my good Soto vibes.
Did he run over your dog or something? I'm struggling to think of anything he could have done that would give you such a visceral reaction as to have it outweigh his incredible stretch from Game 6 of the ALCS through Game 1 of the WS in 2004.
Recency bias, maybe? I never liked "three true outcome" players, and I never forgave him for all the whiffs that preceded his fluky ALCS and WS (he still went just 9/47 that postseason with 17Ks, so every AB had me on edge).

His 2005 season was abysmal, and that's how I remember him.
Man, I would have loved to have 2004 Mark Bellhorn on the 2024 Red Sox. His 3.7 bWAR would have tied Raffy Devers for second place on the team.
This is a bit, right?

Sorry, I am so stunned by this take I had to ask. What on earth.
I'm committed to the bit. Bellhorn is a dark wraith in my happy memories of the 2004 team. We're on to Soto.
I love Mark Bellhorn and we will ever be indebted to him! Long live Mark Bellhorn!
How do you remember Tim Salmon's 2004 and 2005 seasons?
Agreed a thousand percent
If you don't love Mark Bellhorn it feels like you root for the wrong ballclub or maybe weren't around for 2004. One of the 25. Always love!
2004 AL Second Basemen:

View attachment 92186

2004 Red Sox Postseason:

View attachment 92187

In closing, you're wrong and I hate your guts. Never take Bellhorn's name in vain again. In that little 8 game win streak he had game-winning HRs in 25% of the games! Plus the official Yankee death knell home run!
Baseball-Reference informs me that in 2004, Bellhorn had 10.4 cWPA, i.e. Championship Win Probability Added. I wonder where that ranks all time for a single postseason.

Edit: 13.2 was just for the World Series.

Second edit: Not that high. Here are the top 10.

Championship WPA (cWPA) (Season)
Rank. Player
1. David Freese • 2011 84.5 71 PA
2. Hal Smith • 1960 63.6 8 PA
3. Bucky Harris • 1924 57.1 34 PA
4. Lance Berkman • 2011 56.7 76 PA
5. Tris Speaker • 1912 55.4 34 PA
6. Max Carey • 1925 53.9 31 PA
7. George Springer • 2017 50.6 83 PA
8. Harry Walker • 1946 46.2 22 PA
9. Gene Tenace • 1972 45.7 45 PA
10. Willie Stargell • 1979 44.8 46 PA
I'd rank Bellhorn above Schilling and Damon on the "One of the 25" love-o-meter, but I still don't want him anywhere on near a list of all-time great 1-4 lineups while I'm fantasizing about what the Sox could look like with Soto.
In postseason WPA, which is different than cWPA, David Ortiz's 2004 is second to Freese's 2011 but Ortiz is the career leader with two seasons ('04 and '13) in the top 10!

Amazingly, Juan Soto is second in postseason WPA despite only being 26 years old. He's played in ten series for three teams across three postseasons and been fantastic, with positive WPA in 9 of 10 series and a .281/.389/.538 slash line.
If Soto doesn’t sign here I’m blaming Tim Salmon.
There was a series of shirts aimed at women around that time featuring many players...
"Love me... Ortiz me"
"I'd do porn with Mark Bellhorn"
One shortcoming of the 2004 Sox Netflix doc is that it didn't show Bellhorn's Game 6 dinger. Nor did it mention that a Sosher got head from his wife anytime Bellhorn went deep.
Huh, I had to fold the laundry every time Bellhorn struck out. I folded until we ran out of clothes.
Didn't expect to see a debate about Mark Bellhorn in the "We're signing Juan Soto!!1!" thread, that's for sure.
Right, but that's why we're here.
Everyone is citing the 3 game stretch (games 6-7-1), which means that everyone is forgetting that he had another HUGE hit in game 2 of the WS. Up 2-1 in the 4th inning, facing Matt Morris, 2nd and 3rd, 2 outs, and he knocked one off the wall in CF for a 2-run double and a 4-1 lead.

Mark Bellhorn is a hero and @Tim Salmon should probably be banned.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lh3BM2iw3_g&ab_channel=MLB
I know there’s probably not going to be Soto news anytime soon, and I like reminiscing about Bellhorn as much as the next Sox fan who didn’t play for the Angels for a decade, but could we move that stuff elsewhere?
 

Ale Xander

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Oct 31, 2013
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I don’t get the 3 outcomes hate (for success, not entertainment)

Aren’t 2 of them good? And the 3rd is better than a GIDP
 

slamminsammya

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Jul 31, 2006
11,196
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I loved Bellhorn and remember having a season long argument with my high school classmate about whether they should be starting Bellhorn or Pokey Reese. He was great all year and huge in the postseason and “well besides his massive contributions in the biggest games” is objectively the wrong way to appreciate him.
 

Dollar

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May 5, 2006
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I have nothing but great memories of Mark Bellhorn, so I thought maybe OP was conflating Mark Bellhorn and Mark Loretta or something... which made me realize that 2006 Mark Loretta was somehow a starter in the All-Star Game that year... WTF? 80 OPS+, 0.5 WAR, and an All-Star starter... what a year.
 

AlNipper49

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You know how you kind of hate all of your spouses ex's for no good reason other than maybe a little negative jealousy? That's how I look at the Cubs and their own Bellhorn era. Fuck the Cubs.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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Jul 19, 2005
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Bellhorn led the league in 2004 with 177 strikeouts. That total would have him tied for 8th now with Brent Rooker and Adolis Garcia. Elly de la Cruz had 218, what a scrub!
EDIT: Bellhorn was second in MLB in 2004 behind Adam Dunn.
 

AbbyNoho

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Jan 20, 2006
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I had that shirt. I'm pretty sure they were selling it outside Fenway even before the 04 playoffs.
Bellhorn was also the only member of the 04 Sox who was born in Boston.

There's a reason we names the color Salmon after their pink insides and not their shiny scales.
 

AlNipper49

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To be fair, and I should go back to the offline archives, but wasn't Bellhorn pretty shat upon up until the playoffs?
 

TimScribble

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Loved cheering for Bellhorn during his time here. I recall reading on this site about the mentality of a K was better than a potential DP (true three outcomes) and all the other insightful info. He was a fun follow all season, especially in the playoffs.
 

tims4wins

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I have nothing but great memories of Mark Bellhorn, so I thought maybe OP was conflating Mark Bellhorn and Mark Loretta or something... which made me realize that 2006 Mark Loretta was somehow a starter in the All-Star Game that year... WTF? 80 OPS+, 0.5 WAR, and an All-Star starter... what a year.
Well he did have a pretty hot run in the first half and was at a .305 BA at the ASB... that includes a 48 game stretch from May 4 to June 29 where he hit .374.
 

Tim Salmon

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Loved cheering for Bellhorn during his time here. I recall reading on this site about the mentality of a K was better than a potential DP (true three outcomes) and all the other insightful info. He was a fun follow all season, especially in the playoffs.
I remember all 10 of Bellhorn's GIDPs from that year. He couldn't even strike out on cue.
 

PedroisGod

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Mark Bellhorn arguably should have been the MVP of the World Series.

The litmus test for who was an intelligent fan and who was a moron back in 2004 was whether you were for Bellhorn or Pokey. The idiots who chanted for Pokey in game 5 of the ALCS should forever live with shame.

Mark Bellhorn is a damn legend.
 

Yelling At Clouds

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The litmus test for who was an intelligent fan and who was a moron back in 2004 was whether you were for Bellhorn or Pokey. The idiots who chanted for Pokey in game 5 of the ALCS should forever live with shame.
Hey now, no need to denigrate Pokey to elevate Bellhorn, both can (and did, obviously) co-exist on a good team's roster. I'd take both on the current version of the Red Sox, frankly!
 

TapeAndPosts

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I remember all 10 of Bellhorn's GIDPs from that year. He couldn't even strike out on cue.
GIDPs are going to go up when you play on a team with people getting on base in front of you all the time. At least he didn't have 12, like David Ortiz, or 17, like Manny Ramirez, some noted questionable hitters. His GIDP total was fifth on the team, also behind Millar and Varitek. And Tejada and Posada tied for the league lead with 24, so I'm not really feeling like his twin killing rate was anything to worry about. He got on base at a .373 clip, hit 37 doubles and 17 home runs. He only had two good seasons, but boy was that one of them.