The famously uncalled Sorensen helmet to helmet that cost the Browns a TD and completely changed the game.
That's life in Patrick's world, tho.
Maye-day Every Day
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
- Start date
That's life in Patrick's world, tho.
Not draft a QB at #3, trade that pick, draft the best LT in the draft, use the rest of the draft capital to shore up the multiple other positions of need on the team. Draft the best QB available this year if one progresses to "stud" level during the season, or don't if there are none available that are worth it and pick up someone like a Baker Mayfield, Geno Smith, Zach Wilson, etc. That seems to be working out ok for a few teams this year. Even TB12 was pretty bad without a good supporting cast and then went to TB and won a SB the following year. Maybe it's more important to have that supporting cast in place before wasting a year on a QB that may still turn out to be a total bust.
A lot of virtual ink has been spilled about the pros and cons of protecting a QB from starting before he is ready, but what about those other positions?
If this is a lost/rebuilding year, wouldn't the best long-term approach be to get all those rookies more reps? Mort, your post might have been tongue-in-cheek, but I'm serious. Let's see if Baker, Wallace and/or Robinson can all get better with reps at their proper positions.
This has been a valid, and unproven argument, for many years. Do you get the chicken or the egg?
Would this team be better off with Joe Alt right now?
Would the Jets have been better off drafting Penei Sewell or Rashawn Slater (or Micah Parsons) instead of Zack Wilson?
Sticking with 2021, Miami traded out of 1-3 down to 1-6 (ultimately) to get Jaylen Waddle and leave Trey Lance to SF. Who won that deal?
2021 is a fascinating draft to look back at 3+ years later. Tons of pre-draft trade jockeying; five 1st round QBs (all in top 15); nine Pro Bowlers in the first round. But all the studs, with the exception of Trevor Lawrence, play elsewhere than QB.
There were a few people around here debating and considering the merits of punting on the QB and shoring up the line first, grabbing additional picks along the way. If your goal was maximizing win totals around here in 2024, that absolutely would have been the way to go. Even Sam Darnold is suddenly winning games, like the guys that you mentioned. Problem is that you are de facto capping any chance of being a serious Super Bowl contender with a mid QB. It's not impossible...mid guys have on SBs, but it handicaps you materially. So you solve problem #1 (QB) and make decisions and add depth everywhere and then try to solve problem #2 (OT) in the next offseason. It's a strategy.
Now, if they grab more JAGs at OT in the next offseason and start off with a "if everyone stays healthy for 17 games we might just be below average" offensive line FUCKING AGAIN, then putting the whole front office in a Titanic submarine is on the agenda IMO.
Geno Smith, Sam Darnold, Baker Mayfield are having resurgent seasons because they are throwing the ball to DK Metcalf, Tyler Lockett, JSN, Justin Jefferson, Jordan Addison, Mike Evans, Chris Godwin and in Seattle and Minny's situations, they also have Kenneth Walker III and Aaron Jones to keep defenses honest.
The lack of weapons in the Pats offense is an issue going back to 2019. The offensive line has simply followed suit, and this is the predictable result of all of it. Tom Brady could throw on a helmet and pads right now and throw for 4,000 yards and 25td's if he wanted to play QB for the Miami Dolphins.
I'm not giving up hope on Polk, Baker, etc. yet as the whole team just sucks, but if I have to see Thornton lead the team in targets or Austin fucking Hooper/Hunter Henry as our offensive firepower for much longer, I'm going to lose my mind. I've been telling everyone for years that Rhamondre is a JAG, and now it looks like he's getting benched for Kevin Harris...
This is bad, like really bad, but at some point, you have to throw Drake Maye out there and give him reps and if he's as good as he's supposed to be, the results, either way, are not going to break him.
The lack of weapons in the Pats offense is an issue going back to 2019. The offensive line has simply followed suit, and this is the predictable result of all of it. Tom Brady could throw on a helmet and pads right now and throw for 4,000 yards and 25td's if he wanted to play QB for the Miami Dolphins.
I'm not giving up hope on Polk, Baker, etc. yet as the whole team just sucks, but if I have to see Thornton lead the team in targets or Austin fucking Hooper/Hunter Henry as our offensive firepower for much longer, I'm going to lose my mind. I've been telling everyone for years that Rhamondre is a JAG, and now it looks like he's getting benched for Kevin Harris...
This is bad, like really bad, but at some point, you have to throw Drake Maye out there and give him reps and if he's as good as he's supposed to be, the results, either way, are not going to break him.
one good thing... there is a higher quality and quantity of tackles likely to be available next year, so paired with a draft pick you could pretty solidly upgrade the starting unit, and by sliding everyone down 1 strengthen the depth.
I think a bigger key for Darnold and Baker is that their lines are also very good, those guys played places with weapons before and were terrible. Seattle's line is less good, but they have had a big jump with the same personnel, that you can probably attribute to the new coaching staff.
Yeah hard to unpack completely, but the lines make a huge difference. The weapons do too of course and coaching, but nobody is good with no time to throw. And almost everyone is at least ok with time.
Line and QB to me are the most important, then weapons. Weapons take you from competent to good or good to great, line play and QB take you from hell to competent and up. Look to MIA, they are LOADED with weapons, 2 top WRs, like 4 homerun RBs.... their line is pretty bad, they started the year with a decent QB... their offense was mediocre to below average because the line was bad.... their QB got hurt and they plummetted into the core of the earth.
When did those guys play with weapons like they have now, and were terrible? In the seasons Darnold played significant time, these were the leading receivers:
Darnold
2018: Robbie Chosen, Chris Herndon, Quincy Enunwa
2019: Crowder, Chosen and the corpse of Demaryius Thomas (RIP)
2020: Crowder, Berrios, Herndon
2021: He went to Carolina, the team started 3-0 Darnold had a 99 QBR, almost 900 yards, 3tds, 1int), and then CMC got hurt and they lost 4 of their next 5. Then CMC came back for a game and Darnold got benched/hurt, and they went 0-5 under Cam Newton.
Mayfield
2018: Jarvis Landry, Njoku, Calloway
2019: OBJ, Landry
2020: OBJ, Landry, new head coach, Chubb, Kareem Hunt (best season of Mayfield's career)
2021: Landry/OBJ/Hunt play a total of 26 games, and Mayfield sucks again
2022: He spends parts of the season with 2 different teams after their QB's went down
2023: Goes to TB and puts up 4,000 yards, 26tds, 10ints
Geno Smith started 5 games in 6 years before Seattle brought him off their bench when they dumped Wilson, threw him out there with Metcalf/Lockett/Walker and he went crazy, leading the NFL in comp% and putting up a 100+ rating. That was just two years ago with the same personnel they have now, so this season is a jump from last season, but not a big jump for what they've done, and as you point out, I think last season had more to do with locker room/coaching issues than anything else.
Miami has a lot of weapons, but we're also comparing apples and hand grenades when we talk about Baker/Darnold/Geno and those guys playing with weapons vs. Tyler Huntley or Skylar Thompson. Baker was the #1 overall pick, Darnold was the #3 overall pick and Geno was 39th overall. They are talented QB's who weren't put in good positions at all, whereas Skylar Thompson was a 7th rounder taken 247th overall and Huntley was an undrafted free agent who Baltimore brought in assuming he could just run like Lamar when/if Lamar got hurt.
I'm not saying lines don't matter. Far from it. I don't think anybody could succeed behind this Pats offensive line. Been saying that for 3 years now, but you also need weapons. Ground and pound and keep your QB upright for a couple hundred yards isn't a strategy. You have to be able to stretch the field, you have to have at least a couple of guys who can turn a 10 yard gain into a 30-40 yarder on occasion. We've got none of that and haven't for years, and now we have a really fucking shitty line (maybe the worst I've ever seen) to go along with it. The good news is that if Drake Maye can show literally anything with this group, it would be pretty strong evidence that he's the real deal. That's the only hope left for this season (well, aside from losing games and getting better draft pick spots as a result)
In short, yes. I think they should give young guys a lot of snaps at positions in which they lack entrenched starters.
Yep, and to think Wolf and Mayo would fix it all in year 1 was a fantasy. BB and Co. couldn't fix it over the past 4 seasons.
Of course one potential problem is.... while Bill was an averagish GM (and those get fired after a couple rough drafts), he was an elite coach. So the team this year may be (probably is) more talented on paper.... and it'll likely perform worse, because you don't have one of the best defensive gameplanners, scheme creators and adjustment makers in league history out there, so the D is taking a step back.
A comment from AVP that I think was interesting. He mentioned that with Andrews out, Brissett is going to take on more pre-snap responsibilties.
Presumably that means he will now call the protection adjustments. If so, I think more indication that Maye is going to sit longer. A rookie has enough issues without having him call the protections instead of the center.
Presumably that means he will now call the protection adjustments. If so, I think more indication that Maye is going to sit longer. A rookie has enough issues without having him call the protections instead of the center.
Interesting. I have been kind of half-waiting for Mayo to announce a switch in QBs and citing the fact that to date Maye has taken many, many more snaps from the backup C than Brissett has.
Two amazing posts right here.
The only place we're seeing improvement on the field in execution is special teams, which is material. And not just that we replaced a kicker. Coverage units have been stellar. Otherwise execution has taken a downturn if anything, and it's impossible to unpack whether the roster is actually worse from the dropoff from GOAT coaching. Roster could actually be better. Transition mode, lack of continuity in an of itself can cause the types of communication and technique gaffes that we've seen on defense in games 2-4.
FWIW, one of the reasons why Nate Tice was higher on Maye than Daniels or Williams as a QB prospect was Maye had that responsibility in college. Now I'm sure NFL defenses are a lot more sophisticated than the ones he faced in the ACC, but he wouldn't be completely inexperienced in handling changing protections if/when they put him on the field.
After this from Breer this morning and the game today, I have to think we’re ready to start discussing this on a week by week basis. I’m going 50-50 for Week 6.
View: https://twitter.com/savagesports_/status/1842919877331603755?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ
View: https://twitter.com/savagesports_/status/1842919877331603755?s=46&t=11SXTvIYT-tl8b6e7iEUVQ
During the penultimate drive in the 4th, Zolak said this is where the Pats need Maye, as both zippier passer and with-legs playmaker. That he continues to sit confirms they're tanking.
Is there a group of people in any other human endeavor that gets treated with as much kid gloves as NFL QBs? I don't see this in any other sport. "Better not play the talented top 3 pick in the NBA or he could be ruined forever". These guys aren't made of sugar.
Well notably top 3 NBA picks don't get slammed into the ground if their teammates suck. (Though also in the NBA there is a lot of discussion about signing a bunch of vets to surround your rookie because really bad young teams often develop bad habits that make players worse).
If he's not already the best QB on the team then it's going to be a long rebuild. Brissett is slow to read, slow to deliver, has poor accuracy, a weak arm, and can't make plays with his legs.
Are you asking if there are such things as interns or apprenticeships in other professions?
Because I’m fairly sure they exist.
You asked an extraordinarily obtuse question. I gave you your answer.
Now you may not like the answer, but you’re beginning to read more and more like a child who’s pouting because they didn’t get what they wanted for Christmas.
If he's not already the best QB on the team then it's going to be a long rebuild. Brissett is slow to read, slow to deliver, has poor accuracy, a weak arm, and can't make plays with his legs.
FWIW, lots of NBA teams draft really young players with +athleticism and +talent and then don't play them in the NBA right away because they won't be able to hold their own and it'll mess with their development. This is why most teams have 2-3 recent draft picks in the GLeague or playing in Europe.
The guys who have the athleticism to be in the top 20% of players in the NBA are usually relatively obvious at a young age. And you want to get their drafts before someone else, if you can help it. But that often means drafting them before they're ready for the league.
Well, since you asked:
#1 pick Macklin Celebrini was on track to make his NHL debut with the Sharks, but he got hurt in the final preseason game, and status for the start of the season is unknown.
#2 pick Artyom Levshunov is starting the year on injured reserve, and will likely play most of the season in the AHL. To be fair, he is a defenseman, who often take longer to develop.
#3 pick Becket Sennecke broke his foot and expected to miss at least 2 months.
#4 pick Cayden LIndstrom is injured, but is expected to play for his junior team for the season when he is healthy.
If he was struggling in practice I have a feeling we'd be hearing about it because they'd be justifying their development approach. We either hear good things or nothing at all, which is positive as far as I'm concerned. They clearly have some kind of "plan" they want to adhere to with Brissett. It seems like a bad one. Three rookie QBs are starting and improving in real time. This really doesn't have to be so tortured. Put him in and game plan accordingly. Build him up over several weeks. Maybe by week 12 or something he's letting it rip and you get some optimism for '25. I don't think I can build up any enthusiasm to watch another Brissett game and the casual fans definitely are out on the year already. That's not the measuring stick, obviously, but it's a result of the team playing incompetent, unwatchable games. Over time it's also going to affect the players.
Daniels has won 4 games. Williams and Nix have won 3 each. It’s a joke that Maye isn’t playing.
We knew Daniels was likely going to be good right out of the gate. He was the most pro ready of the QBs. I’m admittedly surprised at Nix.
If Maybe was with any of those teams, I believe he's starting and likely having similar success. But the Bears, Commanders, and even the Bronco's have a better O-line, weapons, or both. Comparing QB's when they have 10 different players around them is kind of pointless.
I like the use of wins, a stat that has no bearing on QB play generally... which I assume you did because only 1 of those guys is playing at a high level. Bo Nix won a game where he set a record for futility.
But even beyond that...... Mac Jones had a bunch of wins his rookie year.... how much did that help his long term development? How about Kenny Pickett?
Wins aren't a QB stat, and starting right away doesn't seem to have much if any correlation with long-term success.
Bo Nix has had one good game. He has done absolutely nothing and to say that he is in any way successful is not very kind to successful NFL quarterbacks. I can’t believe we are trying to judge quarterbacks after five games. Have we not learned anything from Mac Jones?
The point isn’t about the wins, it’s that clearly those teams are ruining their rookie QBs by sending them out there, and in fact they are also winning games.
I mean if that's the point it's a stupid one. Players are not the same, teams are not the same, and the benefit/risk of playing guys early is complicated and both approaches have had successes and failures. The other QBs in this draft have no bearing on Drake Maye and what is the best approach to his development, any more than Sam Darnold or Josh Rosen had on Lamar
It's why you don't see a lot of top draft picks playing in MLB the April after they get drafted. Drake needs some seasoning and to build confidence that he can play at this level. He's young and inexperienced for his class. They'll let him loose soon enough. I'm glad the Pats are racking up some Ls and building draft capital.
What about a hybrid approach with Maye. Start working him into games, give him 3-4 series next game and go from there. They need to start getting him into games and if they aren't comfortable handing the reigns completely, they should script a few series every game for him.
If they are really worried about the line and pressure, and they should be with a 40%+ pressure rate, then this is the right answer. Have a package of plays he is prepared to run each week and give him even 1 or 2 series so that he can benefit from some game experience.
FWIW, Reiss/Schefty think this could be the week. Reiss pointing out how Mayo's QB answers have changed compared to prior weeks. Of course, that could be Mayo's usual inconsistencies.
View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1843289481321079292
View: https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter/status/1843289481321079292
I mentioned it in the other thread (by accident thought I was in this tab), week 7 always made a lot of sense.
Week 6 vs the Texans is.... not ideal.
However... half the local papers plus the Athletic wrote stories today about how bad Mayo is as a coach, so he might be feeling the panic/heat and put Maye in earlier.
Week 6 vs the Texans is.... not ideal.
However... half the local papers plus the Athletic wrote stories today about how bad Mayo is as a coach, so he might be feeling the panic/heat and put Maye in earlier.
I don't see much of a difference between week 6 and 7 other than opponent. I haven't watched a ton of Houston but their defense seems decent but it's not the '86 Bears. The oline seemed to get through yesterday unscathed, so ostensibly they should be starting the same 5 guys next week that they started yesterday.
This week seems fine to me. It's a home game and they were home this week so a more comfortable environment and they aren't dealing with any travel issues like coming back from the west coast or traveling to London.
This week seems fine to me. It's a home game and they were home this week so a more comfortable environment and they aren't dealing with any travel issues like coming back from the west coast or traveling to London.
Opponent and neutral field basically.
HOU is good with a complex D, and you inevitably draw comparisons to Stroud, plus a restless home crowd when you're likely down big.
JAX is a dogshit team with bad coaching a mediocre defense, and you play in London where the crowd is not going to be an issue.