I think it’s really going about as good as you could hope for. Only thing better would be if he was paired with some hot shit offensive coach but your OC seems fine. Nothing exciting but not bad.
Maye-day Every Day
- Thread starter RedOctober3829
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If we had a choice between a guy they thought could develop Maye and a guy that could call a great game, I'd go with the first option.
#Rams HC Sean McVay was very complimentary of #Patriots rookie QB Drake Maye: “He looks like a stud… You can see the impact that he has on his teammates. The way people talk about him here. He looks like he’s gonna be a special player for a long time and he gave us fits today.”
“It was fun to watch [Drake Maye] play today. He’s going to be a really good player for a long time.” Matthew Stafford with high praise for the opposing rookie QB today
“It was fun to watch [Drake Maye] play today. He’s going to be a really good player for a long time.” Matthew Stafford with high praise for the opposing rookie QB today
I mean, ideally the QB coach would do the former and the offensive coordinator the latter. It shouldn't be an either/or.
I think AVP does both fine. I think people want sexy offense on tape that our personnel can't execute. When you try to do things without taking into account your personnel you get CHI this year, or MIA when Tua is out.
Yeah I have no major complaints with AVP. We obviously grade Maye on a curve in part because of how awful his supporting cast is, and AVP should get the same grace (unless we think there is lots of unrealized potential here...I do not). Additionally, SOMEONE in the coaching staff gets at least partial credit for how Drake Maye has played. He was the 3rd QB taken, super young and thought to be the least pro-ready QB among the top picks, yet here he is looking really good. He's not Manning, Luck or Lawrence (lol) who came into the league ready to be a star from day 1, if the coaching staff is doing just one thing right, at least it's this. Might as well credit AVP.
I don't expect a sexy offense with the players we have, but there's thing he does tactically which drive me up the wall. Drake brings the team down the field to 1st and goal on LAR 5 and we run 3 times in a row resulting in a field goal from LAR 7. Quite simply, Fuck that.
He does sometimes get conservative I agree, though some of that is he has a conservative HC, that should be a 4 play cycle, that it is 3 tells me there is a dictate to be conservative. I don't think AVP is amazing, he;s just a solidly okay OC. You could win a superbowl with him, certainly you can win playoff games, and to me that's a lot more than I think is true of the rest of the staff so far.
What I like about Van Pelt is that he’s been letting Maye run a full playbook (to the extent our subpar OL and receivers can support that, anyway). He’s letting Maye take downfield shots, run when plays break down, etc.
I have a hunch that if BB was still here, and Maye was the QB, we’d see a much bigger set of handcuffs on Maye. And that wouldn’t be good to accelerate his development.
I have a hunch that if BB was still here, and Maye was the QB, we’d see a much bigger set of handcuffs on Maye. And that wouldn’t be good to accelerate his development.
We're not going to hear anything on this unless and until someone signs, but WRs know this guy will get them the ball. It's a selling point.
Will be interesting to see if Daboll or someone shakes loose this year if the Krafts' eyes start wandering for a more high profile OC. I actually think AVP has been pretty good since Maye got the reins. But is he the guy you want to build with 5+ years?
I'm pretty sure that will be the case, in part because I think there is no chance Kraft is willing to admit that the biggest problem in the coaching staff is his favorite son.
I think AVP can be your coordinator long term just fine. In part because.... if you bring in DaBoll, he's not gonna be here 5 years unless you fire Mayo and promote him. It's always the concern with a defensive head coach, if your OC is good and under 70 he's going to get HC interviews.
Maye has the tools to be the second-best QB in Pats history. Bledsoe had the cannon arm, and the size, but obviously not the mobility, and he really didn't have the touch on the shorter passes, either. He never finished higher than 6th in QB rating, which he did only once.
If Maye blossoms this season and next, AVP will get sone sniffs to be a HC, because he's gonna get credit for developing Maye.
This kid is already the best player on the team, it just sucks that at 22 he's asked to consistently perform like it for them to have any shot at winning.
And maybe, in fact, he has developed Maye. None of us know how this process is going. Maybe AVP does deserve a ton of credit for Maye.
Maye is now 14th in the league in QBR and slotted at 19th between Justin Herbert and Matt Stafford in the EPA/Play + CPOE (completion percentage over expected) composite. Brissett with the same supporting cast ranked 32nd of 36 and 33rd of 35 respectively in the same stats. It's kind of ridiculous for a rookie to provide such a substantial increase in production over an established vet who has been an adequate starter at various points in his career. The supporting cast is awful, but Maye is performing with it.
Maybe this was your point but I would argue that these two things are highly related. The pass pro stats look better because Maye is playing at a very high level in terms of getting the ball out quickly and moving in the pocket to avoid hits.
Its shocking how often the defense does not blitz, but there is still a rusher on Maye within 1.5-2 seconds, and yet he is still getting the ball away somewhere.
I was a proponent of holding out Maye a little longer hoping the OL would stabilize. But maybe it will work the opposite: he's learning to move and get rid of the ball, and when he does have more time it will be like a hitter taking off the batting donut.
I'm starting to get to the point with Maye that I think having a stud WR is better for the offense than a stud OT. I think they can get by with an average OL (gotta get THERE first, of course). The Pats currently have an average rushing game, even with this poor OL. Maye has shown that he can really move the ball, on the ground and in the air. I'm picturing a true stud WR1 along with their current receiving corps, and I think the offense would have a chance to be dynamic, even with an average OL.
You can get by with either an average OL/stud WRs or stud OL/average WRs, but you can't have both be average or below.
So with average RBs, a tick above average TEs, a below average WR group, and a really bad OL, while playing a string of pretty good defenses, Drake Maye has done a pretty darned good job.
Truth.
I think I'm leaning towards your desire to prioritize WR over OT. We're seeing that Maye can elevate a crummy OL to merely below average by his quick decision making/release and ability to scramble. But the Rams game clearly revealed how much the below average WR corps is limiting his big play ability. Give Maye wideouts like Kupp and Nacua and, my oh my, we'd be a machine with all that YAC.
This isn't to say Wolf doesn't need to upgrade the OL. He does, full stop. But all things being equal, if we have the chance to land a truly elite WR I'd say go for it.
Maye's five games as a starter (where he played the whole game):
vs Hou: 20-33, 243 yds, 3 td, 2 int, 5 rushes, 38 yds, 1 fum
at Jax: 26-37, 276 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 3 rushes, 18 yds
at Ten: 29-41, 206 yds, 1 td, 2 int, 8 rushes, 95 yds
at Chi: 15-25, 184 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 4 rushes, 24 yds
vs LAR: 30-40, 282 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 3 rushes, 27 yds, 1 fum
TOT: 120-176 (68.2%), 1,191 yds, 6.8 y/a, 9 td, 6 int, 23 rushes, 202 yds, 8.8 y/a, 2 fum
Pats averaging 19.0 points and 318.2 yards a game. Those would rank #23 (points) and #24 (yards), where right now they're ranked, in total, #30 (points) and #31 (yards).
In the games where Brissett either started or came in to play most of the game (vs NYJ), the Pats averaged 14.5 points and 250.3 yards. Those would rank #32 (points) and #32 (yards).
So replacing Brissett with Maye has improved the offense thusly:
+5.5 points
+67.9 yards
He's improved their rankings thusly:
+9 spots points
+8 spots yards
Essentially ONE change produced this effect on the offense. Now the defense has given up more points, in part because of Maye's turnovers. His turnovers in the Houston game basically handed like 21 points to Houston alone. So that has to be factored in as well. But from just a purely offensive standpoint, the difference between having Brissett at QB and having Maye at QB is...substantial.
vs Hou: 20-33, 243 yds, 3 td, 2 int, 5 rushes, 38 yds, 1 fum
at Jax: 26-37, 276 yds, 2 td, 0 int, 3 rushes, 18 yds
at Ten: 29-41, 206 yds, 1 td, 2 int, 8 rushes, 95 yds
at Chi: 15-25, 184 yds, 1 td, 1 int, 4 rushes, 24 yds
vs LAR: 30-40, 282 yds, 2 td, 1 int, 3 rushes, 27 yds, 1 fum
TOT: 120-176 (68.2%), 1,191 yds, 6.8 y/a, 9 td, 6 int, 23 rushes, 202 yds, 8.8 y/a, 2 fum
Pats averaging 19.0 points and 318.2 yards a game. Those would rank #23 (points) and #24 (yards), where right now they're ranked, in total, #30 (points) and #31 (yards).
In the games where Brissett either started or came in to play most of the game (vs NYJ), the Pats averaged 14.5 points and 250.3 yards. Those would rank #32 (points) and #32 (yards).
So replacing Brissett with Maye has improved the offense thusly:
+5.5 points
+67.9 yards
He's improved their rankings thusly:
+9 spots points
+8 spots yards
Essentially ONE change produced this effect on the offense. Now the defense has given up more points, in part because of Maye's turnovers. His turnovers in the Houston game basically handed like 21 points to Houston alone. So that has to be factored in as well. But from just a purely offensive standpoint, the difference between having Brissett at QB and having Maye at QB is...substantial.
To be fair, this also coincided with some OL changes/stability, most notably Michael Jordan. I think it can be attributed to both with Maye getting 80%+ of the credit.
It is questionable whether the line is in any way significantly improved.
Comparing the 6 Brissett games (including the Jets game in there, which is a little wonky because Maye did some nice things before getting injured) with the 5 Maye games:
Brisset:
- Cin: 39/170, 7 QB hits
- Sea: 36/185, 8 QB hits
- NYJ: 15/78, 15 QB hits
- SF: 24/73, 10 QB hits
- Mia: 19/151, 9 QB hits
- NYJ: 31/112, 4 QB hits
TOT: 164 rushes, 769 yds, 4.69 y/a, 53 QB hits (8.8/g)
Maye:
- Hou: 26/82 (but Maye had 5/38 of that), 8 QB hits
- Jax: 15/38 (Maye had 3/18 of that), 3 QB hits
- Ten: 20/110 (Maye had 8/95 of that), 9 QB hits
- Chi: 35/144 (Maye had 4/24 of that), 7 QB hits
- LAR: 30/125 (Maye had 3/27 of that), 5 QB hits
TOT: 126 rushes, 499 yds, 3.96 y/a, 32 QB hits (6.4/g)
But in the Maye games, Maye himself scrambled 26 times for 202 yds (7.8 y/a), meaning the real ballcarriers had 100 rushes for 297 yds (2.97 y/a). In other words, the run blocking in the Maye games has been fantastically awful. Yes fewer QB hits (less pressure) put on Maye, but only by a couple of hits a game. Yes pass pro has been better with Maye in there, but how much of that is Maye delivering the ball faster?
Long story short, while I'll agree that the OL has been a little better with Maye, clearly in the run game it's been much, much worse, and also in pass protection it's only been marginally better, and much of that improvement is due to Maye himself.
It's Drake Maye carrying this offense, plain and simple.
I remember looking at these charts for the previous #10. and there were no greens to one side of the field (I think the left). So in that vein, the distribution is really encouraging.
I'm torn on this. Maye clearly gets the ball out more quickly and cleanly than Brissett did (or Mac did), and that helps the line. The early returns on him also suggest that he'll be one of those QBs that you don't want to blitz too often because he will find the open guy. Still, Maye's best success has been in the short game in part because he doesn't have the time for slower-developing plays to develop. Allowing him to spend more time in the pocket and improving the running game are both things that would help the WRs we do have.
Is there a real world way to trade down from very high first round pick, gain an excess high 2nd round pick, then trade two 2nds to get back into the first round? Or is this just a concoction of the mock draft fantasy world?
Secondly what do we know about the upcoming strength of the OT and WR classes? I read that the tackle class was only 2 players deep, but what about the WR class?
Long winded way of saying I think we need to be investing in both. And of course there are defensive needs too (DL and CB). The talent on the team is notably thin and badly in need of a really good draft haul - or two.
Secondly what do we know about the upcoming strength of the OT and WR classes? I read that the tackle class was only 2 players deep, but what about the WR class?
Long winded way of saying I think we need to be investing in both. And of course there are defensive needs too (DL and CB). The talent on the team is notably thin and badly in need of a really good draft haul - or two.
You can argue the hardest thing to do in sports is develop a QB. Given Maye's success I would have to think they aren't going to bring in another OC (which is an excellent way to screw up a QB).
I can't imagine AVP is going anywhere. Nor should he. Even if there's better options available, the consistency is so important.
Right now the defense is a far greater problem than the offense. Only twice all season have they given up fewer than 20 points.
I know their rankings right now are:
- Offense: #30 points, #31 yards
- Defense: #18 points, #20 yards
But the offense has improved a ton with Maye in there. Other than the Bears game, they really can't stop anyone.
I know their rankings right now are:
- Offense: #30 points, #31 yards
- Defense: #18 points, #20 yards
But the offense has improved a ton with Maye in there. Other than the Bears game, they really can't stop anyone.
I was very impressed with the creativity of some of the plays they ran on Sunday. He is definitely playing to Maye's strengths.
Yeah--if you watch any of the breakdown vids online, you hear a lot about how the play design looks really good in places. Love to see what happens with more talent around AVP as well.
Can't speak to the depth of the draft but the top end of the draft doesn't seem great for either position.
The top 2 OL are Will Campbell from LSU and Kelvin Banks Jr from Texas. Both are currently playing tackle but a lot of what I've read suggests they may end up being guards in the NFL. I don't think there's a plug and play prospect like a Joe Alt this year. Conerly from Oregon is next as a T but he seems to have Amarius Mims vibes, very raw.
The top 3 WR are Travis Hunter, Tet McMillan and Luther Burden. Hunter is a unique two way player and at this point is considered the top prospect in the draft by many. Most evaluators seem to believe he's an elite corner and a good WR. How much he ends up playing at WR in the NFL is a mystery. He plays 100+ snaps a game at Colorado now, it's crazy. Will he be able to do that at the NFL? Or will he be a corner that you can give 5-10 offensive snaps a game? There is value in him as a corner so I wouldn't rule him out.
Burden plays for Missouri and is having a down year production wise, he's only got like 600 receiving yards. That might be system/QB related but feels a bit dicey to draft a guy with limited production as a #1.
McMillan is becoming my WR binky. Plays for Arizona and is a monster, 6'5. Seems like a prototypical X and he's putting up huge numbers on a bad team.
Agreed. If there's a knock on AVP it's his use of the running game on early downs and in red zone situations, but that's defensible for a myriad of reasons. Nobodies perfect, and he's had a few head scratchers, but overall he's been perfectly fine in his role.
WR class is well behind last years class. One likely top 10 pick in Tet McMillan, a Drake London type big body X. Another top 10 pick in Travis Hunter but he is likely to play CB where he is elite though could probably play some WR as well in certain packages. After those two there are some upside players but they all have question marks, will likely be end of 1st rd picks.
I'd rather see NE get uber aggressive in FA and sign Higgins and Dionte Johnson. Address T and Defense in the draft, very deep draft for DL both edge and DT. There will be a lot of competition for Higgins but he can be a true #1. Dionte Johnson should have a suppressed market but he can still get open and should have a few more good seasons and would fit well as the Flanker in NE.
Whatever they do they need to give Maye a bigger body to throw to downfield than Pop Douglas who has one of the smallest catch radiuses I've ever seen. Pop has utility but not as a downfield threat.
The ont tic that I see from AVP that I'd like changed is that when it's 2nd and short, he always tries a run or other low reward play just to pick up the first. 2nd and short situations are opportunities to go long or get a chunk play; going forward I hope AVP can break out of the "just get the 1st down" mentality a bit more.
Agree. I said somewhere else that the real problem on this team is the defensive coaching. I think OC and downward are probably doing what they can with subpar talent at most positions, and coupled with Maye looking impressive, it’s kept them in a lot of games. I have no problem bringing back AVP, even if he may not be the guy to unlock Maye’s top potential long-term. Keep him here 3-4 years, get a good foundation under Maye, and then find the guy that can take him to that next level if AVP isn’t it (which I don’t think he is, but I’m open to it).
The Athletic had a "silver linings for bad teams" segment today. It's Robert Mays with SI's Conor Orr. As expected the Patriots was easy.... Drake Maye.
But also both big fans of AVP's job this year, and think that the pairing of QB/playcaller going forward is a big advantage.
Mays did note that despite all the missing guys, he thinks the defense has been a disappointment.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MqwbiSfrg0
But also both big fans of AVP's job this year, and think that the pairing of QB/playcaller going forward is a big advantage.
Mays did note that despite all the missing guys, he thinks the defense has been a disappointment.
View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5MqwbiSfrg0
I listened to that Athletic podcast. They were very impressed with Drake and AVP. I think AVP has done a great job. He has had to scheme around this bottom of the league offensive line, they don't do anything well. I am convinced that if they had a league average O-line, they would be averaging 25+ points a game with Maye.
We really need fewer variations on Maye, Mayo and Mays. My brain is beginning to hurt.
The Ringer guys (Kapadia, Ruiz, Lee) gushed over Maye too on their recap pod after Sunday's games. Haven't really heard a negative take either locally or nationally. Didn't hear the whole segment but even Bedard had Maye as his #1 UP.
Wholeheartedly agree, and I was a critic of the hiring. Maye is coming along as well as we could have projected and he's doing a fine job with an offense that's completely bereft of talent. The in game decisions by the HC and the defensive coaching/play calling are the main issues with the team, AVP has performed.