Miami Heat: Pat Riley's Grease Fire

bowiac

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Devizier said:
If James goes back to Cleveland, any decent general manager should be able to add one extra great player. I don't see it happening tho.
Yeah, I guess that's the case for Cleveland. If Cleveland can manage to sell Minnesota on Anthony Bennett not yet being a bust, then some kind of Bennett, Waiters, and 3 years of picks might be enough for Love? Maybe? Of course, Kyrie, Love, LeBron is a sort of similar trio to Wade, Bosh, LeBron, but whatever.
 

Blacken

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Irving/Love/LeBron is younger and better than Wade/Bosh/LeBron, though. Irving brings a lot that Wade even when he wasn't the third man in Weekend at Bernie's didn't. Bosh is a better defender but Love's range is huge if you find a marginally competent 5 somewhere.

I think Cleveland is more likely than Houston just because I can't see him going to the West, but right now at least it doesn't sound like he's going back to Miami. (Could change tomorrow, of course, etc. etc.)
 

Mugthis

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I think people are overstating the East-West thing a bit. If he stays in the East, he'll have a much easier path to the finals, but he'll have a tough finals matchup. If he goes to the right team in the West, he'll still be favored to get to the finals, albeit at less odds than in the East, but he'll have a much easier opponent. 
 
A LeBron-led team in Golden State, LAC, Houston, Dallas, or Phoenix isn't going to lose in the first round, will be heavily favored in the 2nd most likely, and will have a tough matchup in the WCF, and then an easier one in the finals. Is that much different than an easy first and 2nd round in the East, and then facing the Bulls, Pacers, Raptors, or Wizards in the ECF? Remember, any team he signs with in the East (besides the Bulls) won't be nearly as good as one of the West teams.
 
Here's some hypothetical numbers.
 
LeBron returns to the Heat or goes to Cleveland. You'd probably think his teams would have a roughly 95% at winning in the first round, 90% in the 2nd, maybe 65% in the ECF, then 50% in the F. .95*.90*.70*.50 = ~30% chance at a title.
 
Westcoast LeBron:
 
.85*.80*.60*.80  = ~35% chance at a title
 
If I were LeBron, I would just focus on what team would be the best, regardless of competition. When you're as good as LeBron right now and have some help, there are only going to be 1 or 2 teams that have a real chance any way, and you'll probably have to face them regardless. 
 

Cellar-Door

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Mugthis said:
I think people are overstating the East-West thing a bit. If he stays in the East, he'll have a much easier path to the finals, but he'll have a tough finals matchup. If he goes to the right team in the West, he'll still be favored to get to the finals, albeit at less odds than in the East, but he'll have a much easier opponent. 
 
A LeBron-led team in Golden State, LAC, Houston, Dallas, or Phoenix isn't going to lose in the first round, will be heavily favored in the 2nd most likely, and will have a tough matchup in the WCF, and then an easier one in the finals. Is that much different than an easy first and 2nd round in the East, and then facing the Bulls, Pacers, Raptors, or Wizards in the ECF? Remember, any team he signs with in the East (besides the Bulls) won't be nearly as good as one of the West teams.
 
Here's some hypothetical numbers.
 
LeBron returns to the Heat or goes to Cleveland. You'd probably think his teams would have a roughly 95% at winning in the first round, 90% in the 2nd, maybe 65% in the ECF, then 50% in the F. .95*.90*.70*.50 = ~30% chance at a title.
 
Westcoast LeBron:
 
.85*.80*.60*.80  = ~35% chance at a title
 
If I were LeBron, I would just focus on what team would be the best, regardless of competition. When you're as good as LeBron right now and have some help, there are only going to be 1 or 2 teams that have a real chance any way, and you'll probably have to face them regardless. 
Problem with that math is you pulled it out of nowhere. You really think a team Lebron went to would be an 80% favorite over one of: OKC, LAC, SA? I don't, I don't at all.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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LeBron, Curry and Thompson (assuming he doesn't have to move if they acquire James) would be insane.  How do you defend that?  You want to double LeBron?  Good luck because either Curry or Thompson will destroy you from the outside.  Double Curry?  Muhahahahahaha.   A starting five of Bogut-James-Iguodala -Thompson-Curry with Green and Livingston off the bench would be like 9/11 times a thousand...
 

Mugthis

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Cellar-Door said:
Problem with that math is you pulled it out of nowhere. You really think a team Lebron went to would be an 80% favorite over one of: OKC, LAC, SA? I don't, I don't at all.
 
I do not.
 

wutang112878

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DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
LeBron, Curry and Thompson (assuming he doesn't have to move if they acquire James) would be insane.  How do you defend that?  You want to double LeBron?  Good luck because either Curry or Thompson will destroy you from the outside.  Double Curry?  Muhahahahahaha.   A starting five of Bogut-James-Iguodala -Thompson-Curry with Green and Livingston off the bench would be like 9/11 times a thousand...
 
I agree offensively, but defensively that team is still flawed.  Their efficiency numbers are a bit misleading.  I am always skeptical of teams that have great effeciency ratings but are also ranked very high in pace because the unorthodox style because opposing teams have a tough time keeping up.  Its something that works in the regular season on a 'playing one game against them' basis because teams cant adjust, but in the post-season where much more time is spent on strategy, defense and the game slows down suddenly they dont look as good. 
 
Take this year, during the regular season (6th in pace) their ORTG/DRTG was 107.5/102.6 but against the Clippers it was 110.5/115.1 and the crazy pace and circumstances around that series was just bizarre.  Or take 12/13 their regular season (4th in pace) ORTG/DRTG was 106.4/105.5 but once they faced a great team in the Spurs it was 102.7/106.7
 

DannyDarwinism

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wutang112878 said:
 
I agree offensively, but defensively that team is still flawed.  
 
What?  They'd be starting one of the best defensive centers in the league and two of the best, most versatile perimeter defenders.  And by most appearances, Klay is a plus defender.  Curry's a weak link, but the other four guys would easily compensate.  That would absolutely be a top three defensive team.
 
Iggy and Draymond Green were #1 and #2 in defensive real plus minus last year at small forward.  Bogut was #4 for centers.  Then you add Lebron.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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wutang112878 said:
 
Take this year, during the regular season (6th in pace) their ORTG/DRTG was 107.5/102.6 but against the Clippers it was 110.5/115.1 and the crazy pace and circumstances around that series was just bizarre.  Or take 12/13 their regular season (4th in pace) ORTG/DRTG was 106.4/105.5 but once they faced a great team in the Spurs it was 102.7/106.7
 
Not to further derail this thread - its a civil discussion of the Miami Heat after all - but there is context for each of those disparities you cite.  While I will absolutely concede that regular season offensive and defensive ratings can be misleading, the fact is that the Warriors were without one of their best defenders (Bogut) versus the Clippers.  Against the Spurs a season ago,  David Lee (who I think we can all agree is a poor defender) was out forcing the Warriors to go with hybrid line-ups which then included two rookies in Barnes and Green.  So I would argue that these series aren't representative of what the Warriors are capable of at full strength.
 
As DD says, LeBron is a very good defender and in this scheme, he'd be asked to do a lot less than he was in Miami.  I think that squad with him would be a defensive juggernaut and would be very difficult to defend.  It won't happen though because while the smoke seems to indicate that LeBron is leaving the Heat, he will likely go with another reconstituted big three elsewhere such as Houston or Chicago.  
 
If James departs Miami, the one thing I am deeply concerned about is how the long-suffering, die-hard Heat fans react.  They may be upset for a long time...like five minutes or something.
 

wutang112878

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DannyDarwinism said:
 
What?  They'd be starting one of the best defensive centers in the league and two of the best, most versatile perimeter defenders.  And by most appearances, Klay is a plus defender.  Curry's a weak link, but the other four guys would easily compensate.  That would absolutely be a top three defensive team.
 
Iggy and Draymond Green were #1 and #2 in defensive real plus minus last year at small forward.  Bogut was #4 for centers.  Then you add Lebron.
 
My bad, I completely forgot that Bogut was on that team, you are right. 
 
DeJesus Built My Hotrod said:
 
Not to further derail this thread - its a civil discussion of the Miami Heat after all - but there is context for each of those disparities you cite.  While I will absolutely concede that regular season offensive and defensive ratings can be misleading, the fact is that the Warriors were without one of their best defenders (Bogut) versus the Clippers.  Against the Spurs a season ago,  David Lee (who I think we can all agree is a poor defender) was out forcing the Warriors to go with hybrid line-ups which then included two rookies in Barnes and Green.  So I would argue that these series aren't representative of what the Warriors are capable of at full strength.
 
Totally correct that context is important, but I'd make the case that if 1 player can have that much of an impact defensively then their team defense really isnt that good and their 4th ranking in DRTG is a complete mirage.  Take Chicago as an example, I am pretty sure they could be without Noah for an extended period of time and while they would not be as good, they would still be a good defense.  I attribute that to Tibs with his system and dedication to the defensive side of the ball.  The Warriors are not just not in that category of defense.
 

ElUno20

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The market is really drying up on the heat with my clipps swiping up hawes
 

RedOctober3829

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deep inside Guido territory
Alive?

Writer Tim Reynolds tweeted a pic of Gilbert's plane at the Hollywood, FL airport. A Cleveland sports media member also says Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on the plane as well.

@AnthonyLimaFAN: Been working on this for two hours but can now confirm from second source that LBJ's friend and former Cav Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on plane
 

bowiac

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RedOctober3829 said:
Alive?

Writer Tim Reynolds tweeted a pic of Gilbert's plane at the Hollywood, FL airport. A Cleveland sports media member also says Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on the plane as well.

@AnthonyLimaFAN: Been working on this for two hours but can now confirm from second source that LBJ's friend and former Cav Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on plane
Sounds like the plane went, but Gilbert did not. Which would make total sense.
 

bowiac

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I'm glad to see college coaching search antics have made their way to the NBA...
 
I'm hoping this culminates in The Decision 2, followed by a long series of ombudsman articles basically saying "oh good god how" at ESPN.com. Or maybe NBC Sports tries to make a splash and outbids them.
 
Either way, here's hoping the Heat break up, and we get a lot of more shady reporting based on retweets of Cleveland based personal trainers with "inside knowledge" of LeBron's thinking.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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RedOctober3829 said:
Probably not today.

@cavsdan: . @LullOnSports:Cavs owner Dan Gilbert is currently en route to south Florida. I am? Sorry folks but enjoying weather in my backyard today
 
Maybe Gilbert has a summer home in FL....
 
RedOctober3829 said:
Alive?

Writer Tim Reynolds tweeted a pic of Gilbert's plane at the Hollywood, FL airport. A Cleveland sports media member also says Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on the plane as well.

@AnthonyLimaFAN: Been working on this for two hours but can now confirm from second source that LBJ's friend and former Cav Zydrunas Ilgauskas was on plane
 
Is Ilgauskas on the plane to tell LBJ that they are going to make sure the Cavs have better players than he was?
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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In addition to plane following, we have this breaking news from a cupcake place in Cleveland - https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=10152505594988955&id=191519613954:
 
Just texting with a friend who is directly tied in with Lebron and his camp, and he swears on his life ‪#‎TheReturn‬ to Cleveland is a done deal. Per his sources, calls have already been made to other current Cavaliers to spread the news. If this is true, and like anything on the internet, take that with a grain of salt... are you ready to get out your old jersey and welcome Lebron home?!?
 
 
This could be Fast Times at Ridgemont High, or it could be Jason Kidd redux.  Stay tuned!
 

Cellar-Door

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knucklecup

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RT @WojYahooNBA: In pursuit of max slot for LeBron James, Cavs searching for team to take Nets' Marcus Thornton in deal to unload Jarrett Jack, sources say.
 

oumbi

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Not as good as cupcakes, but more on what may be a toothsome Miami demise...
 
@WojYahooNBA  18s
In pursuit of max slot for LeBron James, Cavs searching for team to take Nets' Marcus Thornton in deal to unload Jarrett Jack, sources say.
 
[SIZE=12.571428298950195px]Well CRAP!!!!! Knucklecup beat me to this by one minute. Good job KC.[/SIZE]
 

knucklecup

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RT @ESPNSteinLine: ESPN sources say Rockets are "heavily engaged" with Chris Bosh in attempt to get Bosh to leave Heat in free agency. Story hits online soon
 

knucklecup

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RT @Chris_Broussard: I'm not saying LJ to Cavs is done deal or I know 4 a fact; just my gut feeling based on many conversations I've had around this story...

Broussard with another tweet.

You really had to wait until 11 for this?
 

knucklecup

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More Bosh:

RT @ESPNSteinLine: Rockets understand that realistic shot at Bosh depends on LeBron leaving Heat. But they clearly aren't waiting to see what LeBron decides
 

knucklecup

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RT @SamAmicoFSO: I'm told, by multiple sources now, LeBron agent Rich Paul told Cavs he's impressed w what they've done and what they can still do to roster.
 

bowiac

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Gotta love a rumor that includes a CBA violation. Max contract length is 5 years.
 

knucklecup

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RT @stephenasmith: My plan was to wait for @ESPN_FirstTake in the AM. But @SportsCenter has called me for duty. Here I come. Approx 11:30pm. Buckle Up!
 

Ed Hillel

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BigSoxFan said:
Bosh and Houston would be a perfect fit. It would be so awesome if LeBron went to Cleveland, Bosh went to Houston, and Miami was forced to give a decaying Wade a stupid deal just to save face.
Riley would give Wade a 5-year max and immediately retire.
 

DannyDarwinism

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RedOctober3829 said:
 
I think I was duped.  Carry on. 
 
 
And here I was, thinking it totally possible that the beat writer for the Akron Beacon Herald has three tweets and eight followers.
 

knucklecup

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RT @WojYahooNBA: Longer James has gone w/ minimal contact, more unsettled Bosh/Wade have become on Heat future. "They're reading the tea leafs," source says.
 

Ed Hillel

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Tea leafs?

Is now a good time to bring up the NBA rigged draft for LeBron thing?
 

knucklecup

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BigSoxFan said:
Bosh and Houston would be a perfect fit. It would be so awesome if LeBron went to Cleveland, Bosh went to Houston, and Miami was forced to give a decaying Wade a stupid deal just to save face.
This.

Love the Harden, Bosh, Howard trio.

And if it screws over Riley, Wade and the Heat, I'm all for it.

Doubtful we see teams jumping at the bit to be the team who takes back Marcus Thornton and opens up max slot for Lebron.