Michael Sam could be the first openly gay NFL player
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Gunfighter 09 said:
As you mention a bit down your own post -- strong ownership, HC, and a stable leadership (QB & otherwise), and not the cherry-picked factors mentioned above.
The list that includes the Pats, Packers, Seahawks, etc. seems pretty valid to me.
moondog80 said:
I urge you to read the article abs posted on the previous page, which discusses how and why Sam chose to make this public. He came out to teammates BEFORE the 2013 season - where he was voted Player of the Year by his teammates and SEC Defensive Player of the Year by SEC coaches, players and experts.
You hadn't heard of him because you don't follow college football. closely enough Because everyone who does follow things like "best player in the best conference in college football" had heard of this guy.
His motive and sincerity are not really questionable, at least if you've taken the time to read the NYT article or any number of places where Sam's comments about his decision are discussed. He told his Mizzou teammates because he felt that "if anyone had asked me on the street, I would have told them the truth". And once he did come out to his teammates (at a red-state, state-school) they not only kept the issue private but also supported Sam on and off the field and honored him as their best on-field player.
Gay athletes will have to overcome many preconceived and/or prejudiced ideas about who they are and why they are coming out. It will help everyone if we don't guess at motives and instead see if the person has said they have any motives and then judge from there.
Yeah, glad to see someone calling out that stupid post. Lol @ "I'm not questioning his motive or sincerity"--the fuck are you doing then?soxfan121 said:
We tossed alot of "SPAM FILTER" around here, too, until we wisened up. If we learn to stop doing this, so can they.gtg807y said:
Infield Infidel said:
Or he's more mature and experienced and you're still getting him on a rookie contract. Good deal!
singaporesoxfan said:
Good chance he ends up as an NFL LB at 6'2", 255
Right you are. Plus, this provides an occasion for self congratulatory stuff on the part of the fan bases.Gunfighter 09 said:
If you were looking at history -- what actually happened in certain places -- then you might put Baltimore on the list.
Irony in NE -- everything else being equal, BB probably does not draft him because of the distraction factor alone . Indeed he gets drafted here in all likelihood only if he presents a compelling value because other teams have passes and not deemed him worth the trouble.
Disagree on that last part. High motor, high football IQ, and difficult to fit in a traditional system are like the BB draft profile trifecta. He's ranked on the board based on his on field ability and football IQ almost exclusively and if he's available where they have him ranked, they'll pick him.dcmissle said:
MannysDestination said:
Yes. You also wonder how long it would be a distraction for. A few days? A week? After a while, they will get down to football and if Sam's a great player, nobody will care if he's gay.(no matter what team he's on) It's sad they care now but someone has to be the first.
Well, Herm Edwards eliminated any lingering doubts that he's a dumbass. He seems drunk in this interview.
Is anyone concerned that, in the locker room, he won't be able to focus on football with all the temptation?
I hope this sort of stuff stops because it is precisely the kind of thing that could hurt him. He has announced himself as a proud gay man. That is terrific. But it should not serve as a lever to out others. That would be PC run amuck. Every gay player should be entitled to make his own decision about his profile based on his own circumstances.soxhop411 said:
A tweener with high IQ and a great motor - sounds like a Bruschi type who could start off as a STmer and grow into a LB role.MannysDestination said:
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
So when Toucher said "We'll be joined by Michael Sam after the break", he meant "We'll be airing his NYT and/or ESPN segments after the break".
Weak.
Is it wrong that I want the Pats to draft him just for the amazing Belichick press conference where he states that he is only going to talk about football over and over again to a room full of non-football reporters? I just get incredible joy out of people trolling the media and this would be epic.
dcmissle said:
Robert Kraft stated last May he'd welcome a gay player on the team.
BB brought in Tebow last summer despite the distraction factor. If he thinks Sam can play, then I think he'd have no trouble drafting him.
Lose Remerswaal said:
Exactly. Is that (SI) quote suggesting that Sam would be traumatized? b/c I'm guessing he's heard people tossing that word around before. Or does it mean it would make his teammates uncomfortable b/c they could no longer toss around that word--in which case, boo-hoo.
Also, the "football's not ready" line is getting weak. So, when will it be ready? What would make it ready? And who exactly is "football"?
I'm keeping an eye out for when Ben Volin writes about this in the Globe. I thought his piece on the Jonathan Martin/Ritchie Incognito debacle this fall, whole obviously informed by his former gig as a beat writer for the Dolphins, demonstrated an unsettling sympathy for locker room culture. Whether he writes an insightful, balanced piece on this (or sounds like Herm Edwards that can speak in complete sentences) for me will be a solid indication as to whether he's long for this gig.
And what exactly is football not ready for? There are already likely dozens of gay players n the NFL. So, clearly football can handle that part of it. It's people knowing the identity of some of them that's the problem? The ones who truly get outed here are the freaking dinosaurs for being idiots.
soxfan121 said:
Did you miss the part where I said I don't question his motives? I don't, not for a moment. Still, even though it wasn't his intention, it could end up working out well for him, a lot moreso than it would a few years from now for the 17th guy to come out (for whom it will have zero impact). And maybe I'm wrong about this, but am I in the minority for not knowing who he was 24 hours ago? Seems to me that if you're not a skill player, not considered a first round draft talent, and don't play for a high profile school, it's pretty hard to break through as a name to the non-serious college football fan.
Notwithstanding his terrific college career, Sam isn't a good NFL prospect. For every "tweener" who turns into a Tedy Bruschi, there's a dozen who turn into nothing. He's a 4th or 5th rounder on merit, imo -- a marginal player. And regrettably, marginal players who are deemed to be distractions don't tend to get a fair shake.
I hope Peter King is wrong in saying that Sam won't be drafted, but I fear he's right.
I hope Peter King is wrong in saying that Sam won't be drafted, but I fear he's right.
moondog80 said:
I had never heard of him before this morning. I'm not the biggest college football fan in the world but I watch some games and a bunch of bowl games. But I would never know the name of a defensive lineman from Missouri unless he was in the running for the Heisman.
maufman said:
I’m not trying to be a dick, but who cares what your opinion is on where he should be drafted? He’s a SEC Defensive player of the year. Over the last 10 years, here’s the round that the SEC defensive POY was drafted in:
7th round: 0
6th round: 0
5th round: 0
4th round: 0
3rd round: 0
2nd round: 0
1st round: 10
Now, maybe he isn’t a first round talent like his previous 10 predecessors, but there’s no fucking way this kid goes undrafted. He's the best defensive player in the best conference in football. Whether he makes it in the NFL is an entirely different story, but he will be drafted.
maufman said:
I am unsure of this assessment. Every football fan just watched Cliff Avril (6'3", 260) have a massive impact on the Super Bowl as a pass rushing DE. Sam has similar physical dimensions, production in college, was given or nominated for awards and has a mostly clean injury history.
Avril was the 92nd pick in his draft year. Sam, before this news, was showing up in most top 100 prospect lists.
Now, could he measure slow in the 40 or the 3-cone at the Combine? Sure. But up to this point, everything about Sam not only suggests he will be drafted but that he's a prospect that most teams have a "need" for and the potential to fill that need in many teams' defensive schemes.
ETA: It is sad but true that if Sam had called up NFL Expert Peter King and given him this exclusive that King would be singing a different tune. King has earned this level of skepticism and everything he says is suspect when it comes to "Peter King's Sources".
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Best defensive player in the best conference is a bit of a red herring. Gino Toretta won the Heisman and was picked in the seventh round. What would be more informative would be his ranking by the draft "experts", and how often guys with that ranking go undrafted. I guess he was considered a late third round pick? My completely wild guess is that those guys usually get drafted but it's not unheard of that they don't.
This. Hes also ranked as the 12th best pass rusher in the draft, and with everyone with their panties in a bunch to try to replicate the impossible to replicate seahawks d model, this kids getting drafted.Kenny F'ing Powers said:
Echoing the joy id get of the medias collective groan if the pats drafted him, knowing bill wouldnt allow the circus that espn et al would try to turn it into.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
I'm sorry I had the temerity to express an opinion about a professional football player on a website dedicated to the discussion of sports. Go fuck yourself.
I would also note that my 4th/5th opinion isn't much different from the late-3rd that appears to be the consensus among people who follow this stuff closely. I thought the Mizzou beat writer for the St. Louis Post-Dispatch made a good argument why C.J. Mosley should have been the DPoY, and that Sam wasn't even clearly the best player on Mizzou's defensive line.
I'll be rooting for Sam to beat the odds, but I'm not going to change my opinion about his prospects just because I know something about his personal life that I didn't before.
Kenny F'ing Powers said:
What do you mean? DCmissle said all things being equal, the Pats wouldn't draft him. That qualifier is good enough for me to assume that means the entire league feels this way.
maufman said:
The difference between a 3rd rounder and a 5th rounder is big, and you know that.
Stating that he isn't a good NFL prospect (despite being listed in most places as a top 100 prospect), and then using the "tweener" label as your only proof of mediocrity may be "your opinion", but it's a lazily presented one. Getting pissy and telling me to "go fuck myself" doesn't change that.
Maybe I'm delusional but I think if anything this makes it more likely that the Pats draft him. They seem to have been really focussed lately on picking up guys with mental toughness-Tavon Wilson, Cole and Ebner all lost close family members, Thompkins overcame all kinds of adversity (some self-infliced)--and, at least to me, it would take a hell of a lot of guts and mental fortitude to come out to a SEC football team. Plus it's a reasonably open minded region and it would be pretty surprising if BB and Kraft weren't as welcoming as any senior executives would be in a company in the Boston area.
The biggest question is where you'd fit him in. He's a little big (and maybe slow) for a special teams demon, a little small for DE, and while he's a nice size to convert to a 3-4 ILB we're not running that any more.
The biggest question is where you'd fit him in. He's a little big (and maybe slow) for a special teams demon, a little small for DE, and while he's a nice size to convert to a 3-4 ILB we're not running that any more.
Player has a high motor, is an award-winner at the college level, who might not fit in the pro game at his current position, and who will generate a ton of media attention.
I'm sure a team will draft him because talent is talent and someone will take a chance to see what he can do. But the potential for a Tebow-like situation might be creeping up there. There will be a vocal contingent of fans who want him to succeed at all costs because of what he represents to them, which isn't a bad thing at all, but might make it a bit harder for a team if they feel he isn't working out.
Good luck to him, I hope he makes it.
I'm sure a team will draft him because talent is talent and someone will take a chance to see what he can do. But the potential for a Tebow-like situation might be creeping up there. There will be a vocal contingent of fans who want him to succeed at all costs because of what he represents to them, which isn't a bad thing at all, but might make it a bit harder for a team if they feel he isn't working out.
Good luck to him, I hope he makes it.
Objectively, it's hard to imagine he stock doesn't drop just a little because of this. It's hard to imagine a team moving him up on the draft board because of this, and if there's even one team that devalues him because of this, then his stock drops.
That said, I think it's a hugely positive step, and I hope it prods one of the gay athletes in the NFL with a more or less stable contract situation to "beat him to it".
That said, I think it's a hugely positive step, and I hope it prods one of the gay athletes in the NFL with a more or less stable contract situation to "beat him to it".
So I was curious who from Mizzou had Been drafted recently (for some reason Collins jumped to mind but I was obviously wrong). It seems at least realistic to think that Johnny Football class of 2013 Drafted by whomever probably still had friends on the Mizzou team and probably had heard about this before the rest of us. Hell Johnny Football may have been Friends with Mike Sam and known before the "announcement to the team".
(and no by Johnny Football I do not mean Manziel. Rather I mean any Random Mizzou player)
Interesting...
Sheldon Richardson.....NY Jets
TJ Moe....UDFA Patriots.
Elvis Fisher....UDFA Patriots
There are a few other players and teams http://www.rockmnation.com/2013/4/28/4277994/2013-nfl-draft-missouri-tigers
Whats this mean? Probably nothing. However it COULD mean a couple things....
BB has a "pipe line" from Mizzou. Maybe he knows someone...maybe not. Either way he may have someone who can describe the PLAYER and the Atmosphere that was inside the UoMizzou locker room. That might be good info.
He can also talk to Moe....and Maybe if they still have a relationship with him, Fisher....and ask "How was Sam as a teammate? Did his orientation ever create an issue in the locker room? How did he handle homophobes? Is he a private guy? Is he mature?" Etc etc . All the things that scouts will track down....it just might be a tad easier for the Pats or the Jets.
And yea....I cannot imagine the horror this kids life would be if the Jets drafted him....
(and no by Johnny Football I do not mean Manziel. Rather I mean any Random Mizzou player)
Interesting...
Sheldon Richardson.....NY Jets
TJ Moe....UDFA Patriots.
Elvis Fisher....UDFA Patriots
There are a few other players and teams http://www.rockmnation.com/2013/4/28/4277994/2013-nfl-draft-missouri-tigers
Whats this mean? Probably nothing. However it COULD mean a couple things....
BB has a "pipe line" from Mizzou. Maybe he knows someone...maybe not. Either way he may have someone who can describe the PLAYER and the Atmosphere that was inside the UoMizzou locker room. That might be good info.
He can also talk to Moe....and Maybe if they still have a relationship with him, Fisher....and ask "How was Sam as a teammate? Did his orientation ever create an issue in the locker room? How did he handle homophobes? Is he a private guy? Is he mature?" Etc etc . All the things that scouts will track down....it just might be a tad easier for the Pats or the Jets.
And yea....I cannot imagine the horror this kids life would be if the Jets drafted him....
It will be interesting to see where this discussion goes after the combine.
It seems some guys make or break themselves there. With Sam I worry that a bad combine will provide cover for the coded but obviously homophobic "distraction" rhetoric, but a good combine will really force the issue.
It seems some guys make or break themselves there. With Sam I worry that a bad combine will provide cover for the coded but obviously homophobic "distraction" rhetoric, but a good combine will really force the issue.
Being wholly uninformed on NFL locker-room behavior as well as how NFL scouts/GMs factor this news into their player assessments, it
would seem most probable that Sam coming out will negatively impact his draft position as some teams pass on the possible distraction
factor alone. Further I would think that in terms of successfully integrating a gay player into a team, you need a strong ownership, FO, and veteran team that can handle the inevitable BS that comes with the event. Would the Pats fit that model? Probably
would seem most probable that Sam coming out will negatively impact his draft position as some teams pass on the possible distraction
factor alone. Further I would think that in terms of successfully integrating a gay player into a team, you need a strong ownership, FO, and veteran team that can handle the inevitable BS that comes with the event. Would the Pats fit that model? Probably
Some interesting tidbits from SI and other sites this morning. The abomination article had a snippet that did ring very true to me.
Sam is actually BB's draft wet dream. A smart football player that may have talent as high as the 2nd or 3rd round that he may be able to pick up for a 4th or a 5th. Nothing makes Bill happier than getting a talent worthy of a higher round for a lower round pick. All the hoopla and circus may make him undervalued at draft day.
His height isn't drastically dissimilar from some successful outside linebackers, the aforementioned Cliff Avril, hell James Harrison is shorter than him (6 foot) and runs 275 (listed), but then Harrisons don't grow on trees either.
His best traits are his intelligence and his motor, if he's enthusiastic about being a special teams ace right out the gate that'll go a long way to securing him a roster spot. Biggest true knock on him is he's old for a high round pick and will enter decline sooner than you'd like.
For an interesting aside Richie Incognito has tweeted support (or his PR management firm did it for him);
Missing from that list is obviously New England since they also fit the GM's description.
Sam is actually BB's draft wet dream. A smart football player that may have talent as high as the 2nd or 3rd round that he may be able to pick up for a 4th or a 5th. Nothing makes Bill happier than getting a talent worthy of a higher round for a lower round pick. All the hoopla and circus may make him undervalued at draft day.
His height isn't drastically dissimilar from some successful outside linebackers, the aforementioned Cliff Avril, hell James Harrison is shorter than him (6 foot) and runs 275 (listed), but then Harrisons don't grow on trees either.
His best traits are his intelligence and his motor, if he's enthusiastic about being a special teams ace right out the gate that'll go a long way to securing him a roster spot. Biggest true knock on him is he's old for a high round pick and will enter decline sooner than you'd like.
For an interesting aside Richie Incognito has tweeted support (or his PR management firm did it for him);
Richie Incognito@68INCOGNITO Follow
@MikeSamFootball #respect bro. It takes guts to do what you did. I wish u nothing but the best
Is there another industry on the planet besides sports where otherwise apparently sane individuals can argue that well-paid professional adults aren't ready to handle something that a bunch of college guys had no problem with?
You're not delusional at all. The Tebow experiment proved the Pats are willing to bring in a marginal player who the rest of the league deems to be too much of a distraction, even if that player doesn't seem to fit with their system. If Sam doesn't slip in the draft, he'll probably end up someplace where he's a better fit for the system, but if he does slip, I think the Pats are one of the prime contenders to take a flier on him.Shelterdog said:
Besides, any extra attention paid to Sam will be nothing compared to the circus Tebow brought to town. After the first couple of days, Sam will be just another player trying to make the team.
Reverend said:
Entertainment industry comes to mind, but yes...I agree with your larger point that this is kind of a ridiculous/amazing discussion to even be having.
Profootball talk suggested that some teams may be more inclined to draft him for the PR benefit. They specifically mentioned Miami, Washington and Minnesota, who are all dealing with their own PR issues right now (Bullying, Racist Name, Homophobic Coach). I think it's worth noting that this could happen. Now drafting a player specifically for PR benefits seems like a dumb thing to do, since the point of the draft is to make your football team better. But no one is ever going to accuse Miami, Washington and Minnesota of being well run franchises, so this would not surprise me.
A friend of mine who plays college football told me this fall that they learned that one of their teammates was gay and what should he do? I said, well, he's your teammate. You fight for this guy super hard. Imagine how difficult it must be for him in what is a stereotypical football locker room. You be a great teammate to him, support him, help him improve as a player, you got his back, the whole thing.
I understand that many people are uncomfortable with homosexuality, and honestly, I'm ok with them being uncomfortable with it. But if a guy is your teammate, you link arms with this guy and you take on the world together.
But we are being naive, I think, if we don't recognize that there are still plenty of people who simply will not want this guy as a teammate, and that there is the potential for major locker room disruption.
That said, I wish the kid all the luck in the world, and I hope he makes it (or not) based on his football merits.
I understand that many people are uncomfortable with homosexuality, and honestly, I'm ok with them being uncomfortable with it. But if a guy is your teammate, you link arms with this guy and you take on the world together.
But we are being naive, I think, if we don't recognize that there are still plenty of people who simply will not want this guy as a teammate, and that there is the potential for major locker room disruption.
That said, I wish the kid all the luck in the world, and I hope he makes it (or not) based on his football merits.
Yea I think they are really underestimating teammates.
We have all had teammates that we had "issues" with. Being different in their lives or beliefs didn't make them wrong. Maybe they were loud and obnoxious, maybe they were A republican or a democrat maybe they where super religious and you were not, maybe they where black and you were white. Regardless......they became YOUR loudmouth. YOUR Democrat. YOUR Religious zealot. Your white guy. Soon it didnt matter what they were or did...they were YOUR person on YOUR team and you were going to fight like hell for them. Some how the brain trusts of the nfl think being gay is different? Eventually Sports helps foster acceptance just as blood does.
You may not have accepted every republican or every atheist but you accepted that 1....and you moved closer to accepting that people can be different and not be the enemy.
I can tell you from my experience that exactly what happened in my family. It became maybe I dont agree or maybe I cant understand....but they are MY people and thats enough. And it seems like for the gay people in my life....thats all they really want.
We have all had teammates that we had "issues" with. Being different in their lives or beliefs didn't make them wrong. Maybe they were loud and obnoxious, maybe they were A republican or a democrat maybe they where super religious and you were not, maybe they where black and you were white. Regardless......they became YOUR loudmouth. YOUR Democrat. YOUR Religious zealot. Your white guy. Soon it didnt matter what they were or did...they were YOUR person on YOUR team and you were going to fight like hell for them. Some how the brain trusts of the nfl think being gay is different? Eventually Sports helps foster acceptance just as blood does.
You may not have accepted every republican or every atheist but you accepted that 1....and you moved closer to accepting that people can be different and not be the enemy.
I can tell you from my experience that exactly what happened in my family. It became maybe I dont agree or maybe I cant understand....but they are MY people and thats enough. And it seems like for the gay people in my life....thats all they really want.
EvilEmpire said:
Exactly, that was my thought as well. He'll be to the politically left-wing fans what Tim Tebow was to the politically right-wing fans. Everyone else will just care about whether he can beat a professional offensive lineman to a spot.
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