Milwaukee Bucks boycott Game 5 vs Orlando

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Off the bat:
- I support the players right to sit out tonight and be active in this way
- I support players uniformly over owners in nearly every single labor dispute and believe they should take home the lion's share of money.
- I don't agree with the poster you're responding to

But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.

The idea that people can't voice an opinion about the way their city is policed because of their identity is pretty corrosive. And that's what we're talking about when we're talking about the NBA players trying to "change' things. If change means holding police accountable, I think a vast, vast majority of America agrees with them. If it means defunding police departments, that's a very different story and one that a majority of Americans, including those in aggrieved classes, do not agree with, particularly because there's not a lot of evidence behind it. So if I live in NY, LA, Chicago, Seattle, Atlanta, wherever, yeah, I should be thinking about the problem and the response to it and voicing that opinion even if I'm not in the aggrieved class because it impacts the safety of the people in my community. Insulting these players is not cool, as their intentions are obviously good, but we should have the flexibility as a civil society to allow people to disagree with parts of the end goal.

So I don't know what the answer is here and I don't think a lot of people do, including the players. I'm glad they're making people ask the question. But I just disagree that people who aren't in socially defined classes need to sit on the side of these conversations and nod along in agreement.
I appreciate your thoughtful response. We need more of this and less "sick burns" that do nothing that further heighten acrimony.

With regard to the bolded, I am simply referring to those who keep finding problems with the players form of protest - not potential solutions. This isn't the right forum for that but I do feel very strongly that these athletes should be able to define their protest movement however they want.

Unfortunately we have a few people, at least, who keep getting caught up in what the players are doing versus the larger issue at hand. If you aren't an NBA player, you opinion about their methods and objectives is irrelevant. And if you are white, its even less so. Its theirs.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Adam Silver, smart guy and problem solver, is certainly trying to think of a way out of this that makes the player's feel heard and their desires supported and also continue the playoffs.

What might that be?

Just brainstorming....

1) If I were him I'd be on the phone to noted basketball fan Barack Obama to say that you'd love his advice on how the NBA can spend money, public attention, and channel the enthusiasm of the league and players towards progress. You of course would have to mean it, but I acutally think the NBA does. And that's one guy who might be able to get the players to believe in a different path---though I have no idea whether he would think they should walk, play, or something else entirely

2) You can write a big check to NAACP or a different cause. Not sure that will persuade the players.

3) You can try to get the owners to rally politically around the issue. That might help, but feels pretty tough to execute with a club of billionaires

4) You can do a version of 2 where you commit all proceeds from playoffs to the right cause (this, or 1, is what I'd advise him to do if I had to do so at this moment)

5) You can try to get major advertisers and broadcast partners to commit to a variety of things around change.

Other ideas?
 

snowmanny

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They are so upset... they are taking the night off?

Maybe - suspend the playoffs, entirely? Go to Kinosha? Really do something.
Tell me another league where the players did something 1/3 as big as this over any social issue.

I’ll hang up and listen
 

BaseballJones

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Adam Silver, smart guy and problem solver, is certainly trying to think of a way out of this that makes the player's feel heard and their desires supported and also continue the playoffs.

What might that be?

Just brainstorming....

1) If I were him I'd be on the phone to noted basketball fan Barack Obama to say that you'd love his advice on how the NBA can spend money, public attention, and channel the enthusiasm of the league and players towards progress. You of course would have to mean it, but I acutally think the NBA does. And that's one guy who might be able to get the players to believe in a different path---though I have no idea whether he would think they should walk, play, or something else entirely

2) You can write a big check to NAACP or a different cause. Not sure that will persuade the players.

3) You can try to get the owners to rally politically around the issue. That might help, but feels pretty tough to execute with a club of billionaires

4) You can do a version of 2 where you commit all proceeds from playoffs to the right cause

5) You can try to get major advertisers and broadcast partners to commit to a variety of things around change.

Other ideas?
Do you think the players are demanding the NBA do more, or are they just protesting police brutality and demanding change there?
 

DeadlySplitter

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this is a very fluid situation. I can see the season "falling apart" here. But really, does society deserve sports right now? it'd be powerful if every major sport just stopped until there's police reform.
 

PedroKsBambino

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Do you think the players are demanding the NBA do more, or are they just protesting police brutality and demanding change there?
I think they are surely protesting police brutality and demanding change there. But Adam Silver's problem is not that he opposes that goal, it is that the NBA season is about to be collateral damage. So I expect he is trying to figure a way out of that, since he can't just decree an end to police bruality himself.
 

nayrbrey

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BaseballJones

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I think they are surely protesting police brutality and demanding change there. But Adam Silver's problem is not that he opposes that goal, it is that the NBA season is about to be collateral damage. So I expect he is trying to figure a way out of that, since he can't just decree an end to police bruality himself.
Right I get that. But do you think if he does any of those things that will bring them back to the court? That's a serious question. They're not actually demanding anything of HIM, so why should anything HE does mollify them? (I don't mean that term in a negative way.)

Unless they actually ARE demanding something of him.
 

The Social Chair

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The young players should be leading the discussion on if they cancel the season. They will be the ones feeling the economic impacts of a new CBA, not Lebron or Chris Paul.
 

Caspir

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Off the bat:
- I support the players right to sit out tonight and be active in this way
- I support players uniformly over owners in nearly every single labor dispute and believe they should take home the lion's share of money.
- I don't agree with the poster you're responding to

But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.
Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.

As for the rest of your post, no, we shouldn’t be able to disagree about the end goal when the end goal is to stop periodically executing black men. Your post sucks, try harder.
 

AMcGhie

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You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class.
The bolded statement is where I lose you. You choose to define centuries of systemic racism as "rooted in a political bent", and call NBA players not black enough. Your opening argument is that their argument isn't valid, and that's where you're wrong.
 

Soxy

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These players and their families are more on the knife's edge of these threats than the people sitting in the stands.

I'd include some of the overseas players like the Eastern European and Turkish players in there.
Oh, for sure. My post was more in awe of how wild and audacious all of this is by the players, in the best possible way. Which is also why it seems really weird to me that some others in this thread are like, "they're just skipping a game or two, whatevs." Like, wut.

A bunch of teams basically just went on strike in the middle of the playoffs. That's usually not a thing that happens.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.

As for the rest of your post, no, we shouldn’t be able to disagree about the end goal when the end goal is to stop periodically executing black men. Your post sucks, try harder.
I didn't want to go there but in the last 24 hoursVince Carter, Sam Mitchell and Isiah Thomas have all come out with stories about recent run ins with law enforcement. If you are black and rich in America, you are just as at risk of being subject to a level of suspicion and scrutiny that white people with lesser means could never imagine. And these are just the stories of famous wealthy people. Its pretty clear that wealth and status don't stop racism - maybe it just allows people to paper it over.
 

GoDa

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Those are certainly words.

The "" around Jaylen's involvement is a particularly nice touch.
Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.

But - I'm expressing my opinion that a night off... 7 seconds of silence... or a sticker on the shoes... is not the correct answer.

What are you chasing after?
 

Ralphwiggum

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But your response encapsulates what is so confusing to a lot of people. You're choosing to define class by one definition, and it's a popular definition right now rooted in a political bent. By any other measure, NBA players are not part of an aggrieved class. They are wealthy and have very large and influential platforms. In terms of power dynamics, they are a part of the powerful. Lebron James could very easily change Ohio politics if he chose to spend his money that way.
Didn't one of the Bucks players recently have a run-in with police where he ended up with a knee on his neck like George Floyd? Who are you to say they are not members of an aggrieved class? And even if their wealth and platform puts them in a different position vis a vis the police than your average every day black guy, they all grew up understanding what it means to be black in this country, and how it feels to fear, not trust, the police. The fact that they have money now does not mean that they don't have the standing to speak on the issue.

I'm incredibly impressed that these guys are using their platform to bring awareness and demand change.
 
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CSteinhardt

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Adam Silver, smart guy and problem solver, is certainly trying to think of a way out of this that makes the player's feel heard and their desires supported and also continue the playoffs.

What might that be?
This isn't an NBA issue, it's a societal one. There isn't anything Adam Silver can do that's going to stop police officers from murdering black men. And the players have seen that despite using their microphone to send messages of social justice, those messages aren't working right now. I don't think giving them a larger microphone is going to solve the problem. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any sort of microphone that can solve the problem right now, but that's perhaps a discussion for a different forum. The point is, the NBA can't stop police violence, so if the players decide that it's more important to protest right now than to play, that's what's going to happen. The best decision the NBA can make, IMO, is to support whatever decision the players make, even if it costs them revenue in the short term. It's both the right moral choice and one which will preserve a strong relationship between the players and the league in the long term.

As for what the players should do? I honestly have never been in a situation where I needed to be afraid of the police, or lived in those communities. So I can't really give them much advice. I think the best I can do here is to trust the decisions made by the players, who have had those experiences which I haven't. As a sports fan, of course I'd love to have my entertainment, but if there's something which these players could be doing instead of entertaining me which is going to save lives and protect their communities, then I'll do without basketball for a while.
 

bankshot1

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The NBA players are in a bubble-they can't march, or protest in any other way. What should they do?

This seems a wholly rational response to a growing national crisis that seems about to boil over.

How many black guys have to get murdered?

But the players need an end-game to fully make their points and educate the public.

No games tomorrow or maybe through the week-end-and use the TV time for player panel discussions talking about the growing up black in America and the challenges and the racism they've encountered.

Let the player voice their anger and frustrations and teach and maybe open eyes.

AND THESE ARE THE GUYS WHO MADE IT!

Or maybe like gladiators of ancient times, they simply turn to Caesar, raise their swords and proclaim, "we who are about to die salute you"
 

PedroKsBambino

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Right I get that. But do you think if he does any of those things that will bring them back to the court? That's a serious question. They're not actually demanding anything of HIM, so why should anything HE does mollify them? (I don't mean that term in a negative way.)

Unless they actually ARE demanding something of him.
As I said, I think he's trying to solve the problem of how to get them to come back. So at one level, I think they want something and he is likely thinking about how he can be a part (and only a part) of helping them. I also think he'd have to be completely incompetent to be operating under the assumption that since he can't completely solve the player's concern himself immediately he should just throw up his hands (which is how I read your posts).

The players are rational people. They realize Adam Silver and ESPN and Budweiser can't immediately solve their problem. They want to catalyze and feel real momentum towards change. I have no idea if NBA can be a part of that in their minds or not, but I also don't think they to date have suggested "all racism and police violence stop immediately or we're not coming back" so teams and the NBA are likely trying to figure out what can be done.
 

PedroKsBambino

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This isn't an NBA issue, it's a societal one. There isn't anything Adam Silver can do that's going to stop police officers from murdering black men. And the players have seen that despite using their microphone to send messages of social justice, those messages aren't working right now. I don't think giving them a larger microphone is going to solve the problem. Frankly, I'm not sure there's any sort of microphone that can solve the problem right now, but that's perhaps a discussion for a different forum. The point is, the NBA can't stop police violence, so if the players decide that it's more important to protest right now than to play, that's what's going to happen. The best decision the NBA can make, IMO, is to support whatever decision the players make, even if it costs them revenue in the short term. It's both the right moral choice and one which will preserve a strong relationship between the players and the league in the long term.

As for what the players should do? I honestly have never been in a situation where I needed to be afraid of the police, or lived in those communities. So I can't really give them much advice. I think the best I can do here is to trust the decisions made by the players, who have had those experiences which I haven't. As a sports fan, of course I'd love to have my entertainment, but if there's something which these players could be doing instead of entertaining me which is going to save lives and protect their communities, then I'll do without basketball for a while.
I think you are misunderstanding their goals and underestimating their sophistication.
 

BroodsSexton

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This is awesome. Imagine waking up to realize that you have the power to cause this kind of disruption, and then doing it? To realize that you’ve been super competitive all your life in a particular, physical way, but that as a consequence you’ve unintentionally developed collateral power, which you then flex over America? Forget the playoffs. These guys are winning society. Hell yeah.
 

Ed Hillel

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This would be interesting, as I am sure the demographics of baseball players definitely leans conservative (at least in relation to the NBA).
While I'm sure you are at least partially correct, in terms of relative between the leagues, I think one thing that's quite clear is that this has blossomed into a generation thing more than anything else. You saw Boston in the wake of George Floyd, you saw young celebrities and people everywhere taking up signs and taking to the streets. Athletes are young people and this new generation, quite literally, is not going to stand for it anymore.
 

singaporesoxfan

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We all root for laundry, as Seinfeld put it, and we talk about the power of sports teams as representatives of our cities. But that also means if you want players of any sport to represent your city or state, your city or state needs to act in ways that make them proud to put on that jersey, and while Milwaukee isn’t Kenosha I can’t imagine the Bucks or Brewers feel any pride in representing a Wisconsin city
 

BaseballJones

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I don't know if we need to blindly "trust" the decision made by the players, but before anyone jumps down my throat, let me explain. Many of you know that my daughter got raped in college a year and a half ago. Unbelievably traumatic for all of us, but for obvious reasons, a thousand times more for her. As we walked through this together, we had to consider what the next step should be. Should she seek prosecution? Should she seek damages? Should she go public on social media? Should she stay silent and not endure any more pain that might come from backlash? Impossibly difficult decisions.

We were not necessarily confident that whatever decision she would end up making would be the best one. But she was the victim, the aggrieved party, and so while we did our best to help her think things through, mainly we were just there for her and supported whatever decision she made. I had my views on what the better course of action might be, but I understood that this was HER fight. This was HER choice to make. And so I let her know from the get-go that whatever choice she made, I was all in with her, no matter what. We would support her and fight ALONGSIDE her, whatever choice she made.

I see it similarly here. I don't know that what they're doing is the "best" course of action, and I'm not positive I trust their judgment on it. But that's irrelevant. They are the "aggrieved class" here (I put it in quotes because the aggrieved party in this case is someone different in particular, but I think you get my meaning) and I want to support them. If they choose to protest, I'm supporting that. If they want to use whatever power they have to facilitate change another way, I want to support them.

Hope this makes sense.
 

PC Drunken Friar

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While I'm sure you are at least partially correct, in terms of relative between the leagues, I think one thing that's quite clear is that this has blossomed into a generation thing more than anything else. You saw Boston in the wake of George Floyd, you saw young celebrities and people everywhere taking up signs and taking to the streets. Athletes are young people and this new generation, quite literally, is not going to stand for it anymore.
I wholeheartedly agree. But when you "may" have 1 or 2 basketball players on a team (and that is probably generous) that sympathize with police/all lives matter/Republican causes, etc...in baseball that number will be higher and therefore tougher to come together as one voice against the oppression.
 

singaporesoxfan

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This is awesome. Imagine waking up to realize that you have the power to cause this kind of disruption, and then doing it? To realize that you’ve been super competitive all your life in a particular, physical way, but that as a consequence you’ve unintentionally developed collateral power, which you then flex over America? Forget the playoffs. These guys are winning society. Hell yeah.
Yeah, this isn’t a boycott, it’s a strike, and one thing that’s true about the NBA that isn’t common in America nowadays is that it’s a workplace where the workers have the power to effectively run a wildcat strike
 

DannyDarwinism

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Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.

But - I'm expressing my opinion that a night off... 7 seconds of silence... or a sticker on the shoes... is not the correct answer.

What are you chasing after?
“A night off”... As if you weren’t revealing yourself already, with your insistence on nitpicking the precise manner by which these men protest, your belittling language tells me all I need to know on where you stand.
 

OurF'ingCity

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Yeah, this isn’t a boycott, it’s a strike, and one thing that’s true about the NBA that isn’t common in America nowadays is that it’s a workplace where the workers have the power to effectively run a wildcat strike
If the league resumes business as usual in a few days, it's not a boycott OR a strike - it's just the league and players mutually agreeing to postpone a handful of games to make a statement.

If the players refuse to play the rest of the postseason, then yes, I agree.
 

ManicCompression

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Wow, it must be so hard to get confused so easily. According to your post, NBA players, by virtue of having money (?) and being famous (?) are somehow not members of an aggrieved class? And yet Thabo Sefolosha had his leg broken by the NYPD and Sterling Brown is involved in an ongoing lawsuit against the police department for excessive force. So strange. I guess those cops didn’t get the memo that the rich black guys aren’t aggrieved. Lebron James could easily change politics if he just chose to do so? Aside from being completely false, it’s an idiotic statement to make in a thread about players not taking the court.

As for the rest of your post, no, we shouldn’t be able to disagree about the end goal when the end goal is to stop periodically executing black men. Your post sucks, try harder.
I didn't say that "no NBA has ever dealt with racism." Obviously there have been some extremely ugly incidents with players like Sterling Brown and Thabo. My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players for good reason.

And regarding LeBron James, he absolutely could. He's his own billion dollar corporation. He could lobby politicians, he could help people get IDs so they can vote, he could cold call voters in the OH suburbs, etc. He's a very powerful human.

Not sure why I'm deserving of that kind of attitude for trying to express the fairly anodyne opinion that this is a really complex issue with a lot of different angles that should be discussed.

The bolded statement is where I lose you. You choose to define centuries of systemic racism as "rooted in a political bent", and call NBA players not black enough. Your opening argument is that their argument isn't valid, and that's where you're wrong.
I didn't say either of those things. You interpreted them that way for whatever reason. I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now. I have no idea where the black enough thing is coming from and I think that says more about you than me. Being rich and powerful is certainly a domain for a number of black men and women, including politicians, business leaders, entertainers, and even NBA players.

Thanks @DeJesus Built My Hotrod for the thoughtful post and response
 

snowmanny

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he could help people get IDs so they can vote
Nobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.

And if they did need an ID it would be up to the government to give them one for free.

Which is why nobody actually wants to make people get IDs to vote.
 

BaseballJones

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Nobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.

And if they did need an ID it would be up to the government to give them one for free.

Which is why nobody actually wants to make people get IDs to vote.
In my relatively small New England town (pop. ~10,000) I need to show an ID to vote. At least they always ask to see it. I’ve never tried NOT showing it to see what would happen.
 

faceface

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Nobody needs IDs to vote. Where did you hear this? I have never produced an ID to vote.

And if they did need an ID it would be up to the government to give them one for free.

Which is why nobody actually wants to make people get IDs to vote.
Huh? https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/voter-id.aspx

Voter ID laws are a primary means of making it difficult to vote.


Sarcasm?
 

tmracht

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Because I can think quickly and realize it doesn't seem particularly consequential (there appear to be none) or sacrificial (again, a night off). Jaylen is a very "involved" person. If he and Giannis left the bubble to go to Kinosha/DC/wherever and said they'll be back to basketball after they do some things. That's badass. That's putting your money where your mouth is.

This is taking a night off.

I'm sorry if you don't like my opinion. I hope you'll consider it.
Thank you for the response. I think we are going to see things differently in this matter.
 

fairlee76

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I didn't say that "no NBA has ever dealt with racism." Obviously there have been some extremely ugly incidents with players like Sterling Brown and Thabo. My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players for good reason.

And regarding LeBron James, he absolutely could. He's his own billion dollar corporation. He could lobby politicians, he could help people get IDs so they can vote, he could cold call voters in the OH suburbs, etc. He's a very powerful human.

Not sure why I'm deserving of that kind of attitude for trying to express the fairly anodyne opinion that this is a really complex issue with a lot of different angles that should be discussed.



I didn't say either of those things. You interpreted them that way for whatever reason. I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now. I have no idea where the black enough thing is coming from and I think that says more about you than me. Being rich and powerful is certainly a domain for a number of black men and women, including politicians, business leaders, entertainers, and even NBA players.

Thanks @DeJesus Built My Hotrod for the thoughtful post and response
When it comes to black men and women in this country, there is no "right now" to their being, rightfully, aggrieved. Their persecution is not some temporary, fleeting element of this society. It has been a permanent feature and it goes way beyond politics.
 

AMcGhie

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I said that viewing only people of certain identities as being aggrieved is political, because it absolutely is right now.
You are one of the reasons why people are still protesting, because you don't get it and really seem happy that way. The discrimination specifically against Black people in this country is older than this country itself. You see the desire for equal rights as "political" as a way to willfully misunderstand them. You are wrong.
 

OCST

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Yes, they imply emphasis and meaning beyond the typical. He is a smart guy. He is socially conscious. He does appear to enjoy getting involved with and diving more deeply into issues than your average guy. I would be completely unsurprised, if after basketball, he went into politics. He's one of my favorite players and he's great. This could be quite a moment for him.

But - I'm expressing my opinion that a night off... 7 seconds of silence... or a sticker on the shoes... is not the correct answer.

What are you chasing after?
One of these things is not like the other.

Having a whole squad boycott a playoff game is quite a different thing, by an exponential order of magnitude.

But you know that.

So it's time to stop feeding the troll.
 

ManicCompression

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You are one of the reasons why people are still protesting, because you don't get it and really seem happy that way. The discrimination specifically against Black people in this country is older than this country itself. You see the desire for equal rights as "political" as a way to willfully misunderstand them. You are wrong.
Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.

I understand how people are being discriminated against. I'm am empathetic to it. I support people protesting - in my original post, I stated plainly just that. However, there are policy prescriptions baked into these conversations that are inherently political and thoughts on those specific policies have nothing to do with how a person feels about the problem at large. A person can question how we attempt to get to an end goal while agreeing with the end goal.
 

Kenny F'ing Powers

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Nov 17, 2010
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I'm happy they did what they did, but honestly, I think they could have taken it a little further.

Make them broadcast the forfeit. Take the tip, run out the clock, drop the ball, and walk off the court. Make America see it.

Either way, good on them
 

BroodsSexton

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Feb 4, 2006
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I'm happy they did what they did, but honestly, I think they could have taken it a little further.

Make them broadcast the forfeit. Take the tip, run out the clock, drop the ball, and walk off the court. Make America see it.

Either way, good on them
This would have been great. Even better if they could get the Magic to play to a draw, 0-0.
 

LogansDad

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Nov 15, 2006
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This is awesome. Imagine waking up to realize that you have the power to cause this kind of disruption, and then doing it? To realize that you’ve been super competitive all your life in a particular, physical way, but that as a consequence you’ve unintentionally developed collateral power, which you then flex over America? Forget the playoffs. These guys are winning society. Hell yeah.
I love this post, can I plagiarize it?
 

Minneapolis Millers

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Jul 15, 2005
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I love this post, can I plagiarize it?
Seconded!
.... My point was that you could be a dead-broke white person with no access to education, no access to decent food, no job prospects - and there are tens of millions of these people in the US - and you probably would see yourself as less powerful than NBA players...
Yes, there are tens of millions of people who feel this way. And not one of them has ever been pulled over for Driving While Black. So you and they would be wrong. Whites have unseen but universally accepted privileges/advantages that BIPOC don’t. And that’s a big part of the problem.
 

GeorgeCostanza

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May 16, 2009
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Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.

I understand how people are being discriminated against. I'm am empathetic to it. I support people protesting - in my original post, I stated plainly just that. However, there are policy prescriptions baked into these conversations that are inherently political and thoughts on those specific policies have nothing to do with how a person feels about the problem at large. A person can question how we attempt to get to an end goal while agreeing with the end goal.
I think it may be helpful if you define which policy prescriptions are inherently political. That could go a long way toward bridging the divide here. Or I suppose widening it depending on the answer?
 

oumbi

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Jun 15, 2006
3,135
Colin Kapernick lost the prime years of his career, tens of millions of dollars, and has been made out as a villain and traitor for most of the country, for taking this stand.

This is not without risk for the players.
Indeed it is not.

"How the Black Power Protest at the 1968 Olympics Killed Careers."

 

Ralphwiggum

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Jun 27, 2012
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Again, this is how you're choosing to interpret what I'm saying and making fairly explosive judgments about my values in the process. We are talking on a message board - you don't know me and I don't know why you're presuming that I'm "happy" about anything going on right now.

I understand how people are being discriminated against. I'm am empathetic to it. I support people protesting - in my original post, I stated plainly just that. However, there are policy prescriptions baked into these conversations that are inherently political and thoughts on those specific policies have nothing to do with how a person feels about the problem at large. A person can question how we attempt to get to an end goal while agreeing with the end goal.
What does this mean? I fail to see what is political about demanding equal rights and equal treatment under the law.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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Jun 14, 2013
10,737
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According to Shams, it seems like the Magic originally wanted to play and were on the floor at some point but returned to their locker rooms when the Bucks didn't come out. I'm sure there has to be some amount of division among the players as to how to proceed and I wonder if it will cause conflict within the bubble. I especially wonder about younger, less established players who are hurt the most by not playing.
 

ManicCompression

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May 14, 2015
200
Yes, there are tens of millions of people who feel this way. And not one of them has ever been pulled over for Driving While Black. So you and they would be wrong. Whites have unseen but universally accepted privileges/advantages that BIPOC don’t. And that’s a big part of the problem.
So you view a basketball player who has made millions of dollars in his career, has millions of fans he can reach out to and a microphone to distribute his thoughts as being less powerful than someone mired in poverty just because of the color of his skin? I'm sorry that I don't agree, but that doesn't mean that I'm not horrified by police violence and inequality.

I think it may be helpful if you define which policy prescriptions are inherently political. That could go a long way toward bridging the divide here. Or I suppose widening it depending on the answer?
For example, defunding the police - I don't know enough about it to know if it's the right answer or not, in many of the flavors it comes in. And I don't think anyone knows that it is the answer, yet it's often presented as if it's this tested, perfect solution and if you disagree with it, then you disagree with the entire goal of the movement. But what if we do that and the results are worse? Where's the evidence that it's a better solution than what we're doing now? Of course it sounds good but it's not actually rooted in any proof. The closest thing that I've seen is Camden, NJ, but what happened was that they ended up hiring more police, but the police were private instead of a part of the existing department.

Sorry for taking much of this OT - having lived in dangerous, impoverished areas of Brooklyn in the past and seeing how my neighbors in those communities wished that there was better policing (and more of it) rather than some of the solutions being posed in the current climate impacts the way I think about it.