MLB and MLBPA have a deal

VORP Speed

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i agrée 100% on this. It took them a while to figure out that cheap young guys were impacting the low/mid-tier free agents.
I still don’t think the players fully get it. The increased CBT thresholds are going to lead to even bigger contracts for the top tier free agents, but aren’t going to trickle down that much. Club controlled players are still an uber bargain, even more so when you factor in the roster flexibility of having remaining options.
 

YTF

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Stark has an article up on scheduling makeups / changes. It's Athletic paywall, but I'll quote one thing - his claim for the more balanced schedule starting next year. He presents it like it's a done deal:



https://theathletic.com/3178572/2022/03/11/stark-everything-you-need-to-know-about-the-many-mlb-schedule-changes-in-2022-and-2023/
Call me a fan of this and IMO it's largely due to the universal DH. No more concern as to any home field advantage, one way or the other.
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm not at all convinced that the difference in draft position means much of anything compared to the massive economic incentive to drop payroll - its not the NBA/NFL where a top 5 pick can be a significant contributor immediately and/or be franchise altering.
Here's the expected value of draft picks through the first round. Yes it's from 2007 but it's the first one I found and the curve still holds true.

50103

source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/moneyballs-draft-advice-has-outlived-its-usefulness/
 

mikcou

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Here's the expected value of draft picks through the first round. Yes it's from 2007 but it's the first one I found and the curve still holds true.

View attachment 50103

source: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/moneyballs-draft-advice-has-outlived-its-usefulness/
I'm not sure what youre trying to say - that higher picks are better? Of course they are. This just proves the order of magnitude we're talking about. Fangraphs came up with the below for the value of the top 10 picks a few years back after regressing projected performance of the slots, $/WAR, and discounting it back - each slot is worth $1.5M other than the absolute top couple of picks or about a $20M difference between pick 10 and pick 1.

Of course the below assumes that the owners that arent putting competitive products on the field care about winning to begin with. I dont think theres much evidence there for the teams that are constantly in the cellar, which brings us to the perverse incentives that are created under revenue sharing. Teams are guaranteed $110M in revenue sharing a year (the average of 48% of local revenues).Each teams share of national media is $90M. So team revenues can easily be projected at $200M per year plus 52% of projected local revenue, but roughly 65% of the average team's revenues are guaranteed day 1 regardless of what they spend on payroll.

Realistically is $110M is average, I suspect that there are a number of teams where the number is $40-50M (for example the Braves reported total baseball revenue of $500M and I suspect the yankees, Red Sox, Mets, etc. are probably in a similar range so some teams need to be balancing this out). For those teams, not spending on payroll is the economic incentive - they just dont have an incentive to spend if 80% of their revenue is guaranteed. That incentive dwarfs $5-$10M of draft value, especially for teams that are concerned with winning to begin with (and theres obvious examples of this, e.g., Pitt using their high picks solely on guys that are cheap). Its a classic free-rider problem. To spend to win is entirely negative margin spending.

There are probably some teams (e.g., 2020 sox) that are incentivized solely by the pick, but thats true in all sports (including the NBA even with the lottery). I dont think the 2020 Sox is at all what the players are concerned about though - its the teams that are never competing; not the teams that occasionally run into bad years.

Pick Present Value of Pick ($/M)
1​
$45.5 M
2​
$41.6 M
3​
$38.2 M
4​
$34.8 M
5​
$31.9 M
6​
$29.3 M
7​
$27.4 M
8​
$25.9 M
9​
$24.5 M
10​
$23.3 M


https://blogs.fangraphs.com/an-update-on-how-to-value-draft-picks/
 

Petagine in a Bottle

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For teams in small markets, there’s even less of an incentive to try to win because the incremental revenue that comes from success (ticket sales, ad revenue from tv / radio / etc.) is on a much smaller scale than for the larger market teams.
 

JimD

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If anyone was wondering how much input Scott Boras had on the union side - I'm guessing the answer is, 'a lot':

The players know tanking and the Luxury Tax threshold and punishment have shrunk the pool of teams involved in the market. But Miller wasn’t antagonistic about it. He wanted to find ways for both sides to win.

“There’s a way that everyone can benefit,” Miller said when negotiations were still ongoing, intoning the words in a calm b-flat minor. Scherzer, by contrast, is a symphonic kettledrum; someone on management’s side described him as an excitable client of Scott Boras, who has a major role in the negotiations. “That’s just not fair,” says Miller. “Does Max get excited? Yes, but he’s passionate about everything, especially when he believes it’s about right and wrong.”
https://theathletic.com/3176936/2022/03/12/gammons-through-the-long-negotiations-andrew-millers-measured-caring-approach-proved-invaluable/
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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I'm not sure what youre trying to say - that higher picks are better? Of course they are. This just proves the order of magnitude we're talking about. Fangraphs came up with the below for the value of the top 10 picks a few years back after regressing projected performance of the slots, $/WAR, and discounting it back - each slot is worth $1.5M other than the absolute top couple of picks or about a $20M difference between pick 10 and pick 1.

Of course the below assumes that the owners that arent putting competitive products on the field care about winning to begin with. I dont think theres much evidence there for the teams that are constantly in the cellar, which brings us to the perverse incentives that are created under revenue sharing. Teams are guaranteed $110M in revenue sharing a year (the average of 48% of local revenues).Each teams share of national media is $90M. So team revenues can easily be projected at $200M per year plus 52% of projected local revenue, but roughly 65% of the average team's revenues are guaranteed day 1 regardless of what they spend on payroll.

Realistically is $110M is average, I suspect that there are a number of teams where the number is $40-50M (for example the Braves reported total baseball revenue of $500M and I suspect the yankees, Red Sox, Mets, etc. are probably in a similar range so some teams need to be balancing this out). For those teams, not spending on payroll is the economic incentive - they just dont have an incentive to spend if 80% of their revenue is guaranteed. That incentive dwarfs $5-$10M of draft value, especially for teams that are concerned with winning to begin with (and theres obvious examples of this, e.g., Pitt using their high picks solely on guys that are cheap). Its a classic free-rider problem. To spend to win is entirely negative margin spending.

There are probably some teams (e.g., 2020 sox) that are incentivized solely by the pick, but thats true in all sports (including the NBA even with the lottery). I dont think the 2020 Sox is at all what the players are concerned about though - its the teams that are never competing; not the teams that occasionally run into bad years.
You said, "I'm not at all convinced that the difference in draft position means much of anything compared to the massive economic incentive to drop payroll - its not the NBA/NFL where a top 5 pick can be a significant contributor immediately and/or be franchise altering."

My response is: while one top pick isn't going to change anything in baseball (as compared to, e.g. the NBA) yes, several top picks can be franchise altering.

While I agree that it looks like some franchises don't want to win, the teams that have or are tanking (i.e., Cubs, Astros, White Sox, and now BAL - to name a few) are doing so because the MLB talent acquisition system is set up so that only really foolproof way of building a contender (and which has the binus as you point out of being profitable for the owner) is to get top 5 draft picks over multiple seasons. We all know you can;t build a winner through FA. Drafting, it is my understanding, is basically luck after the first 10 picks. There is about to br an international draft. If you or I were running a team and wanted to win, we'd do exactly what HOU did and BAL is doing. It's a no-brainer.

To me that's the biggest structural issue baseball has yet to face. Yes there is an incentive to win it all but if your team is not a contender, there is no incentive to win games anymore. It makes for a dreadful product. And while I agree when you say there are teams that just want to turn a profit, adding tankers to those teams just compounds the problem IMO.
 

mikcou

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You said, "I'm not at all convinced that the difference in draft position means much of anything compared to the massive economic incentive to drop payroll - its not the NBA/NFL where a top 5 pick can be a significant contributor immediately and/or be franchise altering."

My response is: while one top pick isn't going to change anything in baseball (as compared to, e.g. the NBA) yes, several top picks can be franchise altering.

While I agree that it looks like some franchises don't want to win, the teams that have or are tanking (i.e., Cubs, Astros, White Sox, and now BAL - to name a few) are doing so because the MLB talent acquisition system is set up so that only really foolproof way of building a contender (and which has the binus as you point out of being profitable for the owner) is to get top 5 draft picks over multiple seasons. We all know you can;t build a winner through FA. Drafting, it is my understanding, is basically luck after the first 10 picks. There is about to br an international draft. If you or I were running a team and wanted to win, we'd do exactly what HOU did and BAL is doing. It's a no-brainer.

To me that's the biggest structural issue baseball has yet to face. Yes there is an incentive to win it all but if your team is not a contender, there is no incentive to win games anymore. It makes for a dreadful product. And while I agree when you say there are teams that just want to turn a profit, adding tankers to those teams just compounds the problem IMO.
I was making a comparison, which it seems like you agree with from your last sentence. If you are saying the draft provides some incentive to lose for teams that dont have good rosters, I dont think anyone would disagree with you. Its also not particularly unique or quite frankly something that I, as a fan, particularly care about. Some teams with once good rosters (e.g., the Cubs) are going to be bad while their roster turns over. Not committing a ton of cash in that period doesnt seem hugely problematic - theyre there in every league and if its only 3-4, it doesnt change the product that much. Teams that just dont ever try means you suddenly have 10 (or choose your number) that dont care. That's what destroys the product and also has a significant chilling effect on pay.

Id also strongly disagree that you somehow need top 5 picks to build a contender. That may be what Houston did, but we've done just fine (i.e., twice as many championships as any other team in the past twenty years) with the first top 5 pick in 30 years coming last year. The Yankees also seem to have won a number with one guy on their roster that was picked just out side of the top 5 in the past 30 years. The fact that a significant portion of the talent coming into the league does not enter through the draft has to by its nature make the draft less important than other sports (obviously this will eventually change in the coming years, but those impacts are close to a decade out).
 

Ale Xander

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I was making a comparison, which it seems like you agree with from your last sentence. If you are saying the draft provides some incentive to lose for teams that dont have good rosters, I dont think anyone would disagree with you. Its also not particularly unique or quite frankly something that I, as a fan, particularly care about. Some teams with once good rosters (e.g., the Cubs) are going to be bad while their roster turns over. Not committing a ton of cash in that period doesnt seem hugely problematic - theyre there in every league and if its only 3-4, it doesnt change the product that much. Teams that just dont ever try means you suddenly have 10 (or choose your number) that dont care. That's what destroys the product and also has a significant chilling effect on pay.

Id also strongly disagree that you somehow need top 5 picks to build a contender. That may be what Houston did, but we've done just fine (i.e., twice as many championships as any other team in the past twenty years) with the first top 5 pick in 30 years coming last year. The Yankees also seem to have won a number with one guy on their roster that was picked just out side of the top 5 in the past 30 years. The fact that a significant portion of the talent coming into the league does not enter through the draft has to by its nature make the draft less important than other sports (obviously this will eventually change in the coming years, but those impacts are close to a decade out).
Minor nit:
Giants have 3 WS titles last 20 years, not 2.
 

soxhop411

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Oh no. The poor billionaire will now need to spend more money!
View: https://twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1502712804478001155

if that makes it harder for this “small Market” owner to compete, then they should not have been able to own a team in the first place.

So sell the team !
Pirates 2021 payroll: $52.7 million
Orioles: $59.7 million
Guardians: $64.9 million
They, and four other teams, invested less in their roster last year than every team will be getting in TV/streaming revenue this season.
View: https://twitter.com/StelliniTweets/status/1501581330043318288
 
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ehaz

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jon abbey

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Also Rodon was getting around that even under the old CBA, terrible example.
 

soxhop411

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Heyman is such an enormous shit stain. The Giants were like $100M UNDER the tax before this deal what is he even talking about.
Oh. That’s an understatement
[View: https://mobile.twitter.com/JonHeyman/status/1502718031696384005

If you think the owner if the Marlins can realistically spend like the owner of the Mets you need to pay closer attention
If you are rich enough to own a sports team you should be forced to spend money to Make said team competitive.

Heyman is Such a shill for the owners it’s insane.
Also Rodon was getting around that even under the old CBA, terrible example.
 

nvalvo

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The Giants, since that's who we're talking about, have something like 50 members of their ownership group; the largest stake is only 25% of the team.

(This is part of why they have so many ownership scandals — that's a lot of rich dudes to occasionally hit their wives or bankroll the January 6th insurrection...)

If Miami's ownership group can't compete as constituted, despite getting ~$200m/annum in league TV deals and revenue sharing and a publicly-funded stadium (SF's ownership group built their own) — before they sell their own broadcast rights and tickets, maybe they need to sell some or all of the team to get better capitalized.
 

joe dokes

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According to the Glob, starting in 2023, teams will play every other MLB team at least one series every year. Fewer divisional games.
 

snowmanny

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The Giants, since that's who we're talking about, have something like 50 members of their ownership group; the largest stake is only 25% of the team.

(This is part of why they have so many ownership scandals — that's a lot of rich dudes to occasionally hit their wives or bankroll the January 6th insurrection...)

If Miami's ownership group can't compete as constituted, despite getting ~$200m/annum in league TV deals and revenue sharing and a publicly-funded stadium (SF's ownership group built their own) — before they sell their own broadcast rights and tickets, maybe they need to sell some or all of the team to get better capitalized.
Miami has a bigger metropolitan area population than does Boston. It shouldn’t be my problem if the fans don’t care and the team can’t market.
 

canderson

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How does that work with the 25 man roster? Constantly shutting guys on/off! Seems like a logistical nightmare. If I my there was a way to not worry about this!
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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How does that work with the 25 man roster? Constantly shutting guys on/off! Seems like a logistical nightmare. If I my there was a way to not worry about this!
They're going to have to put some kind of work-around in place such as a temporary unvaxxed reserve or IL list or something, akin to paternity/bereavement leave. Either that or petition the Canadian government for exemptions.
 

Ale Xander

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Any authority for MLB to move the team’s home games to Buffalo or Dunedin for 2021?

or perhaps every team should have solidarity and forfeit/not travel at all, to all their games in Rogers.
 

BigPapiLumber Co.

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Any authority for MLB to move the team’s home games to Buffalo or Dunedin for 2021?

or perhaps every team should have solidarity and forfeit/not travel at all, to all their games in Rogers.
So teams whose players have done the right/smart thing (for both their team and their community) should forfeit games in "solidarity" with teams with more conspiracy theory idiots?
 

Wingack

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Any authority for MLB to move the team’s home games to Buffalo or Dunedin for 2021?

or perhaps every team should have solidarity and forfeit/not travel at all, to all their games in Rogers.
Or how about pressure all players to get vaxxed? There not getting vaccinated will now put their teams at a disadvantage.

The fans of Toronto shouldn't miss out on their team because JD Martinez and Aaron Judge don't want to get vaccinated.
 

Ale Xander

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Or how about pressure all players to get vaxxed? There not getting vaccinated will now put their teams at a disadvantage.

The fans of Toronto shouldn't miss out on their team because JD Martinez and Aaron Judge don't want to get vaccinated.
I agree that all the players should get vaxxed, for their families, for their teammates, and for the community, but
1) if they haven’t done it by now, it’s not going to happen. (Unless MLB starts fining/suspending which I doubt and still may not be enough)
2) Toronto is the only team/venue that Canada has jurisdiction over
 

Wingack

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I agree that all the players should get vaxxed, for their families, for their teammates, and for the community, but
1) if they haven’t done it by now, it’s not going to happen. (Unless MLB starts fining/suspending which I doubt and still may not be enough)
2) Toronto is the only team/venue that Canada has jurisdiction over
Then those teams are just going to have to pay the price for their players decisions. And those unvaxxed players are going to have to deal with their choices in the clubhouse and in contract negotiations.

But it could be a big deal if some of the best players on the Yankees, Rays, and Red Sox are going to be sitting out 9 games against a division rival when things figure to be so close. One of those teams may miss out on the playoffs because of it.
 

Ale Xander

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Then those teams are just going to have to pay the price for their players decisions. And those unvaxxed players are going to have to deal with their choices in the clubhouse and in contract negotiations.

But it could be a big deal if some of the best players on the Yankees, Rays, and Red Sox are going to be sitting out 9 games against a division rival when things figure to be so close. One of those teams may miss out on the playoffs because of it.
Yes. It is certainly a big deal.

Another reason to have a balanced schedule
The AL East teams are at a real disadvantage here
 

Mighty Joe Young

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They're going to have to put some kind of work-around in place such as a temporary unvaxxed reserve or IL list or something, akin to paternity/bereavement leave. Either that or petition the Canadian government for exemptions.
Well .. I beg to disagree … until the government limits or eliminates the restriction for everyone else, giving an exemption to a bunch of rich, self entitled idiot athletes because Baseball is stupid. The restriction is in place for the NHL and that’s not an issue.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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Well .. I beg to disagree … until the government limits or eliminates the restriction for everyone else, giving an exemption to a bunch of rich, self entitled idiot athletes because Baseball is stupid. The restriction is in place for the NHL and that’s not an issue.
I didn't say that MLB was going to get the exemption, just that they could try to petition for it. Personally, I'd rather see MLB do absolutely nothing to accommodate the players/teams that will be affected by this. Teams can either get their players vaxxed or play short-handed at Rogers Centre.
 

lexrageorge

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Why should we care about the on-field fortunes of a team that has a bunch of unvaxxed players? There is an obvious solution, and if the players on that team don't care enough to help their team win games against a division rival, well, who gives a fuck if they miss the playoffs.
 

Ale Xander

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Why should we care about the on-field fortunes of a team that has a bunch of unvaxxed players? There is an obvious solution, and if the players on that team don't care enough to help their team win games against a division rival, well, who gives a fuck if they miss the playoffs.
But every team has unvaccinated players, no?
Would you prefer no playoffs/WS this year at all?
 

geoduck no quahog

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Logically, the team most impacted is the Blue Jays. Good for them if they limit that impact by having fewer un-vaxxed than the competition.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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They're going to have to put some kind of work-around in place such as a temporary unvaxxed reserve or IL list or something, akin to paternity/bereavement leave. Either that or petition the Canadian government for exemptions.
Suspended list without pay for the games they are not able to play through choices of their own.
 

jon abbey

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Suspended list without pay for the games they are not able to play through choices of their own.
I wonder if this will become a factor for teams close to luxury tax lines, for instance 9/162 games for Aaron Judge on a $17M salary is around $1M.
 

YTF

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Suspended list without pay for the games they are not able to play through choices of their own.
Unvaxxed players won't be paid nor will they get service time for games missed due to being unvaccinated.
https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/unvaccinated-mlb-players-wont-be-paid-or-allowed-to-play-in-games-in-toronto-per-report/

According to Boston television anchor Duke Castiglione, the new Collective Bargaining Agreement mandates that players who haven't received their COVID-19 vaccinations will not be allowed to play games in Canada. Those players will instead be placed on the restricted list, meaning they won't receive payment or service time for the games they miss.
 

Sad Sam Jones

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I fully support players not receiving pay for insubordination. I'm half expecting a controversy where an anti-vaxxer tries to avoid public scrutiny by attempting to get his team to go along with a bereavement story when they head to Toronto… and I can already see the controversy at the end of the year when an unvaccinated MVP candidate(s) loses votes because he chose not to be available in all games for his team.
 

Mighty Joe Young

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I fully support players not receiving pay for insubordination. I'm half expecting a controversy where an anti-vaxxer tries to avoid public scrutiny by attempting to get his team to go along with a bereavement story when they head to Toronto… and I can already see the controversy at the end of the year when an unvaccinated MVP candidate(s) loses votes because he chose not to be available in all games for his team.
Or best/worst case scenario where the Sox are in a playoff with the Blue Jays.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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You literally said who gives a fuck if they (teams with unvaccinated players) don’t make the playoffs

what if it’s every team?
If every team has unvaccinated players, then teams with unvaccinated players are going to make the playoffs. Vaccination status is only going to keep players out of Toronto, not the post-season. If teams don't make the post-season because they lose short-handed games in Toronto, I agree with lexrageorge: I don't give a fuck.
 

Ale Xander

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If every team has unvaccinated players, then teams with unvaccinated players are going to make the playoffs. Vaccination status is only going to keep players out of Toronto, not the post-season. If teams don't make the post-season because they lose short-handed games in Toronto, I agree with lexrageorge: I don't give a fuck.
But some teams play more games in Toronto than others. Houston plays 3 games in Toronto and Boston plays 10. They both have unvaccinated players AFAIK. It's inherently unfair in the wildcard race as long as there's an unbalanced schedule.
 

Red(s)HawksFan

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But some teams play more games in Toronto than others. Houston plays 3 games in Toronto and Boston plays 10. They both have unvaccinated players AFAIK. It's inherently unfair in the wildcard race as long as there's an unbalanced schedule.
It's only unfair if players remain unvaccinated. There's a choice involved here. If the Sox get on the roster everyone vaxxed, then they play 10 games in Toronto at full strength while the Astros play short-handed. Who's at a disadvantage then?

You'd have a case here regarding the unbalanced schedule if it was something more unsolveable like Canada banning all left-handed people from crossing their borders. That would be inherently unfair to the teams in the AL East.
 

lexrageorge

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You literally said who gives a fuck if they (teams with unvaccinated players) don’t make the playoffs

what if it’s every team?
How could it be "every" team? Top 12 teams make the playoffs.

If the Sox lose out because they have more idiot anti-vaxxers than Houston, well then Chaim will need to make some changes in the offseason, because CoVid is never, ever going away in our lifetimes.
 

Ale Xander

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How could it be "every" team? Top 12 teams make the playoffs.

If the Sox lose out because they have more idiot anti-vaxxers than Houston, well then Chaim will need to make some changes in the offseason, because CoVid is never, ever going away in our lifetimes.
Every team has non-vaxxed players