MLB Team Mount Rushmore "Franchise Four"

bankshot1

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http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/events/all_star/y2015/franchise_four.jsp
 
 
Major League Baseball today announced the launch of the “Franchise Four” campaign, which will allow fans to vote for the most impactful players who best represent each Major League franchise and several other significant categories in the sport’s history.  The winners of the month-long period of fan voting on MLB.com/FranchiseFour will be announced during pregame ceremonies before Baseball’s 86th All-Star Game on Tuesday, July 14th at Great American Ball Park in Cincinnati on FOX.
 
 
Lots of time killing opportunities here
 
All 30 teams plus 
 
Negro Leaguers
MLB Pioneers
Greatest Living
 
I thought it interesting that MLB included, Rose for the Reds and Bonds as one of the choices in "Greatest Living" Pedro is also listed there. I wrote in Yaz
 
In any case who do you like?
 
 
Edit: I think Rose is a lock for Red voters to express their feelings, and as the AS Game is in Cincy, one has to wonder if MLB lifts the Hall of Fame shroud by welcoming Pete back to the fold.
 

Lose Remerswaal

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We did a "greatest hitter and greatest pitcher" of all time for each team thing here a few years ago.  A quick search didn't bring it up for me, but it would be fun to compare what we got with what this comes up with
 

bankshot1

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As noted in OP, Bonds gets some love, as he's listed twice, thrice, once in Greatest Living, and again as a  Giant and Pirate. Clemens seems to have gotten stiffed.
 
SF Giants is a tough ballot.
 

cwright

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Article is up on MLB here.
 
Greatest Living Players
Hank Aaron
Johnny Bench
Sandy Koufax
Willie Mays
 
Greatest Negro Leagues Players
Cool Papa Bell
Josh Gibson
Buck O'Neil
Satchel Paige
 
Greatest Pioneers
Walter Johnson
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
 
I won't post all of the franchises, but...
Red Sox
Pedro Martinez
David Ortiz
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
 

Savin Hillbilly

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I think the voters did a much better job than they might have, although there are a few anomalies. Surprisingly, some of the anomalies favor older players over newer ones. For instance, the choice of Richie Ashburn over Chase Utley for the Phillies surprised me. They're comparable talents, so I would expect voters to go for the current guy.
 
In the other direction, it's hard to justify placing Reggie and Eck over Grove and Eddie Collins for the A's, or Posey over Mel Ott for the Giants. The expected bias in favor of current stars is clearly operating in the latter case, and in both cases, there might be a tendency to overlook guys who played for the franchise in a previous location.
 
Still, not too shabby overall.
 

Al Zarilla

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cwright said:
Article is up on MLB here.
 
Greatest Living Players
Hank Aaron
Johnny Bench
Sandy Koufax
Willie Mays
 
Greatest Negro Leagues Players
Cool Papa Bell
Josh Gibson
Buck O'Neil
Satchel Paige
 
Greatest Pioneers
Walter Johnson
Nap Lajoie
Christy Mathewson
Cy Young
 
I won't post all of the franchises, but...
Red Sox
Pedro Martinez
David Ortiz
Ted Williams
Carl Yastrzemski
Really surprised not seeing Honus Wagner in the four greatest pioneers list. Great hitting shortstop, considered by some the greatest position player of the deadball era, including Cobb, and no bad reputation (for Honus) that I've ever read. There's even that story that he refused to allow production of his T206 baseball card because it was being produced by a cigarette company, and he didn't want children to have to buy cigarette packs to get his card. I would think Honus is 1 - 2 with Cy Young in the greatest pioneers category. 
 
 

Max Power

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How many living players are better than Sandy Koufax? Just for pitchers, I'd go with Pedro, The Big Unit, Clemens, Maddux, and maybe Seaver. Open it up to hitters, and I'd include Bonds and Rickey Henderson.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Max Power said:
How many living players are better than Sandy Koufax? Just for pitchers, I'd go with Pedro, The Big Unit, Clemens, Maddux, and maybe Seaver. Open it up to hitters, and I'd include Bonds and Rickey Henderson.
 
I suspect, looking at the ages of the players chosen, that part of the thinking here was to honor guys who may not be around that much longer.
 

SeanBerry

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Rollie Fingers for the Brewers pissed me off quite a bit. I know he won a Cy Young but he threw 259 innings for Milwaukee and the last 55 were garbage.
 
If you want to ignore Braun, then fine. But it should have gone to Teddy Higuera then. 
 
For a franchise that is almost 50 years old, they have had a horrible history.
 
Omar Vizquel for CLE was really fucking dumb too.
 

Spacemans Bong

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Savin Hillbilly said:
I think the voters did a much better job than they might have, although there are a few anomalies. Surprisingly, some of the anomalies favor older players over newer ones. For instance, the choice of Richie Ashburn over Chase Utley for the Phillies surprised me. They're comparable talents, so I would expect voters to go for the current guy.
 
In the other direction, it's hard to justify placing Reggie and Eck over Grove and Eddie Collins for the A's, or Posey over Mel Ott for the Giants. The expected bias in favor of current stars is clearly operating in the latter case, and in both cases, there might be a tendency to overlook guys who played for the franchise in a previous location.
 
Still, not too shabby overall.
Ashburn was a positively beloved color man on Phillies TV broadcasts for decades - that's undoubtedly why.
 

bosockboy

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Savin Hillbilly said:
I think the voters did a much better job than they might have, although there are a few anomalies. Surprisingly, some of the anomalies favor older players over newer ones. For instance, the choice of Richie Ashburn over Chase Utley for the Phillies surprised me. They're comparable talents, so I would expect voters to go for the current guy.
 
In the other direction, it's hard to justify placing Reggie and Eck over Grove and Eddie Collins for the A's, or Posey over Mel Ott for the Giants. The expected bias in favor of current stars is clearly operating in the latter case, and in both cases, there might be a tendency to overlook guys who played for the franchise in a previous location.
 
Still, not too shabby overall.
 
 
Posey being the face of a team with three rings in 5 years is probably the source of that.
 
Other quibble, growing up in KC it's hard to see Hal McRae not in their four...i would've picked him over Sabes or Quiz,
 

CaptainLaddie

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SeanBerry said:
Rollie Fingers for the Brewers pissed me off quite a bit. I know he won a Cy Young but he threw 259 innings for Milwaukee and the last 55 were garbage.
 
If you want to ignore Braun, then fine. But it should have gone to Teddy Higuera then. 
 
For a franchise that is almost 50 years old, they have had a horrible history.
 
Omar Vizquel for CLE was really fucking dumb too.
 

You're 100% correct here.  Kinda stunning.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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bosockboy said:
 
Posey being the face of a team with three rings in 5 years is probably the source of that.
 
 
Good point. It's much like the case for Papi, though without the decade-plus longevity part.
 
And it shouldn't be that surprising to see Ott overlooked; he probably belongs on any All-Underappreciated squad. About the only guy in the truly elite, 100+ WAR stratum who might rival him for forgotten-ness is Eddie Collins.
 

DJnVa

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Good point. It's much like the case for Papi, though without the decade-plus longevity part.
 
Papi has a hell of a lot better case than Posey--top 10 in franchise history in OPS, games, hits, runs, total bases, doubles, HRs, RBI, BB, runs created, WAR and he shows up on single-season lists in things like doubles, HRs (1st and 3rd), RBI, XBH (2nd, 3rd, and 4th). Add in his iconic HRs and hitting .455 in the World Series (including .688!!! in 2013) and there's a hell of a lot more to him than just being a really good player on a team that won the Series a few times.
 

Lars The Wanderer

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DrewDawg said:
 
Papi has a hell of a lot better case than Posey--top 10 in franchise history in OPS, games, hits, runs, total bases, doubles, HRs, RBI, BB, runs created, WAR and he shows up on single-season lists in things like doubles, HRs (1st and 3rd), RBI, XBH (2nd, 3rd, and 4th). Add in his iconic HRs and hitting .455 in the World Series (including .688!!! in 2013) and there's a hell of a lot more to him than just being a really good player on a team that won the Series a few times.
 
I think this is fair. Posey hasn't really had the opportunity to compile those type of numbers yet. I mean, he's only been in the league 5 years; and one of those wiped out by a severe injury. He does have an impressive resume so far though: 3 rings, MVP, RoY, batting champ.
 

Spacemans Bong

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I think the possibility that Posey could legitimately deserve to be part of the four 15 years from now is clouding how bad of a choice it is. The Giants literally have multiple Hall of Famers in every position, so a guy who has played less than 700 MLB games has no business being included, even if he has ringzzzz. I'm not that surprised the fans overlooked Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott or Carl Hubbell, but I am pretty surprised they looked over Juan Marichal, who has a freakin' statue at the ballpark.
 

DanoooME

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Spacemans Bong said:
I think the possibility that Posey could legitimately deserve to be part of the four 15 years from now is clouding how bad of a choice it is. The Giants literally have multiple Hall of Famers in every position, so a guy who has played less than 700 MLB games has no business being included, even if he has ringzzzz. I'm not that surprised the fans overlooked Christy Mathewson, Mel Ott or Carl Hubbell, but I am pretty surprised they looked over Juan Marichal, who has a freakin' statue at the ballpark.
 
Yeah, the Giants fans probably focused on guys who played in San Francisco, as opposed to New York.  But Marichal missing is a surprise.  And you can't kick off any of the other 3.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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DanoooME said:
 
Yeah, the Giants fans probably focused on guys who played in San Francisco, as opposed to New York.  But Marichal missing is a surprise.  And you can't kick off any of the other 3.
 
You could certainly kick off McCovey for either Ott or Mathewson, both of whom were significantly better players. 
 

grimshaw

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I'll go by division.
 
AL East
No real quibbles, except for Joe Carter being one of the 4 for the Jays.  He only played 7 seasons for them, and was an awful baseball player by his 4th year (7.5 WAR over his 7 years, a huge chunk he coughed back towards the end).  Obviously he had one of the 3 most clutch home runs in history, but he was really just a mediocre run producer in an era when RBI were a big thing. I'd go with Stieb or Bautista instead.
 
Boggs probably should have been one of the 8 nominees over Jim Ed.  And Roger Clemens actually existed on the team until the PED era was in full swing.  
 
AL Central
White Sox -Harold Baines over Eddie Collins is an awful choice.  I mean Harold Baines??  
 
Indians -I don't have as much of an issue with Vizquel over Lajoie and the rest.  Lofton was the only other guy who maybe got overlooked.  Vizquel was sort of their Ozzie Smith for a long ass time.
 
Twins - I get Kirby Puckett because of his popularity in Minnesota - but fuck that guy with his domestic violence issues and non-Hall worthiness.  Walter Johnson is probably the worst slight of them all.
 
AL West
Angels - Vladi's just . . . no.  Not an Angel.  Bobby Grich or Downing should be there instead.
 
Seattle - It's crazy how many great players the M's have had in their relatively short history.  The only snub is maybe Langston, but only in the 5-8 slots.  Can't really get too worked up about RJ when the other guys ought to be in the Hall as well and were in Seattle for longer.
 
Texas - Palmeiro over Young maybe, but understandable due to Young's popularity.  Possibly Buddy Bell over Josh Hamilton.
 
NL East
Florida - I'd go Beckett over Sheffy.
 
Mets - I would vote for Gooden over Piazza just because Gooden was such a beast at such a young age and became not useful after leaving them.  Piazza didn't have his best years in NY.
 
Phillies - Agree with others that you have to find room for Chase Utley.  Future Hall of Famer who never wanted to go anywhere else.  I'd replace Roberts with him since they have Carlton covering the pitching.
 
Les Expo - Close call, but I'd give Steve Rogers the edge over Dawson.
 
NL Central 
 
Cubs - For better or worse, Sammy Sosa should be there.
 
Brewers - Probably Braun over Cooper for me despite douchiness.
 
Pirates - Bonds over Stargell.  It's my same argument with Clemens. 
 
Cardinals - Pujols over Brock.  Pujols could have retired before joining the Angels and still been a first ballot HoF guy.
 
NL West
 
Giants - Ott or Mathewson over McCovey
 

Spacemans Bong

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
You could certainly kick off McCovey for either Ott or Mathewson, both of whom were significantly better players. 
Willie McCovey is the most beloved San Francisco Giant of all time. There is no fucking way he was getting booted out in favor of two guys practically no one voting had seen play.
 

Savin Hillbilly

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Spacemans Bong said:
Willie McCovey is the most beloved San Francisco Giant of all time. There is no fucking way he was getting booted out in favor of two guys practically no one voting had seen play.
 
Of course not. I didn't mean it was likely, I meant it would be appropriate. It was a response to "you can't kick off any of the other 3" which sounded more like a statement about merit than popularity.
 

DJnVa

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grimshaw said:
AL West
Angels - Vladi's just . . . no.  Not an Angel.  Bobby Grich or Downing should be there instead.
 
That seems rather dismissive of Vladimir.
 
He played 850 games as an Angel, he's their franchise leader in career batting average, second in slugging (behind Trout), second in OPS (behind Trout), top 10 in runs scored, hits, total bases (21 less than Grich in 1200 fewer PAs), doubles, HRs, RBI, etc.
 
I'm not saying Downing or Grich wouldn't be good choices, but Vlad deserves more than the "just...no" dismissal.
 
 

grimshaw

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DrewDawg said:
 
That seems rather dismissive of Vladimir.
 
He played 850 games as an Angel, he's their franchise leader in career batting average, second in slugging (behind Trout), second in OPS (behind Trout), top 10 in runs scored, hits, total bases (21 less than Grich in 1200 fewer PAs), doubles, HRs, RBI, etc.
 
I'm not saying Downing or Grich wouldn't be good choices, but Vlad deserves more than the "just...no" dismissal.
 
It's not a bad point and he was better than I had thought with them - I'm just looking at it more like Vladi the Angel is similar to Gretzky the LA King.  I associate face of the franchise as a guy who either came up in the system or very early in his career, or had his best seasons over a considerable period of time.

FWIW - the LA Times ran an article about the top 10 Angels in history as voted on by the fans, and neither Grich nor Vladi made the top 10.. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/03/sports/la-sp-sn-10-greatest-angels-nolan-ryan-20130603
 

Eric1984

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For Texas, I don't see how you leave off Juan Gonzalez. He was a monster there - 2 MVPs. He was a world class dick and he didn't do much after he left, but he and Pudge are the 2 best position players they've ever had (at least among those who spent significant time there). Definitely belongs over Beltre.
 

cwright

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For anyone who's interested, MLB Network has Bob Costas interviewing Koufax, Bench, Mays, and Aaron.  It's airing right now.
 

barbed wire Bob

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grimshaw said:
It's not a bad point and he was better than I had thought with them - I'm just looking at it more like Vladi the Angel is similar to Gretzky the LA King.  I associate face of the franchise as a guy who either came up in the system or very early in his career, or had his best seasons over a considerable period of time.

FWIW - the LA Times ran an article about the top 10 Angels in history as voted on by the fans, and neither Grich nor Vladi made the top 10.. http://articles.latimes.com/2013/jun/03/sports/la-sp-sn-10-greatest-angels-nolan-ryan-20130603
It's funny but I never think of Nolan Ryan as an Angel even though he played for eight seasons there. I always associate him with either the Mets or the Astros. Interestingly enough, Ryan was named one of the top four players on three different teams.
http://blog.chron.com/ultimateastros/2015/07/14/nolan-ryan-named-as-one-of-four-top-players-for-three-different-teams/#34314101=0
 

Spacemans Bong

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Savin Hillbilly said:
 
Of course not. I didn't mean it was likely, I meant it would be appropriate. It was a response to "you can't kick off any of the other 3" which sounded more like a statement about merit than popularity.
 
Can it be both? I mean, McCovey is a deserving Hall of Famer, as well as enormously popular. There might be only 4-5 teams whose Franchise Fours are all better than Willie Mac. So it's not surprising he would be voted in even if Ott, Mathewson or Carl Hubbell (we keep forgetting to mention him) would be better choices statistically or historically. Hardly anybody is alive who saw those guys play and even though the Giants do take their NY history seriously, it's not a big crime for the fans to vote four SF players instead. 
 
It's that they voted a current player who is by no means a lock for the Hall over an iconic player like Juan Marichal. Every Giants fan in SF knows who Juan Marichal is, so it's disappointingly fanboyish to vote for Posey over him. I'll go against the grain here and say picking David Ortiz over Wade Boggs or Roger Clemens is a poor move, but we all know there's baggage there. Well, Juan Marichal doesn't have that baggage, and Posey's an even weaker pick than Big Papi. 
 

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It's funny but I never think of Nolan Ryan as an Angel even though he played for eight seasons there. I always associate him with either the Mets or the Astros.
 
 
The Mets? He pitched 510 innings there compared to over 2100 as an Angel. 
 

keninten

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Spacemans Bong said:
 
Can it be both? I mean, McCovey is a deserving Hall of Famer, as well as enormously popular. There might be only 4-5 teams whose Franchise Fours are all better than Willie Mac. So it's not surprising he would be voted in even if Ott, Mathewson or Carl Hubbell (we keep forgetting to mention him) would be better choices statistically or historically. Hardly anybody is alive who saw those guys play and even though the Giants do take their NY history seriously, it's not a big crime for the fans to vote four SF players instead. 
 
It's that they voted a current player who is by no means a lock for the Hall over an iconic player like Juan Marichal. Every Giants fan in SF knows who Juan Marichal is, so it's disappointingly fanboyish to vote for Posey over him. I'll go against the grain here and say picking David Ortiz over Wade Boggs or Roger Clemens is a poor move, but we all know there's baggage there. Well, Juan Marichal doesn't have that baggage, and Posey's an even weaker pick than Big Papi. 
Does hitting another player with a bat count as baggage? He and Roseboro became friends and all but I didn`t really like him after the incident, even after he joined the Sox. I`d like to hear what the Giant fans on here think about him.