MLB’s sign-stealing controversy broadens: Sources say the Red Sox used video replay room illegally in 2018

Wingack

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Any chance Beltran had a hand in helping the Yankees come up with something for sign stealing in 2019?
He was hired in Dec 2018 as a "special advisor" to Cashman and the following season the yankees get huge contributions from guys you wouldn't expect. I mean think about all the guys they hit on, it's amazing.
Something to think about.
I mean anything is possible. But this just seems like an attempt to get the spotlight of Boston (I mean, it's on Houston, but the spotlight is coming to Boston next).

The Yankees hired Beltran because he is a good baseball guy and has been a very popular clubhouse guy, just like Cora is. They didn't hire him because he knows how to cheat, just like Boston didn't hire Cora because he was the chief cheater in Houston.

Beltran wasn't really in a position to implement anything, he wasn't a day-to-day coach or manager. If he even suggested something illegal, the Yankees could just have said no.
 

ngruz25

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Wristbands, cards, wearables... the simplest solution is not inventing a new medium, it’s encoding the message better. A catcher with a good system could literally yell the sign for all to hear without concern.
I think the simplest system would be to prohibit using technology to steal signs and then come down hard on the parties that continue to break that rule.
 

jon abbey

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Any chance Beltran had a hand in helping the Yankees come up with something for sign stealing in 2019?
He was hired in Dec 2018 as a "special advisor" to Cashman and the following season the yankees get huge contributions from guys you wouldn't expect. I mean think about all the guys they hit on, it's amazing.
Something to think about.
Yeah, he was definitely doing something, but my guess is that it was more defense to protect against BOS/HOU since he knew exactly how they were doing things. That Cora post-game interview in the London series makes it pretty clear Cora was at least convinced Beltran was doing something for NY, but as we said a few months ago, offense or defense isn't clear.

The huge contributions from guys you wouldn't expect is a totally different thing, though, that started well before Beltran showed up and is because NY has been incredible the last 4-5 years at scouting other teams' players and finding hidden gems. It's not just Voit and Urshela and Tauchman and Didi and Hicks before them, it's minor league talent like Mike King or Luis Gil, both of whom blossomed after NY traded for them.
 

jon abbey

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Uh huh. Sure it is. That’s the ticket.
I mean, the Dodgers have done the same thing, poured huge amounts of money into their MLB scouting department (scouting the other organizations) and it's worked for them too, Tampa Bay too to an extent.
 

E5 Yaz

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Beltran wasn't really in a position to implement anything, he wasn't a day-to-day coach or manager. If he even suggested something illegal, the Yankees could just have said no.
"Recently hired as the New York Mets manager, Beltran is the only named player in the report–after MLB investigators interviewed 23 current and former Astros players. Beltran was at the heart of growing Houston’s sign-stealing scheme into a more elaborate, full-time system. Beltran spent the first three years of the Replay Era with the Yankees, other than two months with Texas. When did he learn about using the cameras and monitors to steal signs? How can he convince baseball now as one of its stewards that he can be trusted?

"The first thing baseball investigators do when they interview subjects is to issue a warning: we are going to find out the truth, and if we find out you are not telling us the truth, you will feel the full wrath of the commissioner’s office. Sources said that is why former Braves GM John Coppolella was banned for life in the international scouting scandal. Beltran apparently came clean to investigators. Now he has to do something nobody has done yet in this scandal: take ownership. Come clean in public.

"Manfred has muzzled clubs, instructing them they are not allowed to comment on the discipline of another club. But Beltran, as the only player Manfred named in the report, gets no such cover."

 

Wingack

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"Recently hired as the New York Mets manager, Beltran is the only named player in the report–after MLB investigators interviewed 23 current and former Astros players. Beltran was at the heart of growing Houston’s sign-stealing scheme into a more elaborate, full-time system. Beltran spent the first three years of the Replay Era with the Yankees, other than two months with Texas. When did he learn about using the cameras and monitors to steal signs? How can he convince baseball now as one of its stewards that he can be trusted?

"The first thing baseball investigators do when they interview subjects is to issue a warning: we are going to find out the truth, and if we find out you are not telling us the truth, you will feel the full wrath of the commissioner’s office. Sources said that is why former Braves GM John Coppolella was banned for life in the international scouting scandal. Beltran apparently came clean to investigators. Now he has to do something nobody has done yet in this scandal: take ownership. Come clean in public.

"Manfred has muzzled clubs, instructing them they are not allowed to comment on the discipline of another club. But Beltran, as the only player Manfred named in the report, gets no such cover."

I'm aware of all this. I don't know how it refutes what I said.
 

Wingack

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It means that he might be more involved than you're willing to believe
I didn't see any mention of what his role was as a special assistant to Cashman, and how that had to do with sign stealing on the field. Indications are that the Yankees cut it out after warnings were issued, if that proves to be not true, heads should roll in the Bronx, but right now it appears the Yankees heeded MLB's warning.

The whole thing in Houston seems to me like it was cooked up by Cora and Beltran, those two guys were close, they both are from Puerto Rico, they played on the Mets together. There isn't any evidence Beltran has or could have done anything with the Yankees, but if he did there should be consequences.


from MLB forum
Again, I don't see how that refutes anything I said.
 

E5 Yaz

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I didn't see any mention of what his role was as a special assistant to Cashman, and how that had to do with sign stealing on the field. Indications are that the Yankees cut it out after warnings were issued, if that proves to be not true, heads should roll in the Bronx, but right now it appears the Yankees heeded MLB's warning.

The whole thing in Houston seems to me like it was cooked up by Cora and Beltran, those two guys were close, they both are from Puerto Rico, they played on the Mets together. There isn't any evidence Beltran has or could have done anything with the Yankees, but if he did there should be consequences.




Again, I don't see how that refutes anything I said.
Yes, you're probably right. The Yankees, as always, are totally innocent
 

JCizzle

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Cool evidence.

When you find out how Beltran as a special assistant to Cashman was able to influence how Boone was running his clubhouse please, let us know.
Between that and Logan Morrison's accusation, it is becoming less and less likely that they were simply being an upstanding citizen 'defending' against other organizations. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure the story will leak from some spurned ex-player in a couple years.
 

EvilEmpire

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Cool evidence.

When you find out how Beltran as a special assistant to Cashman was able to influence how Boone was running his clubhouse please, let us know.
Yeah. It is certainly possible that the Yankees did something after the warning was issued. If they did, Manfred will hammer them too. I'm sure he'd like to spread the discipline around and try to curtail as much of this sort of thing in the future as possible. Better that than to have secrets come out after he thinks the issue is handled. Secrets are hard to keep with this sort of thing and I doubt anyone interviewed by MLB would risk holding anything back.

So we'll see.

I can understand why Sox fans would hope that the Yankees and everyone else was doing it too. Whatever the Sox were actually doing after the warning memo came out.
 

Wingack

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Between that and Logan Morrison's accusation, it is becoming less and less likely that they were simply being an upstanding citizen 'defending' against other organizations. I mean, c'mon. I'm sure the story will leak from some spurned ex-player in a couple years.
Sure, it may happen. It also might be the case that Manfred starts investigating the Yankees too and they are found to be the dirtiest of them all. But I have to laugh when Sox fans are like "b-b-b-but the Yankees" when there isn't any smoke about them doing anything, or MLB hinting that they are going to be investigating. And of course there will always be a strain of Sox fan that are so blinded by Yankee hatred (even though they have crushed the Yankees the past 15 years) that they can't even imagine a scenario where the Red Sox were cheating and the Yankees weren't. Or at least that the Yankees heeded MLB's warning and the Sox didn't.

Yeah. It is certainly possible that the Yankees did something after the warning was issued. If they did, Manfred will hammer them too. I'm sure he'd like to spread the discipline around and try to curtail as much of this sort of thing in the future as possible. Better that than to have secrets come out after he thinks the issue is handled. Secrets are hard to keep with this sort of thing and I doubt anyone interviewed by MLB would risk holding anything back.

So we'll see.

I can understand why Sox fans would hope that the Yankees and everyone else was doing it too. Whatever the Sox were actually doing after the warning memo came out.
Manfred will get the Yankees if they did anything wrong. But that won't stop people on this board from posting "of course, MLB is going to Yankees slide!!!!!" if they are found to be innocent.
 

Plympton91

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from MLB forum: “Beltran rumored fired”
If true, two of baseball’s small fraternity of minority managers get taken out by this scandal.

That’s not good.

Watching MLB Network coverage, and the stupid reporters are still parroting the whole, “Oh poor AJ Hinch tried tried tried to stop it! But takes the fall because he couldn’t.”

I mean really people? Does MLB have those guys on its parrot-roll too?

If Hinch wanted it stopped, it would have stopped. That Hinch didn’t stop it, conveys to Cora that running the program is not a request, but an order.

And if we’re letting the players off for “just following orders” then we shouldn’t be going after bench coaches either.

Even if I accept the idea that Beltran instigated this, the role of MLB should have been to find out who ordered the sign stealing continue. It was not the f’ing bench coach. If Luhnow truly didn’t know ( cough bullshit cough cough) then Hinch is the most culpable person for failure to control his subordinates and failure to inform his bosses. If he thought Luhnow would sweep it under the rug, he should have gone to Crane.

This report is written in an attempt to contain the damage from what we should now dub “the sign stealing era” to the two publicly stained franchises, who conveniently have recently done other slimy things as well (Astros-embraced wife beaters; Red Sox-Apple Watch and LA signing bonus bundling). Anyone who believes Cora instituted and maintained this system without the full blessing of the Astros manager and front office is someone I want to play poker against, regularly.
 
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OurF'ingCity

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there isn't any smoke about them doing anything
I actually agree with your larger point that for now the suggestion that the Yankees are going to be punished is pure speculation/wish-casting by Sox fans, but I’d hardly say there’s “no smoke” given that (a) the Yankees definitely used the replay room to steal signs at least up through the MLB warning in 2017; (b) the Yankees were the immediate next employer of Carlos Beltran, who is acknowledged as the co-ringleader of the Astros scheme; and (c) a current MLB player specifically implicated the Yankees.

That all ultimately might mean nothing but after the Astros and Red Sox, there is more circumstantial evidence implicating the Yankees than any other MLB team.
 

JCizzle

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Manfred will get the Yankees if they did anything wrong. But that won't stop people on this board from posting "of course, MLB is going to Yankees slide!!!!!" if they are found to be innocent.
Is it really shocking that a board of Red Sox fans predominantly hates the Yankees?
 

Wingack

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I actually agree with your larger point that for now the suggestion that the Yankees are going to be punished is pure speculation/wish-casting by Sox fans, but I’d hardly say there’s “no smoke” given that (a) the Yankees definitely used the replay room to steal signs at least up through the MLB warning in 2017; (b) the Yankees were the immediate next employer of Carlos Beltran, who is acknowledged as the co-ringleader of the Astros scheme; and (c) a current MLB player specifically implicated the Yankees.

That all ultimately might mean nothing but after the Astros and Red Sox, there is more circumstantial evidence implicating the Yankees than any other MLB team.
I think MLB isn't concerned about part A. If they heeded the warning, I think MLB is happy with that. Regarding B, MLB should look into Beltran's time at the Yankees. I am 100% fine with that. I still have a hard time seeing how Beltran's role as special assistant to Cashman leads to impacting how Boone runs what is going on in his clubhouse. Regarding C, yeah LoMo said something, but I think there needs to more (and there may be), but I think MLB knows what players are talking and what is out there about what teams and whether those players have any evidence.

Is it really shocking that a board of Red Sox fans predominantly hates the Yankees?
No, but were are a smart bunch here, that kind of stamping of the feet should be beneath us.
 

jon abbey

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(b) the Yankees were the immediate next employer of Carlos Beltran, who is acknowledged as the co-ringleader of the Astros scheme; and (c) a current MLB player specifically implicated the Yankees.
Nitpicking on the first, but Beltran sat out 2018 after being passed over for NY manager by Boone, and NY hired him in Dec 2018. Normally that wouldn't matter much but the specific years are crucial in this.

Also, a lot of attention being paid to an Instagram post that Logan Morrison deleted pretty quickly, but it's worth nothing that 1) when he was on TB, he bitched publicly about Gary Sanchez being selected to the Home Run Derby over him (and then Sanchez knocked out Stanton), 2) he put up good stats for a few months in Scranton last year but NY never seemed to even consider promoting him, which had to be pretty frustrating, and 3) he never actually played for NY, as EE said before.

Obviously all I know is what's been public so far, NY certainly could end up as guilty as anyone.
 

JCizzle

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Nitpicking on the first, but Beltran sat out 2018 after being passed over for NY manager by Boone, and NY hired him in Dec 2018. Normally that wouldn't matter much but the specific years are crucial in this.

Also, a lot of attention being paid to an Instagram post that Logan Morrison deleted pretty quickly, but it's worth nothing that 1) when he was on TB, he bitched publicly about Gary Sanchez being selected to the Home Run Derby over him (and then Sanchez knocked out Stanton), 2) he put up good stats for a few months in Scranton last year but NY never seemed to even consider promoting him, which had to be pretty frustrating, and 3) he never actually played for NY, as EE said before.

Obviously all I know is what's been public so far, NY certainly could end up as guilty as anyone.
He's probably friends with a number of players that played for the Yankees, Dodgers, and most other teams. I don't think he needs to be on the 25 man to know stuff. Verducci reported that 8 teams came up in the investigation and Morrison's post seems to validate that.
 
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InstaFace

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Sabathia thinks the Yankees were "cheated" out of a title, in that the 2017 ALCS could have gone either way.

Surely he wouldn't say that if he were in a glass house, would he?
 

jon abbey

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That 2017 ALCS was a really strange series, HOU won all four home games by a combined 15-2 and NY won the three at YS in between by a combined 19-5.
 

jon abbey

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The Yankees lost that series because they only scored one run combined in game 6 and game 7.
Yes, and one combined in games 1 and 2, part of what I was saying.

Honestly I am not implying anything specific but that has to be among the most lopsided home/away run splits in seven game series history, hence 'a really strange series'. Maybe both teams were just really good at cheating at home, NY did go 6-0 at home that postseason, 1-6 on the road with the big game 5 ALDS win in CLE (thank you Didi).
 

JimD

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Given that the Red Sox complained to MLB about the Yankees having a camera on coach Gary DiScarcina, I suspect that there is some smoke and that the New York organization was quite likely up to some shenanigans themselves. That being said, I have no desire to go back and try to tar them (as satisfying as that might be to Red Sox fans) or any other team at this point. No one knows where that will end, and after having the 2018 championship forever sullied in the minds of many (unfairly IMO, but sullied nonetheless), the last thing I want to see is people twisting themselves into pretzels to put the other Sox championship teams under scrutiny (as it is, I'm sure amateur sleuths are parsing the 2007 footage like it was the Zapruder tape to try and tie Alex Cora to some perceived funny business).
 

InstaFace

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Cora unleashed the swarm of locusts on Joba Chamberlain. His cheating is of truly biblical proportions.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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If facing Houston in the 2017 playoffs means you got cheated when they beat you, then the 2017 ALCS should have been Red Sox v. Yankees.
 

Van Everyman

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I think in the heat of all these punishments, firings and resignations, we are kind of missing the forest through the trees here.

We are conditioned, particularly here in New England, to look at punishments for cheating and rule violations through the prism of the NFL and Roger Goodell. But I think what's going on here is actually pretty different.

As has been noted elsewhere, sign stealing has always been a part of the game. So why the big effort to condemn it now? Simply because using technology is against the rules?

I think the more likely reason is that Manfred believes the sign stealing arms race is significantly contributing to what he perceives to be the single greatest business threat to baseball: slowing down the pace of the game. After all, Manfred's charge isn't to protect the integrity of the game of baseball -- it's to protect the business of baseball. These violations and punishments look pretty different when you view them through that lens.

And frankly, he may be on to something. I just came across this tweet:
View: https://twitter.com/craigcalcaterra/status/1217445001497653248?s=21


What struck me wasn't simply how open Cora was about "cheating" and so forth .. but rather how much airtime he gives and detail he goes into describing the efforts required to protect signs and "clean up" his own team's weaknesses in this area. Rightly or wrongly, Cora clearly believed it was a contributing factor to why the Yankees beat the Red Sox in London. As such, it was a focus for his team, his coaches and his players.

But lost in that? Two games of baseball took over 9 hours between them. Whatever else MLB said about the "success" of the London games, 4.5 hour baseball games is an abject disaster for the league. And it's completely unsustainable.

So by punishing the biggest practitioners of the sign stealing dark arts individually and organizationally, Manfred isn't saying "These are the only teams doing this" or "imposing the death sentence for speeding" in some moralist outrage. Rather, at a time when fans are looking for a shorter experience, he's trying to avoid a death sentence for baseball by allowing a practice that lengthens the pace of the game to fester, expand to every clubhouse and further drive fans away.
 

OurF'ingCity

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we are kind of missing the forest through the trees here.
I think we are too, but in a different way - what I think MLB wants to obscure is the fact that this issue is ENTIRELY of MLB's own making. This kind of sign-stealing wasn't an issue until (a) MLB instituted instant replay and (b) made the now obviously foolhardy decision to allow teams to have "replay rooms" where they can analyze TV feeds for the purpose of challenging calls. When they did that, MLB was either too stupid to realize that teams looking for every possible edge they can get would obviously use those feeds for other purposes, or did realize that and just didn't care.

Certainly after the league's 2017 memo the teams and players that continued to use the replay rooms deserve a large share of the blame but even after that guidance it was probably inevitable that teams would continue to do so - and obviously MLB to a large extent understood this because they start putting monitors in the rooms (if MLB thought this was an isolated issue they would not have done so across the board). The temptation is just too great - it's like putting a big plate of cookies in front of someone trying to lose weight and encouraging them to smell, touch, and look at the cookies but commanding them to never, under any circumstances, actually eat the cookies.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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Stealing signs as a base runner on 2nd base is still perfectly legal and will still lead to catchers changing their sequences and having to get on to the same page as their pitchers via mound visits. Also, I doubt this will do much to assuage organizational paranoia as I'm sure there will still be suspicions regarding rogue camera placements or people in the crowds filming with their 80 megapixel phone or microdrones that can pick up the signs from a mile away. Teams will take the "better safe than sorry" route and continue to use their obfuscation methods in the extreme. Look at how many coaches in the NFL put their play sheet over their mouths when calling plays. Spygate etc. hasn't changed NFL-wide paranoia in the least.

If this is his way of shortening the game he's doing a terrible job.
 

BaseballJones

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Given that the Red Sox complained to MLB about the Yankees having a camera on coach Gary DiScarcina, I suspect that there is some smoke and that the New York organization was quite likely up to some shenanigans themselves. That being said, I have no desire to go back and try to tar them (as satisfying as that might be to Red Sox fans) or any other team at this point. No one knows where that will end, and after having the 2018 championship forever sullied in the minds of many (unfairly IMO, but sullied nonetheless), the last thing I want to see is people twisting themselves into pretzels to put the other Sox championship teams under scrutiny (as it is, I'm sure amateur sleuths are parsing the 2007 footage like it was the Zapruder tape to try and tie Alex Cora to some perceived funny business).
I'm with you and I'm not with you. I really don't desire to see this Pandora's box opened wide. The Red Sox deserve punishment (not as big as what Houston got but still) and Cora deserves to be gone. The Red Sox were absolutely caught speeding. So while I'm fine with teams like the Yankees not getting punished (apparently they stopped their own use of video to decipher signs when MLB issued the warning), what always bothers me is the sanctimonious moralizing that happens. I don't ever want to hear a Yankee fan talk about how the Red Sox are cheaters and they are not. All that happened was the Sox were stupid enough to do it after the warning. And from Cora's press conference in London, he appeared to be pretty certain that Beltran had brought some of that stuff over to NY and maybe they were still doing something. I'm not asking for a witch hunt to bring down the Yankees. But Yankee fans need to make sure they understand that they were doing the exact same thing, though *maybe* for a shorter period of time. So maybe they don't get punished, fine. But let's not pretend for a second that the Yankees have been somehow above this kind of thing. Quite obviously, they haven't been.
 

dhappy42

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I think in the heat of all these punishments, firings and resignations, we are kind of missing the forest through the trees here.

We are conditioned, particularly here in New England, to look at punishments for cheating and rule violations through the prism of the NFL and Roger Goodell. But I think what's going on here is actually pretty different.

As has been noted elsewhere, sign stealing has always been a part of the game. So why the big effort to condemn it now? Simply because using technology is against the rules?
It's ironic that the entity that introduced the key technology -- replay room video monitors -- is the league.

I think the more likely reason is that Manfred believes the sign stealing arms race is significantly contributing to what he perceives to be the single greatest business threat to baseball: slowing down the pace of the game. After all, Manfred's charge isn't to protect the integrity of the game of baseball -- it's to protect the business of baseball. These violations and punishments look pretty different when you view them through that lens.
With regard to slowing down the game, video replay reviews seemingly take forever. It'd be faster if managers had to make challenge decisions based on what they actually see instead of advice from a replay room.

So by punishing the biggest practitioners of the sign stealing dark arts individually and organizationally, Manfred isn't saying "These are the only teams doing this" or "imposing the death sentence for speeding" in some moralist outrage. Rather, at a time when fans are looking for a shorter experience, he's trying to avoid a death sentence for baseball by allowing a practice that lengthens the pace of the game to fester, expand to every clubhouse and further drive fans away.
You make good points about how Manfred's game pace concerns may be a part of his punishment math, but the league caused this problem by introducing video replay challenges and allowing teams to set up video replay monitors close to dugouts. (I'm in favor of the former, but not the latter.) It seems unreasonable to me to allow players to watch recorded and real-time video and expect them to ignore catchers' signs. It all starts with that. How they relay those signs -- by word-of-mouth, AppleWatch, texts, banging trash cans, etc all comes afterwards.

Edit: What OurF'ingCity said.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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I'm shocked that there is gambling in this establishment.

The Yankees would simply never.
I mean let's look at this over the last 48 hours.
  1. Carlos Beltran was named as Co Ring Leader in the Astros cheating scandal and helped come up with the trash can system
  2. Logan Morrison explicitly names the Dodgers and Yankees as teams that stole signs as well
  3. Carlos Beltran worked for the Yankees last year and was important enough to accompany on a trip to London.
  4. Cora knowing how Beltran worked (because he did the same) mentioned Beltran as the most important free-agent signing for MFY
  5. The report comes out last night speculating that 7 other teams did this
If you read the "tea leaves" and really wanted a thorough investigation then you would probably investigate every single team that had Astros personnel hired in the last 3 to 5 years. This would definitely include MFY. If you expand it to players who left Houston then you obviously have to include teams like the Twins in the investigation who signed Marwin Gonzalez last year. Point being that the Yankees can act appalled at this all they want but I'm pretty sure they did the exact same crap as Boston. A really good team on paper and like Boston the year before they didn't need to do this in order to win. It just says a lot that the team that hired Beltran magically wins 103 games the following season.
 

BaseballJones

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I mean let's look at this over the last 48 hours.
  1. Carlos Beltran was named as Co Ring Leader in the Astros cheating scandal and helped come up with the trash can system
  2. Logan Morrison explicitly names the Dodgers and Yankees as teams that stole signs as well
  3. Carlos Beltran worked for the Yankees last year and was important enough to accompany on a trip to London.
  4. Cora knowing how Beltran worked (because he did the same) mentioned Beltran as the most important free-agent signing for MFY
  5. The report comes out last night speculating that 7 other teams did this
If you read the "tea leaves" and really wanted a thorough investigation then you would probably investigate every single team that had Astros personnel hired in the last 3 to 5 years. This would definitely include MFY. If you expand it to players who left Houston then you obviously have to include teams like the Twins in the investigation who signed Marwin Gonzalez last year. Point being that the Yankees can act appalled at this all they want but I'm pretty sure they did the exact same crap as Boston. A really good team on paper and like Boston the year before they didn't need to do this in order to win. It just says a lot that the team that hired Beltran magically wins 103 games the following season.
Well hey hang on. I totally agree that the Yankees were doing stuff too. But they didn't just "magically" win 103 games. I mean, they won 100 the previous year. They were already a proven great team.
 

CoffeeNerdness

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With regard to slowing down the game, video replay reviews seemingly take forever. It'd be faster if managers had to make challenge decisions based on what they actually see instead of advice from a replay room.
That's not really the slow part of replay. A play happens, the manager holds up their hand to the ump while they wait for the word from the replay room, and then they challenge or don't challenge. They have 30 seconds to do this.

A manager has a 30-second time limit to inform the umpire (by verbal communication or hand signal) whether he wishes to use his manager challenge to invoke replay review, and the challenge may not be rescinded once it has been exercised.
 

Tyrone Biggums

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Well hey hang on. I totally agree that the Yankees were doing stuff too. But they didn't just "magically" win 103 games. I mean, they won 100 the previous year. They were already a proven great team.
Well right like I said they didn't need to do it. They were a really good team. But they did finally finish first in the division. Which probably would have happened anyway but Beltran helped.
 

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I don't think Manfred wants this to spread anymore unless someone literally shoves something in his face. Does he really want 7 or 8 managers and GM's to get suspended/axed in the next few months. For one, it's utter chaos. Secondly, it looks like EVERYONE just laughed at him and didn't take him seriously after his last memo. He's got his 2 teams via Drellich and Rosenthal and I think he's praying nothing else forces its way out.

That's why they won't even blink about the Cora video regarding Beltran. It has to be someone with a grudge or whatever going to a reporter and outing NY.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
7,608
I don't think Manfred wants this to spread anymore unless someone literally shoves something in his face. Does he really want 7 or 8 managers and GM's to get suspended/axed in the next few months. For one, it's utter chaos. Secondly, it looks like EVERYONE just laughed at him and didn't take him seriously after his last memo. He's got his 2 teams via Drellich and Rosenthal and I think he's praying nothing else forces its way out.

That's why they won't even blink about the Cora video regarding Beltran. It has to be someone with a grudge or whatever going to a reporter and outing NY.
Agreed. But if there is some serious smoke....if he DOESN'T pursue it, it makes him look like he's only trying to hammer a couple of teams and not REALLY take it all seriously.
 
Aug 11, 2019
371
That 2017 ALCS was a really strange series, HOU won all four home games by a combined 15-2 and NY won the three at YS in between by a combined 19-5.
It wasn't a home and road thing but the Yankees managed to lose the 1960 World Series to the Pirates in the bottom of the 9th, game 7, in spite of outscoring them 55-27.
 

dhappy42

Straw Man
Oct 27, 2013
8,482
Michigan
If Cora was still the Astros bench coach and hadn't gone on to manage the 2018 Red Sox, do you think would MLB suspend him for a year, same as Hinch and Luhnow? I assume other coaches and team personnel were involved in the Astros sign-stealing schemes. It's interesting that the only coach mentioned in Manfred's report is Cora and Beltran is the only player mentioned, and both went on to become managers elsewhere.
 

BaseballJones

goalpost mover
SoSH Member
Oct 1, 2015
7,608
To me it's clear that the Astros really tried to pin this on two guys no longer with the organization. Hinch, being the manager, couldn't escape a penalty, because it's absurd on the face of it to claim that, as manager, "I wanted this to stop but I couldn't get them to." I mean, that's just either a flat-out lie, or it shows that Hinch was utterly incapable as a manager. He was the boss of the major league club on a day-to-day basis. It's not like two players got together and whispered to each other, "Look, when I'm on second, if I can figure out the signs, I'll relay them to you" without Hinch knowing about it (which may happen in baseball). This was an elaborate scheme involving players, coaching staff, other Astro personnel, video screens, banging on trash cans, the works. ZERO chance Hinch wasn't fully in the know, or at least enough in the know to tell them to knock it off. If he was so upset by it that he trashed some equipment, but *didn't do anything to actually stop it*, then he's a joke of a manager.

But it's much easier for the Astros, especially before MLB issues any punishment, to claim that it was the departed people (especially two guys now working for rival teams - or at least when Beltran was with the Yankees anyway) who were REALLY behind all this, but our guy (Hinch) was REALLY opposed to it.

I mean, give me a break.
 

OurF'ingCity

Well-Known Member
Gold Supporter
SoSH Member
Apr 22, 2016
4,022
New York City
It's interesting that the only coach mentioned in Manfred's report is Cora and Beltran is the only player mentioned, and both went on to become managers elsewhere.
The mention of Beltran is really weird because there was no need to do it. The relevant quote is "Approximately two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including Carlos Beltrán, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams’ signs and communicating the signs to the batter." Why include the bolded? Presumably the group "included" a bunch of players. All this does is fuck over the Mets because now everyone is asking how they can continue to employ as a manager someone who was definitively involved in the scheme.

The conspiratorial view of this is that MLB knows it can't suspend Beltran alone because it would raise the question of why other players weren't also getting suspended, so it's passed the buck to the Mets to make a disciplinary decision. The ultimate question is, if Beltran were just enjoying his retirement in a villa in Puerto Rico somewhere, would he have been named in the report at all?
 

JimD

Member
SoSH Member
Nov 29, 2001
6,934
To me it's clear that the Astros really tried to pin this on two guys no longer with the organization. Hinch, being the manager, couldn't escape a penalty, because it's absurd on the face of it to claim that, as manager, "I wanted this to stop but I couldn't get them to." I mean, that's just either a flat-out lie, or it shows that Hinch was utterly incapable as a manager. He was the boss of the major league club on a day-to-day basis. It's not like two players got together and whispered to each other, "Look, when I'm on second, if I can figure out the signs, I'll relay them to you" without Hinch knowing about it (which may happen in baseball). This was an elaborate scheme involving players, coaching staff, other Astro personnel, video screens, banging on trash cans, the works. ZERO chance Hinch wasn't fully in the know, or at least enough in the know to tell them to knock it off. If he was so upset by it that he trashed some equipment, but *didn't do anything to actually stop it*, then he's a joke of a manager.

But it's much easier for the Astros, especially before MLB issues any punishment, to claim that it was the departed people (especially two guys now working for rival teams - or at least when Beltran was with the Yankees anyway) who were REALLY behind all this, but our guy (Hinch) was REALLY opposed to it.

I mean, give me a break.
Based on Manfred's punishment, it didn't work, especially IMO his suspension of Luhnow. It probably doesn't change the probability that both Cora and Beltran were heavily involved in the shenanigans, though.
The more I think about it, the more I think that this is going to be difficult for MLB to ascertain what exactly happened. How do you prove that hitters were in the replay room and relaying information, or that there were supposedly special communications sequences to be used by runners like 'two feet on the bag', etc.