Moving Hanley to 1B

[OCD SS]

This is very simple: so far Hanley's transition to LF has gone so well that we're actually looking back favorably at Manny's defense in in front of the Monster. Napoli is not long for the Sox, so there will be a hole at 1B while there's still a surplus of OFs on the roster.
 
Do you think the Red Sox should move Hanley to 1B, counting on his old actions as an infielder to make for a smoother transition, or are they better off keeping him on the left side of the diamond, where the angles and reads off the bat are going to be more familiar, and the footwork and mechanics are less demanding? Is this something you would ask him to do as soon as Napoli is off the roster, or do you give him the offseason to work up to spring training as preparation?

 

[Ale Xander]

Hopefully Ortiz hits #500 September 25-27 and retires, we move Hanley to Dh and sign the best corner if on the market

 

[moondog80]

If he's up for it, yes. Mainly because it's a better fit with the projected roster next year. But I don't want him there against his will.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Hopefully Ortiz hits #500 September 25-27 and retires, we move Hanley to Dh and sign the best corner if on the market

 
If he's hitting well enough to reach 500 this year, why wouldn't you want him back for one more year?

 

[Ale Xander]

Nm wt

 

[soxhop411]

The only first baseman I see us signing this offseason is Byung-Ho Park. I assume if they had thoughts of putting him at 1B next season they would be doing a "trial run" this season to see if he is capable of it. Last thing we want is to move him to first and turn into a butcher there as well

 

[rembrat]

If he's hitting well enough to reach 500 this year, why wouldn't you want him back for one more year?

 
Ditto. Why are we pushing out a guy that, if he gets to 500, would have hit 34HRs in a pitcher's era? Are we getting stupider?

 

[grimshaw]

The only thing keeping me from thinking it's "more probable than not," is that there has to be a 2 year bridge plan for a 1B, but we have no clue what it is yet.  There has to be something leading over to Sam Travis or first baseman X.
 
I absolutely think they should though.  Once the season is officially shot, they need to see who can do what.  Squeezing more value out of Ramirez is necessary.

 

[soxhop411]

The only thing keeping me from thinking it's "more probable than not," is that there is a 2 year bridge plan for a 1B, but we have no clue what it is yet.
There has to be something to leading over to Sam Travis.
 
I absolutely think they should though.  Once the season is officially shot, they need to see who can do what.  Squeezing more value out of Ramirez is necessary.

Byung-Ho Park?

 

[Ale Xander]

Our current Dh is not getting the doubles and singles this year, looked toast pre-asb

He gets up to .270/,350 then equation changes
But I don't want Him to mays it

 

[Plympton91]

 
Ditto. Why are we pushing out a guy that, if he gets to 500, would have hit 34HRs in a pitcher's era? Are we getting stupider?

Me three.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

Our current Dh is not getting the doubles and singles this year, looked toast pre-asb

He gets up to .270/,350 then equation changes
But I don't want Him to mays it

 
Last year he hit a double every 5.26 games. This year he's hitting a double every 5.29. He hit 74 singles in 142 games last year and is on pace for 68 if we extrapolate out to 142 games. Care to try again?

 

[johnnywayback]

The only thing keeping me from thinking it's "more probable than not," is that there has to be a 2 year bridge plan for a 1B, but we have no clue what it is yet.  There has to be something leading over to Sam Travis.
 
I absolutely think they should though.  Once the season is officially shot, they need to see who can do what.  Squeezing more value out of Ramirez is necessary.

 
I don't think Sam Travis is enough of a prospect to save a place for in 2017/2018.  If Hanley can play a passable 1B, we don't need to find one for a couple years.  If he can't, we need to sign or trade for someone this off-season.
 
Which is why I hope they find out before the off-season begins.

 

[Marbleheader]

Devers is a couple of years away, but the feeling is that 1B might be his best position.

 

[grimshaw]

 
I don't think Sam Travis is enough of a prospect to save a place for in 2017/2018.  If Hanley can play a passable 1B, we don't need to find one for a couple years.  If he can't, we need to sign or trade for someone this off-season.
 
Which is why I hope they find out before the off-season begins.

My point is that Hanley is probably more like plan E and they can do a lot better, and probably have something mapped out.

 

[alwyn96]

My point is that Hanley is probably more like plan E and they can do a lot better, and probably have something mapped out.

 
I gotta think Chris Davis is on their radar, for better or worse. I have no idea what it would take to sign him, but probably more than anyone wants to pay.

 

[Snodgrass'Muff]

 
I don't think Sam Travis is enough of a prospect to save a place for in 2017/2018.  If Hanley can play a passable 1B, we don't need to find one for a couple years.  If he can't, we need to sign or trade for someone this off-season.
 
Which is why I hope they find out before the off-season begins.

 
Might want to take another look. He's hit comfortably above average at every level (and is already in AA), makes quick adjustments and has even been athletic enough that a move to the outfield isn't out of the question. He's a real prospect and I'd be surprised if the Sox don't have him as one of their plans for filling the position long term.
 

Devers is a couple of years away, but the feeling is that 1B might be his best position.

 
He was recently described as a young version of Panda defensively by a scout Kiley McDaniel spoke to. I wouldn't write him off as a third baseman just yet. There's some good information in his Adopt-a-Prospect thread.

 

[OCD SS]

With the system as it currently stands I used to sort of see a long-term plan were Moncada wound up at 3B and Devers at 1B (with the idea that a passable defensive 3Bman might be quite good at 1B). But with Pedey looking more and more brittle I think if Moncada can play 2B, he might need to take over a bit sooner. So maybe that leaves it to Devers or Chavis to push Panda off the hot corner in a few years...
 
I wouldn't move Hanley to 1B. Part of his problem is health, and I think there's generally less wear and tear in the OF, and I think good defensive actions, attention and footwork are more important in the IF; I'd give him a full offseason to get into OF playing shape (a bit less bulk might help) and to build on the small improvements we have seen.

 

[Lowrielicious]

With the system as it currently stands I used to sort of see a long-term plan were Moncada wound up at 3B and Devers at 1B (with the idea that a passable defensive 3Bman might be quite good at 1B). But with Pedey looking more and more brittle I think if Moncada can play 2B, he might need to take over a bit sooner. So maybe that leaves it to Devers or Chavis to push Panda off the hot corner in a few years...
 
I wouldn't move Hanley to 1B. Part of his problem is health, and I think there's generally less wear and tear in the OF, and I think good defensive actions, attention and footwork are more important in the IF; I'd give him a full offseason to get into OF playing shape (a bit less bulk might help) and to build on the small improvements we have seen.

 
I don't want Hanley anywhere near 1b particularly because of the bolded.
 
His infield experience will help with fielding groundballs, but not with picking, stretching, working with the pitcher groundballs to the right side, bunt defense etc. A 1b who cannot stretch or pick the ball well makes your entire infield worse. Hanley butchering the outfield (until he can slot in at DH) is a more preferable option to him butchering every low, wide or up the line throw from the infield.

 

[KillerBs]

I still can't buy that a guy who played SS for 10 years, even badly, can't handle the footwork or stretch sufficiently or lead a pitcher to the bag at first. Hanley can catch a baseball. I am trying to think of any historical example of a (bad) SS who simply could not handle 1b defensively, but come up empty. There are a ton of guys who played a passable or even good 1b who couldn't last 10 innings at SS. 
 
But in the end, we simply don't know how bad Hanley would be at first. The idea is to find out this year -- get the critical new info -- and not spend the off season wondering about it. 

 

[TimScribble]

The only first baseman I see us signing this offseason is Byung-Ho Park. I assume if they had thoughts of putting him at 1B next season they would be doing a "trial run" this season to see if he is capable of it. Last thing we want is to move him to first and turn into a butcher there as well

Speaking of Park, his counterpart with the Pirates, Kang, is on a tear recently. I'd be all for Park as 1B next year.

 

[Lowrielicious]

I still can't buy that a guy who played SS for 10 years, even badly, can't handle the footwork or stretch sufficiently or lead a pitcher to the bag at first. Hanley can catch a baseball. I am trying to think of any historical example of a (bad) SS who simply could not handle 1b defensively, but come up empty. There are a ton of guys who played a passable or even good 1b who couldn't last 10 innings at SS. 
 
But in the end, we simply don't know how bad Hanley would be at first. The idea is to find out this year -- get the critical new info -- and not spend the off season wondering about it. 

How many players have moved from SS to 1b ever?
 
There are some crossover skills in the positions but there are many factors that a 1b needs to learn that a SS simply would never have touched on and need to be learned. 
 
Hanley hasn't exactly shown himself to be adept at picking up the skills of LF. That may well be due to lack of repetition and training at the position, possibly due to his focus being mainly on bulking up for hitting.
I don't think throwing him in the deep end mid-season is going to tell you much at all. I also don't think having him try and learn the position in the offseason/preseason for next year will get him to a level that will make the move useful enough as an overall positive for the team next year either.

 

[foulkehampshire]

Speaking of Park, his counterpart with the Pirates, Kang, is on a tear recently. I'd be all for Park as 1B next year.

 
Park intrigues me. He's going to swing and miss, but the power should play at the major league level. Kang's power is more of the line drive variety, which allowed him to sneak it over the short fences in the KBO.
 
Park however, hits no-doubt 420+ foot bombs to CF.   

 

[grimshaw]

Kang is signed for a total of 11m through 2018 and a 2019 option to be a utility infielder.  He ain't going anywhere.  And why him at 1B of all positions?
That's kind of like trading for Holt to play 1B.

 

[foulkehampshire]

Kang is signed for a total of 11m through 2018 and a 2019 option to be a utility infielder.  He ain't going anywhere.  And why him at 1B of all positions?
That's kind of like trading for Holt to play 1B.

 
He's talking about Byung-Ho Park. 

 

[KillerBs]

How many players have moved from SS to 1b

That is a pretty good trivia question. Baseball reference says 9 guys have played 200 games at short and first base including a Hall of Famer and 6 guys who played with the Bosox.

 

[TimScribble]

Kang is signed for a total of 11m through 2018 and a 2019 option to be a utility infielder.  He ain't going anywhere.  And why him at 1B of all positions?
That's kind of like trading for Holt to play 1B.

talking about Park and just comparing how Kang is doing this year.

 

[nattysez]

Forcing a guy to play a position he's not interested in playing seems like a terrible idea, particularly when a first baseman's ability to make scoop plays and otherwise save his fellow infielders from throwing errors is so crucial to success.
 

But when asked prior to the Red Sox‘ 1-0 loss to the Orioles if he envisioned making a return to the infield any time in the future (near or far), Ramirez was definitive in his response.
“Hell, no,” he said.
Even a place such as first base, where there wouldn’t be the need for the kind of mobility warranted at his old positions, shortstop and third base?
“Me? Hell, no,” Ramirez once again responded. “I’m just an employee here so I just want to win. It’s just like where I hit in the lineup. Wherever they think I should be to win, that’s what I’m here for.
“But I consider myself an outfielder.”
Ramirez has routinely cited the need to use his time as an outfielder to save his body, thereby potentially avoiding injury. When asked to elaborate, he said, “I don’t have to bend that much. None of this. None of this. None of this. You have to stay down. It makes a big difference.”
 

 

[kieckeredinthehead]

 

[Papelbon's Poutine]

How many players have moved from SS to 1b ever?
 

 
The name Ernie Banks jumps to mind. 

 

[jscola85]

Dump Sandoval, move Ramirez to 3rd in 2016.  If Hanley's issue is inability to read balls in the OF, not lack of mobility, move him back to 3rd.  3rd is the closest to his natural position of shortstop - same angle off the bat, similar throws, etc.
 
Maybe give him a 1B glove and see how he enjoys it so that 1-2 times a week he can play there to ease his workload, but in my view, moving him back to 3rd is the best this team will do with him, short of opening up the DH spot.

 

[Savin Hillbilly]

Dump Sandoval, move Ramirez to 3rd in 2016.  

 
About the only way we could possibly get rid of the Panda contract right now without eating the majority of the money would be to bundle Betts or Bogaerts along with him. Are you up for that?

 

[smastroyin]

How many players have moved from SS to 1b ever?
 
There are some crossover skills in the positions but there are many factors that a 1b needs to learn that a SS simply would never have touched on and need to be learned. 
 
Hanley hasn't exactly shown himself to be adept at picking up the skills of LF. That may well be due to lack of repetition and training at the position, possibly due to his focus being mainly on bulking up for hitting.
I don't think throwing him in the deep end mid-season is going to tell you much at all. I also don't think having him try and learn the position in the offseason/preseason for next year will get him to a level that will make the move useful enough as an overall positive for the team next year either.

 
How many SS hit as well as a replacement level 1B?
 
Of that population, how many can't handle other positions on the diamond which are harder to fill?
 
You're not looking at all of the reasons that SS don't move to 1B very often at the MLB level.

 

[grimshaw]

talking about Park and just comparing how Kang is doing this year.

My bad.  Don't read good.

 

[smastroyin]

To answer the question.
 
I would ask him what he wants to do.  Part of me wonders if given a real off-season of him knowing what he has to do to play LF if he couldn't figure it out and train in a better way. 
 
If he wants to play 1B, I would get him practice reps right now, and get ready for him to be 1B in September while opening the OF spot so that Castillo and JBJ can both play.  Doesn't sound like that's really an option though.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

To answer the question.
 
I would ask him what he wants to do.  Part of me wonders if given a real off-season of him knowing what he has to do to play LF if he couldn't figure it out and train in a better way.
 
If he wants to play 1B, I would get him practice reps right now, and get ready for him to be 1B in September while opening the OF spot so that Castillo and JBJ can both play.

 
And if he doesn't want to play 1B (given the past quotes), leave him in LF for another year, where he hopefully improves, before moving him to DH. There ought to be plenty of PAs to go around with Rusney/JBJ in RF, days off for Betts and Hanley, defensive replacement.
 
Only caveat is: Does the FO envision Papi playing more than one more year? If so, that significantly alters the incentive on steering Hanley toward 1B.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I posted this link in the garbage-time thread, too.
 
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/61985-kevin-youkilis-lf/?p=3276172
 
Youkilis is the poster child for why I want to move Hanley to 1B asap. Mediocre 3B, couldn't play OF to save his life, but a gold-glove caliber 1B. Not a perfect cognate, because Youks didn't play SS in pro ball, nor did he have an offseason to prepare. However, no one can question his work ethic, attitude, or attentiveness in the field. And he still sucked as a LF.
 
Do I think Hanley would win any GGs at 1B? Hell no. But I think the concerns about his paying attention are overblown, and it's very possible that he'll be an average 1B, instead of a really, really bad LF.

 

[rembrat]

I posted this link in the garbage-time thread, too.
 
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/61985-kevin-youkilis-lf/?p=3276172
 
Youkilis is the poster child for why I want to move Hanley to 1B asap. Mediocre 3B, couldn't play OF to save his life, but a gold-glove caliber 1B. Not a perfect cognate, because Youks didn't play SS in pro ball, nor did he have an offseason to prepare. However, no one can question his work ethic, attitude, or attentiveness in the field. And he still sucked as a LF.
 
Do I think Hanley would win any GGs at 1B? Hell no. But I think the concerns about his paying attention are overblown, and it's very possible that he'll be an average 1B, instead of a really, really bad LF.

 
I always thought Youkilis moved extremely well considering his bad body type. Hanley on the other hand seems to grimace in discomfort anytime he needs to lunge laterally.
 
But I'm up for it if Hanley is as well. Why not.

 

[threecy]

 
If he's hitting well enough to reach 500 this year, why wouldn't you want him back for one more year?

 
 

 
Ditto. Why are we pushing out a guy that, if he gets to 500, would have hit 34HRs in a pitcher's era? Are we getting stupider?

 
 

Me three.

 
Because he will be 40 this fall and the end is near.  Would we rather him go out on his own terms with a bang, or go out with performance akin to his first half slump?

 

[grimshaw]

I posted this link in the garbage-time thread, too.
 
http://sonsofsamhorn.net/topic/61985-kevin-youkilis-lf/?p=3276172
 
Youkilis is the poster child for why I want to move Hanley to 1B asap. Mediocre 3B, couldn't play OF to save his life, but a gold-glove caliber 1B. Not a perfect cognate, because Youks didn't play SS in pro ball, nor did he have an offseason to prepare. However, no one can question his work ethic, attitude, or attentiveness in the field. And he still sucked as a LF.
 
Do I think Hanley would win any GGs at 1B? Hell no. But I think the concerns about his paying attention are overblown, and it's very possible that he'll be an average 1B, instead of a really, really bad LF.

I think Youk is a good comparison for 1B to LF.  Dauber was awful too, though not so hot at 1B either.  I think Youk was fine at 3B to start his career, and was willing to be jerked around.  The transition back from 1B to 3B later in his career resulted in his body predictably breaking down as it doesn't usually go so well when you move to a more demanding position.
 
I will be extremely disappointed if he ends up as the DH unless his production spikes as a result of his body holding up better.  His bat doesn't have a history of replicating the finest DH's in recent history.  Just a complete waste.

 

[LeoCarrillo]

I think Youk is a good comparison for 1B to LF.  Dauber was awful too, though not so hot at 1B either.  I think Youk was fine at 3B to start his career, and was willing to be jerked around.  The transition back from 1B to 3B later in his career resulted in his body predictably breaking down as it doesn't usually go so well when you move to a more demanding position.
 
I will be extremely disappointed if he ends up as the DH unless his production spikes as a result of his body holding up better.  His bat doesn't have a history of replicating the finest DH's in recent history.  Just a complete waste.

 
1. Not good defensively so far in new-position-go-round. 2. Monster when healthy in April. 3. DH keeps you healthy.
 
Try him at first, sure. But if we can keep him healthy enough to play 145 games at DH? Sign me up.

 

[jscola85]

 
About the only way we could possibly get rid of the Panda contract right now without eating the majority of the money would be to bundle Betts or Bogaerts along with him. Are you up for that?

 
Yes, I would be willing to eat a sizable chunk of Sandoval's contract.  I think it is far more likely we can settle Hanley at 3rd and have his bat play there as a plus bat/mediocre glove, than see Sandoval reverse his disturbing peripherals degradation and weight issues.

 

[Larry Gardner]

Don't post much, but couldn't resist looking for this and posting.....

 

[grimshaw]

 
1. Not good defensively so far in new-position-go-round. 2. Monster when healthy in April. 3. DH keeps you healthy.
 
Try him at first, sure. But if we can keep him healthy enough to play 145 games at DH? Sign me up.

There is no evidence that he has been unhealthy since then though other than message board speculation. I know we'd like to explain away why he hasn't been the same since April, but I chalk it up more to a very good hitter having a hot streak like Adrian Gonzalez had to start the year and then cooling off after a break (oddly the same as Gonzalez post home run derby). 
 
He needs to hit around wRC+150 to justify that money.  And even if he earns it, he's blocking someone who is dinged up and can't play the field.
It could be my extreme dislike for the full time DH position that is tainting my judgement though.

 

[Buzzkill Pauley]

I think Youk is a good comparison for 1B to LF.  Dauber was awful too, though not so hot at 1B either.  I think Youk was fine at 3B to start his career, and was willing to be jerked around.  The transition back from 1B to 3B later in his career resulted in his body predictably breaking down as it doesn't usually go so well when you move to a more demanding position.
 
I will be extremely disappointed if he ends up as the DH unless his production spikes as a result of his body holding up better.  His bat doesn't have a history of replicating the finest DH's in recent history.  Just a complete waste.

 
Yeah, there are quite a few examples of guys who played for the Sox who did okay enough at 1B but were generally bad outfielders. IIRC, Hinske was rather unlovely as a corner outfielder, too, in his brief Red Sox career, but okay at 3B/1B.

 

[smastroyin]

Yeah, the Red Sox have had such suffering from having a full-time DH.
 
Things like the hidden value of having a position you can rotate guys through don't actually ever really materialize in wins but there is so much annoying overanalysis of baseball that people start to think it's a real and vetted thing.  The real truth of the matter is that if a full-time DH allows you to add another plus hitter to your lineup, it completely negates the flexibility "value."  Of course it would be nice if the Red Sox could have a bunch of guys that produce 150 wRC+ and can play 7 positions, but that's just not the reality of life.  
 
What's fucked up about the Red Sox is how much trouble they are having getting value from 1B and corner OF.  Noone complained about David Ortiz full time DH in 2013 when Napoli, Nava, and Victorino were all producing at a high level.  Yet, when those positions go south, people are so fucking quick to jump on "the problem with the Red Sox is that David Ortiz doesn't play a position."  whatever. 
 
This is one of the things that has really gotten overemphasized because of WAR.  DH's are rightfully downgraded because of their high replacement level but people who don't always understand what that really means with respect to building a team and just look at WAR and say DH's are useless.  Guess what, you still have to fill out the lineup card.

 

[threecy]

There is no evidence that he has been unhealthy since then though other than message board speculation.

Um, apart from him suffering multiple injuries and missing playing time due to said injuries...

 

[glennhoffmania]

Assuming that someone can easily transition to 1B is naive.  Maybe he can do it but it's hardly a given.  He's played basically a half season in the OF in his life.  I'd like to see if he improves at all over the rest of this year and the beginning of next.  Handing him 1B next year without a backup plan would be foolish.

 

[Red(s)HawksFan]

There is no evidence that he has been unhealthy since then though other than message board speculation.

 
 

Um, apart from him suffering multiple injuries and missing playing time due to said injuries...

 
.283/.340/.609/.949 with 10 HR in 25 games
Shoulder injury (missed 3 games)
.283/.324/.409/.732 with 5 HR in 42 games
Hand injury (missed 6 games)
.221/.256/.407/.663 with 4 HR in 22 games
 
I mean, I hate to speculate here on this message board, but there seems to be a significant decline in his numbers that seem to coincide with a couple known injuries.  Far be it for any of us to wonder if those two things are related in some way.

 

[HomeRunBaker]

Hopefully Ortiz hits #500 September 25-27 and retires, we move Hanley to Dh and sign the best corner if on the market

Ortiz is refusing to play 1b in large part (possibly the ONLY part) due to his magic number of 425 PA so his $11m contract will automatically vest for 2016. He's not leaving money on the table......why would he with the gig he's got?