Mr. Chemistry

benhogan

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My money is on "where is Kyrie" because I doubt he even shows up let alone plays. There is no indication he's close to playing in a game and I doubt he is going to push it to get crucified by the Garden.
Perk is with you...

“He’s showing us who he is. This is Kyrie Irving,” Perkins, now an NBA analyst for ESPN, said Thursday on WEEI’s “Dale & Keefe.” “Think about this: All of a sudden, two weeks before he has to return to Boston, he’s injured. Right? Sounds like a setup plan to me. Like, ‘Oh, nah, I ain’t playing in this game.’ It probably was pre-rehearsed from the jump. He didn’t want to come back and face this. We’re looking at a guy that’s mentally — he’s not strong, mentally. And he’s proven it. He’s not strong. No matter how much he tries to have this Kobe Bryant mentality and all of this, he’s not like (that).”

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2019/11/is-kyrie-irving-faking-injury-to-avoid-boston-return-ex-celtic-explains/
 

InstaFace

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I don't understand why anyone would agree with Rondo's take regarding a short video tribute for a former player. Rondo's bleatings aside, IT4 had a compelling story (Mr. Irrelevant to 3rd leading scorer in the league), and was a key part of the team's run to the ECF in 2017. And he left his all on the court in the process, eventually leading to several seasons lost due to injury. The big issue was the timing of his tribute being unfortunately scheduled for Paul Pierce appreciation night, but that wasn't his fault.
Yes, Celtics fans understand that. The full range of emotional experience with IT4 was different than just "best player on a team that made the ECF and then got crushed".

But, from a remove, and with a notorious chip on his shoulder, Rondo does make a reasonable alternative case, and one that lands much harder on someone without even IT4's claim to Boston's heart.
 

Eddie Jurak

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Perk is with you...

“He’s showing us who he is. This is Kyrie Irving,” Perkins, now an NBA analyst for ESPN, said Thursday on WEEI’s “Dale & Keefe.” “Think about this: All of a sudden, two weeks before he has to return to Boston, he’s injured. Right? Sounds like a setup plan to me. Like, ‘Oh, nah, I ain’t playing in this game.’ It probably was pre-rehearsed from the jump. He didn’t want to come back and face this. We’re looking at a guy that’s mentally — he’s not strong, mentally. And he’s proven it. He’s not strong. No matter how much he tries to have this Kobe Bryant mentality and all of this, he’s not like (that).”

Read more at: https://nesn.com/2019/11/is-kyrie-irving-faking-injury-to-avoid-boston-return-ex-celtic-explains/
The Celtics should have a "tribute" video.
  • Kyrie getting his face broken by Aron Baynes
  • Kyrie bitching about minutes
  • Kyrie going ballistic because Hayward passed to Tatum instead of him
  • Kyrie complaining about rotations
  • Kyrie mailing in playoff games against Milwaukee
  • Kyrie calling Lebron to apologize for being such a crap teammate
  • The Celtics coming one game away from advancing past Lebron to the finals... without Kyrie
 

nighthob

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The only tribute video they should show is the Bill Russell Uncle Drew commercial. Followed by Brad unleashing Marcus on Kyrie until he takes himself out of the game with a mystery muscle pull.
 

DJnVa

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It might be moot. He's out again tonight.

Completely unrelated, the Nets are winning.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Say what you will about Irving but the talk about him not being mentally tough is classic, old school, "good-face" stuff by people who likely don't know him well or at all (especially we basement dwellers). I mean, as Doris Burke says on the most recent Lowe Post, "Perk says lots of stuff" - he is doing so to pump up his reputation as a pundit. Its hard to take his views on this seriously.

Mentally weak people don't go to a top college program, get drafted number one then develop an elite handle and shooting skills and then become huge contributors to a championship even if sports radio takes tell you otherwise.

I don't like Kyrie Irving much and it seems clear that for his otherworldly basketball skills, he struggles with making those around him better. However the speculation about his state of mind seems silly, especially since he has been mercurial figure for his entire NBA career.
 

Red Averages

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March 3rd is the next Nets @ Celtics game. That said, i expect several “Where Is Kyrie?” Type chants Wednesday. Doesn’t seem like Kemba will be around unfortunately.
 

lars10

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Say what you will about Irving but the talk about him not being mentally tough is classic, old school, "good-face" stuff by people who likely don't know him well or at all (especially we basement dwellers). I mean, as Doris Burke says on the most recent Lowe Post, "Perk says lots of stuff" - he is doing so to pump up his reputation as a pundit. Its hard to take his views on this seriously.

Mentally weak people don't go to a top college program, get drafted number one then develop an elite handle and shooting skills and then become huge contributors to a championship even if sports radio takes tell you otherwise.

I don't like Kyrie Irving much and it seems clear that for his otherworldly basketball skills, he struggles with making those around him better. However the speculation about his state of mind seems silly, especially since he has been mercurial figure for his entire NBA career.
Kyrie has sat out fairly regularly against top competition. One of the things I like about him not being on the team is the shear amount of games he sits out due to any number of injuries. That may not be mentally weak but it isn’t strong.

I think players like Perk also see through all of his talk and bluster and imagine how they’d feel if he was on their team talking that away about him or his teammates. Kyrie only takes blame while also making himself look good or more important.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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Say what you will about Irving but the talk about him not being mentally tough is classic, old school, "good-face" stuff by people who likely don't know him well or at all (especially we basement dwellers). I mean, as Doris Burke says on the most recent Lowe Post, "Perk says lots of stuff" - he is doing so to pump up his reputation as a pundit. Its hard to take his views on this seriously.

Mentally weak people don't go to a top college program, get drafted number one then develop an elite handle and shooting skills and then become huge contributors to a championship even if sports radio takes tell you otherwise.

I don't like Kyrie Irving much and it seems clear that for his otherworldly basketball skills, he struggles with making those around him better. However the speculation about his state of mind seems silly, especially since he has been mercurial figure for his entire NBA career.
Definition of mercurial
(Entry 1 of 2)
1: of, relating to, or born under the planet Mercury
2: having qualities of eloquence, ingenuity, or thievishness attributed to the god Mercury or to the influence of the planet Mercury
3: characterized by rapid and unpredictable changeableness of mood

People are certainly taking the opportunity to pile on Kyrie, but it isn't really speculation at this point. He handles things in strange ways. Whether it be the story of him calling Kobe, in a bad mood, rather than celebrating with teammates after the Cavs' win, subsequently demanding his way off said championship caliber team, or even something as simple as the blowup at Hayward for the pass to Tatum last year, he doesn't always display a lot of mental fortitude with his reactions. His ego has certainly been on display more since asking out of Cleveland and not to good effect.
 

DeJesus Built My Hotrod

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Kyrie has sat out fairly regularly against top competition. One of the things I like about him not being on the team is the shear amount of games he sits out due to any number of injuries. That may not be mentally weak but it isn’t strong.

I think players like Perk also see through all of his talk and bluster and imagine how they’d feel if he was on their team talking that away about him or his teammates. Kyrie only takes blame while also making himself look good or more important.
I don't know who he has regularly sat against and I am sure we can go through his game logs. My problem isn't with the criticism of his talk, his apparent struggles with his teammates or even with his play. Those are entirely justified.

But calling a guy who is an elite athlete and competes/produces at a high level and who has won a ring mentally weak is kind of silly. I love and follow Perk - right now he is pumping out takes left and right as he continues to grind out an NBA pundit career. I am not sure that his takes are anything other than hot ones meant to appeal to a certain segment of the sports viewing audience.

Finally, I am not excusing Kyrie and its not beyond the pale that he doesn't want to deal with the return to Boston. But him being out tonight and the balance of their roadtrip suggests that his shoulder injury isn't just a convenient excuse to skip the Celtics game. I know others here disagree and think they know what is motivating the guy - I cannot possibly argue with that because I have no clue what is in Irving's mind. I strongly suspect that most people not named Kyrie Irving - and maybe even him too - don't know what he's really thinking.
 

PedrosRedGlove

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I don't know about that, he can be cagey but he also loves hearing himself talk, so we have some clues to go on:
There's a new interview by Joe Vardon in the Athletic. I don't have a subscription, but here's one summary:
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/nets/ny-kyrie-irving-kenny-atkinson-spencer-dinwiddie-20191102-t3kmsbimpjdq3mm4czxwvkz7sq-story.html
Like this quote:
“I think at this point in my career, it’s just about doing whatever is needed,” Irving said. “I understand how special I am with the basketball in my hands and being at the top tier of scoring, and I think that I am capable of doing so. I don’t mind showing it for the rest of the season. It’s not even so much an individual goal, it’s something that James [Harden] is asked to do for his team and it’s something I’m going to be asked to do for my team this year.
“If [Kevin Durant] was playing and on the court, it would probably be a little bit different. But you just understand that whatever the game needs, you just give it.”
Irving of course has apologized for his lapses in leadership while in Boston. The experience seems to have made him more thoughtful about the challenge.
“I think it’s just the realization that I’m going to be one of the leaders, regardless (of) whether I want to come out and say it or not,” Irving said. “That’s part of the responsibility of being one of the best players on the team, is really taking responsibility for gearing up the guys, or utilizing your experience, or utilizing your talent, not just for your own scoring or not just for defense, but for rallying the guys. It’s just, when you come out and say it, you put a lot more emphasis on it.”
 

InstaFace

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Y'all got some cask-strength haterade going on here. I am much closer to just not caring about Kyrie than I am to hating him. I mean I realize this thread is going to attract people who feel the opposite of that, which is fine. But it started as whimsical amusement and has gotten dark fast.
 

sox311

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That's what she said.
No matter the hate and how either side looks at it, watching some old Kyrie highlights, including the Milwaukee game 5 an others, and watching how the team played tonight even after losing Kemba and the last few games, what a difference and more enjoyable team to watch.

Kyrie is amazing to watch ISO, individually, but as a team and the results were/are just ugly. It's fun again to watch the team if you are a fan of basketball rather than just fancy dribbling and fade aways.
 

benhogan

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Y'all got some cask-strength haterade going on here. I am much closer to just not caring about Kyrie than I am to hating him. I mean I realize this thread is going to attract people who feel the opposite of that, which is fine. But it started as whimsical amusement and has gotten dark fast.
meh. It's sports, fans boo the opponent and cheer the home team. I think posters are joking about a proposed tribute video or Ky ducking out of next week's game. Pretty harmless

I actually think Perk's comments were stronger than most around here. or Rondo's thoughts on tribute videos are rather opinionated.

Not really seeing the strong hate or darkness by any poster? YMMV
 

lovegtm

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Say what you will about Irving but the talk about him not being mentally tough is classic, old school, "good-face" stuff by people who likely don't know him well or at all (especially we basement dwellers). I mean, as Doris Burke says on the most recent Lowe Post, "Perk says lots of stuff" - he is doing so to pump up his reputation as a pundit. Its hard to take his views on this seriously.

Mentally weak people don't go to a top college program, get drafted number one then develop an elite handle and shooting skills and then become huge contributors to a championship even if sports radio takes tell you otherwise.

I don't like Kyrie Irving much and it seems clear that for his otherworldly basketball skills, he struggles with making those around him better. However the speculation about his state of mind seems silly, especially since he has been mercurial figure for his entire NBA career.
There’s a difference between absolute and relative mental toughness. Kyrie is almost certainly in the 99th+ percentile relative to the population of the US, but (at least going on what he showed against MIL), it’s fair to say that he’s likely not in the upper echelon of NBA player mental toughness.
 

Light-Tower-Power

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I’m bummed for people who dropped a bunch of money for Wednesday. Day before Thanksgiving at the Garden is always fun but it isn’t $100+ a balcony seat fun without Kyrie. Always a gamble expecting Kyrie to play and I’m glad I didn’t pull the trigger.
 

Red Averages

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I’m bummed for people who dropped a bunch of money for Wednesday. Day before Thanksgiving at the Garden is always fun but it isn’t $100+ a balcony seat fun without Kyrie. Always a gamble expecting Kyrie to play and I’m glad I didn’t pull the trigger.
And no Hayward or Kemba....

Still worth it, this team is appointment TV again and the atmosphere will be fantastic.
 

DJnVa

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Dark? It's sports hate, so forgive me for having the Kyrie "hate" warm my heart as the weather turns cold.

The 3 games he's missing? It's not just Boston---it's also Cleveland and NY. That's fucking funny af.
 

lovegtm

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From Jay King’s new Athletic article:

The Celtics had stretches of great play, but they never lasted. Even so, their results did not necessarily determine Irving’s mood. The day after taking a 1-0 series lead on the Bucks, the Celtics held an optional practice in Milwaukee. At the time, they should have been flying high. After sweeping the Pacers in the first round, Marcus Morris had declared the Celtics were “not that same team” that stumbled through an uneven regular season. Then Irving collected 26 points and 11 assists to beat the Bucks 112-90 in the series opener. Boston won that game decisively enough on the road that Paul Pierce said on ESPN that he considered the series over.

While Celtics teammates worked out on the floor the next day, sources say Irving climbed into the stands and sat by himself. The practice was voluntary, but the way he disengaged himself — while his teammates put in work — struck observers.

“He was just disconnected,” said one witness.

Irving shot 30.1 percent the rest of the series as the Celtics dropped each of their next four games to tumble out of the playoffs. While Milwaukee clinched Game 5, the Boston star managed only 15 points and one assist on 6-for-21 shooting in the decisive game. Given the circumstances, it was one of the worst games of his career — and, damningly, it followed three similarly disjointed efforts. Irving ended his brief Celtics tenure by signing with the Nets two months later, a move he may have actually decided upon during the middle of Boston’s season. As early as March, one league source outside the Celtics locker room insisted Irving and Kevin Durant were headed to Brooklyn, and that source was proven right. Another Celtics source later put the situation this way: “It never helps when someone doesn’t want to be there.”
Pretty much every detail that has come out after the season has made Kyrie look worse, particularly when contrasted with Durant and Kawhi. They thought they were out the door, but still gave it their all.

At this point, “Kyrie was a fine teammate” is a hotter, less-substantiated take than “Kyrie was a cancer with a loser mentality.”
 

Eddie Jurak

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The Nets are 9-8.

Put differently, the Nets are 4-7 with Mr Chemistry in the lineup, 5-1 without him.

But his stats are phenomenal!
 

wade boggs chicken dinner

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From Jay King’s new Athletic article:



Pretty much every detail that has come out after the season has made Kyrie look worse, particularly when contrasted with Durant and Kawhi. They thought they were out the door, but still gave it their all.

At this point, “Kyrie was a fine teammate” is a hotter, less-substantiated take than “Kyrie was a cancer with a loser mentality.”
Wow. I don't have a Athletic subscription but we all remarked how, well, odd KI's play was after Game 1 of that series.

I can only imagine what he was thinking sitting in the stands that day. He certainly didn't, well, play his best afterwards.
 

lexrageorge

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The fact that Marcus Smart is quoted in that article speaks volumes. And Horford is on record saying he may have stayed had he known Kemba was coming on board (of course, it may not have been possible, but whatever). I've yet to see a former teammate defend Kyrie. And I think this was the first time I've heard Mike Gorman criticize a former member of the team.

Kyrie's defenders (I was one at one point) need to realize that there is way too much smoke around this fire.
 

lovegtm

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Wow. I don't have a Athletic subscription but we all remarked how, well, odd KI's play was after Game 1 of that series.

I can only imagine what he was thinking sitting in the stands that day. He certainly didn't, well, play his best afterwards.
It's really sad/frustrating as a Celtics fan. Basically the coaching staff had come up with a plan to stop Giannis, it worked well, and then Kyrie decided to check out mentally.

I can only speculate about his motivations for doing so (my right as a sports fan!), but I wonder whether he was surprised at how well Game 1 went, and subconsciously didn't want to lose his out to go to Brooklyn?

Obviously that would be a) utterly irrational in light of what Kawhi, LeBron, and others have done and b) total speculation, but it's pretty clear at this point that Kyrie is a really, really weird dude with strange internal processes.
 

InstaFace

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The fact that Marcus Smart is quoted in that article speaks volumes. And Horford is on record saying he may have stayed had he known Kemba was coming on board (of course, it may not have been possible, but whatever). I've yet to see a former teammate defend Kyrie. And I think this was the first time I've heard Mike Gorman criticize a former member of the team.

Kyrie's defenders (I was one at one point) need to realize that there is way too much smoke around this fire.
I think what's odd about it to me is just that there didn't appear any proximate cause of any tension or disconnect from Kyrie. The team wasn't losing. He wasn't injured. They had a demonstrably great coach. They had veteran leadership. Nobody was questioning that he was the alpha on the team. Kyrie kept on going out there and giving a good performance. There were no high-profile blow-ups (maybe Jaylen vs Marcus Morris? I forget. Whatever it was, it didn't involve Kyrie). Like all the stuff you normally see leading up to there being a major chemistry problem on a sports team, you just didn't see here.

Like, before convincing us whose fault it was that something happened, I almost feel like in this instance, there's a burden of proof that "something happened" in the first place, because I don't see the usual consequences of it. Other than Kyrie shooting us out of the series last year, and everyone looking absolutely dead and thinking about tee times the last two games of the series. And yet, people keep on writing articles and getting quotes about what a weird dude he is and how he kinda checked out or whatever, but I watched the whole season and aside from the team appearing to be less than the sum of its parts in terms of on-court results, there was nothing I could point to about "this is grotesque and wrong".

So I don't think it's so much "Kyrie defenders", as people who aren't understanding how the dots are connected. I get that a lot of people are saying that the team was less than the sum of its parts because of Kyrie, and that almost feels like too simplistic an answer given that there's 20 players and coaches who are principally responsible. But at the same time, the quotes and articles do keep piling up.
 

lexrageorge

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I think what's odd about it to me is just that there didn't appear any proximate cause of any tension or disconnect from Kyrie. The team wasn't losing. He wasn't injured. They had a demonstrably great coach. They had veteran leadership. Nobody was questioning that he was the alpha on the team. Kyrie kept on going out there and giving a good performance. There were no high-profile blow-ups (maybe Jaylen vs Marcus Morris? I forget. Whatever it was, it didn't involve Kyrie). Like all the stuff you normally see leading up to there being a major chemistry problem on a sports team, you just didn't see here.

Like, before convincing us whose fault it was that something happened, I almost feel like in this instance, there's a burden of proof that "something happened" in the first place, because I don't see the usual consequences of it. Other than Kyrie shooting us out of the series last year, and everyone looking absolutely dead and thinking about tee times the last two games of the series. And yet, people keep on writing articles and getting quotes about what a weird dude he is and how he kinda checked out or whatever, but I watched the whole season and aside from the team appearing to be less than the sum of its parts in terms of on-court results, there was nothing I could point to about "this is grotesque and wrong".

So I don't think it's so much "Kyrie defenders", as people who aren't understanding how the dots are connected. I get that a lot of people are saying that the team was less than the sum of its parts because of Kyrie, and that almost feels like too simplistic an answer given that there's 20 players and coaches who are principally responsible. But at the same time, the quotes and articles do keep piling up.
There was indeed a roster construction issue, but it was one that caught everyone (seriously, I mean everyone) by surprise. That problem wasn't really Kyrie's fault; he doesn't make trades. But I think it clearly caught him (and Ainge and Stevens) by surprise as well.

One of the underappreciated aspects of the 2017-18 Celtics was the ball movement, even when Kyrie was on the scene for the first 60 or so games. It's something we're seeing again this season. But go watch and you can see that the ball movement disappeared completely last season. I'm not sure how the lack of ball movement shows up in statistical metrics; Kyrie's assists per 36 minutes were a career high last season. But it was a real problem.

I think you may be missing some of the blowups that did happen last season. First, there was the game against the Magic in which Hayward ran the play that Stevens called and inbounded the ball to Tatum, who missed the shot at the buzzer. Kyrie was yelling at Hayward as they were going off the court. His "I ain't talking about next year" speech in NY came about 2 weeks later. Then he complained about his teammates to LeBron, basically throwing Tatum and Brown under the bus in the process, which really was a shitty thing to do. Basically, rather than stepping up and taking control of the fact that the roster was talented yet flawed, from that point forward he was moody and seemed even more determined to play hero ball.

Finally, there is the fact that the Celtics offense is only marginally worse than last season (14th to 15th in PPG, 10th to 11th in O-Rating), but the defense has improved significantly (going from 8th to 5th in PPGA and D-rating), despite having played nearly 50% more road games than home games in this young season.
 

lovegtm

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I think what's odd about it to me is just that there didn't appear any proximate cause of any tension or disconnect from Kyrie. The team wasn't losing. He wasn't injured. They had a demonstrably great coach. They had veteran leadership. Nobody was questioning that he was the alpha on the team. Kyrie kept on going out there and giving a good performance. There were no high-profile blow-ups (maybe Jaylen vs Marcus Morris? I forget. Whatever it was, it didn't involve Kyrie). Like all the stuff you normally see leading up to there being a major chemistry problem on a sports team, you just didn't see here.

Like, before convincing us whose fault it was that something happened, I almost feel like in this instance, there's a burden of proof that "something happened" in the first place, because I don't see the usual consequences of it. Other than Kyrie shooting us out of the series last year, and everyone looking absolutely dead and thinking about tee times the last two games of the series. And yet, people keep on writing articles and getting quotes about what a weird dude he is and how he kinda checked out or whatever, but I watched the whole season and aside from the team appearing to be less than the sum of its parts in terms of on-court results, there was nothing I could point to about "this is grotesque and wrong".

So I don't think it's so much "Kyrie defenders", as people who aren't understanding how the dots are connected. I get that a lot of people are saying that the team was less than the sum of its parts because of Kyrie, and that almost feels like too simplistic an answer given that there's 20 players and coaches who are principally responsible. But at the same time, the quotes and articles do keep piling up.
I agree that it's hard to know how the dots are connected.

As far as "did SOMETHING happen?", all we really know is:
1. Kyrie very, very likely had a plan to go to the Nets as early as January.
2. He played out the rest of the season sort of fine.
3. They whomped the Pacers, with Kyrie seemingly engaged.
4. The Celtics unleash a great gameplan and execution on Giannis in Game 1

at which point Kyrie proceeds to:
- disengage from the team in practice
- put up a historically bad 4 games of shooting
- completely abandon the defensive gameplan that was necessary to win the series, and started randomly calling to guard Giannis.

This was not normal. This was all weird as fuck.

I have no clue what happened, but unless something happened, the only conclusion I can draw is that Kyrie is literally (with no disrespect intended, and maybe some compassion) a very, very mentally ill individual.
 

DJnVa

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Then he complained about his teammates to LeBron, basically throwing Tatum and Brown under the bus in the process, which really was a shitty thing to do
The best (worst?) part of the Lebron call was that Kyrie told everyone about it and thought that it would go over well. In fact, I think I defended it at the time, but it was because I wanted that team to work so bad. But in hindsight it's obvious that call wouldn't go over well.

He wanted pats on the back for "apologizing" and had no idea how it would play with the teammates.
 

RetractableRoof

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I think that when we hear players speaking about other players, there needs to be a 'one of the brotherhood' filter. Shy of pure hatred, it doesn't make sense to blast a teammate on his way out the door - you never know when you'll be teammates with him again, or whatever. So in that context, players all saying polite things about any player leaving is to be expected (same with management right?). I think the inverse is not true though - you hear the Charlotte players being effusive in their praise for Kemba as he left the team, and creating personal tributes to him returning as a Celtic. So, maybe it's what Thumper's dad said.

That said, we also heard some good teammate things about Kryie that maybe don't have as much staying power, or get lost in the negative noise. Opening his personal shoe locker to Rozier, challenging the young guys to on court games that would benefit their handle, stuff like that. I think some of Smart's early comments after the departure were genuine. I'm as down on him as a "leader" as anyone, but still respect that he did in his own ways try to be the good teammate (inconsistently?). I don't think too highly of Lebron's leadership skills either (he was/is in an almost impossible position to be a good leader), and if that is who Irving saw as a role model in that regard - he was doomed to struggle as one.

Players who are as uber talented as Lebron, Kyrie, Durant, Kobe, etc. often find themselves in the limelight at an incredibly young age, without the off-court skills or preparation to be successful in the public eye. Knowing who to trust, who to take advice from, who to accept mentoring from, who in the organization to lean on, which existing friends are worth keeping, etc. Many of us have had the same issues, and we didn't mature in a fish bowl for the world to watch.

I'm glad the Celtics have essentially exchanged Walker for Irving. I think there will be game(s) where Kyrie would be able to win with his on court heroics that maybe Kemba can't. I get that. But I think the difference in their approach and the shadows they cast on their teammates leaves the Celtics in a better position with regard to the young players - and perhaps because of it, that game winning shot doesn't always happen with the ball in Walkers hands - perhaps it is 3 plays earlier, when one of the Js delivers successfully because of a higher confidence level a healthy locker room has fostered. If you asked me which player I want for one play with the Finals on the line, I'd be a fool to not select Irving. But maybe the team doesn't get to that last second shot in the playoffs if they have Kyrie. I know if I'm building a team that I want Kemba, for a number of reasons. I guess it's a "total cost of ownership" of a car kind of conversation. It's not just the up front stuff that matters, all the behind the scenes costs with maintenance, reliability, and such that matter - often more than the initial sticker price. I'm bummed that the roster management/limitations in exchanging the two players essentially cost them Baynes and Horford. For *this* year, that could be a big deal in terms of lost opportunity. Longer term, we'll see.
 

Kliq

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Mar 31, 2013
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I think that when we hear players speaking about other players, there needs to be a 'one of the brotherhood' filter. Shy of pure hatred, it doesn't make sense to blast a teammate on his way out the door - you never know when you'll be teammates with him again, or whatever. So in that context, players all saying polite things about any player leaving is to be expected (same with management right?). I think the inverse is not true though - you hear the Charlotte players being effusive in their praise for Kemba as he left the team, and creating personal tributes to him returning as a Celtic. So, maybe it's what Thumper's dad said.

That said, we also heard some good teammate things about Kryie that maybe don't have as much staying power, or get lost in the negative noise. Opening his personal shoe locker to Rozier, challenging the young guys to on court games that would benefit their handle, stuff like that. I think some of Smart's early comments after the departure were genuine. I'm as down on him as a "leader" as anyone, but still respect that he did in his own ways try to be the good teammate (inconsistently?). I don't think too highly of Lebron's leadership skills either (he was/is in an almost impossible position to be a good leader), and if that is who Irving saw as a role model in that regard - he was doomed to struggle as one.

Players who are as uber talented as Lebron, Kyrie, Durant, Kobe, etc. often find themselves in the limelight at an incredibly young age, without the off-court skills or preparation to be successful in the public eye. Knowing who to trust, who to take advice from, who to accept mentoring from, who in the organization to lean on, which existing friends are worth keeping, etc. Many of us have had the same issues, and we didn't mature in a fish bowl for the world to watch.

I'm glad the Celtics have essentially exchanged Walker for Irving. I think there will be game(s) where Kyrie would be able to win with his on court heroics that maybe Kemba can't. I get that. But I think the difference in their approach and the shadows they cast on their teammates leaves the Celtics in a better position with regard to the young players - and perhaps because of it, that game winning shot doesn't always happen with the ball in Walkers hands - perhaps it is 3 plays earlier, when one of the Js delivers successfully because of a higher confidence level a healthy locker room has fostered. If you asked me which player I want for one play with the Finals on the line, I'd be a fool to not select Irving. But maybe the team doesn't get to that last second shot in the playoffs if they have Kyrie. I know if I'm building a team that I want Kemba, for a number of reasons. I guess it's a "total cost of ownership" of a car kind of conversation. It's not just the up front stuff that matters, all the behind the scenes costs with maintenance, reliability, and such that matter - often more than the initial sticker price. I'm bummed that the roster management/limitations in exchanging the two players essentially cost them Baynes and Horford. For *this* year, that could be a big deal in terms of lost opportunity. Longer term, we'll see.
I don't have a problem with anything else you posted, but I did want to point out the bolded. Part of the issue is that Kyrie isn't as uber talented as LeBron, Durant, Kobe, etc. His conduct and attitude were writing checks that his playing ability couldn't cash. LeBron could get away with being an awkward teammate who subtweets them and has constantly been trying to shuffle them around because he is one of the best players of all time. Kyrie isn't at that level, so his act is/was going to wear thin.
 

RetractableRoof

tolerates intolerance
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Dec 1, 2003
3,836
Quincy, MA
I don't have a problem with anything else you posted, but I did want to point out the bolded. Part of the issue is that Kyrie isn't as uber talented as LeBron, Durant, Kobe, etc. His conduct and attitude were writing checks that his playing ability couldn't cash. LeBron could get away with being an awkward teammate who subtweets them and has constantly been trying to shuffle them around because he is one of the best players of all time. Kyrie isn't at that level, so his act is/was going to wear thin.
I agree with you there. It wasn't my intent to put them as peers - but to name extremely talented guys who faced heavy public scrutiny early. I should have grouped better.
 

joe dokes

Member
SoSH Member
Jul 18, 2005
30,243
I think that when we hear players speaking about other players, there needs to be a 'one of the brotherhood' filter. Shy of pure hatred, it doesn't make sense to blast a teammate on his way out the door - you never know when you'll be teammates with him again, or whatever. So in that context, players all saying polite things about any player leaving is to be expected (same with management right?). I think the inverse is not true though - you hear the Charlotte players being effusive in their praise for Kemba as he left the team, and creating personal tributes to him returning as a Celtic. So, maybe it's what Thumper's dad said.

That said, we also heard some good teammate things about Kryie that maybe don't have as much staying power, or get lost in the negative noise. Opening his personal shoe locker to Rozier, challenging the young guys to on court games that would benefit their handle, stuff like that. I think some of Smart's early comments after the departure were genuine. I'm as down on him as a "leader" as anyone, but still respect that he did in his own ways try to be the good teammate (inconsistently?). I don't think too highly of Lebron's leadership skills either (he was/is in an almost impossible position to be a good leader), and if that is who Irving saw as a role model in that regard - he was doomed to struggle as one.

Players who are as uber talented as Lebron, Kyrie, Durant, Kobe, etc. often find themselves in the limelight at an incredibly young age, without the off-court skills or preparation to be successful in the public eye. Knowing who to trust, who to take advice from, who to accept mentoring from, who in the organization to lean on, which existing friends are worth keeping, etc. Many of us have had the same issues, and we didn't mature in a fish bowl for the world to watch.


I'm glad the Celtics have essentially exchanged Walker for Irving. I think there will be game(s) where Kyrie would be able to win with his on court heroics that maybe Kemba can't. I get that. But I think the difference in their approach and the shadows they cast on their teammates leaves the Celtics in a better position with regard to the young players - and perhaps because of it, that game winning shot doesn't always happen with the ball in Walkers hands - perhaps it is 3 plays earlier, when one of the Js delivers successfully because of a higher confidence level a healthy locker room has fostered. If you asked me which player I want for one play with the Finals on the line, I'd be a fool to not select Irving. But maybe the team doesn't get to that last second shot in the playoffs if they have Kyrie. I know if I'm building a team that I want Kemba, for a number of reasons. I guess it's a "total cost of ownership" of a car kind of conversation. It's not just the up front stuff that matters, all the behind the scenes costs with maintenance, reliability, and such that matter - often more than the initial sticker price. I'm bummed that the roster management/limitations in exchanging the two players essentially cost them Baynes and Horford. For *this* year, that could be a big deal in terms of lost opportunity. Longer term, we'll see.
This is the best take on the Kyrie era I've seen.

To the bolded.....as some guy said in 1939, "I'm not a bad man; I'm just a bad wizard."
 

Big John

New Member
Dec 9, 2016
2,086
I'll say again what I said many months ago. Kyrie's problem has very little to do with his leadership qualities or his personality. His problem is that he is a selfish player ON the court. The team's entire offense has to revolve around him, but at the same time he expects his teammates to cover for him on defense. It is no wonder that guys like Jaylen Brown did not enjoy playing with him. I don't know why none of the so-called experts are willing to say that, while Kyrie is flashy as hell and unquestionably talented, he's just not that effective.

When you add Kyrie's selfishness to that of Morris and Rozier, both of whom were playing for their next contract, it's no wonder that last year's team underperformed.
 
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Gash Prex

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 18, 2002
6,828
I was wrong, Kyrie was terrible for the Celtics and really stunted the young players growth. He was not what was needed and we are extremely lucky that Kemba came to the Celtics.
 

ifmanis5

Member
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Sep 29, 2007
63,777
Rotten Apple
Ainge admits the team didn't gel last year and if he had it to do over again he would have made some deals: https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/28169512/celtics-danny-ainge-more-roster-moves-needed-last-season

"It just didn't mesh," Ainge said. "You know, it just didn't, and I knew, and we talked about it."

Ultimately, Ainge said he refrained from trading any players last season because, after an uneven start, the team entered the All-Star break 37-21.

"So that's why I didn't do any deals, but in hindsight, you know, I would," Ainge told ESPN.
 

reggiecleveland

sublime
Lifetime Member
SoSH Member
Mar 5, 2004
27,958
Saskatoon Canada
Smart's comment's are quite thoughtful. He discusses stress that took the team down without directly pointing a finger. Seems he was saying, last year didn't work, so far this year has. Team chemistry is elusive and hard to find at times.
 

DJnVa

Dorito Dawg
SoSH Member
Dec 16, 2010
53,850
That's as close as you'll see Danny get to saying, "I should have given up on Anthony Davis and traded Kyrie to the Knicks for a bunch of firsts".
Yeah.

Although the Knicks might still fall for it.
 

lovegtm

Member
SoSH Member
Apr 30, 2013
12,001
View: https://twitter.com/StoolGreenie/status/1199489777067810816?s=20


It’s really crazy when you see all the clips together, and makes you how annoying his subtweeting must have been, especially since we only see the public side. The calling LeBron one is worse than I had recalled.

Remember, we’re talking about a guy who quite literally has done nothing of note in his career when not playing with maybe the greatest player ever. And he’s talking about guys who led a team to within a heartbeat of the Finals in their age 20 and 21 seasons.
 

Red Averages

owes you $50
SoSH Member
Apr 20, 2003
9,058
Didn't expect to be all fired up at 8:17am, but here we are. They won't do it obviously, but it would absolutely cause the crowd to go insane if they played something like that pregame. The 15 year vet comment is especially astounding, given they had Al Horford as the rock (12 year vet). So not only was he condescending to the younger players, but he was not even respecting his elders.

Kemba probable for tonight. Going to be lots of Kemba's better and where is Kyrie? chants I suspect.