National Celtics discourse

ragnarok725

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What's especially interesting, to me at least, about the Luka defense discourse is that all of his faults are completely self-inflicted. It's all effort and conditioning. It's kind of remarkable that he gets such a pass from the media (IE Lowe saying "5 times down the floor, he will stonewall his opponent, thats good!!") when he has the physical and mental capability to be a good defender if he really wanted to
Don't know how far we want to go down this road in this thread, but... anyone have any guess why conditioning and laziness is such a big talking point with Zion? Or why it was with Shaq back in the day? And why it isn't with Luka?
 

jezza1918

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Don't know how far we want to go down this road in this thread, but... anyone have any guess why conditioning and laziness is such a big talking point with Zion? Or why it was with Shaq back in the day? And why it isn't with Luka?
I feel like Ive heard a ton of discussion about Luka's conditioning over the past few years admittedly not as much as Zion (I cant speak to the Shaq stuff). I realize there may be other factors at play, "further down the road" so to speak, but Im wondering if Luka's conditioning isn't discussed as much simply because he plays a lot more? In his 2nd year he played 61 games, but otherwise has been between 65-71. Combined with playoffs he's played a total of 447 games in his 6 years. Zion is at 184 over 4 seasons.
 

Euclis20

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Don't know how far we want to go down this road in this thread, but... anyone have any guess why conditioning and laziness is such a big talking point with Zion? Or why it was with Shaq back in the day? And why it isn't with Luka?
For Zion, it's easy - he's missed over 200 games in his 5 year career, and has never played in the playoffs (even though his team has been there twice since he was drafted). His career has been a giant disappointment thus far, and it's clearly some combination of conditioning, laziness, injury and bad luck (the reports about him haven't been great). It'd be one thing if he were Greg Oden who only looked ok when he played, but Zion plays like a top 20 player (with a higher ceiling than that) when he's actually on the court. No one would ever call Luka's career disappointing, even with his fairly large flaws.

Shaq, I can't say. I remember him getting hit for not focusing on basketball and not taking his body seriously, but I don't know exactly how early that started. When he was Luka's age, he had just finished his first season in LA (and had been to the finals already with Orlando).
 

Kliq

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After the great Russell Westrbook debates of the 2010s, I thought we were all past the discussion point of triple doubles equaling greatness, but man I see a lot of people basically saying that Luka got a triple double so he really couldn't be doing any more to help his team win.
 

Batman Likes The Sox

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I don’t really enjoy Luka as a player and agree with most everything being raised here but it’s not like if Luka suddenly became Jrue on defense for the rest of the series that it would make a tremendous difference. He’s still playing with a playoff ghost and several random dudes. Dallas isn’t the team this year.
 

lars10

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A little bit of a pile on the Luka train but he is also one to make sure his injuries are known. Don’t love Rusillo all the time but he did have a funny line that Luka “doesn’t just wear his injuries on his sleeve but on a stove pot hat”.
When Luka made two of his one footed threes.. he hopped up and down on one leg with his hands in the air.. perhaps that was him showing us he was injured with an homage to the karate kid? ;)
 

reggiecleveland

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Don't know how far we want to go down this road in this thread, but... anyone have any guess why conditioning and laziness is such a big talking point with Zion? Or why it was with Shaq back in the day? And why it isn't with Luka?
Shaq was pilloried far more when he was making terrible movies and rapping. Kobe publically shamed him for being out of shape and as we have seen the public forgave Kobe for stuff, more than Shaq. Zion is a physical freak and may have the best vertical jump recorded by an NBA player so criticizing the physical prep of perhaps the best athlete ever would have been out of place. The sharp decline from a Kryptonian to Big Baby Davis (an exaggeration for effect) was alarming. I will go as far to say if Shaq had an above average work ethic he would be the undisputed GOAT right now. I am on record as anti-Kobe, but Shaq did everything to make peace, except work out more. People, coaches, reporters, hate the talented guy who doesn't train (unless he hit homers for the Yankees then he was just colorful) as squandering talent.

The reverse is true of American stars, Bird, Kobe, MJ, Magic, KD, Curry, were routinely praised for their off season effort. NBA has a bit followed the NHL narrative Americans are tough and physical Euros are smart and skilled.

There is an easy narrative that Euro players are skilled, smart, savants and not physical phenoms, or particularly tough. In hockey it is rare for Euro players to get credit for being physically tough. I don't think Genobli, Dirk, the Gasols, were ever praised for being in great shape, just for skill and creativity.

In a way this attitude is reflected in reality of the two types of basketball. American ball is fast paced aggressive dunk on somebody or find the three. You better be guarding the ball and blowing by guys or dunking and protecting the rim. Each of us can probably know a big kid who went to the next level just by getting in shape. The FIBA game is fast too, but based on passing, and the big guys are more skilled. Defence is more physical so strength can make up for lack of foot speed.
 

Auger34

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Isn’t Lee considered the better Head Coaching prospect? There is a reason why Lee is Mazzulla’s lead assistant and not Cassell. I don’t know the reason I’m not in the room but there’s reasons I’m sure.
Well, Lee actually got hired as a head coach by the Hornets, so af least one organization thought he was a much better prospect
 

Euclis20

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Isn’t Lee considered the better Head Coaching prospect? There is a reason why Lee is Mazzulla’s lead assistant and not Cassell. I don’t know the reason I’m not in the room but there’s reasons I’m sure.
The only reason Lee wouldn't be considered a better HC prospect is because...he's no longer a prospect. The Hornets hired him 5 weeks ago.

*edit - a beat too slow.

We're gonna have to remain this thread if things continue the way they are. "National Tatum discourse" seems a logical next step.
 

RorschachsMask

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I wasn’t even the person who made the initial coaches statement lol. I just said Cassell as a half joke, I assumed he was talking about Cora.
 

HomeRunBaker

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The only reason Lee wouldn't be considered a better HC prospect is because...he's no longer a prospect. The Hornets hired him 5 weeks ago.

*edit - a beat too slow.

We're gonna have to remain this thread if things continue the way they are. "National Tatum discourse" seems a logical next step.
I know this and Cassell is gone after The Finals too. I was referring to at the start of the season with Lee > Cassell and Lee being the top Asst.
 

Auger34

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I know this and Cassell is gone after The Finals too. I was referring to at the start of the season with Lee > Cassell and Lee being the top Asst.
wait, why is Cassell gone? It doesn’t look like he’s getting a head coaching job anywhere
 

snowmanny

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There's really only one storyline left...If Boston wins Friday does Luka pass Shaq as having the greatest Finals performance ever for a team that is swept?
 

TomRicardo

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It is amazing the floodgates of people trying to get around the narratives now. Luka is getting murdered on the Ringer Live. Cowherd is claiming Brown and Tatum are top ten players in the league, comparing Brown to D Wade. It is amazing flipping around and seeing Boston finally getting their flowers.

Edit - Everyone is hitting on the maybe the Mavs were lucky to get here not the Celtics.
 

lexrageorge

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It is amazing the floodgates of people trying to get around the narratives now. Luka is getting murdered on the Ringer Live. Cowherd is claiming Brown and Tatum are top ten players in the league, comparing Brown to D Wade. It is amazing flipping around and seeing Boston finally getting their flowers.

Edit - Everyone is hitting on the maybe the Mavs were lucky to get here not the Celtics.
It's going to take nothing less than a title to change the narrative around this Celtics team. Evidence is coming in that the narrative will indeed change overnight if they bring out the brooms on Friday.
 

Auger34

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That was incredible. Finally someone called him a moron for trying to draw a charge with 5 fouls.
Damn, he went after him in a way I haven’t heard any media member do.

Basically called him a baby who is costing his team with his attitude and demeanor towards refs. Said that coaches and team execs have begged him to change the way he acts.

Said that complaining about the refs when he’s the one who is making dumb decisions shows he’s not ready to be a champion. Also mentioned that his effort on defense is pathetic and isn’t championship worthy.
 

Auger34

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SVP after the break
“I still can’t get over Windhorst just taking a blow torch to Luka”
 

Ed Hillel

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That had all the makings of Adam Silver going up to Windhorst and telling him to do that. The money gesture cannot have gone over well, and Windhorst brought up some "secret" info about the league having begged him to stop the shit on numerous occasions.
 

Auger34

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That had all the makings of Adam Silver going up to Windhorst and telling him to do that. The money gesture cannot have gone over well, and Windhorst brought up some "secret" info about the league having begged him to stop the shit on numerous occasions.
He said the team has been begging him to do that, as in the Mavericks.
 

BringBackMo

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Damn, he went after him in a way I haven’t heard any media member do.

Basically called him a baby who is costing his team with his attitude and demeanor towards refs. Said that coaches and team execs have begged him to change the way he acts.

Said that complaining about the refs when he’s the one who is making dumb decisions shows he’s not ready to be a champion. Also mentioned that his effort on defense is pathetic and isn’t championship worthy.
Fuck these front running NBA writers. Every one of them knew this shit about Luka’s defense and what his team thinks about his antics before this series started. But it’s not until the Mavs and Luka get curb stomped that they’re willing to say it.
 

JCizzle

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Fuck these front running NBA writers. Every one of them knew this shit about Luka’s defense and what his team thinks about his antics before this series started. But it’s not until the Mavs and Luka get curb stomped that they’re willing to say it.
The Mavs getting swept combined with someone in the national media finally taking him to task may actually prevent the auto MVP he was about to get next year.
 

TomRicardo

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That had all the makings of Adam Silver going up to Windhorst and telling him to do that. The money gesture cannot have gone over well, and Windhorst brought up some "secret" info about the league having begged him to stop the shit on numerous occasions.
There is a real chance Luka is not playing Game 4. I am sure the Mavs will be suggested to tell him the ribs are no good. Otherwise me might see the quickest foul out in NBA history if he doesn't get two techs before six fouls. After getting away with the take tackle and making the refs look like assholes the whole game for not Ting him... I think they had enough
 

BringBackMo

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The Mavs getting swept combined with someone in the national media finally taking him to task may actually prevent the auto MVP he was about to get next year.
I agree. This is definitely one of those narrative shifting moments.
 

lovegtm

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Damn, he went after him in a way I haven’t heard any media member do.

Basically called him a baby who is costing his team with his attitude and demeanor towards refs. Said that coaches and team execs have begged him to change the way he acts.

Said that complaining about the refs when he’s the one who is making dumb decisions shows he’s not ready to be a champion. Also mentioned that his effort on defense is pathetic and isn’t championship worthy.
Fwiw, Haralabob has been saying some negative things about Luka on Twitter for awhile, and he was obviously quite close to the situation.
 

The_Powa_of_Seiji_Ozawa

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There is a real chance Luka is not playing Game 4. I am sure the Mavs will be suggested to tell him the ribs are no good. Otherwise me might see the quickest foul out in NBA history if he doesn't get two techs before six fouls. After getting away with the take tackle and making the refs look like assholes the whole game for not Ting him... I think they had enough
The correct move from Dallas' POV is to bench him because of the "injury he has been playing through, which has clearly affected his performance on defense" or some other bullshit in a lame attempt to make more excuses for the losses.
 

lars10

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That play by Luka was Zinedine Zidane level stupidity.
Zidane had a lot more to back it up though.. and in fairness, as I recall, the guy he head butted said a slur about his mom or sister who had just passed... after fouling the shit out of him.
 

lovegtm

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I can't get over how just a week ago it was gospel with this same media that he was the #2-4 player in the league, and you were a blaspheming heretic if you even mentioned Golden Boy's defense.